The Bran-Hodor Conundrum

[Faera]

Just now, Curled Finger said:

Phone posting!  @Sigella, negative.  Jon Boy is badly wounded at the very least and Sammy is far from the test grounds.  Dark Sister really is shaping up to be the test weapon.  

"Phone posting", aha! I thought that was just my thing. 

Back on topic, yes, that's sort of what I meant and in fewer words. Jon/Sam put the idea out there, Bran/dor could prove it correct as an "independent discovery" for us readers.

[kissdbyfire]

57 minutes ago, Faera said:

Ah, I see!

Yes, that could be the case. We might have already seen Bran on the verge of skin-changing another human being if the theorists are correct about his "reach" for Hodor accidentally creeping on Meera's skin instead in Bloodraven's cave. I think she's too tough for Bran to ever snatch accidentally and I simply don't see him ever actively doing that to her.

Yeah. Personally not a subscriber, but I suppose it it is possible.

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Theon is a different case entirely. The dog thing aside, he has been broken down a little so it might make sense for Bran to be able to "reach" him and take control of him. Like you say in your original post, Bran has some very useful knowledge he can pass to Stannis but he's not going to be taking it from those ravens he wants to shut up.

He is indeed. And what will play a huge part in Theon's case is that he may very well give himself up when he senses (or whatever) Bran reaching into him. Helping the Starks and Bran may very well give him some peace, which would be  nice after everything he went through. I think all those bits of useful info we get in Varamyr's prologue do not pertain only to Jon, but Bran as wel. And actually, even more so to Bran when we look at his own chapters in Dance... 

And yeah, that's part of it re the ravens. It doesn't matter how accurate a bit of info might be, no one is going to take it seriously coming from a talking raven. Whatever is going to be revealed to Stannis has to come from a confirmed and reliable source imo. 

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Another excellent point. Plus, as I think I've said before, Egg had no reason to believe that Dark Sister wouldn't be returned to his family upon Brynden's death. He was a legitimised Targaryen bastard who had given his life in service to the house.

My thoughts exactly.

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I have long suspected they are the same, or similar, but that perhaps "dragonsteel" was not made by the Valyrians but developed independently by the people in Westeros around during the Long Night.

Interesting. Had never considered the possibility but the idea is intriguing, I like it!

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The big million gold dragons question is -- how will the gang come to leave the cave? It is presented to us that Bran is expected to get hooked up onto the weirwood after BR finally dies, even though he doesn't want to.

Well, we don't know yet how the whole thing works w/ the greenseers. For instance, we know there have been several at the same time, so there's no need for there to be only one at a time.  We know BR is not gonna live forever, but we also don't know when he'll check out. Bran may be wed to the trees already but nowhere is it stated that greenseers have to be physically attached to the trees. In fact, I find it a lot more likely that they don't. Being physically connect to the heart tree may be something they only do in their old age, so they can live beyond a mortal's lifespan.

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Of the people in the cave the only one who actively wants to leave it and go home is Jojen. I don't see Meera wanting to leave because 1.) she knows going home = Jojen dying and 2.) I think she would feel guilty leaving Bran there. Then, we have the protective barrier on the cave is keeping dead things like Coldhands and wights out and presumably the Others, too. The only thing I thought might lead to them infiltrating the cave's defensive barrier is them using the underground river system that Leaf tells them not to go down to but Meera, Jojen and Bran-Hodor do anyway... but it's a stretch. In other words, something would need to "smoke them out" so to speak. 

Not necessarily... For instance, Bran's physical presence may be required. At Winterfell would be my guess, but who knows. Or something else, say, there's something in the cave that he has to take south, CB, WF, etc.

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Another possibility is that Jojen somehow wears Meera down and convinces her to go home with him (As you can probably tell by this, I utterly reject "Jojen Paste")

Jojen Paste is rubbish.

 

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and they take Hodor with them, though he would probably be skin-changed frequently by Bran throughout the journey. In that case, if BR has Dark Sister, he would need to actively hand it over to them. Bran might very well think the sword looks stupid in Hodor's hands, too, but it won't matter if they get caught by an Other

Agree.

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RE: characters using Dark Sister, I guess I see it simply as a case of necessity. I've seen plenty of people speculate on who is going to wield these sorts of weapons and very often it's all the "big" characters, which I understand though because I'm sceptical about DS turning up anyway, I tend to focus more on how it could be unearthed in the first place to even be used rather than the end result of "who gets it?". That's why I tend to favour characters in Bran's plot, who I think realistically could find it in BR's cave, getting their mitts on it over more popular choices, like Jon Snow for incidence. While I acknowledge they could then act as a gateway to Dark Sister ending up in the hands of [insert desired character here], it is just as likely they will find it, use it and keep it.If we must employ the "rule of cool", now you have introduced the idea of the Bran-Theon (or "Braneon"!) to me I find myself liking the idea of DS simply being passed between Bran "the Bodysnatcher's" skins. See, now my pragmatism is breaking down! 

No, I like it!

And I really like the idea of DS not having to end up w/ one of the 'top 3 characters'. 

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As for Meera making use of it... as much as I love her, feel she is seriously under appreciated (Seriously, I could go on forever about my thoughts on what she represents in Bran's weird little "Five Man Band") and admit it would be cool, a big part of me would be really, really sad if her spear broke because it feels a part of her -- seeing it break would almost feel like breaking her... 

I love Meera too, so I'm all for her getting a badass VS sword! At any rate, I think Meera has an important role to play in future events. 

[Seams]

20 hours ago, Faera said:

. . . despite Luwin's insistence that it will only break his heart, Bran never lets go of his secret desire to be a knight (even in 'A Dance with Dragons' he still laments over it), factors Hodor into his "bargaining" ways to still be a knight, and even acknowledges that Hodor has the right strength and gentleness that would make a great knight of the sorts of stories Bran enjoys. So, there are two sides to this early Bran-Hodor -- the broken knight and his surrogate horse (especially after Dancer dies, he becomes Bran's only form of transportation) and as the replacement "bottom-half". It is all very much the prelude to what eventually happens as well as an allusion to Hodor becoming a knight or Bran-Hodor becoming a knight together.

