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Question Does Varys knows who Jon Snow really is?


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28 minutes ago, Megorova said:

That's the source of your misconception.

Characters of ASOIAF doesn't know that Rhaegar and Lyanna were spending time together. All they know is that when Lyanna was on her way to her brother's wedding at Riverran, she was kidnapped by Rhaegar Targaryen. That's all. They don't know that Lyanna and Rhaegar went to Dorne. They don't know where Rhaegar was, after he kidnapped Lyanna, and prior he returned to King's Landing. They don't know when exactly, and how Lyanna died. So they all may as well think that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, raped her, killed her, and then left her body somewhere, from where much later, her remnants were retrieved by her brother.

Don't confuse information known to us - READERS - with what is known to characters.

We know this from Eddards dream (AGOT, Eddard X):

In the World book it is said that Lyanna's exact whereabouts during Robert's Rebellion were unknown. Rhaegar himself could not be found, either, for a large part of the war.

People don't know whether all that time, when Rhaegar's whereabouts were unknown, he spent with Lyanna. They don't know it.

This is what Jaime and other people from King's Landing know:

Thus they knew only that Rhaegar came from somewhere in the south. That's all. Probably not many people know ever this piece of information. Jaime was one of Kingsguards, so to him Rhaegar maybe told that he returned from the south, and not more than that. Characters doesn't know whether Rhaegar was in the south with Lyanna, or whether at that time Lyanna was already long dead.

Events at the Tower of Joy, are known only to us, readers, and only thru Eddard's dream, that I posted above.

Separate in your mind, what we (readers) know, from what they (characters) know.

Um, Robert is pretty convinced that Rhaegar raped Lyanna "hundreds of times." When you kidnap someone, particularly when a man kidnaps a woman, it's a pretty safe assumption that he's not going to just lock her away somewhere, give her flowers, and then go about his normal day. The story being put out is the Rhaegar is overcome with lust and has kidnapped Lyanna to have his way with her. This may not be the true story, but this is what the realm believes.

Eddard has to return to KL with a plausible story as to how Lyanna died, so unless he is going to tell a whopper like he just found her in a streambed or something, then he has to tell of the events at the ToJ. Three of the realm's finest knights are dead, including the Lord Commander of the KG, plus five of Ned's bannermen, and Ned has returned Dawn to Starfall. So how on earth is he supposed report to KL that Lyanna is dead but he has no idea what happened to the rest? If Lyanna had been raped and killed months before, I'm stumped as to how Ned would explain why three kingsguard would sacrifice their lives protecting her dead body.

We do know what the characters know. It's the history of the realm. Jaime sees that the White Book needs updating with the deaths of Mandon Moore and Preston Greenfield. Does it say that the White Bull rode off one day and was never seen again, or that Arthur Dayne's whereabouts are unknown but his sword was returned by Ned Stark who has no idea how it came to be in his possession? 

 

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46 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Out of curiosity, who do you think knows about Jon?

On top of Wylla and House Dayne, I think Leyton Hightower knows. Are there names you wanna throw at me?

Howland Reed, most definitely. In fact, I think Howland is the only person alive who knows the truth.

I doubt all of House Dayne, or anyone for that matter, knows. Edric Dayne doesn't seem to know. I don't see any reason to tell anyone but Ashara, and even then it would depend on what she already knows. Wylla is an unknown. She may just be a name that Ned gave up to Robert to squelch his curiosity. Wylla might not even know she is involved at all.

Leyton Hightower? How do you figure?

This is Ned's most carefully kept secret. If he can't even tell Cat, despite the shame this lie brings to her, then there is no reason to tell anyone else.

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17 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Wylla is an unknown. She may just be a name that Ned gave up to Robert to squelch his curiosity. Wylla might not even know she is involved at all.

No, we know she serves at Starfall, since she nursed Ned Dayne and he believes she is Jon's mother.

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39 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Howland Reed, most definitely. In fact, I think Howland is the only person alive who knows the truth

I completely forgot about him. 

39 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Leyton Hightower? How do you figure?

A few things in the text that had me wondering. I've been jolting things down about this, so I'm hoping I'll have something written down on this by week's end.

