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The Bran-Hodor Conundrum


Faera

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I will be the first thread I’ve ever started myself and I want to thank @Curled Fingerand @LynnS for their encouragement in helping me in finally plucking up the courage to start a post of my own (rather than always twiddling my thumbs and hoping someone else will have a similar idea I can post on) as well as @kissdbyfire and @Cridefea for extra positive reinforcement and patience.  (Sorry, also @Seams for taking so long to actually press the 'Submit Topic' button on this)!

Incidentally, the thread that prompted me to post this theory was ‘Sorcerers and Swords’ started by Curled Finger:

It presented the argument for the Targaryen ancestral sword Dark Sister being associated with, and likely destined to, fall into the hands of a magic user – a sorcerer. This is something of a Prologue to my first post there where I touched on my reasons for why I think, if that sword is going to be wielded by anyone any time soon, it will be be Bran - or the Bran-Hodor.

Bran has always fascinated me and something that has always struck a cord with me is whether he is on the verge of becoming morally corrupt due to the influence of Bloodraven or his own choices. I understand why the debate circles around Hodor so much particularly their relationship in terms of Hodor being one of Bran's “skins” and how they might be changing each other as a result despite the very practice being, as Haggon would tell Varamyr, "abomination". It has been on my mind for a long time.

Thanks to Bran’s reliance on Hodor to get around we get allusions to them working in tandem early on even before the first skin-changing incident in Queenstower. It is primarily Hodor who fulfils the tasks Bran can’t do himself anymore, from getting dressed to getting about. He was a ‘gentle’ pair of hands, ‘always smelled faintly of horses’ and ‘trotted’ around Winterfell with Bran in a specially designed wicker basket, much like the special saddle Bran uses to ride Dancer. Despite being a man and ‘not a mule to be beaten’ (Bran VII, AGoT), sometimes Hodor feels like an animal companion, like a noble steed that carries the knight (a dream that Bran can no longer fulfil) and also makes up for what Bran has lost physically. This isn't lost on Bran:

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"If I still had my legs, I could beat them all." He remembered the last time he'd held a sword in his hand, when the king had come to Winterfell. It was only a wooden sword, yet he'd knocked Prince Tommen down half a hundred times. "Ser Rodrik should teach me to use a poleaxe. If I had a poleaxe with a big long haft, Hodor could be my legs. We could be a knight together."
- Bran VII, AGoT

As much as he could, Bran preferred to dress himself, but there were some tasks—pulling on breeches, lacing his boots—that vexed him. They went quicker with Hodor's help. Once he had been taught to do something, he did it deftly. His hands were always gentle, though his strength was astonishing. "You could have been a knight too, I bet," Bran told him. "If the gods hadn't taken your wits, you would have been a great knight."
“Hodor?” Hodor blinked at him with guileless brown eyes, eyes innocent of understanding.
“Yes,” said Bran. “Hodor.” He pointed.
- Bran II, ACoK

The second quote is, it goes without saying, loaded with more connotations than we can swing a cat at. As far as my theory goes, despite Luwin's insistence that it will only break his heart, Bran never lets go of his secret desire to be a knight (even in 'A Dance with Dragons' he still laments over it), factors Hodor into his "bargaining" ways to still be a knight, and even acknowledges that Hodor has the right strength and gentleness that would make a great knight of the sorts of stories Bran enjoys. So, there are two sides to this early Bran-Hodor -- the broken knight and his surrogate horse (especially after Dancer dies, he becomes Bran's only form of transportation) and as the replacement "bottom-half". It is all very much the prelude to what eventually happens as well as an allusion to Hodor becoming a knight or Bran-Hodor becoming a knight together.

The only way to truly allow to them become one, singular knight (of course) is through Bran's ability to skin-change. There is no denying the sinister aspects of what their relationship becomes once Bran starts actively skin-change Hodor, taking away his autonomy. Though the first time was an accident, latter attempts stem from two motivations -- Bran's altruism towards his friends (one in particular but I'll get to that later) and a personal desire to be strong again.

The Bran-Hodor skinchanging dynamic truly begins for Bran "like trying to pull a left boot on your right foot...fit all wrong, and the boot was scared too, the boot didn't know what was happening, the boot was pushing the foot away." (Bran IV, ASoS) yet as of his final chapter in 'A Dance with Dragons', as far as I can see, the process of Bran and Hodor becoming "one" (or "Bran-Hodor") is nearing completion:

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Under the hill, ...Hodor wandered through dark tunnels with a sword in his right hand and a torch in his left. Or was it Bran wandering?
No one must ever know. 
[...] The big stableboy no longer fought him as he had the first time, back in the lake tower during the storm. Like a dog who has had all the fight whipped out of him, Hodor would curl up and hide whenever Bran reached out for him. 
- Bran III, ADwD

The fight has pretty much gone out of Hodor now though this is the end result of what was a long process. Their 'struggle for dominance' is not dissimilar to the way Jojen sees the Bran-Summer dynamic. He asks Bran to “remember who you are” (Bran VII, ACoK), as a separate being from Summer in a stern attempt to keep Bran from essentially ‘letting Summer win’. There is not only the physical risk but the mental one:

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“Remember that, Bran. Remember yourself, or the wolf will consume you. When you join, it is not enough to run and hunt and howl in Summer’s skin.”
It is for me, Bran thought. He liked Summer’s skin better than his own. What good is it to be a skinchanger if you can’t wear the skin you like?  
– Bran I, ASoS

Here, Jojen seems to fear that Bran will become more 'Summer' and less 'Bran' as Bran forgets to consciously do things to assert himself (like scratching the trees), allowing Summer to rule what they do. This worry is not unfounded as Bran's thoughts drift off to the desire to become the wolf again because he understandably enjoys the mobility and freedom he enjoys as Summer compared to his own crippled body. "Bran the broken. Better Bran the beastling. Was it any wonder he would sooner dream his Summer dreams, his wolf dreams?" (Bran VII, ACoK) Yet, by the start of ADwD, Bran has a greater the dominion over Summer, reminding him of their "pack" and mentally scolding him for salivating over Coldhand's elk. There are even times when he "grew tired of being a wolf" (Bran I, ADwD), prompting him - essentially out of boredom - to slip into Hodor's skin instead.

