Black Panther Spoiler Topic -- because someone had to do it

[The Anti-Targ]

Is it fair to compare Wonder Woman and Black Panther? In some ways it is, and in some ways it isn't. In terms of both movies attempting to give representation to a demographic that isn't heroic white men the comparison seems to be reasonable.

Does Black Panther almost eclipsing Wonder Woman's entire US box office gross in just 10 days say anything about either movie in this regard? Is Black Panther a more effective infiltration of the heroic white man domination than Wonder Woman was?

Did the lone white man who was the person who's skills and determination was really the true saviour from disaster (prevented Wakandan weapons tech from leaving Wakanda) detract from African empowerment vibe in the movie? Even with T'Challa defeating Killmonger, if one of those craft had managed to deliver Wakandan weapons to the intended group, that would be the end of Wakandan control over the manner and extent of release to the world of Wakandan tech and it wouldn't matter too much that T'Challa defeated Killmonger in the end. So, Bilbo Baggins saves the world, while T'Challa just regains his throne?

Sure, with a cooler head in charge of Vibranium reserves, even with Wakanda tech out in the world there is not much opportunity to mass produce Vibranium based tech outside Wakanda. But once people have their hands on the tech, the first thing people would try to do is find a workaround to develop an equivalent, or a reasonable alternative, that doesn't rely on Vibranium. If Wakanda can churn out 1000 of the original Vibranium product, but someone else can churn out 100,000 of a substitute that is 75% as good as the Vibranium tech then the advantage goes to the substitute product. Quantity has a quality of its own.

And since Vibranium came via a meteor it means there is more out there to potentially be mined. (A bit like iridium IRL, there's more Iridium in meteorites and asteroids than there is in mineable resources on Earth.) Wakanda's strangle hold on Vibranium resources is going to come to an end soon, I would think. You can imagine that there will be a great deal of commercial interest in trying to scan the solar system for sources of Vibranium. Is it in Wakanda's best interests to start selling reasonable amounts of raw Vibranium, and let other countries get into researching Vibranium tech, but maintain a tight grip on it's own tech so as to stay ahead of the research curve? Trying to control the resource is probably counter-productive.

[fionwe1987]

While I enjoyed Wonder Woman except for the last 30 minutes, I think what makes Black Panther so much better at representation is that it does shy away from the implications of a powerful group of Africans with access to amazing technology. As it addresses race issues head on, it ends up making a more powerful statement about representation.

Wonder Woman doesn't exactly ignore the status of early 20th century women, but it mostly plays it for laughs, with Wonder Woman's fish out of water scenes in the clothing stores, etc.

Given that DC reportedly wanted to cut out the "No Man's Land" scene, the best part of Wonder Woman, I don't think it is hard to realize that DC failed where Marvel succeeded because they didn't want to focus on any issues in the movie, as much as they wanted a woman lead in a traditional superhero movie.

Imagine a Wonder Woman movie where the focus was the Suffragette movement in the UK. Imagine Wonder Woman dealing head on with the guilt of knowing the Amazons kept themselves locked away while women suffered, and continue to suffer, atrocities in the real world. 

There's actually a Wonder Woman storyline that plays very close to the Black Panther storyline that was explored in the Justice League cartoon, IIRC. The Amazons take in a girl who crash lands in their island from a war torn land. She hates men for what they did to her family and uses her training to try and kill all men. 

They could have refined that story and made a much better Wonder Woman movie. I certainly hope the sequel learns from Black Panther and addresses Diana's interactions with the women's movement head on.

[mormont]

13 hours ago, williamjm said:

I think it could have been more interesting if he'd had similar motivations but hadn't had such an obvious Evil Plan, there's no question that T'Challa in the right here, if there had been a genuine debate about the future of Wakanda then that might have given the plot a bit more depth.

There was such a debate, though, between Nakia and T'Challa.

Erik has to take a position that makes him an antagonist, so his view on Wakandan isolationism is similar to Nakia's, but his solutions are radically different. He's angry and bitter, with no plan but to wreak havoc. That comes from his background and training: Ross highlights it at one point. Nakia represents a similar critique of Wakandan isolationism, but with a more constructive reaction. And that makes sense. While Erik's job was to overthrow regimes, to come in as an outsider and to wreck shit, Nakia's job as a spy was to blend in with the local populace and understand them. 