39 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

This is Ned's most carefully kept secret. If he can't even tell Cat, despite the shame this lie brings to her, then there is no reason to tell anyone else.

I don't think Ned would tell anyone, but would he know who the people at the tower communicated with while they were there? These people already know the outcome of the Trident and they know of the Sack of King's Landing, so information has come to them somehow. There's obviously a lot of stuff we don't know, so this speculation could be completely wrong.

As far as Wylla goes, I don't think she was the wet nurse that went to Winterfell, and I think we might have gotten a hint as far as her identity goes and where she might be in AFFC.

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3 hours ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

Ashara most likely didn't know where Lyanna was. Ashara was most likely in Starfall by the time Ned reach the TOJ. 

Food for thought, but I wouldn't rule out Ashara knowing where the ToJ was (she's Dornish), where her brother was, where Aerys had sent the KG to go find Rhaegar, etc etc.  She could have easily learned all of this while in Elia's service.

Let's say Ned & Ashara had a discussion in KL; It's quite possible that Ned told Ashara to make for Starfall pronto (he distrusted the Lannisters immensely at this point and obviously cared for Ashara) as he left for Storm's End, then ToJ. She could easily have made it home before he got to ToJ, as you noted.

Side note: Why would Ned, if he were so intent on finding his sister, go to Storm's End first?  Duty, sure.  Or, could be he was assured his sister was (temporarily) safe with Arthur, by Ashara. Something's just hinky about the whole thing and our author has already told us not to take fever dreams at face value.  ETA-GRRM also wanted to make sure we know Ashara is transient.

Unless.....someone at Storm's End told Ned where ToJ was, which kinda eliminates Ashara and Varys and I don't think Mace Tyrell knows his butt from a hole in the wall.

Finally, a little twist given to us by The Bold: Had Ashara turned to Barristan (to go to his white brothers at ToJ and retrieve Lyanna) instead of turning to a Stark (Ned), perhaps her brother would be alive and she wouldn't have felt such grief for giving his whereabouts up to Ned.  And Ned wouldn't have felt so sickened by what he did that he returned Dawn and chewed Cat's face off for mentioning Ashara.

Just having a little fun with it all!

 

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On 2/17/2018 at 0:05 PM, Bloodraven's Spider said:

Yes. Varys most likely told Ned where Lyanna was and knew why. You don't just stumble across the Tower of Joy it's In the middle of no where. 

Somehow I missed this when I was first reading the thread and then I saw it quoted in other people's responses and had to respond myself to it. For some reason people think this is true, but the ToJ is actually easily found and hard to miss. There are two routes through the mountains into Dorne. One of these two routes is the Bone Way, which Summerhall stood at it's northern entrance. The second route is the Prince's Pass. At the entrance of the Prince's Pass was a watchtower that had been manned to provide early warning of a possible attack from the Reach in the period before Dorne joining the rest of the Westeros. This watchtower was immediately visible to anyone approaching the Prince's Pass and it had to be passed by anyone entering Dorne. Rhaegar had renamed this watchtower ToJ because of his time there with Lyanna.

ETA: The ToJ was just barely over the border into Dorne.

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19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, no. If anyone is Calla Blackfyre and Bittersteel descendant it is Illyrio, not Varys. Illyrio is the father of Aegon, not Varys. Going through Serra is just overly complicated and still doesn't explain why the hell Illyrio - the one actually living and loving Aegon - enacts this mad plan which permanently separates him from his only child. The idea that Illyrio would do that kind of thing because his dead wife (and best friend) would ask him to is just silly. Why on earth should that man care that Serra and Varys want to put his son on the Iron Throne? Illyrio Mopatis is a Pentoshi. Aegon's future should be in Pentos (or Essos) not in savage Westeros.

I never said that I think that Varys is fAegon's father.

Though I also don't believe that his father is Illyrio.

This info is a bit off-topic

Spoiler

I think that fAegon's parents are Barristan Selmy and Septa Lemore, who is actually Jeyne Swann.

And Barristan is son of Shiera Seastar, that is currently living under name Quaithe.