All this considered, it makes sense that the Bran-Hodor dynamic would mirror the Bran-Summer one. Much like he has asserted dominance over Summer, he has done so with Hodor. The likeness of Hodor to a dog in the above quote might even be to underscore their similarity, as is the boot simile. As Varamyr remembers from Haggon's teachings, that a wolf can "even be broken" and dogs are "like putting on an old boot, its leather softened by wear" (Prologue, ADwD). Taking Hodor with such ease now is not only demonstration of Hodor having given up the fight but Bran's growing power.

It is interesting to consider whether Hodor's fight was easier for Bran to overcome become because Hodor is "simple" or because Bran is significantly more powerful than other skinchangers such as Varamyr who also tries to take Thistle's body. I say this because Hodor does struggle and win out against Bran in certain circumstances. The first time Hodor is skin-changed, it only lasts a few seconds with Bran barely understanding what he had done. "He had been Hodor for half a heartbeat. It scared him." (Bran III, ASoS)  as well as the fact that Bran feels him "pushing [him] away" the second time...

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A huge black shape heaved itself up into the darkness and lurched toward the moonlight, and the fear rose up in Bran so thick that before he could even think of drawing Hodor's sword the way he'd meant to, he found himself back on the floor again with Hodor roaring "Hodor hodor HODOR," the way he had in the lake tower whenever the lightning flashed.
- Bran IV, ASoS

It is Bran’s own fear that allows Hodor to push him out to regain control. Both are frightened and, I suppose, the home team always wins. Even in the wight skirmish outside Bloodraven's cave, despite having a much greater hold over Hodor, Bran still loses his grip on the skin-change because seeing Leaf reminds him of Arya, invoking sadness. Again, it is not unlike Bran initially finding it difficult to stay in Summer after his injury by the wildling group. Ultimately, the calmer and more assured Bran is the more he is able to assert himself. The braver Bran becomes, the greater his hold on Hodor. The more Bran-Hodor get used to the process, the more fluid the skinchanging becomes.

It is easy also to argue that Bran's choice to skin-change Hodor now and then on their way to Bloodraven's cave is a cruel act because of how much it disturbs Bran yet at the same time there is no denying that through Hodor Bran is able to keep the team safer than it otherwise would be. I feel this is reinforced quite a bit in the skinchanging incident outside of Bloodraven's cave. While struggling towards the cave, Bran hears Hodor whimpering and suddenly finds himself "not Bran, the broken boy crawling through the snow, suddenly he was Hodor halfway down the hill." (Bran II, ADwD) It's an interesting moment because it is ambiguous whether Bran actively chose to take control of Hodor or whether his "reaching" cave instinctively made him reach for Hodor, his 'mount' who could get him to the cave. Yet even then Bran does not opt to save himself. By skin-changing the meeker Hodor he saves him from the wight attacking him and then violently decapitated it with Hodor's (the unnamed Stark King's) longsword. "Deep inside [Bran] could hear poor Hodor whimpering still, but outside he was seven feet of fury with old iron in his hand.(Bran II, ADwD)  He is then promptly saved in turn by Meera twice: she disables the wight attacking "Bran-Hodor" and then goes back to retrieve Bran's buried body in the snow, protected throughout the attack by Summer. As for Bran-in-Hodor, rather than saving his own body he opts to carry the equally helpless Jojen, weakened by their long journey. Despite putting Hodor's body through a lot, the ends justified the means -- Bran's act of bravery saved Meera, Jojen and Hodor, potentially abandoning his own body to do so. 

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What will happen if it kills me? the boy wondered. Will I be Hodor for good or all? Will I go back into Summer's skin? Or will I just be dead? - Bran II, ADwD

This altruism Bran feels towards his friends is recurs throughout his plot and it seems reasonable to believe it will happen again. Yet this selflessness extends a lot more to his other companions, more so than it does to Hodor. The character it is often targeted towards is Meera. It is no secret to the reader that Bran has had a precocious infatuation with her since first meeting her. He generally enjoys her company more, admires her and takes her advice often seeming more susceptible to her 'charm' (of persuasion). Bran's choice to skin-change Hodor at the Night Fort is born out of his fear of what might happen to her if she fights the 'rat cook' alone, thinking he "can't let her fight the thing alone" (Bran IV, ASoS). Then in the wight skirmish, he is filled "with a sick sense of helpless terror" (Bran II, ADwD) when during the wight fight when he realises she is walking straight into the fray with unconscious Jojen in tow.

It is a little worrying as in these cases where Bran took Hodor’s skin out of necessity it can feel he puts a higher value of Meera’s life and Jojen's life than he did his own or Hodor's. When he skin-changes him he almost ceases to see Hodor as anything other than the soul quivering in fear in that deep place where Bran can't reach him. Bravery aside, Bran does not hesitate to put Hodor’s body in danger as if it were his own. Hodor has become like Summer - Bran loves Summer but he sees his wolf and himself as "one". Hodor is becoming that, too. Meera and Jojen are people separate from himself while Hodor and Summer are his vassals. Take all of this how you wish but it certainly makes me think that Bran will not only continue to take the "child-man" as a skin but he will do it at least once more in order to fight. 

(As a side note, I have seen it put forward in a few threads and other places that Bran might be moving onto "better game" with his skin-changing. "She was right there, only a few feet from him, but so far out of reach it might have been a hundred leagues." The whole in the semi-infamous campfire scene when he might have accidently slipped his skin and "touched" Meera, prompting her to run out suddenly, might mean she's going to work out that Bran-Hodor is a thing. Especially since I really don't see him actually taking control of her.)