[Myrddin]

13 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Is it fair to compare Wonder Woman and Black Panther? In some ways it is, and in some ways it isn't. In terms of both movies attempting to give representation to a demographic that isn't heroic white men the comparison seems to be reasonable.

Does Black Panther almost eclipsing Wonder Woman's entire US box office gross in just 10 days say anything about either movie in this regard? Is Black Panther a more effective infiltration of the heroic white man domination than Wonder Woman was?

The difference in box office may be attributed more to Marvel vs DC than Female vs Minority Hero.

But both are solid movies, so they both succeed in proving that the general public will go see good movies with heroes from all demographics. 

 

ETA: If you think about it, BP also excels in that all the female characters are strong independent and well rounded characters in their own right. T'Challa is surrounded by strong women (not just his personal guard).

[kuenjato]

Black Panther is a more dynamic, self-assured film, the latest entry of a 15-film franchise that has been incredibly successful, really on a scale never seen in history.

Wonder Woman was a fairly-modest film (in scope) following a movie regarded as a complete artistic disaster, one that would go one to severely curtail the profits of its direct sequel. WW isn't really that great of a film--it closely resembles the first Captain America film, for better and worse--but it was light and fun in a summer season full of flops, in a relatively dark period considering political discourse (threats of war, open displays of incompetence, etc.).

The optics are fairly obvious.

[The Anti-Targ]

10 hours ago, Myrddin said:

The difference in box office may be attributed more to Marvel vs DC than Female vs Minority Hero.

But both are solid movies, so they both succeed in proving that the general public will go see good movies with heroes from all demographics. 

 

ETA: If you think about it, BP also excels in that all the female characters are strong independent and well rounded characters in their own right. T'Challa is surrounded by strong women (not just his personal guard).

Though Wakanda is still a patriarchal system, so could do with a bit of reforming. There's something a bit Harem-ish about a king having an all female personal protection force, albeit without any sexual connotations, but still it represents a kind of glass ceiling of sorts. Individual women can rise to positions of prominence and influence, but women as a whole are not equal partners in the governing of Wakanda.

Britain has just, finally, changed it's succession laws to make the king (or queen's) first born as 1st in line for the throne, as opposed to first born male. Wakanda should do the same for Monarch as well as Black Panther. Who would argue that, for instance, either Nakia or Okoye would not make good Black Panthers? They have the skills, and the Heart Shaped Herb will confer super strength on whomever consumes it. They only problem, potentially, is the challenge ritual in which it wold be very difficult to a woman to beat a man when their fighting skill is equal. Therefore that ritual should be abandoned.

[RumHam]

34 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Though Wakanda is still a patriarchal system, so could do with a bit of reforming.

Do we actually know this about the MCU version of Wakanda? It's not like he had an older sister who was passed over. 

[The Anti-Targ]

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

Do we actually know this about the MCU version of Wakanda? It's not like he had an older sister who was passed over. 

The movie hints at Wakanda being a bit more woke, with Okoye(?) telling Nakia she should challenge Killmonger. Not really sure how that would work, since isn't her tribal head the lip-plate guy? Who has the right to challenge for the throne seems a bit vague for the MCU. Don't know how fleshed out it is in the comics..

[dbunting]

4 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Though Wakanda is still a patriarchal system, so could do with a bit of reforming. There's something a bit Harem-ish about a king having an all female personal protection force, albeit without any sexual connotations, but still it represents a kind of glass ceiling of sorts. Individual women can rise to positions of prominence and influence, but women as a whole are not equal partners in the governing of Wakanda.

Britain has just, finally, changed it's succession laws to make the king (or queen's) first born as 1st in line for the throne, as opposed to first born male. Wakanda should do the same for Monarch as well as Black Panther. Who would argue that, for instance, either Nakia or Okoye would not make good Black Panthers? They have the skills, and the Heart Shaped Herb will confer super strength on whomever consumes it. They only problem, potentially, is the challenge ritual in which it wold be very difficult to a woman to beat a man when their fighting skill is equal. Therefore that ritual should be abandoned.

You talk about the path to reform but by taking a step sideways not forward. Why can only the current ruling class/families be King (in charge)? Why not vote on who deserves it most?