Shiera Seastar is half-Targaryen herself. I think that she got somehow connected with Blackfyres. Either she had an affair with Aenys Blackfyre, or something like that. If Barristan's father is Aenys, then he is 50% Blackfyre thru his father, and 25% Targaryen thru his mother, and he additionally has 25% of Valyrian genes from Serenei of Lys, his maternal grandmother.

Also I think that Serenei of Lys, last mistress of Aegon IV, is actually Larra Rogare, mother of Aegon IV. Larra for unknown reasons went back to Essos, and then mysteriously died, from unknown causes, when she was only 30 years old. And years later, nearly out of nowhere, appeared this Serenei, that was a witch. So I think that Larra staged her death, and went to Asshai to study magic. Just look at their pictures from the World book, isn't this the same person? And I'm basing it, not only on the fact that both of them are blondes, and both have lilac-colored eyes. They have identical hairline, shape of lips, shape of ears, shape of eyebrows, shape of eyes, shape of nose, shape of chin. It's the same person, just looking older.

And Larra Rogare is daughter of Johanna Swann, the Black Swan of Lys, and one of leaders of the Triarchy. Thus Jeyne Swann is bloodrelated to Barristan, thru his great grandmother Johanna Swann.

I know that that's a lot of speculations, but all of it perfectly fits together.

For example in the story how Viserys II was seized by pirates, and got married with Larra Rogare, there are some missing pieces. Links with info:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Viserys_II_Targaryen

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Sharako_Lohar

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Triarchy

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Johanna_Swann

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Rogare

"When fifteen years old, Johanna was thus enslaved, and her niggardly uncle Lord Swann refused to pay the ransom. Johanna became a celebrated courtesan known as the Black Swan, and was eventually ruler of Lys in all but name.[1]"

Viserys was captured by pirates of the Triarchy. Then Tyroshi captain brought Viserys to Sharako Lohar, who was Triarchy's admiral from Lys.

"the direct cause of the breakup of the Triarchy was when a Lyseni admiral was assassinated by a rival over the affections of the Black Swan, Johanna Swann."

"Viserys ended up in Lys under the stewardship of the wealthy Rogare family, whose bank at the time was as powerful as the Iron Bank of Braavos.

From the World book we know that the Head of the Rogare family was Lysandro the Magnificent. His three children were Larra, Lysarro and Moredo. His brother's name was Drazenko. His sister-in-law's name was Aliandra Martell. Name of his son's (Moredo's) sword was Truth, it was a Valyrian steel blade. But we don't know name of his wife, and mother of his three children. Isn't absence of her name SUSPICIOUS? Authors gave us names of his three children, his brother, his sister-in-law, and even name of his brother's sword, but for some reason left out name of his wife, who was mother of Larra, and grandmother of Aegon IV. Why is that? Because even though her name wasn't written in their family tree, the Authors did gave us her name. Lysandro's wife was Johanna Swann, "ruler of Lys in all but name".

1. Johanna's lover was Sharako Lohar <- this is a fact. 2. Viserys II was in possession of Sharako Lohar, prior he ended up in Rogares family <- this is also a fact. 3. Sharako was killed by someone who was in love/was lover of Johanna Swann <- this is also a fact.

1 + 2 + 3 = Johanna's admirer, that killed admiral Lohar, and took from him Viserys II, was Lysandro Rogare. And in the book the name of Lysandro's wife wasn't written, because she kept her maiden name - Swann = she was ruler of Lys in all but name. Because name of rulers of Lys was Rogare. Rogares family bank was richer and more influential, than even Iron Bank of Braavos. Iron Bank is owned by many people, while Rogares bank was a family owned business. Who else may be rulers of Lys, if not the most wealthiest family in the entire world?

Thus sometimes gaps in information are actually clues. Or clues are small pieces of information, that at first glance seems unconnected.

For example - Barristan Selmy in his childhood was squire of Manfred Swann + in 281 he saved Lady Jeyne Swann and her septa from Kingswood Brotherhood + leader of Kingswood Brotherhood was Simon Toyne + Myles Toyne was captain-general of Golden Company, in years when JonCon was with them + Golden Company and JonCon are supporters of fAegon + fAegon was educated by septa Lemore + septa Lemore has stretch marks, that indicate that she gave birth to a child/was pregnant + she doesn't behave like average septa, when she changed her clothes, Tyrion noticed that posing as a daughter of some lord, she looks more natural, than when she's posing as septa = septa Lemore is fAegon's mother, and her real name is Jeyne Swann, and the boy's father is Barristan Selmy.