The only way to truly allow to them become one, singular knight (of course) is through Bran's ability to skin-change.

...

"Bran the broken. Better Bran the beastling. Was it any wonder he would sooner dream his Summer dreams, his wolf dreams?" (Bran VII, ACoK) Yet, by the start of ADwD, Bran has a greater the dominion over Summer, reminding him of their "pack" and mentally scolding him for salivating over Coldhand's elk. There are even times when he "grew tired of being a wolf" (Bran I, ADwD), prompting him - essentially out of boredom - to slip into Hodor's skin instead.

All this considered, it makes sense that the Bran-Hodor dynamic would mirror the Bran-Summer one.

...

Essentially, I want to go over the possibility of Bran-Hodor becoming "one" in the same sense that Bran is "one" with Summer; how Hodor has become (and perhaps always been) an extension of Bran, and why I ultimately feel thematically it makes sense that the Bran-Hodor skin-changing plot might culminate in them wielding fighting as one entity will one day lead directly or indirectly to Hodor's death. In other words, the last question I'm wondering is... will losing potentially being the direct cause of Hodor's demise cause a part of Bran to die too? If they change each other slowly and their souls become more mingled... what other parallels might there be?

I'm so glad you've posted your ideas as a new thread. That wasn't so hard, was it?

First, as I was reading your OP here (and re-reading your post on the Dark Sister thread), I was struck by the possible connection between Lady Dustin's description of Uncle Brandon and Lyanna as "A pair of centaurs, those two" (ADwD, The Turncloak) and your insight that the Bran-Hodor combination could be a knight-horse hybrid.

In addition to the special basket Hodor uses to carry Bran around Winterfell, there is a lot of detailed horse symbolism around Hodor in the harvest feast chapter. As the presiding Stark, Bran rides into the feast hall on his horse named Dancer. He sits in his father's stone chair and drinks from his silver direwolf cup. The music begins. At first, Hodor is the only one who dances. Bran laments that he will never dance. Instead of leaving on the horse that brought him, Bran is carried to his bed chamber by Hodor. Even though there is a lot of imagery in the chapter around the sacrifice of the king (i.e., a symbolic death for Bran), there is this second set clues about Hodor turning into Bran's horse, Dancer. I also see this transitional chapter as a symbolic "bedding" for Bran and Hodor - although their union is not yet consummated (by Bran skinchanging into Hodor), they pass a couple having sex in the hall on their way to Bran's bed so there is foreshadowing. Bran does warg into Summer that evening, so he does consummate his union with his other partner.

Hodor also carries his great-grandmother, Old Nan, once in awhile. He is also a stable boy, so he is already associated with horses and their smell. This may tie in with the notion in the earlier comments that Hodor was destined to complete Bran after he lost the use of his legs; that he "belonged" to Bran all along.

But the centaur idea raises another interesting line of thinking: hybrid beasts such as griffins and sphinxes appear in a number of places in the books. If I had to guess, I might have assumed that a mother sphinx gives birth to a litter of baby sphinxes, and baby griffins are hatched by mother griffins. But what if griffins are born when a lion mates with an eagle whose grandma was a dragon? (Scorpion?) And sphinxes are the children of a human parent who has mated with a lion? In another good thread by @Curled Finger, it became clear to me that GRRM wants us to compare skinchanging with pregnancy; particularly pregnancy that leads to birth of an abomination.

In other words, I think your good catch with the melding of Bran and Hodor has revealed an important sort of rebirth that GRRM wants us to see taking place throughout the books: the uniting of two unlike creatures or beings to give birth to something new. I have been looking at deaths and rebirths over and over again in the years I have been reading the books, usually trying to spot cases where a character symbolically died and was reborn with new qualities. But it never occurred to me to look for the birth of new hybrids as the result of two dissimilar beings coming together, with or without death. Now that you've opened my eyes, of course I can see other examples: The griffins and sphinxes, as I mentioned; Tyrion as a possible chimera; Varamyr Sixskins with his many animal companions; all of the Stark wargs; possibly the Lord Commanders with the pet raven; possibly Tormund Giants "babe" and - of particular interest in considering Bran and Hodor uniting to become a single knight - Gregor Clegane's transformation to Ser Robert Strong.

It does seem likely that Bran entering Hodor is leading to a biological change - either a linking of the two minds in a way that makes them "one," as you put it, or the "impregnation" of Hodor in a way that will lead to the "birth" of an abomination.

But you have also noted that Bran is united with his direwolf, Summer. I think this is another example of the "dragon has three heads" prophecy, except the three heads are Bran, Hodor and Summer. And the result is not a dragon, but some other kind of magical beast - perhaps a perfect knight?

I'll follow up with some thoughts on that next time I get a chance to post.

[Sigella]

2 hours ago, Faera said:

Sorry, I wasn't really clear. What I meant was that Jon and Sam put the idea out there to us readers that there could be a connection between "dragonsteel" = Valyrian steel, and the payoff could be someone in Bran's team happening upon Dark Sister (since BR is the last known wielder it could be there) and using it effectively against an Other, thus proving the hypothesis is correct.

I'm personally not on the Arya train myself but I've certainly seen it put forward a lot so you're not alone in your hoping. 

Well I don't believe Egg would have stripped BR of his sword, I expect Dunk would give him a good clout in the head if he ever did suggest it. 

But if something bad would happen to Jojen, I'd fully join the Meera-is-the-dark-sister-train.  

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Phone posting!  @Sigella, negative.  Jon Boy is badly wounded at the very least and Sammy is far from the test grounds.  Dark Sister really is shaping up to be the test weapon.  

I see, gotcha. I was scratching my head for a while there!  

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, Sigella said:

Well I don't believe Egg would have stripped BR of his sword, I expect Dunk would give him a good clout in the head if he ever did suggest it. 

But if something bad would happen to Jojen, I'd fully join the Meera-is-the-dark-sister-train.  

I see, gotcha. I was scratching my head for a while there!  