As Bran skin-changes Hodor more, I really wonder if Bran would ever able to change Hodor? Just as the wolf can change the warg (you might even argue the source of Bran's developing bravery and more aggressive side is Summer), can the Skinchanger change the Skin? A defining aspect of Bran in contrast to Hodor is his bravery and willingness to use "their" strength" to fight when the infantile Hodor, probably with a younger mental age than Bran at this point, wouldn't hurt a fly. Is it possible for simple Hodor to ever willingly make a brave stand without Bran forcing him to?

I'm not sure but it's something to think about...

Spoiler

 

To commit blasphemy and cite the TV show for a moment, even though I sincerely doubt that the events of the flight from BR's cave in 'The Door' will happen exactly (if at all), it might hint towards Hodor one day making one last brave stand so the others can all escape. 

 

This is where my speculation from the Sorcerers and Swords thread come in:

I'm a little apprehensive about simply reposting the Dark Sister aspect verbatim but to summarise, if we presume that Bran or his companions come face to face with the Others at some point then the swords the stolen from the Winterfell crypts might all end up becoming broken as Waymar Royce's sword in the Prologue of 'A Game of Thrones'. Leaf could equip them with dragonglass but it is just as possible that Dark Sister is somewhere in Bloodraven's cave and will be of use to them. It has long been a headcanon of mine that if "dragonsteel" does refer to Valyrian steel that it will be someone in Bran's team who will demonstrate this fact. To me, it thematically makes sense for Bran to use Dark Sister while using Hodor's body to wield it.

Essentially, I want to go over the possibility of Bran-Hodor becoming "one" in the same sense that Bran is "one" with Summer; how Hodor has become (and perhaps always been) an extension of Bran, and why I ultimately feel thematically it makes sense that the Bran-Hodor skin-changing plot might culminate in them wielding fighting as one entity will one day lead directly or indirectly to Hodor's death. In other words, the last question I'm wondering is... will losing potentially being the direct cause of Hodor's demise cause a part of Bran to die too? If they change each other slowly and their souls become more mingled... what other parallels might there be?

Anyway, I have actually been really nervous about posting this. So,  I apologise if this feels a little all over the place. :rolleyes:

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Nicely done Faera!  Very insightful concerning the Bran-Hodor relationship and the effects of skinchanging.  As for the morality of Bran taking Hodor's body; I have a sense that Hodor has been prepared for Bran for this very purpose, that he might be a kind of dark angel.
 

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A Feast for Crows - Arya II

"Death is not the worst thing," the kindly man replied. "It is His gift to us, an end to want and pain. On the day that we are born the Many-Faced God sends each of us a dark angel to walk through life beside us. When our sins and our sufferings grow too great to be borne, the angel takes us by the hand to lead us to the nightlands, where the stars burn ever bright. Those who come to drink from the black cup are looking for their angels. If they are afraid, the candles soothe them. When you smell our candles burning, what does it make you think of, my child?"

For some strange reason; Hodor is waiting at Bran's bedside with a candle:

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A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

In his dream he was climbing again, pulling himself up an ancient windowless tower, his fingers forcing themselves between blackened stones, his feet scrabbling for purchase. Higher and higher he climbed, through the clouds and into the night sky, and still the tower rose before him. When he paused to look down, his head swam dizzily and he felt his fingers slipping. Bran cried out and clung for dear life. The earth was a thousand miles beneath him and he could not fly. He could not fly. He waited until his heart had stopped pounding, until he could breathe, and he began to climb again. There was no way to go but up. Far above him, outlined against a vast pale moon, he thought he could see the shapes of gargoyles. His arms were sore and aching, but he dared not rest. He forced himself to climb faster. The gargoyles watched him ascend. Their eyes glowed red as hot coals in a brazier. Perhaps once they had been lions, but now they were twisted and grotesque. Bran could hear them whispering to each other in soft stone voices terrible to hear. He must not listen, he told himself, he must not hear, so long as he did not hear them he was safe. But when the gargoyles pulled themselves loose from the stone and padded down the side of the tower to where Bran clung, he knew he was not safe after all. "I didn't hear," he wept as they came closer and closer, "I didn't, I didn't."

He woke gasping, lost in darkness, and saw a vast shadow looming over him. "I didn't hear," he whispered, trembling in fear, but then the shadow said "Hodor," and lit the candle by the bedside, and Bran sighed with relief.

So I think this relationship goes a little deeper than Bran using Hodor as a pair of legs or for defence.  How does Hodor know that Bran is having a terrible nightmare and why is he waiting at his bedside?

The incident outside the cave of the greenseer is also notable because Bran doesn't consciously make a decision to skinchange Hodor and I've wondered if it is in fact it is Hodor who calls Bran to him rather than other way around. Also Bran is supercharged, in beserker mode and fearless. What's up with that? Does becoming one with Hodor involve a permanent psychic link between them?

There is an interesting theory that it may be the perogative of greenseers to skinchange 'giants' so perhaps this is not an abomination unless Bran takes Hodor against his will permanently upon his own death.

What is slightly disturbing to me about the nature of dark angels is their task to lead a person to the nightlands when their sins and burdens become too heavy to bear.   

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Hey Faera, glad you decided to go ahead and start this thread! :cheers:

There are loads of things I want to reply to, or just discuss and speculate on, but I can't really get into it at the mo. But "I'll be back!" - Arnie accent here. :D

For now I will bring up two things, one quite minor... which is, I really like how Bran thinks that together w/ Hodor they could be a knight, given that Hodor is [very likely] the great-great-great (dunno how many 'greats' to put here) grandson of ser Duncan the Tall. :)

The other thing is, I think Bran slipping into Hodor is sort of skinchanging w/ training wheels to prepare him for what he'll have to do in the near future. I won't elaborate here, but if you're interested, here's a link to a post I made on the subject a few yrs back. Be warned, the post contains spoilers for Winds

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/106038-twow-spoilers-theon-i-part-vi/&do=findComment&comment=7142979

 

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20 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Nicely done Faera!  Very insightful concerning the Bran-Hodor relationship and the effects of skinchanging.  As for the morality of Bran taking Hodor's body; I have a sense that Hodor has been prepared for Bran for this very purpose, that he might be a kind of dark angel.