Illyrio didn't sent Barristan to fAegon, because he can recognize septa Lemore, he met her before, furthermore she used on him love potion, to make him conceive a child with her.   

It doesn't look like Illyrio is fAegon's father. He has the boy's old clothes in his mansion, so what? That means, only that the boy used to live in Illyrio's house, not that he was his son. Also if that boy's mother was Serra, then why did GRRM wrote about stretch marks, that has septa Lemore? Furthermore he gave to us this detail, in between Tyrion's suspicions about fakeness of Aegon's Targaryen identity. Tyrion figured out, that the boy is a fake, and that Lemore is his mother, and that she's not a mere septa, she used to be some lord's daughter. If she is fAegon's mother, then his father is not Illyrio, and not Varys. Varys was castrated long ago, in his childhood, prior he fathered any children. And Illyrio was married with Serra, not with septa Lemore. Septa Lemore has brown hair, thus she is not a Valyrian. But the boy has Valyrian features, thus his father should also have a Valyrian looks. And Barristan Selmy has blue eyes. With ageing eye color becomes paler, thus could be that in his youth, Barristan had indigo-colored eyes, same as fAegon.

All clues indicate that fAegon is not son of Rhaegar. And also that Varys and Illyrio created a multi layered legend/cover story, to pose the boy, as a lost Targaryen prince. Why to bother with all this overcomplicated scheming, if they knew about existence of Rhaegar's real son - Jon Snow? Thus all their plotting centered around fAegon is a proof that Varys didn't knew about Jon.

And it is totally insignificant that Jon doesn't have Valyrian looks. Because at the time of Jon's birth, there were people alive, that knew that prince Rhaegar was his father - Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, Gerold Hightower, Howland Reed, Eddard Stark, Ashara Dayne.

Arthur Dayne was Rhaegar's closest friend, much closer that Jon Connington. And Ashara Dayne was lady-in-waiting of princess Elia. Oswell Whent was brother of Lord of Harrenhall, where Lyanna and Rhaegar has met for the first time, and near which Lyanna was later kidnapped by Rhaegar. Gerold Hightower was Lord Commander of Kingsguards. Eddard Stark was Lord of Winterfell. Those people were trustworthy and reliable. If all of them said, that Jon is Rhaegar's son, then people wouldn't gave a damn about his non-Valyrian looks.

Also probably there's somewhere hidden document, about Lyanna's and Rhaegar's wedding. So if Varys would have known about Jon, then he most likely would have also knew about existence of that document. If Varys was aware of ongoing connection between Lyanna and Rhaegar, then he would have used any means, to get his hands on Jon. He would have helped Ned to evacuate the boy away from Westeros, and danger from Robert Baratheon and Lannisters. Or even more likely, that if Varys knew anything, then he would have sent someone to the Tower of Joy, ahead of Ned. And thus, by the time of Ned's arrival, Jon and Lyanna could have been already on the other side of Narrow Sea, somewhere in Braavos or Pentos. And Jon would have been raised by Arthur and Ashara Dayne. But nothing like that happened.

Thus Varys knew nothing. If he had real prince, why to create fake? 

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2 hours ago, Aetta said:

Food for thought, but I wouldn't rule out Ashara knowing where the ToJ was (she's Dornish), where her brother was, where Aerys had sent the KG to go find Rhaegar, etc etc.  She could have easily learned all of this while in Elia's service.

Let's say Ned & Ashara had a discussion in KL; It's quite possible that Ned told Ashara to make for Starfall pronto (he distrusted the Lannisters immensely at this point and obviously cared for Ashara) as he left for Storm's End, then ToJ. She could easily have made it home before he got to ToJ, as you noted.

Side note: Why would Ned, if he were so intent on finding his sister, go to Storm's End first?  Duty, sure.  Or, could be he was assured his sister was (temporarily) safe with Arthur, by Ashara. Something's just hinky about the whole thing and our author has already told us not to take fever dreams at face value.  ETA-GRRM also wanted to make sure we know Ashara is transient.