Right on!  There are so many possibilities for Bran, Hodor and all the frickin' swords we could and have gone on for weeks about them.  Faera's got the get down on figuring out the swords and this is an extension of her exercise.   Though I would like to see Meera get Dark Sister I am further removed from the idea than I was a month ago.   I think this sword is Bran's. And Hodor's.   But this discussion opens up even more possibilities for Bran and Hodor it's really difficult to put your finger on it.  If Bran and Hodor do become a knight-- a single entity in thought and movement the possibilities are endless.  They will have to leave that cave eventually and I hope they get to leave it together, with Meera and Jojen completely intact.   Right, like that will happen!  

[Cridefea]

On 18/2/2018 at 9:24 PM, Faera said:

<snip>

Anyway, I have actually been really nervous about posting this. So,  I apologise if this feels a little all over the place. 

Oh I'm so happy you posted it! and  I'm sorry I disappeared like that, but I'm really busy these weeks in RL  Even so I've read you, all of you. So I will be back soon! and great posts everyone btw...

[Faera]

 

On 19/02/2018 at 6:39 PM, kissdbyfire said:

On 19/02/2018 at 5:44 PM, Faera said:

if the theorists are correct about his "reach" for Hodor accidentally creeping on Meera's skin instead 

Yeah. Personally not a subscriber, but I suppose it it is possible.

The idea makes me feel uneasy because of all those sad, creepy or disturbing theories that keep coming out of the idea. 

On 19/02/2018 at 6:39 PM, kissdbyfire said:

He is indeed. And what will play a huge part in Theon's case is that he may very well give himself up when he senses (or whatever) Bran reaching into him. Helping the Starks and Bran may very well give him some peace, which would be  nice after everything he went through. I think all those bits of useful info we get in Varamyr's prologue do not pertain only to Jon, but Bran as wel. And actually, even more so to Bran when we look at his own chapters in Dance... 

And yeah, that's part of it re the ravens. It doesn't matter how accurate a bit of info might be, no one is going to take it seriously coming from a talking raven. Whatever is going to be revealed to Stannis has to come from a confirmed and reliable source imo. 

I find myself liking your Bran-Theon notion the more I read. It makes sense for Theon's character as a confessed Stark wannabe who could never truly be part of their family and has been conflicted ever since. Joining with Bran even for a short time would certainly allow him to fulfil that dream.

On 19/02/2018 at 6:39 PM, kissdbyfire said:

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I have long suspected they are the same, or similar, but that perhaps "dragonsteel" was not made by the Valyrians but developed independently by the people in Westeros around during the Long Night.

Interesting. Had never considered the possibility but the idea is intriguing, I like it!

It was just a spitball idea I had while listening to the audiobook, funnily enough. I wondered if perhaps the Last Hero had managed to develop dragonsteel using the dragonglass given to him by the Children of the Forest when he found them. It would be a combination of CotF knowledge and human ingenuity.

On 19/02/2018 at 6:39 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Well, we don't know yet how the whole thing works w/ the greenseers. For instance, we know there have been several at the same time, so there's no need for there to be only one at a time.  We know BR is not gonna live forever, but we also don't know when he'll check out. Bran may be wed to the trees already but nowhere is it stated that greenseers have to be physically attached to the trees. In fact, I find it a lot more likely that they don't. Being physically connect to the heart tree may be something they only do in their old age, so they can live beyond a mortal's lifespan.

The way it is painted, it sounds as though the greenseers lived sickly, short and difficult lives but would "go into" the trees. I always thought this meant they would simply die and add their knowledge to the weirwood that way but I suppose it could mean they were expected to literally marry the tree by becoming one with it...

Having said that, I agree completely. I don't think Bran needs to join with the trees literally in order to do his thing. For a long time I have suspected that Bloodraven being "swallowed" by the great weirwood tree could only have been an accident or a trick. Bran is already having as much (if not more) influence over the world through the weirwood net and he is not connected to it. The quote is:

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"Your blood makes you a greenseer," said Lord Brynden. "This [weirwood paste] will help awaken your gifts and wed you to the trees."
Bran did want to be married to a tree … but who else would wed a broken boy like him? A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. A greenseer.
He ate.
- Bran III, ADwD

It feels like eating the sap of the weirwood, which I admit could contain the blood of the many animals, humans, giants and singers shattered about the roots, is what connects you to the trees. You essentially are eating a bit of its power. (And I will scream and cry if Jojen or Meera or both were in that paste ).

Besides, Bran is an unconventional greenseer because despite being paralysed he seems to enjoy relatively good health and strength. On the journey to BR's cave, he remains strong and alert despite them all being malnourished and probably emaciated. Compare to Jojen, a green-dreamer, who completely starts to fall apart on the journey. 

On 19/02/2018 at 6:39 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Not necessarily... For instance, Bran's physical presence may be required. At Winterfell would be my guess, but who knows. Or something else, say, there's something in the cave that he has to take south, CB, WF, etc

I suppose though I wonder what? It seems strange that Bran would return to the land of politics after all he has experienced. The only place I can think of is the Isle of Faces for that reason. 

As for taking something south, a part of me wonders if Bran remains in the cave this is what would convince Meera to leave and return home with Jojen. I don't think she would want to go unless she absolutely had to since she's always been about "testing fate" and trying to change the events Jojen sees in his dreams.

On 19/02/2018 at 6:39 PM, kissdbyfire said:

No, I like it!

And I really like the idea of DS not having to end up w/ one of the 'top 3 characters'. 

I love Meera too, so I'm all for her getting a badass VS sword! At any rate, I think Meera has an important role to play in future events. 

As I said before, I could go on forever about why I think she might be more important than she's given credit for. There are many ways I could see her being important. At the very least, she's the only one I see surviving until the very end. I'd hate for her to become some "Lost Lenore" type character.

[kissdbyfire]

12 hours ago, Faera said:

The idea makes me feel uneasy because of all those sad, creepy or disturbing theories that keep coming out of the idea. 

I know which ones you mean. Rubbish.  