For some strange reason; Hodor is waiting at Bran's bedside with a candle:

So I think this relationship goes a little deeper than Bran using Hodor as a pair of legs or for defence.  How does Hodor know that Bran is having a terrible nightmare and why is he waiting at his bedside?

The incident outside the cave of the greenseer is also notable because Bran doesn't consciously make a decision to skinchange Hodor and I've wondered if it is in fact it is Hodor who calls Bran to him rather than other way around. Also Bran is supercharged, in beserker mode and fearless. What's up with that? Does becoming one with Hodor involve a permanent psychic link between them?

There is an interesting theory that it may be the perogative of greenseers to skinchange 'giants' so perhaps this is not an abomination unless Bran takes Hodor against his will permanently upon his own death.

What is slightly disturbing to me about the nature of dark angels is their task to lead a person to the nightlands when their sins and burdens become too heavy to bear.   

I definitely agree that the Bran-Hodor connection is about more than some muscle -- during that wight skirmish, Bran basically goes full-blown "Papa Bear" mode. I like the idea that it is a combined effort some how, light there is a long standing connection between the greenseers and the giants. I really like that idea of the psychic link and Hodor's distress might have spiritually called Bran to him. Much like how Bran slips into Summer when he sleeps, so the president of a skin-changer inadvertently being pulled into one of their skins exists.  Given we know that Bran can talk through the trees and his whispers might be audible in the past (as with Ned) then this idea of Hodor having been "prepared" for Bran might be because Hodor has been hearing Bran's voice all his life, so he instinctively feels close to him? 

Either way, the deeper the psychic link between the more tragic it feels by how much the process disturbs Hodor and the risk that Bran's use of him might lead to him getting hurt or killed.

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44 minutes ago, Faera said:

Given we know that Bran can talk through the trees and his whispers might be audible in the past (as with Ned) then this idea of Hodor having been "prepared" for Bran might be because Hodor has been hearing Bran's voice all his life, so he instinctively feels close to him? 

Well GRRM has said that Hodor is only afraid at certain times.  He's most afraid during thunder storms if Queenscrown is any indication. So his condition might be caused by a lightning blast.  The other odd thing about Hodor is that he always hums to himself like he is 'wired' to something only he can hear. 

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Amen @Faera!   Have been checking daily and so pleased to see you out front making your wonderful ideas part of your own conversation.    You've chosen 1 of my all time favorite topics here and I was ready with the very first quote you posted!    Yes, this is a fine thing to discuss with the masses.    Well done!   

Sad part is, I have no argument.   I completely agree with every statement made.   It's clear Bran never intended to get under Hodor's skin in the 1st place.  The skinchanging was reaction not premeditated.  Though our boy Bran does push the limits of skinchanging hospitality later on, particularly in the greenseers' cave, I wonder if this isn't part of the process of forming that knight Bran and Hodor are to become.    As Bran's powers grow is Hodor's reaction changing or are they both changing every time they unite?   I admit that when I began Sorcerers & Swords I was 80% convinced that Brandor would wield Dark Sister.  Although I still haven't abandoned the thought, distinctions between innate magic and learned magic do need to be made.   During this most recent study of the swords it's resoundingly clear that, sorcerer or hunter or rogue, all the bearers MUST BE KNIGHTS.   This is precisely what is happening between Bran and Hodor.  

Directly above our brilliant friend @LynnSreminds us of that humming of Hodor's.  He may well be wired to something else as he is half of this knightly entity.  We have not seen evidence of Hodor's magic, unless it is the fact that he can be skinchanged?  The ability to curl up inside ones'self and allow another to control your body could take quite a bit of talent.   This may be a sort of dance of its own.  

This is such good stuff Faera!  I've been bored all weekend and this is a really nice pay off.   Good job! 

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Hey Faera, glad you decided to go ahead and start this thread! :cheers:

There are loads of things I want to reply to, or just discuss and speculate on, but I can't really get into it at the mo. But "I'll be back!" - Arnie accent here. :D

For now I will bring up two things, one quite minor... which is, I really like how Bran thinks that together w/ Hodor they could be a knight, given that Hodor is [very likely] the great-great-great (dunno how many 'greats' to put here) grandson of ser Duncan the Tall. :)

The other thing is, I think Bran slipping into Hodor is sort of skinchanging w/ training wheels to prepare him for what he'll have to do in the near future. I won't elaborate here, but if you're interested, here's a link to a post I made on the subject a few yrs back. Be warned, the post contains spoilers for Winds

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/106038-twow-spoilers-theon-i-part-vi/&do=findComment&comment=7142979

 

Ah, @kissdbyfire, I think I read the original topic when we were little saplings, before our red leaves sprouted.   I remember this idea and it changed the way I looked at Theon a great deal, as your thoughts are always in the back of my mind.   Who am I kidding, we both know they are indeed my own thoughts now!    Still, it's a nice quick read with the essentials of the idea for anyone who isn't acquainted with the premise.   It just makes a lot of solid sense to me.  It doesn't take a lot of surface scratching to get from Bran and Hodor to exactly where your idea leads us.  This is natural progression.  Looking forward to your expanded comments here, Lady.   