Unless.....someone at Storm's End told Ned where ToJ was, which kinda eliminates Ashara and Varys and I don't think Mace Tyrell knows his butt from a hole in the wall.

Finally, a little twist given to us by The Bold: Had Ashara turned to Barristan (to go to his white brothers at ToJ and retrieve Lyanna) instead of turning to a Stark (Ned), perhaps her brother would be alive and she wouldn't have felt such grief for giving his whereabouts up to Ned.  And Ned wouldn't have felt so sickened by what he did that he returned Dawn and chewed Cat's face off for mentioning Ashara.

Just having a little fun with it all!

 

Sure someone at Storms End could have been the source but who? And i'm not doubting Ashara's ability to find the TOJ but her knowledge of where Lyanna is.

2 hours ago, bent branch said:

Somehow I missed this when I was first reading the thread and then I saw it quoted in other people's responses and had to respond myself to it. For some reason people think this is true, but the ToJ is actually easily found and hard to miss. There are two routes through the mountains into Dorne. One of these two routes is the Bone Way, which Summerhall stood at it's northern entrance. The second route is the Prince's Pass. At the entrance of the Prince's Pass was a watchtower that had been manned to provide early warning of a possible attack from the Reach in the period before Dorne joining the rest of the Westeros. This watchtower was immediately visible to anyone approaching the Prince's Pass and it had to be passed by anyone entering Dorne. Rhaegar had renamed this watchtower ToJ because of his time there with Lyanna.

ETA: The ToJ was just barely over the border into Dorne.

Ok fine. But still someone had to tell Ned to come this way. Out of everywhere in the realm Ned happens to find his missing sister on first shot out of pure lucky? Something doesn't add up he was told to come this way.

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24 minutes ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

Sure someone at Storms End could have been the source but who? And i'm not doubting Ashara's ability to find the TOJ but her knowledge of where Lyanna is.

Ok fine. But still someone had to tell Ned to come this way. Out of everywhere in the realm Ned happens to find his missing sister on first shot out of pure lucky? Something doesn't add up he was told to come this way.

Someone definitely told Ned where to find Lyanna and that person was Varys. I have no doubt that Varys had a note slipped to Ned in a manner similar to the way the message was slipped to Kevan in the Epilogue of ADWD. This is the reason I believe Varys either does know or has a strong suspicion that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. I don't believe for a moment that no one in KL knew where Rhaegar and Lyanna were. I just think it was known by very few people where they were.

I just try to correct this incorrect idea about the ToJ, because if you only read about it, it's location can seem really mysterious. I only realized where it was after looking at the maps from that group of maps released a number of years ago.

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5 hours ago, bent branch said:

ToJ is actually easily found and hard to miss.

Not really sure what you mean here. ToJ itself was not a secret location, the secret was that Lyanna was there, so without being told where Lyanna was, Ned would have had no reason to go that way or approach the tower. A watchtower needs to overlook the countryside, so it needs to be at a vantage point ("ridge") while the roads usually follow a more levelled route.

 

6 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

As far as Wylla goes, I don't think she was the wet nurse that went to Winterfell, and I think we might have gotten a hint as far as her identity goes and where she might be in AFFC.

??? Wylla is at Starfall, as per Ned Dayne. Do you mean the Winterfell nurse here? And which hint do you have in mind?

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16 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Not really sure what you mean here. ToJ itself was not a secret location, the secret was that Lyanna was there, so without being told where Lyanna was, Ned would have had no reason to go that way or approach the tower. A watchtower needs to overlook the countryside, so it needs to be at a vantage point ("ridge") while the roads usually follow a more levelled route.

 

??? Wylla is at Starfall, as per Ned Dayne. Do you mean the Winterfell nurse here? And which hint do you have in mind?

Did you see the post this was in response to?

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17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that the Serra woman has Blackfyre ancestors isn't exactly favored by me. She was a whore, and the Lysene whores all have Valyrian features. She may have been used only to ensure that Illyrio produce a son looking like Prince Rhaegar's son - and I think she wouldn't have been the only woman Illyrio impregnated. Just the one who gave him a son he could use for the plan.