 

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I find myself liking your Bran-Theon notion the more I read. It makes sense for Theon's character as a confessed Stark wannabe who could never truly be part of their family and has been conflicted ever since. Joining with Bran even for a short time would certainly allow him to fulfil that dream.

I do think Theon will get to atone for his 'sins' and some redemption. Giving himself up to Bran as a vessel is a good step forward in the right direction. But for it to be true and really give him some peace, he must acknowledge that murdering the miller's sons was a vile act, perhaps even more so than if he'd murdered Bran and Rickon.

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It was just a spitball idea I had while listening to the audiobook, funnily enough. I wondered if perhaps the Last Hero had managed to develop dragonsteel using the dragonglass given to him by the Children of the Forest when he found them. It would be a combination of CotF knowledge and human ingenuity.

Interesting. Any ideas on what could have been used as a heat source? 

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The way it is painted, it sounds as though the greenseers lived sickly, short and difficult lives but would "go into" the trees. I always thought this meant they would simply die and add their knowledge to the weirwood that way but I suppose it could mean they were expected to literally marry the tree by becoming one with it...

Indeed.

“Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger,” Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, “and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer.”
“I thought the greenseers were the wizards of the children,” Bran said. “The singers, I mean.”
“In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers.”

I also take it 'inside the wood' to mean joining the godhood after death. That said, we know BR's lifespan has been greatly prolonged by joining physically w/ the heart tree. Maybe it's something they don't do often, only there is the need. Like when you have a sole greenseer left, or very few? It's hard to speculate because we haven't been given much on greenseers and how the whole thing works...

(damn, just realised I'm late and have to run! I'll come back and edit to add the rest when I get the chance!)

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Having said that, I agree completely. I don't think Bran needs to join with the trees literally in order to do his thing. For a long time I have suspected that Bloodraven being "swallowed" by the great weirwood tree could only have been an accident or a trick. Bran is already having as much (if not more) influence over the world through the weirwood net and he is not connected to it. The quote is:

So, @Faera, picking up from where I left off... 

I absolutely agree that Bran doesn't have to be physically joined w/ the trees to do his thing(s), and I really don't expect him to stay in the cave forever. Will he leave and eventually come back? No idea. I tend to think not, but even that is possible. I do think at some point he will go to Winterfell.

Now, irt the bold... well, here I wholeheartedly disagree.

BR doesn't strike me as the type of person who would be tricked into something like that. Or basically into anything!  And I am being serious, not just a Bloodraven fangirl. He has been meddling w/ sorcery and gods know what else from a young age, he's not some naive rookie that suddenly ends up trapped in a tree. Even getting to the cave, I am convinced it was a conscious decision. We don't know when he made the decision and/or became aware of 'something', but still. I think the most plausible at this point is during his tenure as the Watch's LC, but it could have been earlier. Like, a lot earlier. For instance, we know in the next D&E instalment they will go to Winterfell to help the Starks fight the IB. What if BR makes an appearance there as well?  

I don't recall if there's anything in the WB that unequivocally disproves this, but  off the top of my head I don't think so. So, interesting possibility. And actually strengthens my idea about BR knowing Hodor is Dunk's great-...-grandson.

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It feels like eating the sap of the weirwood, which I admit could contain the blood of the many animals, humans, giants and singers shattered about the roots, is what connects you to the trees. You essentially are eating a bit of its power. (And I will scream and cry if Jojen or Meera or both were in that paste ).

Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm not sure though... I think the sap porridge is a key component in enhancing a greenseer's abilities but maybe it's not the only one? I don't know. The fact is, there are too many possibilities at this point, because we have very little actual information. 

(They were not in the paste)

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Besides, Bran is an unconventional greenseer because despite being paralysed he seems to enjoy relatively good health and strength. On the journey to BR's cave, he remains strong and alert despite them all being malnourished and probably emaciated. Compare to Jojen, a green-dreamer, who completely starts to fall apart on the journey. 

Yeah, I know what you mean. And I agree, because Bran doesn't fit the 'not robust' and 'quick years' description we get. Otoh, we also get an explanation... "for every song must have its balance". Being a skinchanger and a greenseer is a lot of power. So they have shorter lifespans to make up for it. Maybe the balance in Bran's song is the loss of his legs and all that entails. 

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I suppose though I wonder what? It seems strange that Bran would return to the land of politics after all he has experienced. The only place I can think of is the Isle of Faces for that reason. 

I still see him at Winterfell at one point or another. But the bold? Oh please make it happen! Pretty please.

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As for taking something south, a part of me wonders if Bran remains in the cave this is what would convince Meera to leave and return home with Jojen.

It's definitely a possibility, but one I hope never happens. 

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I don't think she would want to go unless she absolutely had to since she's always been about "testing fate" and trying to change the events Jojen sees in his dreams.

 

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As I said before, I could go on forever about why I think she might be more important than she's given credit for. There are many ways I could see her being important. At the very least, she's the only one I see surviving until the very end. I'd hate for her to become some "Lost Lenore" type character.

Ugh, I'd hate that too. Don't think it's where the character is going tough. 

There's a great thread called "A Dragonfly Among the Reeds" that I think you would enjoy. I don't have a link but will look for it and if I find it I'll post it here. Or perhaps the thread's author @Ibbison from Ibben can help us out?

[Faera]

On 19/02/2018 at 8:20 PM, Seams said:

I'm so glad you've posted your ideas as a new thread. That wasn't so hard, was it?

First, as I was reading your OP here (and re-reading your post on the Dark Sister thread), I was struck by the possible connection between Lady Dustin's description of Uncle Brandon and Lyanna as "A pair of centaurs, those two" (ADwD, The Turncloak) and your insight that the Bran-Hodor combination could be a knight-horse hybrid.