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3 hours ago, Faera said:

<snip>

Anyway, I have actually been really nervous about posting this. So,  I apologise if this feels a little all over the place. :rolleyes:

Why would Aegon let Dark sister go with a condemned criminal on his way to pay his penance at the watch? It is the last surviving sword from Aegon the Conqueror. I figure after Blackfyre was taken to Essos, that sword, the last birthright weapon of the targ family would be kept safe  

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3 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Why would Aegon let Dark sister go with a condemned criminal on his way to pay his penance at the watch? It is the last surviving sword from Aegon the Conqueror. I figure after Blackfyre was taken to Essos, that sword, the last birthright weapon of the targ family would be kept safe  

Do you think JonCon has it?

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1 minute ago, LynnS said:

Do you think JonCon has it?

He may, If varys can pull a baby out of KL during a sack, he could probably get a sword. There was the teaser chapter for dance that had a sword in the chest that Fatty McFatterton sent with short pants en route to Griff and co. Most folks figured it was Blackfyre as it would help confirm part or all of their remarkably elaborate Blackfyre theories. My guess is that it is hidden somewhere. I just can't imagine that a Targ king would allow their birthright to be taken to the wall. Stranger things have happened though

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31 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

He may, If varys can pull a baby out of KL during a sack, he could probably get a sword. There was the teaser chapter for dance that had a sword in the chest that Fatty McFatterton sent with short pants en route to Griff and co. Most folks figured it was Blackfyre as it would help confirm part or all of their remarkably elaborate Blackfyre theories. My guess is that it is hidden somewhere. I just can't imagine that a Targ king would allow their birthright to be taken to the wall. Stranger things have happened though

I'm dubious myself as well.  Unless Bloodraven insisted for some reason, I'm not sure Aegon would gainsay him.  Mormont took his sword to the Wall so there is a precedent of sorts.  Why didn't Rhaeagar have a valyrian steel sword if one was available? 

Edit:  Another possibility would be that Bran receives a sword of dragonglass from the cotf.

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I'm dubious myself as well.  Unless Bloodraven insisted for some reason, I'm not sure Aegon would gainsay him.  Mormont took his sword to the Wall so there is a precedent of sorts.  Why didn't Rhaeagar have a valyrian steel sword if one was available? 

Edit:  Another possibility would be that Bran receives a sword of dragonglass from the cotf.

Now, correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to remember that Jeor abdicated as lord of Bear Island and joined the watch to let his son be lord and his daughter in law be lady of the island. When Jorah ran rather than face Ned, he left the sword and it was delivered to the old bear. 
As for Rhaegar, I have always thought the same thing. Is it lost? Is is hidden away in a secret vault within Maegor's Holdfast that not even varys knows about? Could it be on dragonstone?  When did it go "missing?" 
Now Brandor wielding dragonglass weapons would be sweet 

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Years of research hasn't led to a "pat" answer on the whereabouts of Blackfyre or Dark Sister.  All we can do is guess at this point.   Daemon Targaryan did some very nasty things, including having the heir to the throne killed as well as killing the king's brother, his own nephew, himself.  No one ever took Dark Sister from him.  It's possible Dark Sister and/or Blackfyre were taken from the Red Grass Field.  Aegon V allowing his uncle to keep the sword given to him from the king is as likely a scenario as any other.   I'm certain any king or warrior/knight the king deemed worthy would have born Blackfyre or Dark Sister during the time they've been missing had their whereabouts been known.  They are both distinct blades not easily obscured from identification.  They are both hidden and someone knows where one, the other or both are being held.  

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@Faera, since you see the same thing I see in Bran and Hodor sort of melding to become a "great knight", how do you see the fighting going?   Dark Sister is little and suited to smaller hands.   Hodor is a giant.   Not that I think the idea is absurd in the least, however I sort of envision Bran wielding a blade while he rides on Hodor's back--a sort of double whammy.  Hodor has been practicing his swordplay and is proven quite capable of wielding a big ass sword.  However, the VS swords have a habit of "acting on their own accord".   I'm mulling over your assertions regarding the actual configuration of this "knight" as well as Bran's willingness to actually physically join in at battle.   I think whomever ends up with Dark Sister will have the advantage of the blade's intentions.   

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11 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Hey Faera, glad you decided to go ahead and start this thread! :cheers:

There are loads of things I want to reply to, or just discuss and speculate on, but I can't really get into it at the mo. But "I'll be back!" - Arnie accent here. :D

For now I will bring up two things, one quite minor... which is, I really like how Bran thinks that together w/ Hodor they could be a knight, given that Hodor is [very likely] the great-great-great (dunno how many 'greats' to put here) grandson of ser Duncan the Tall. :)

The other thing is, I think Bran slipping into Hodor is sort of skinchanging w/ training wheels to prepare him for what he'll have to do in the near future. I won't elaborate here, but if you're interested, here's a link to a post I made on the subject a few yrs back. Be warned, the post contains spoilers for Winds

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/106038-twow-spoilers-theon-i-part-vi/&do=findComment&comment=7142979

Thank you...:blush: You wouldn't believe how much I overthought this bloomin' thing before I let it go.

I'm definitely looking forward to hearing what you have to say, "Arnie"! ;)

Yes, I loved you idea that Dunk might be a great-grandfather to Hodor or something (I'm guessing "great-grandfather" since I think Young Nan was probably the one Dunk did the nasty with and I think she's supposed to be Hodor's great-grandmother), for the same reasons you proposed in the Dark Sister thread. It would be interesting if Bloodraven senses the blood or something. Either way, the way Bran factors Hodor into his rationalisation of how he could still be a knight, the way Little Walder mocks Hodor by calling him the "ugliest horse" and Bran's acknowledgement that Hodor could have been a great knight himself... it really feels like they are destined to be together on this.

Hm, training wheels? I haven't read the whole thread but I've seen the initial post with the allusions between dogs and Theon. Personally, I always thought that might a hint that the dogs would be more loyal to Theon between him and Ramsay, leading to Ramsay being eaten by his own dogs. Yet the principle is still the same -- Theon is becoming a dog. His sensitivity to the sounds around him and Bran's voice through the weirwood in ADwD points to Theon himself having some low-level powers of his own.