[Kalbear]

On 2/27/2018 at 8:25 PM, dbunting said:

You talk about the path to reform but by taking a step sideways not forward. Why can only the current ruling class/families be King (in charge)? Why not vote on who deserves it most?

Talked a lot about the 'problems' with this movie with my wife, which I don't see as problems, merely illustrations.

For all of its technological advancement, Wakanda is a country deeply set in traditional ways. They are insular and have been for thousands of years, they have a patriarchy with a single lineage, they have ritual melee combat to determine the ruler of their nation, they have familial leaders of tribes as their secondary leadership. 

Why?

Because tradition is hard to deal with and change, especially when things are going well for you. 

Why didn't they make Black Panther suits for everyone? Because only the king is the Black Panther.

Why does the Dora Milaje use spears instead of automatic weapons? Because they traditionally don't. 

Why is T'Chaka killing his brother such a horrible thing? Because fratricide - especially to protect a non-royal - is a traditionally horrifying thing. 

Why can Erik just come on in and randomly challenge for the throne? Because of tradition. 

And this isn't some kind of oversight; it's simply pointing out that traditionalism, conservatism - these things bind and control everyone, in subtle and overt ways. And without some kind of forcing requirement for change - famine, war, enemies, allies, etc - people don't want to change particularly heavily. 

[HokieStone]

Saw the movie over the weekend, and while I liked it quite a bit, I think it was a bit hard to live up to all the hype.  I found a lot of the fight scenes a bit hard to follow as they were dark.  The fight in the jungle, at night in Seoul, and the final fight with two guys in Black Panther suits in a dark underground cave.  That's a minor nitpick, though.

I do find the fact that the rest of the world believes Wakanda to "only" be a backwards 3rd world country a bit of a stretch.  I say that given the fact that T'Challa hasn't been subtle about the fact that he's the guy running around in the Black Panther suit - which is obviously high tech.  I just rewatched the "chase" scene in Civil War, and at the end of it, he, Cap and Bucky are surrounded by dozens of armed soldiers, and just pops off his mask.  And my memory might betray me a bit since I've only seen it once, but one thing I recall thinking was that he sure did have his mask "disappear" a lot - even in Seoul. 

Given this, I would think most of the world's governments - or at least those with significant intelligence capabilities - would know that the crown prince - now King - of Wakanda is running around in a suit that appears technically level with - or even superior than - Tony Stark's Iron Man suits.

[Corvinus85]

Just now, HokieStone said:

Saw the movie over the weekend, and while I liked it quite a bit, I think it was a bit hard to live up to all the hype.  I found a lot of the fight scenes a bit hard to follow as they were dark.  The fight in the jungle, at night in Seoul, and the final fight with two guys in Black Panther suits in a dark underground cave.  That's a minor nitpick, though.

I do find the fact that the rest of the world believes Wakanda to "only" be a backwards 3rd world country a bit of a stretch.  I say that given the fact that T'Challa hasn't been subtle about the fact that he's the guy running around in the Black Panther suit - which is obviously high tech.  I just rewatched the "chase" scene in Civil War, and at the end of it, he, Cap and Bucky are surrounded by dozens of armed soldiers, and just pops off his mask.  And my memory might betray me a bit since I've only seen it once, but one thing I recall thinking was that he sure did have his mask "disappear" a lot - even in Seoul. 

Given this, I would think most of the world's governments - or at least those with significant intelligence capabilities - would know that the crown prince - now King - of Wakanda is running around in a suit that appears technically level with - or even superior than - Tony Stark's Iron Man suits.

Right, but the plot of BP takes place about a week after the plot of Civil War, so if all the previous Panthers were able to relatively keep the secret of Wakanda, then the rest of the world is still putting 2 & 2 together probably. Frost, who is CIA, didn't know fully what Wakanda is until he got there.

[Rhom]

1 hour ago, Corvinus said:

Right, but the plot of BP takes place about a week after the plot of Civil War, so if all the previous Panthers were able to relatively keep the secret of Wakanda, then the rest of the world is still putting 2 & 2 together probably. Frost, who is CIA, didn't know fully what Wakanda is until he got there.

I generally agree with this... but its a bit at odds with Tony's "OH SHIT" reaction in AoU when they first discover that Klaue had stolen from Wakanda and it is revealed that they all seem to know that Wakanda is where Vibranium comes from.