In addition to the special basket Hodor uses to carry Bran around Winterfell, there is a lot of detailed horse symbolism around Hodor in the harvest feast chapter. As the presiding Stark, Bran rides into the feast hall on his horse named Dancer. He sits in his father's stone chair and drinks from his silver direwolf cup. The music begins. At first, Hodor is the only one who dances. Bran laments that he will never dance. Instead of leaving on the horse that brought him, Bran is carried to his bed chamber by Hodor. Even though there is a lot of imagery in the chapter around the sacrifice of the king (i.e., a symbolic death for Bran), there is this second set clues about Hodor turning into Bran's horse, Dancer. I also see this transitional chapter as a symbolic "bedding" for Bran and Hodor - although their union is not yet consummated (by Bran skinchanging into Hodor), they pass a couple having sex in the hall on their way to Bran's bed so there is foreshadowing. Bran does warg into Summer that evening, so he does consummate his union with his other partner.

Hodor also carries his great-grandmother, Old Nan, once in awhile. He is also a stable boy, so he is already associated with horses and their smell. This may tie in with the notion in the earlier comments that Hodor was destined to complete Bran after he lost the use of his legs; that he "belonged" to Bran all along.

But the centaur idea raises another interesting line of thinking: hybrid beasts such as griffins and sphinxes appear in a number of places in the books. If I had to guess, I might have assumed that a mother sphinx gives birth to a litter of baby sphinxes, and baby griffins are hatched by mother griffins. But what if griffins are born when a lion mates with an eagle whose grandma was a dragon? (Scorpion?) And sphinxes are the children of a human parent who has mated with a lion? In another good thread by @Curled Finger, it became clear to me that GRRM wants us to compare skinchanging with pregnancy; particularly pregnancy that leads to birth of an abomination.

In other words, I think your good catch with the melding of Bran and Hodor has revealed an important sort of rebirth that GRRM wants us to see taking place throughout the books: the uniting of two unlike creatures or beings to give birth to something new. I have been looking at deaths and rebirths over and over again in the years I have been reading the books, usually trying to spot cases where a character symbolically died and was reborn with new qualities. But it never occurred to me to look for the birth of new hybrids as the result of two dissimilar beings coming together, with or without death. Now that you've opened my eyes, of course I can see other examples: The griffins and sphinxes, as I mentioned; Tyrion as a possible chimera; Varamyr Sixskins with his many animal companions; all of the Stark wargs; possibly the Lord Commanders with the pet raven; possibly Tormund Giants "babe" and - of particular interest in considering Bran and Hodor uniting to become a single knight - Gregor Clegane's transformation to Ser Robert Strong.

It does seem likely that Bran entering Hodor is leading to a biological change - either a linking of the two minds in a way that makes them "one," as you put it, or the "impregnation" of Hodor in a way that will lead to the "birth" of an abomination.

But you have also noted that Bran is united with his direwolf, Summer. I think this is another example of the "dragon has three heads" prophecy, except the three heads are Bran, Hodor and Summer. And the result is not a dragon, but some other kind of magical beast - perhaps a perfect knight?

I'll follow up with some thoughts on that next time I get a chance to post.

Wow, there is a lot of interesting ideas in here, @Seams so I'm sorry if my responses don't do it justice! One thing I will say before I attempt my answer is that as a reader of graduate English I loved the parallels you (and @Curled Finger) identified between the act of skin-changing to marriage/bedding and childbirth.

I myself was thinking of Brandon and Lyanna as centaurs, too, when I made the post so it's nice to know I wasn't alone in that thought. While I have had the idea laughed at when presenting it I always wondered if a strong bond between the horse and its rider might indicate a low-level of skin-changing or animal communcation, like the singers and their ravens or the Marsh Kings and their lizard lions. Bottom line, it might be an indication that the ability is not an anomaly in Ned's kids but has been semi-lying dormant for a long time.

Going back to skinchanging = marriage/new birth, in a sense, since it is presumed by Ned that Bran will never have children of his own, the act of skin-changing and joining and sharing his essence - his soul - with his wolf Summer, with the singer's raven (where he can actually feel her presence in there with him), and even with humans like Hodor (and, if @kissdbyfire by fire is correct, Theon, or if other theories I have seen floating around, Meera or even Jon), in a sense marrying them by slipping his skin into theirs and the "child" of that union is how they change each other as a result of becoming one. Haggon likened the taking of a wolf to the taking of a woman to marriage and that "both of you will change". I feel it could be extended to any long term bond between a greenseer and his skin.

I definitely want to explore all of this further and look forward to your follow up on what "Brandor" might be giving birth to, so to speak! 

[Faera]

On 19/02/2018 at 8:38 PM, Sigella said:

Well I don't believe Egg would have stripped BR of his sword, I expect Dunk would give him a good clout in the head if he ever did suggest it. 

Exactly!

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But if something bad would happen to Jojen, I'd fully join the Meera-is-the-dark-sister-train.  

 

On 20/02/2018 at 2:52 AM, Curled Finger said:

Right on!  There are so many possibilities for Bran, Hodor and all the frickin' swords we could and have gone on for weeks about them.  Faera's got the get down on figuring out the swords and this is an extension of her exercise.   Though I would like to see Meera get Dark Sister I am further removed from the idea than I was a month ago.   I think this sword is Bran's. And Hodor's.   But this discussion opens up even more possibilities for Bran and Hodor it's really difficult to put your finger on it.  If Bran and Hodor do become a knight-- a single entity in thought and movement the possibilities are endless.  They will have to leave that cave eventually and I hope they get to leave it together, with Meera and Jojen completely intact.   Right, like that will happen!  

I think it's almost a matter of "When something bad happens to Jojen" since we've known almost from the first chapter that his card was marked at some point.

While, as shown by this thread, I'm most in favour of Bran-Hodor being the most prominent users of Dark Sister, Meera is definitely my second choice (again based on proximity but also possibly character too). She's an interesting case for me. In many ways, she symbolises loyalty, love, and light in Bran's life as a contrast to the more serious and dower Jojen. Yet she there are also hints of a darker edge to her in what she seems willing to do in the name of loyalty and love. She definitely has a "mama bear" mode if her brother or prince are threatened. She seems to have had avoiding her brother's fate at the back of her head, based on her confession to Bran at the campfire, and was flat out in favour of was willing to stab "Reek" in the guts as a means to keep Bran safe from him. Despite being a cheerful person, I definitely wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of her and fear that life experience will potentially lead the huntress down a dark path.