I think I said in the Dark Sister thread somewhere that if Theon lives it would be nice if the Bran-God makes good on Theon's prayer for a sword.

Spoiler

Though if Stannis kills him before the weirwood with a sword then that's sort of making good on the promise too. He is dying as Theon, after all.

10 hours ago, LynnS said:

Well GRRM has said that Hodor is only afraid at certain times.  He's most afraid during thunder storms if Queenscrown is any indication. So his condition might be caused by a lightning blast.  The other odd thing about Hodor is that he always hums to himself like he is 'wired' to something only he can hear. 

Yes, like going into the crypts. He was only frightened at that one time. If Ned's ghost was hanging around down there as in Bran and Rickon's dreams, he might have sensed it because he is 'wired' into something.

As for the lightning blast...

Quote

Old Nan told him a story about a bad little boy who climbed too high and was struck down by lightning, and how afterward the crows came to peck out his eyes. Bran was not impressed.
- Bran II, AGoT

Maybe Old Nan embellished the tale by having the crows eat the boy's eyes but but a young Hodor was, IDK, climbing the heart tree when lightning hit him or something.

9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Though our boy Bran does push the limits of skinchanging hospitality later on, particularly in the greenseers' cave, I wonder if this isn't part of the process of forming that knight Bran and Hodor are to become.    As Bran's powers grow is Hodor's reaction changing or are they both changing every time they unite?   I admit that when I began Sorcerers & Swords I was 80% convinced that Brandor would wield Dark Sister.  Although I still haven't abandoned the thought, distinctions between innate magic and learned magic do need to be made.   During this most recent study of the swords it's resoundingly clear that, sorcerer or hunter or rogue, all the bearers MUST BE KNIGHTS.   This is precisely what is happening between Bran and Hodor.  

I absolutely agree with everything here. The sad truth might not be that Hodor is being skin-changed when he obviously doesn't like it but that his life always belonged in some way to Bran. By BR's cave, Hodor is no longer fighting him but burying himself away in a spot where Bran cannot reach him... yet they are still aware of each other. When Bran happens across that room filled to the brim with CotF and has his unnerved "Hodor" moment, he feels the real Hodor stirring in his pit... perhaps suggesting that he senses something is wrong and is letting out some sort of "warning" signal. IDK,though, it depends on how much you trust all those CotF.

9 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Why would Aegon let Dark sister go with a condemned criminal on his way to pay his penance at the watch? It is the last surviving sword from Aegon the Conqueror. I figure after Blackfyre was taken to Essos, that sword, the last birthright weapon of the targ family would be kept safe  

I made the same point in the post I made on the linked DS thread.

As far as I can see, there are two realistic outcomes for the sword based on its absence after BR's usage of it; BR was allowed to keep it as Aegon had no real reason to assume he'd never get it back once BR died or it was destroyed beyond recognition in disaster at Summerhall. We go over it a little more in the original thread. The fate of DS changes the likelihood of a character getting hold of the sword (or a weapon refashioned using its metal). Both here and in the original thread, @Curled Finger made a good point to me as to why we cannot possibly make clean cut judgement calls on whether BR kept DS or it inevitably "went down with the ship" with the other Targs -- and perhaps got repurposed.

Ultimately, the Bran-Hodor using DS is really just a fun thought experiment and is an "easter egg" to the Bran-Hodor aspect as far as I'm concerned. I see though two fighting as one whether they use DS, continue to use Hodor's mysterious rusty old sword, or finally use Bran(don)'s Sword.

5 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

@Faera, since you see the same thing I see in Bran and Hodor sort of melding to become a "great knight", how do you see the fighting going?   Dark Sister is little and suited to smaller hands.   Hodor is a giant.   Not that I think the idea is absurd in the least, however I sort of envision Bran wielding a blade while he rides on Hodor's back--a sort of double whammy.  Hodor has been practicing his swordplay and is proven quite capable of wielding a big ass sword.  However, the VS swords have a habit of "acting on their own accord".   I'm mulling over your assertions regarding the actual configuration of this "knight" as well as Bran's willingness to actually physically join in at battle.   I think whomever ends up with Dark Sister will have the advantage of the blade's intentions.   

You are right. It's kinda why I always envisioned the use of Dark Sister as a "last resort" for if Hodor's longsword that they currently use breaks. I see the only reason Dark Sister being introduced at all would be to test Jon and Sam's hypothesis that "dragonsteel" refers to Valyrian steel.

So, their use of it could only be because "Brandor" see the sword, grab it and stab the Other before he realises what is happening.

It's also why I feel that if Bran-Hodor find Dark Sister and use it, they won't keep it. Most likely Bran would give it to Meera who has more need for a small sword built for a woman, especially if her spear breaks. Perhaps a sword exchange will take place? Bran-Hodor use Rickard's sword that Meera finds too heavy (even though they lose their advantage) while giving her DS?

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3 hours ago, Faera said:

Thank you...:blush: You wouldn't believe how much I overthought this bloomin' thing before I let it go.

I'm definitely looking forward to hearing what you have to say, "Arnie"! ;)

Yes, I loved you idea that Dunk might be a great-grandfather to Hodor or something (I'm guessing "great-grandfather" since I think Young Nan was probably the one Dunk did the nasty with and I think she's supposed to be Hodor's great-grandmother), for the same reasons you proposed in the Dark Sister thread. It would be interesting if Bloodraven senses the blood or something. Either way, the way Bran factors Hodor into his rationalisation of how he could still be a knight, the way Little Walder mocks Hodor by calling him the "ugliest horse" and Bran's acknowledgement that Hodor could have been a great knight himself... it really feels like they are destined to be together on this.

