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So what are the Westeros equivalents to ranks in the English aristocracy?


Angel Eyes

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Roughly that might be the case. However, it is completely unclear what kind of authority the lords who actually command bannermen do have over those people. Is it mainly a jurisdictional thing (like is implied for Lord Rowan in the case of Lady Webber vs. Ser Eustace Osgrey) or do they act as an effective stand-in for the king?

It is pretty clear that the formal royal dynasties of Stark, Lannister, and Arryn have more prestige and do command the hearts and souls of more of their vassals than, say, the Tullys or Tyrells, but we don't really know where informal power begins and legal power stops. The powerlessness of the Tullys and the Tyrells to command their bannermen during the Dance, say, shows how little power those houses can actually have under certain conditions.

And then you have also to consider the whole Warden system - which grants special powers to the Lannisters, Starks, Arryns, and Tyrells.

Realistically speaking, a powerful lord is simply a power in his own right. We see this best with Walder Frey. He can pick and choose whether to support the Tullys/Starks or the Iron Throne, indicating that from the POV of the king the lords are all beholden to serve him first, especially if one of the great houses sat above said lord is committing treason or inciting a rebellion.

We see this also when certain Stormlords, Riverlords, and Lords of the Vale sided with Aerys II rather than the rebels during the Rebellion.

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To give a perspective, would Rickard Karstark, as a leading banner man for House Stark, be the Earl of Karhold? Or Randyll Tarly the Earl of Horn Hill? Would a son of a Lord Paramount hold a title in his own right, i.e. Edward Plantagenet, son of Richard, Duke of York, who was Earl of March before becoming King Edward IV?

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2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

To give a perspective, would Rickard Karstark, as a leading banner man for House Stark, be the Earl of Karhold? Or Randyll Tarly the Earl of Horn Hill? Would a son of a Lord Paramount hold a title in his own right, i.e. Edward Plantagenet, son of Richard, Duke of York, who was Earl of March before becoming King Edward IV?

I think that Lord Paramounts are closer in rank/power to dukes than earls. So I think that if Ned Stark were Duke of the North, Robb would be Earl of Winterfell.

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3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

To give a perspective, would Rickard Karstark, as a leading banner man for House Stark, be the Earl of Karhold? Or Randyll Tarly the Earl of Horn Hill?

It is pretty much impossible to give such people proper titles when we don't really know what kind of titles would exist. We can say that there should be a clear difference in rank and prestige reflected in titles between really great mid-tier houses like Frey, Royce, Redwyne, Reyne, etc. and the likes of the Baelishs, Crabbs, Brunes, etc.

But we cannot really say who deserves what title, especially not since titles usually stick and do not always accurately reflect the real prestige, power, and wealth a noble family actually commands.

For instance, the Freys could easily be mere lords or barons, just awfully rich ones, whereas the Westerlings of the Crag could be impoverished marquesses.

If a house is favored by the king - like the Tullys, Tyrells, etc. - they could easily gain great titles (just as Littlefinger does in ASoS) but not all houses of power and influence necessarily need such titles - they would crave them, though.

3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Would a son of a Lord Paramount hold a title in his own right, i.e. Edward Plantagenet, son of Richard, Duke of York, who was Earl of March before becoming King Edward IV?

That is not very likely considering that title accumulation isn't a thing in the Seven Kingdoms. The only son who holds a title in his own right is the Prince of Dragonstone. And even he has to receive said title from the king.

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43 minutes ago, Ser Frasier of House Crane said:

I think that Lord Paramounts are closer in rank/power to dukes than earls. So I think that if Ned Stark were Duke of the North, Robb would be Earl of Winterfell.

A duke is a kind of governor general, exercising powers of a military and judicial nature. His son bears no title unless his father (or the King, I suppose) puts him at the head of a subdivision of the duchy (county, lordship), or he inherits a land and a title by marriage.

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54 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

A duke is a kind of governor general, exercising powers of a military and judicial nature. His son bears no title unless his father (or the King, I suppose) puts him at the head of a subdivision of the duchy (county, lordship), or he inherits a land and a title by marriage.

So Duke is more akin to Warden, then?

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Medieval England, there wasn't a chain of vassalage like there is in Westeros e.g Knight-Minor Lord- Principal Bannerman - Lord Paramount-King, but titles were dictated by how much land the title owner was entitled to but senior ranks like Dukes and Marquesses could order lower ranks such as Barons and Viscounts. Of course, over time, the lands of titles increased and decreased

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On 2/16/2018 at 7:14 PM, Angel Eyes said:

I know that Kings are technically the top, but what are the rest? Is being a Lord Paramount the equivalent of a duchy? A principal bannerman an Earl?

The ranks of the English peerage are, in descending order, Duke, Marquess, Earl, Viscount, and Baron. While most newer English peerages descend only in the male line, many of the older ones (particularly older baronies) can descend through females. Under English inheritance law all daughters are co-heirs, so many older English peerage titles have fallen into abeyance between various female co-heirs.

Baronets, while holders of hereditary titles, are not peers and do not confer nobility. Knights, Dames, and holders of other non-hereditary orders, decorations, and medals of the United Kingdom are also not peers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peerage_of_England

So yes, medieval was more complex that Westeros.

I would say there are no Westerosi equivalents. George didn't want to hassle with this and just left it as all other nobles are lords. In England, even the titles are much more complex, and the King is not called Your Grace. 

  

KingHM The KingYour MajestyYour Majesty, and thereafter as "Sir"
(or the archaic "Sire")

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forms_of_address_in_the_United_Kingdom

 

The closest Martin seems to have come to most of this is the prince getting Dragonstone or Summerhall. 

Hand of the King, and so on are not hereditary titles and their children wouldn't be addressed differently. These positions are not reserved for nobility either as we see with Peter Baelish and Varys, or Barth. 

I dont think Martin initially expected his fans to be so rabid for details haha you can see the shift by A Feast for Crows.

Edit- the top link is indeed for the feudal age. 

Here they are for after 1701 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peerage_of_Great_Britain

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11 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

A duke is a kind of governor general, exercising powers of a military and judicial nature. His son bears no title unless his father (or the King, I suppose) puts him at the head of a subdivision of the duchy (county, lordship), or he inherits a land and a title by marriage.

The son does indeed bear a title as the position of Duke is usually given to the Prince of England untill he becomes King. So his son his nobility typically. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke

Edward III of England created the first English dukedom by naming his eldest son Edward, the Black Prince, as Duke of Cornwall in 1337, after he lost his own title of Duke of Normandy. Upon the death of the Black Prince, the duchy of Cornwall passed to his nine-year-old son, who would eventually succeed his grandfather as Richard II.

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The secondary title held by the eldest son is usually the next highest title held by the family. ie: If a Marquess is elevated to Duke eldest sons there after will be known as the Marquess of Tral'alala land. But if an Earl is elevated to a Duke the sons would thereafter be the Earl of Tral'alala land.  With the title also being that of the former highest estate. What you call people in our system is quite complicated. The wife of certain titles is referred to as Lady Tra'lala' land.  And doesn't use the actual family name at all. And often the bloke is referred to simply as Tra'lala land.  Where as a daughter of say a Duke or Marquess would be Lady Pandora. And a younger son a Lord. These are courtesy titles.  Earls, Viscounts and barons sons get The Honourable.   I don't think ASOIAF has the same level of bewildering peerage as we do. Which makes things a lot more simple for an author. When you have to make sure your reader can keep track of who is who whilst accurately representing the peerage system it can be rather difficult to create an easily followable narrative.

  

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