Spoiler

It might even be Hodor's fate that makes her realise she can't stop anything, which finally "breaks the cutie" so to speak.

 

On 20/02/2018 at 0:17 PM, Cridefea said:

Oh I'm so happy you posted it! and  I'm sorry I disappeared like that, but I'm really busy these weeks in RL  Even so I've read you, all of you. So I will be back soon! and great posts everyone btw...

That's fine! I've been busy too hence why this thread took ridiculously long to get out. That, and my nerves.

Look forward to seeing what you have to say! 

PS: @kissdbyfire - no worries! I'll wait til you have a chance to do your edits so I can respond in one big go. 

[White Ravens]

On 2/19/2018 at 0:38 PM, Sigella said:

Well I don't believe Egg would have stripped BR of his sword, I expect Dunk would give him a good clout in the head if he ever did suggest it.

Bloodraven granted safe passage to Aenys Blackfyre so that he could make his case before the Great Council that selected Egg as the King of Westeros.  But rather than honour his word BR chopped off his head - treason.  For breaking the word of the Iron Throne he earned the death penalty but Egg allowed him to take the Black instead.  Egg did the right thing by punishing Bloodraven regardless of the motivations for his betrayal.  It's all about Egg doing the right thing.

If Egg did try to let Bloodraven take an ancestral sword of the Targaryen empire to the wall you can bet that Dunk would have finally given him a clout in the ear.

I agree that Sam's discovery of the term Dragon Steel and it likely being the same thing as Valyrian Steel needs to proven, tested or elaborated on by Sam or Jon but why does it have to be Dark Sister that proves the theory for them?  Jon already possesses Longclaw and Sam might lay his hands on more information about Dragon Steel way down south in the Citadel in Oldtown.  Heck, he might even get his hands on the Tarly blade Heartsbane or even Vigilance, the blade owned by house Hightower. 

 

 

[Sigella]

21 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

Bloodraven granted safe passage to Aenys Blackfyre so that he could make his case before the Great Council that selected Egg as the King of Westeros.  But rather than honour his word BR chopped off his head - treason.  For breaking the word of the Iron Throne he earned the death penalty but Egg allowed him to take the Black instead.  Egg did the right thing by punishing Bloodraven regardless of the motivations for his betrayal.  It's all about Egg doing the right thing.

If Egg did try to let Bloodraven take an ancestral sword of the Targaryen empire to the wall you can bet that Dunk would have finally given him a clout in the ear.

I agree that Sam's discovery of the term Dragon Steel and it likely being the same thing as Valyrian Steel needs to proven, tested or elaborated on by Sam or Jon but why does it have to be Dark Sister that proves the theory for them?  Jon already possesses Longclaw and Sam might lay his hands on more information about Dragon Steel way down south in the Citadel in Oldtown.  Heck, he might even get his hands on the Tarly blade Heartsbane or even Vigilance, the blade owned by house Hightower. 

"Ear"! 

You really think Dunk would condone anyone being stripped of their sword? I don't read him like that, but hey this forum is good proof people don't read stuff the same. 

[White Ravens]

16 minutes ago, Sigella said:

"Ear"! 

You really think Dunk would condone anyone being stripped of their sword? I don't read him like that, but hey this forum is good proof people don't read stuff the same. 

You really think Dunk would allow a traitor to the realm to serve his punishment in possession of one of the most symbolically important artifacts in the entire Targaryen empire?  It's true, people don't read stuff the same.  Of course Dunk would have condoned Egg stripping Bloodraven of his sword, it's what happens when people go to jail.  Jeor Mormont brought his family blade to the wall because he volunteered to go to the wall with honour.  That is not the case with Bloodraven.

[Sigella]

13 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

You really think Dunk would allow a traitor to the realm to serve his punishment in possession of one of the most symbolically important artifacts in the entire Targaryen empire?  It's true, people don't read stuff the same.  Of course Dunk would have condoned Egg stripping Bloodraven of his sword, it's what happens when people go to jail.  Jeor Mormont brought his family blade to the wall because he volunteered to go to the wall with honour.  That is not the case with Bloodraven.

Sure do. Dunk has a rigid sense of knightly honour and thus worldly wealth carries less weight. Like when the Red Widow offered him a fancy horse and he declined it in TSS.

[kissdbyfire]

6 hours ago, Sigella said:

"Ear"! 

You really think Dunk would condone anyone being stripped of their sword? I don't read him like that, but hey this forum is good proof people don't read stuff the same. 

I agree.

6 hours ago, White Ravens said:

You really think Dunk would allow a traitor to the realm to serve his punishment in possession of one of the most symbolically important artifacts in the entire Targaryen empire?  It's true, people don't read stuff the same.  Of course Dunk would have condoned Egg stripping Bloodraven of his sword, it's what happens when people go to jail.  Jeor Mormont brought his family blade to the wall because he volunteered to go to the wall with honour.  That is not the case with Bloodraven.

Egg had a good relationship w/ BR. He only gave BR the death sentence/life at the Wall because it was what he had to do, not what he wanted to do imo. 

[Faera]

On 21/02/2018 at 11:30 AM, kissdbyfire said:

I know which ones you mean. Rubbish.  

I think I even elected the "Bran does this unthinkable and totally OOC act against Meera" as my choice for worst theory. While plausible it just completely is complete and utter character assassination for Brandor. 

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... Theon will get to atone for his 'sins' and some redemption. Giving himself up to Bran as a vessel is a good step forward in the right direction. But for it to be true and really give him some peace, he must acknowledge that murdering the miller's sons was a vile act, perhaps even more so than if he'd murdered Bran and Rickon.

Indeed. While killing children is an unforgivable crime at least the killing of Bran and Rickon could have been construed as a necessary evil to maintain his authority in Winterfell, horrible though it was. With the Miller's boys, they really were just two little commoner kids who were slaughtered along with their mother in a barbaric act of cruelty. Worse still, Theon thinks at least once (maybe twice) about how he had slept with their mother, meaning younger one could even have been his own bastard son. It's a real life reverse rendition of Bael and his Stark son, let's call him "Brandon the Fatherless".