Illyrio is the one who has arranged a pact written in blood with the Golden Company. He controls and directs their every move. It makes no sense that he could do that if he is just some guy who was married to a Blackfyre-turned-whore.

I have to wonder about that...the golden company is so loyal to the cause of seating a blackfyre on throne to the point that has been their staple for literally generations-I don't imagine them allowing any of the Blackfyre women to debase themselves to the point of prostitution. If Serra is Illyrio I honestly suspect her taking upon herself to seduce the man specifically to win him over to her family's cause. 

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Illyrio is the one who has arranged a pact written in blood with the Golden Company. He controls and directs their every move. It makes no sense that he could do that if he is just some guy who was married to a Blackfyre-turned-whore.

But if Illyrio himself was a Blackfyre descendant then this all makes a lot of sense. It could also work with Serra but then he and Varys would do stuff basically for the sake of a dead woman - not all that believable, especially since Illyrio could also just raise Aegon as his own son, actually being a father for the boy.

What evidence could he bring? Doubtful  he'd be the first pretender coming to them with tales of him being some long lost son-he doesn't even look the part-even if he is the company's high command would be hesitant no?

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7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

??? Wylla is at Starfall, as per Ned Dayne. Do you mean the Winterfell nurse here? And which hint do you have in mind?

Ned said that Wylla served House Dayne for years and years before he was born and was his wet nurse, but he doesn't say that she is still at Starfall.

One of the things that stood out for me was in the Queenmaker chapter was Garin's mother. Garin said she was the best midwife in Westeros (which could obviously be a stretch, but she's a midwife) and that the woman was Arianne's wet nurse, making Garin and Arianne milk siblings. 

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11 hours ago, bent branch said:

Someone definitely told Ned where to find Lyanna and that person was Varys. I have no doubt that Varys had a note slipped to Ned in a manner similar to the way the message was slipped to Kevan in the Epilogue of ADWD. This is the reason I believe Varys either does know or has a strong suspicion that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. I don't believe for a moment that no one in KL knew where Rhaegar and Lyanna were. I just think it was known by very few people where they were.

I just try to correct this incorrect idea about the ToJ, because if you only read about it, it's location can seem really mysterious. I only realized where it was after looking at the maps from that group of maps released a number of years ago.

Except Jon wasn't born at the Tower of Joy or the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Aegon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar 

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2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Ned said that Wylla served House Dayne for years and years before he was born and was his wet nurse, but he doesn't say that she is still at Starfall.

He says, "She’s served us for years and years." As in, "has served" - i.e., still serves. She could have left Starfall or Dayne service entirely after he left, of course, but as far as he knows, she is still in their service, meaning still at Starfall.

52 minutes ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

Except Jon wasn't born at the Tower of Joy or the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Aegon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar 

The usual problem -  Ned then promised Lyanna to send her child away and never think about him again, and he never told Jon who his mother was for no good reason.

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18 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

He says, "She’s served us for years and years." As in, "has served" - i.e., still serves. She could have left Starfall or Dayne service entirely after he left, of course, but as far as he knows, she is still in their service, meaning still at Starfall.

The usual problem -  Ned then promised Lyanna to send her child away and never think about him again, and he never told Jon who his mother was for no good reason.

He sent Aegon away with Ashara (with the help of Varys/Connigton/Walys Flowers (aka Haldon). Robert was on a mission to kill every Targaryen remaining. Hiding Rhaegars son who happens to be the son of his betroth (Lyanna) won't go well with him plus he would be committing treason. We see what Robert did to Tywin when he presented him Rhaenys and Aegon... Nothing, because he was glad they were dead.

Aegon and Ashara had to be kept secret from Jon and the masses because if anyone who shouldn't, find out about their existence it could very well mean their death. Something Ned went to great lengths to hide especially Ashara. His relationship with her is one of the most secretive storylines in the entire series. He was forced into his marriage with Cat.

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33 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

He says, "She’s served us for years and years." As in, "has served" - i.e., still serves. She could have left Starfall or Dayne service entirely after he left, of course, but as far as he knows, she is still in their service, meaning still at Starfall.