Hm, training wheels? I haven't read the whole thread but I've seen the initial post with the allusions between dogs and Theon. Personally, I always thought that might a hint that the dogs would be more loyal to Theon between him and Ramsay, leading to Ramsay being eaten by his own dogs. Yet the principle is still the same -- Theon is becoming a dog. His sensitivity to the sounds around him and Bran's voice through the weirwood in ADwD points to Theon himself having some low-level powers of his own.

I think I said in the Dark Sister thread somewhere that if Theon lives it would be nice if the Bran-God makes good on Theon's prayer for a sword.

  Hide contents

Though if Stannis kills him before the weirwood with a sword then that's sort of making good on the promise too. He is dying as Theon, after all.

Sorry, I wrote that reply in a hurry and maybe I didn't make myself very clear. It's been known to happen! :D

I meant Hodor is Bran's training wheels irt skinchanging other human beings. The post I linked is all about that. In it you can find most of the pertinent quotes showing lots of foreshadowing for Bran skinchaning into Theon when he is brought before the heart tree. There are way too many instances where Theon is compared to/referred to as a dog (and dogs are the easiest animals to skinchange into as per Varamyr's prologue in Dance). Then there's the connection Bran establishes w/ Theon in Dance, as groundwork, so to speak. 

<snip>

3 hours ago, Faera said:

As far as I can see, there are two realistic outcomes for the sword based on its absence after BR's usage of it; BR was allowed to keep it as Aegon had no real reason to assume he'd never get it back once BR died or it was destroyed beyond recognition in disaster at Summerhall. We go over it a little more in the original thread. The fate of DS changes the likelihood of a character getting hold of the sword (or a weapon refashioned using its metal). Both here and in the original thread, @Curled Finger made a good point to me as to why we cannot possibly make clean cut judgement calls on whether BR kept DS or it inevitably "went down with the ship" with the other Targs -- and perhaps got repurposed.

I agree. And I still think it's more likely that Egg allowed BR to keep DS when he sent him to the Wall. 

From the WB:

“AEGON V

THE FIRST ACT of Aegon’s reign was the arrest of Brynden Rivers, the King’s Hand, for the murder of Aenys Blackfyre. Bloodraven did not deny that he had lured the pretender into his power by the offer of a safe conduct, but contended that he had sacrificed his own personal honor for the good of the realm.
Though many agreed, and were pleased to see another Blackfyre pretender removed, King Aegon felt he had no choice but to condemn the Hand, lest the word of the Iron Throne be seen as worthless. Yet after the sentence of death was pronounced, Aegon offered Bloodraven the chance to take the black and join the Night’s Watch. This he did. Ser Brynden Rivers set sail for the Wall late in the year of 233 AC. (No one intercepted his ship). Two hundred men went with him, many of them archers from Bloodraven’s personal guard, the Raven’s Teeth. The king’s brother, Maester Aemon, was also amongst them.”

Egg and BR had a good relationship imo. Not just based on the above, but the D&E novellas as well. And maybe Egg didn't feel like stripping BR out of everything, and that exile would be enough punishment. 

3 hours ago, Faera said:

Ultimately, the Bran-Hodor using DS is really just a fun thought experiment and is an "easter egg" to the Bran-Hodor aspect as far as I'm concerned. I see though two fighting as one whether they use DS, continue to use Hodor's mysterious rusty old sword, or finally use Bran(don)'s Sword.

You are right. It's kinda why I always envisioned the use of Dark Sister as a "last resort" for if Hodor's longsword that they currently use breaks. I see the only reason Dark Sister being introduced at all would be to test Jon and Sam's hypothesis that "dragonsteel" refers to Valyrian steel.

So, their use of it could only be because "Brandor" see the sword, grab it and stab the Other before he realises what is happening.

It's also why I feel that if Bran-Hodor find Dark Sister and use it, they won't keep it. Most likely Bran would give it to Meera who has more need for a small sword built for a woman, especially if her spear breaks. Perhaps a sword exchange will take place? Bran-Hodor use Rickard's sword that Meera finds too heavy (even though they lose their advantage) while giving her DS?

I agree here too. A fun idea, and one that may prove to be on the money eventually! :D

I really like the idea of DS being in BR's possession. Is dragonsteel the same as Valyrian steel? I think there's a good chance they are the same but can't be sure at this point. But having a VS in the cave may come in very handy. Regarding Brandor wielding DS, someone (I think it was @divica) brought up the fact that DS may look a bit silly in Hodor's hand, and that is a good point! I love the idea of Meera ending up w/ DS, but I don't necessarily "see" it... I feel it may be wishful thinking on my part b/c I love Meera. :)

 

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8 hours ago, Faera said:

 

You are right. It's kinda why I always envisioned the use of Dark Sister as a "last resort" for if Hodor's longsword that they currently use breaks. I see the only reason Dark Sister being introduced at all would be to test Jon and Sam's hypothesis that "dragonsteel" refers to Valyrian steel.

So, their use of it could only be because "Brandor" see the sword, grab it and stab the Other before he realises what is happening.

It's also why I feel that if Bran-Hodor find Dark Sister and use it, they won't keep it. Most likely Bran would give it to Meera who has more need for a small sword built for a woman, especially if her spear breaks. Perhaps a sword exchange will take place? Bran-Hodor use Rickard's sword that Meera finds too heavy (even though they lose their advantage) while giving her DS?

Jon and Sam already have Longclaw to test, dont they? 

But if anyone is gonna find Dark Sister it will likely be someone close to the person who had it last. Im personally hoping that Arya gets Dark Sister in the end though. It somehow has her name all over it...

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3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Sorry, I wrote that reply in a hurry and maybe I didn't make myself very clear. It's been known to happen! :D

I meant Hodor is Bran's training wheels irt skinchanging other human beings. The post I linked is all about that. In it you can find most of the pertinent quotes showing lots of foreshadowing for Bran skinchaning into Theon when he is brought before the heart tree. There are way too many instances where Theon is compared to/referred to as a dog (and dogs are the easiest animals to skinchange into as per Varamyr's prologue in Dance). Then there's the connection Bran establishes w/ Theon in Dance, as groundwork, so to speak. 