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Interesting. Any ideas on what could have been used as a heat source? 

Heh, I hadn't thought about it that much though I did wonder if there is a heat source near Hardhome. 

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Indeed.

“Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger,” Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, “and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer.”
“I thought the greenseers were the wizards of the children,” Bran said. “The singers, I mean.”
“In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers.”

I also take it 'inside the wood' to mean joining the godhood after death. That said, we know BR's lifespan has been greatly prolonged by joining physically w/ the heart tree. Maybe it's something they don't do often, only there is the need. Like when you have a sole greenseer left, or very few? It's hard to speculate because we haven't been given much on greenseers and how the whole thing works...

I absolutely agree that Bran doesn't have to be physically joined w/ the trees to do his thing(s), and I really don't expect him to stay in the cave forever. Will he leave and eventually come back? No idea. I tend to think not, but even that is possible. I do think at some point he will go to Winterfell.

Now, irt the bold... well, here I wholeheartedly disagree.

BR doesn't strike me as the type of person who would be tricked into something like that. Or basically into anything!  And I am being serious, not just a Bloodraven fangirl. He has been meddling w/ sorcery and gods know what else from a young age, he's not some naive rookie that suddenly ends up trapped in a tree. Even getting to the cave, I am convinced it was a conscious decision. We don't know when he made the decision and/or became aware of 'something', but still. I think the most plausible at this point is during his tenure as the Watch's LC, but it could have been earlier. Like, a lot earlier. For instance, we know in the next D&E instalment they will go to Winterfell to help the Starks fight the IB. What if BR makes an appearance there as well?  

 

I have always been sceptical on this idea that there is only the single greenseer left in existence as despite the rarity of the ability I suspect that Bloodraven might have approached several "dreamers" in an attempt to find a successor.

On the other hand, I see BE getting ensnared either because he was finally tricked, he was addicted to the knowledge it have him and got stuck, or he did it with the knowledge it would prolong his life until he could meet Bran.

If the low-levels of magic in the world has affected the number of greenseers being born into the world, leaving those who might have had the potential with reduced powers or incomplete (like Jojen who can only dream) then it would make sense that BR might see it as his "civic duty" to hold out as long as possible to lure the handful of kids born out to him, or even that he was holding out specifically for Bran - or at least one of those Stark kids. He hints he can see the future so it's not beyond the realms of possibility he foresaw when Bran would be born a greenseer and knew he needed to live long enough to pass that knowledge to Bran.

If he had foreknowledge of Bran's coming then he could have even masterminded ahead of time who his companions would be. 

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I don't recall if there's anything in the WB that unequivocally disproves this, but  off the top of my head I don't think so. So, interesting possibility. And actually strengthens my idea about BR knowing Hodor is Dunk's great-...-grandson.

Frankly, I would squeal like a little girl of BR were to swan into Winterfell to sort those she-wolves. And yes, if he was there in person then he would know face-to-face rather than through his thousand eyes whether Dunk got it on with Young Nan. 

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Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm not sure though... I think the sap porridge is a key component in enhancing a greenseer's abilities but maybe it's not the only one? I don't know. The fact is, there are too many possibilities at this point, because we have very little actual information. 

(They were not in the paste)

 

(Keep saying it, I need reassurance sometimes because a surprising amount of people really believe that creepypasta level theory.)

Weeeeeeelllllllll I guess I'm just trying to explain in my own head why there are so many bones littering that cave. It might be semi-instinctive for them to want to die within the grape of a weirwood so as to join the godhead. I wondered if the sap might well contain the blood of past greenseers - maybe even Brynden's own blood since he is hooked into that tree - as well as normal tree sap. Even if there is 0% blood inn the sap, we also can't rule out a hallucinogenic property to it like shade of the evening. 

As you say, we probably won't know any time soon and this might even be one of those questions that never actually gets answered. Only inferred.

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Yeah, I know what you mean. And I agree, because Bran doesn't fit the 'not robust' and 'quick years' description we get. Otoh, we also get an explanation... "for every song must have its balance". Being a skinchanger and a greenseer is a lot of power. So they have shorter lifespans to make up for it. Maybe the balance in Bran's song is the loss of his legs and all that entails. 

Bran already feels the scope of his loss as he reflects on how he will never be a knight a lot (yet, as I have argued his joining with Hodor is a way for him to live that dream) and even reflected for the first time in the slim likelihood of him ever marrying when facing the prospect of marrying the trees. 

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I still see him at Winterfell at one point or another. But the bold? Oh please make it happen! Pretty please.

Out of curiosity, what do you think Bran's goal post in the series is? Will he return to Winterfell to stay or go somewhere else (IoF for example)? Will he live or die? If he lives, will be lose his companions like the Last Hero did?

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It's definitely a possibility, but one I hope never happens. 

 

Ugh, I'd hate that too. Don't think it's where the character is going tough. 

 

Yeah, it goes back to the horrible Brandor-Meera speculation theories. Last thing I wanna see is my girl Meera getting sacrificed for feels sake and aiding in turning Bran into some woobie destroyer of worlds! 

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There's a great thread called "A Dragonfly Among the Reeds" that I think you would enjoy. I don't have a link but will look for it and if I find it I'll post it here. Or perhaps the thread's author @Ibbison from Ibben can help us out?

This sounds like a job for Google...

I've had a read and I must say it's an interesting idea. Fitting, too, if your Dunk-Hodor connection is true. Funnily enough, as a counterpoint to some of the theories people have put forward about who Howland's wife might be, I have speculated that much like Jenny has no surname and is simply nicknamed "of Oldstones" for where Duncan the Small met her, Jyana lacking a family name (despite GRRM happily running off several crannogman vassals to the Reeds: Fenn, Greengood, Quagg, Peat, Boggs, Cray and Blackmyre) even in ADwD appendix might simply be because she had none to begin with. So, I guess the idea that a child, most likely a daughter, married into the Reeds if Jenny was herself a crannogman and that daughter married Howland's father or grandfather.