I'm willing to write that off as a statement from a movie further back in the franchise and before they really knew what they would be doing with BP.

[williamjm]

19 minutes ago, Rhom said:

I generally agree with this... but its a bit at odds with Tony's "OH SHIT" reaction in AoU when they first discover that Klaue had stolen from Wakanda and it is revealed that they all seem to know that Wakanda is where Vibranium comes from.

I got the impression in BP that it was widely known that Vibranium came from Wakanda but what they didn't know was that they had a vast stockpile of it - that's what Frost seems surprised by when he's interrogating Klaue.

[RumHam]

1 hour ago, HokieStone said:

I do find the fact that the rest of the world believes Wakanda to "only" be a backwards 3rd world country a bit of a stretch.  I say that given the fact that T'Challa hasn't been subtle about the fact that he's the guy running around in the Black Panther suit - which is obviously high tech.  I just rewatched the "chase" scene in Civil War, and at the end of it, he, Cap and Bucky are surrounded by dozens of armed soldiers, and just pops off his mask.  And my memory might betray me a bit since I've only seen it once, but one thing I recall thinking was that he sure did have his mask "disappear" a lot - even in Seoul. 

I thought it was funny that that Okoye just told those women they rescued not to talk about the Black Panther saving them or the crazy spaceship they saw. I mean a Men in Black style memory eraser would have been a bit out there, but how has any of this stayed secret for so long.

It's also mildly weird how T'Chaka seemed to be bringing Wakanda out of isolation and started helping other nations in Civil War, but then "should we do that thing we were already doing" is a major argument during this movie. Though T'Chaka was doing it without revealing how advanced they were. 

But the weirdest thing has to be the vibranium meteor. Since the material preserves and release kinetic energy, it should have just bounced off the earth like cap's shield bouncing off a wall. 

7 minutes ago, williamjm said:

I got the impression in BP that it was widely known that Vibranium came from Wakanda but what they didn't know was that they had a vast stockpile of it - that's what Frost seems surprised by when he's interrogating Klaue.

FYI it's Ross, not Frost. Which reminds me I've been meaning to ask if he's related to Betty Ross and her dad the secretary of state. 

 

[williamjm]

6 minutes ago, RumHam said:

FYI it's Ross, not Frost. Which reminds me I've been meaning to ask if he's related to Betty Ross and her dad the secretary of state.

I think I mostly just thought of him as Martin Freeman throughout the film, so when the previous post said his name was Frost I believed it (although I do remember now that it was Ross).

[Starkess]

Although the parts we do see look very patriarchal, with kings replaced kings, I got the impression that technically there was no reason a woman couldn't challenge. During the first challenge scene, the champions appear to be standing with their tribal heads, and Nakia looks like the one from her tribe. And when Shuri raises her hand there was a gasp as it seemed like she would try to challenge.

That being said, it seems to be patriarchal in practice and any system that relies on hand-to-hand combat is going to have an intrinsic bias against women.

[Leofric]

2 hours ago, williamjm said:

I got the impression in BP that it was widely known that Vibranium came from Wakanda but what they didn't know was that they had a vast stockpile of it - that's what Frost seems surprised by when he's interrogating Klaue.

Also, Ultron even mentioned that humanity, (outside of the Wakandans obviously), had very little idea of the potential uses for Vibranium, he scoffed that they wasted it making a frisbee for Captain America.    Mostly they just knew it had unusual properties.   So even if there were questions about the BP having superior technology they might not have made the connection to Vibranium.

[HokieStone]

6 hours ago, Corvinus said:

Right, but the plot of BP takes place about a week after the plot of Civil War, so if all the previous Panthers were able to relatively keep the secret of Wakanda, then the rest of the world is still putting 2 & 2 together probably. Frost, who is CIA, didn't know fully what Wakanda is until he got there.

Fair point - I'd forgotten that it picks up almost immediately after Civil War. 

[The BlackBear]

It seems to be T'Chaka convinced the world that Klaue stole almost all of it. And I suppose it is plausible, that impoverished countries can have a relatively rich monarchy. If Vibranium is as versatile as we're led to believe, maybe the Black Panther suit doesn't seem that impressive. Caps Shield is well known about, and no one really comments on that.