<snip>

Ah, I see!

Yes, that could be the case. We might have already seen Bran on the verge of skin-changing another human being if the theorists are correct about his "reach" for Hodor accidentally creeping on Meera's skin instead in Bloodraven's cave. I think she's too tough for Bran to ever snatch accidentally and I simply don't see him ever actively doing that to her. Theon is a different case entirely. The dog thing aside, he has been broken down a little so it might make sense for Bran to be able to "reach" him and take control of him. Like you say in your original post, Bran has some very useful knowledge he can pass to Stannis but he's not going to be taking it from those ravens he wants to shut up.

Quote

 

I agree. And I still think it's more likely that Egg allowed BR to keep DS when he sent him to the Wall. 

From the WB:

“AEGON V

THE FIRST ACT of Aegon’s reign was the arrest of Brynden Rivers, the King’s Hand, for the murder of Aenys Blackfyre. Bloodraven did not deny that he had lured the pretender into his power by the offer of a safe conduct, but contended that he had sacrificed his own personal honor for the good of the realm.
Though many agreed, and were pleased to see another Blackfyre pretender removed, King Aegon felt he had no choice but to condemn the Hand, lest the word of the Iron Throne be seen as worthless. Yet after the sentence of death was pronounced, Aegon offered Bloodraven the chance to take the black and join the Night’s Watch. This he did. Ser Brynden Rivers set sail for the Wall late in the year of 233 AC. (No one intercepted his ship). Two hundred men went with him, many of them archers from Bloodraven’s personal guard, the Raven’s Teeth. The king’s brother, Maester Aemon, was also amongst them.”

Egg and BR had a good relationship imo. Not just based on the above, but the D&E novellas as well. And maybe Egg didn't feel like stripping BR out of everything, and that exile would be enough punishment. 

 

Another excellent point. Plus, as I think I've said before, Egg had no reason to believe that Dark Sister wouldn't be returned to his family upon Brynden's death. He was a legitimised Targaryen bastard who had given his life in service to the house.

Quote

 

I agree here too. A fun idea, and one that may prove to be on the money eventually! 

I really like the idea of DS being in BR's possession. Is dragonsteel the same as Valyrian steel? I think there's a good chance they are the same but can't be sure at this point. But having a VS in the cave may come in very handy. 

 

I have long suspected they are the same, or similar, but that perhaps "dragonsteel" was not made by the Valyrians but developed independently by the people in Westeros around during the Long Night.

The big million gold dragons question is -- how will the gang come to leave the cave? It is presented to us that Bran is expected to get hooked up onto the weirwood after BR finally dies, even though he doesn't want to. Of the people in the cave the only one who actively wants to leave it and go home is Jojen. I don't see Meera wanting to leave because 1.) she knows going home = Jojen dying and 2.) I think she would feel guilty leaving Bran there. Then, we have the protective barrier on the cave is keeping dead things like Coldhands and wights out and presumably the Others, too. The only thing I thought might lead to them infiltrating the cave's defensive barrier is them using the underground river system that Leaf tells them not to go down to but Meera, Jojen and Bran-Hodor do anyway... but it's a stretch. In other words, something would need to "smoke them out" so to speak. ^_^

Another possibility is that Jojen somehow wears Meera down and convinces her to go home with him (As you can probably tell by this, I utterly reject "Jojen Paste") and they take Hodor with them, though he would probably be skin-changed frequently by Bran throughout the journey. In that case, if BR has Dark Sister, he would need to actively hand it over to them. Bran might very well think the sword looks stupid in Hodor's hands, too, but it won't matter if they get caught by an Other

Quote

Regarding Brandor wielding DS, someone (I think it was @divica) brought up the fact that DS may look a bit silly in Hodor's hand, and that is a good point! I love the idea of Meera ending up w/ DS, but I don't necessarily "see" it... I feel it may be wishful thinking on my part b/c I love Meera.

RE: characters using Dark Sister, I guess I see it simply as a case of necessity. I've seen plenty of people speculate on who is going to wield these sorts of weapons and very often it's all the "big" characters, which I understand though because I'm sceptical about DS turning up anyway, I tend to focus more on how it could be unearthed in the first place to even be used rather than the end result of "who gets it?". That's why I tend to favour characters in Bran's plot, who I think realistically could find it in BR's cave, getting their mitts on it over more popular choices, like Jon Snow for incidence. While I acknowledge they could then act as a gateway to Dark Sister ending up in the hands of [insert desired character here], it is just as likely they will find it, use it and keep it.If we must employ the "rule of cool", now you have introduced the idea of the Bran-Theon (or "Braneon"!) to me I find myself liking the idea of DS simply being passed between Bran "the Bodysnatcher's" skins. See, now my pragmatism is breaking down! :D

As for Meera making use of it... as much as I love her, feel she is seriously under appreciated (Seriously, I could go on forever about my thoughts on what she represents in Bran's weird little "Five Man Band") and admit it would be cool, a big part of me would be really, really sad if her spear broke because it feels a part of her -- seeing it break would almost feel like breaking her... :crying:

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1 minute ago, Sigella said:

Jon and Sam already have Longclaw to test, dont they? 

But if anyone is gonna find Dark Sister it will likely be someone close to the person who had it last. Im personally hoping that Arya gets Dark Sister in the end though. It somehow has her name all over it...

Sorry, I wasn't really clear. What I meant was that Jon and Sam put the idea out there to us readers that there could be a connection between "dragonsteel" = Valyrian steel, and the payoff could be someone in Bran's team happening upon Dark Sister (since BR is the last known wielder it could be there) and using it effectively against an Other, thus proving the hypothesis is correct.

I'm personally not on the Arya train myself but I've certainly seen it put forward a lot so you're not alone in your hoping. ^_^

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