Present perfect can also be used when talking about the recent past. Regardless, you asked a question, I answered. I think that's who Wylla is and you can do with the speculation whatever you want ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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22 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Present perfect can also be used when talking about the recent past. Regardless, you asked a question, I answered. I think that's who Wylla is and you can do with the speculation whatever you want ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Only if they have an active result (i.e. I have washed the floor = the floor is still wet/clean). Present perfect + for + a period of time means duration of the given activity for the given length of time, up till the point of speaking. 

37 minutes ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

He sent Aegon away with Ashara (with the help of Varys/Connigton/Walys Flowers (aka Haldon). Robert was on a mission to kill every Targaryen remaining. Hiding Rhaegars son who happens to be the son of his betroth (Lyanna) won't go well with him plus he would be committing treason. We see what Robert did to Tywin when he presented him Rhaenys and Aegon... Nothing, because he was glad they were dead.

Aegon and Ashara had to be kept secret from Jon and the masses because if anyone who shouldn't, find out about their existence it could very well mean their death. Something Ned went to great lengths to hide especially Ashara. His relationship with her is one of the most secretive storylines in the entire series. He was forced into his marriage with Cat.

This doesn't adress either of my points, though.

If Aegon is the son of Lyanna, then Ned sent him away with the help of people he didn't know and had no reason to trust, and never, ever, thought about him again. And since he is never bothered by not knowing where the boy was or whether he was alright and considered his promises to Lyanna kept, it must have been what he promised Lyanna on her deathbed. - Kinda, doesn't make sense to me, does it to you? Does it seem to you in character with Ned?

Also, he thinks that he has been living lies for fourteen years. What lies, if Jon is really his son? Sending Aegon away fourteen years ago and never thinking about him again is not lying. 

And while you are right that Ashara taking care of Aegon does qualify as a secret not to be told, Ashara being Jon's mother does not. There's absolutely no way that the information "Ashara is Jon's mother" could lead anyone to figure out "Ashara is taking care of Aegon", there is zero connection between those two points. Both Ashara and Aegon are dead to the world, their deaths aren't connected in any way. There is a plausible explanation of Ashara's suicide as grief over her brother's death by her lover's hand, so why the hell not tell Jon (and Cat).

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4 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Only if they have an active result (i.e. I have washed the floor = the floor is still wet/clean). Present perfect + for + a period of time means duration of the given activity for the given length of time, up till the point of speaking. 

This doesn't adress either of my points, though.

If Aegon is the son of Lyanna, then Ned sent him away with the help of people he didn't know and had no reason to trust, and never, ever, thought about him again. And since he is never bothered by not knowing where the boy was or whether he was alright and considered his promises to Lyanna kept, it must have been what he promised Lyanna on her deathbed. - Kinda, doesn't make sense to me, does it to you? Does it seem to you in character with Ned?

Also, he thinks that he has been living lies for fourteen years. What lies, if Jon is really his son? Sending Aegon away fourteen years ago and never thinking about him again is not lying. 

And while you are right that Ashara taking care of Aegon does qualify as a secret not to be told, Ashara being Jon's mother does not. There's absolutely no way that the information "Ashara is Jon's mother" could lead anyone to figure out "Ashara is taking care of Aegon", there is zero connection between those two points. Both Ashara and Aegon are dead to the world, their deaths aren't connected in any way. There is a plausible explanation of Ashara's suicide as grief over her brother's death by her lover's hand, so why the hell not tell Jon (and Cat).

Why not tell Jon? Because if he tells him who she is and that she's dead Ned is lying to his son and he opens up a can of worms. He married Ashara before Cat and the marriage was most likely done in White Harbor in front of a Weirwood and not in in the light of the 7 like his marriage with Cat. Jon is the eldest and should be heir of winterfell. If he tells him she's alive but hasnt a clue where she is, Jon could go looking for her or others who want to do Ned harm. Plus once they find out she is watching over the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna all hell will break loose. And Ashara 100% cares for Aegon and has Ned's trust.

The connection between the 2 points is not so much the actions themselves but the consequences. If people found out that she is Jon's mother and is watching over her nephew who happens to be 1 of the last Targaryens in the world she would be in grave danger. 

 

 

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