But yes, it is rare to read a secret Targ thread that doesn't make me roll my eyes. I like it! 

Also, Jon and Meera...?  Hmm, I honestly never considered that one before outside of speculative "what if Ned found his kids betrothals?" threads. Most people tend to go down the route of Val as the anti-Dany in my experience...

[Belgarad]

Some thoughts on the topic:

If Bran has to stay in the cave forever he could use Hodor to communicate with the outside world.  If the cave system links with Gorne's way under the wall then Hodor and Meera could be led by one of the Singers to reunite with the rest of humanity.  Should they then meet anyone of Jon, Arya, Sansa or Theon they would immediately believe everything Bran/Hodor is saying because they know of Hodor's mental limitations.

As far as Bloodraven possesing Dark Sister, if we believe Stannis' sword Lightbringer is a regular sword disguised by a glamour, and that Bloodraven has the knowledge/ability to create glamours then it is not inconceivable to believe that Bloodraven put a glamour on Dark Sister to look like a regular sword that he then took with him to the wall.  

[Faera]

Welcome, @Belgarad! Thank you so much joining the thread. 

6 hours ago, Belgarad said:

If Bran has to stay in the cave forever he could use Hodor to communicate with the outside world.  If the cave system links with Gorne's way under the wall then Hodor and Meera could be led by one of the Singers to reunite with the rest of humanity.  Should they then meet anyone of Jon, Arya, Sansa or Theon they would immediately believe everything Bran/Hodor is saying because they know of Hodor's mental limitations.

Interesting.

I must admit to being on the bandwagon of the underground river in Brynden's cave will come into play. The biggest indicator of this only came to me personally the other day and may have been set up as a solution as early as 'A Storm of Swords'. When Bran and his friends get to the Night Fort, Jojen makes it clear that he does not yet know how they are going to get through:

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"We should sleep,” Jojen said solemnly, after they were full. The fire was burning low. He stirred it with a stick. “Perhaps I’ll have another green dream to show us the way.”
- Bran IV, ASoS

A few hours later Bran wakes up to Sam and Gilly returning from coming through the Black Gate. Upon asking them how they got through, Jojen says:

Quote

“How did you get through the Wall?” Jojen demanded as Sam struggled to his feet. “Does the well lead to an underground river, is that where you came from? You’re not even wet …”
- Bran IV, ASoS

It is probably an educated guess on Jojen's path that the well must have some sort of water source Sam could follow, even if it wasn't the correct answer. However, for some reason, I had it in the back of my mind when I was reading ADwD when Bran arrives at BR's cave where he consciously thinks of the river there:

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The girl child was waiting for them, standing on one end of a natural bridge above a yawning chasm. Down below in the darkness, Bran heard the sound of rushing water. An underground river.
- Bran II, ADwD

So, I wondered if what truly prompted Jojen ask Sam if he came through an underground river is because he had a dream where he and the others did travel through an underground river, all the way back at the Night Fort. Perhaps this is going to be the way they get back after all? If Jojen had already dreamed of the river, it might also explain why he and Meera went to go and have a look at it, despite Leaf's warnings of the dangers.

As for Bran using Hodor to communicate, that would be interesting. I have often wondered if Bran can speak normally in Hodor's body. The suggestion is that he has to consciously say "Hodor" but we've never really had an incidence where Bran ever dared try and speak through him. Furthermore, he seems to do it instinctively during the fight scene... though maybe even then he is dedicated to "selling" the role, since he's so worried someone will find out. I can only think of one moment where Bran thinks about talking as Hodor: "He wondered what Meera would think if he should suddenly tell her that he loved her." (Bran II, ADwD) I think the answer to that question is that Meera would be freaked out... because Bran is in Hodor.  However, if Hodor's "Hodoring" is a result of brain damage, though, then the physical limitations on Hodor would likely apply to Bran -- it's the same reason why Summer can't speak and the ravens can only say a selection of words, not whole sentences. So, it might be that if Bran tried to speak it wouldn't work.

[Seams]

On 2/18/2018 at 3:24 PM, Faera said:

The only way to truly allow to them become one, singular knight (of course) is through Bran's ability to skin-change. There is no denying the sinister aspects of what their relationship becomes once Bran starts actively skin-change Hodor, taking away his autonomy....

... I want to go over the possibility of Bran-Hodor becoming "one" in the same sense that Bran is "one" with Summer; how Hodor has become (and perhaps always been) an extension of Bran ...

The idea of Bran and Hodor combining to form a "perfect knight" is opening such vast new areas of thinking for me - I realize your thread is evolving in lots of Bran-related directions and I have not kept up. So I will just toss in some thoughts about what GRRM is showing us in the "champions" and "broken men," "mystery knights" and "perfect knights" that are starting to come together in various arcs.

The OP and your previous post on @CF's Sorcerers and Swords thread theorized that Bran and Hodor represent aspects needed to make a complete knight: a strong body and a quick mind. Separately, neither Bran or Hodor could function well in a combat situation. This insight about concocting a warrior out of disparate inputs really clicked with me and helped pieces from other character arcs to fall into place in my mind.

For instance, Qyburn uses mysterious dark magic to make Gregor Clegane's headless body into the perfect member of the kings guard to champion Cersei in her trial by combat. Among the ingredients Qyburn uses to achieve his outcome are Falyse Stokeworth, Cersei's maid, Senelle, and some puppeteers. Ser Gregor is often referred to as a "butcher" throughout the books. He is also associated with a marvelous, jointed wooden knight that his brother, Sandor, tried to play with. When Gregor discovered Sandor had taken his puppet, he pushed the younger boy's face into the fire, disfiguring him for life. So we have women, butchering and puppet (or mummer) inputs in producing the guard known as Ser Robert Strong.

Not surprisingly, I suspect another necessary ingredient will be just the right sword or weapon. There also seems to be a requirement that the warrior is not an actual knight, either because of injury (Bran), gender (Brienne, Arya) or rejecting the institution of knighthood (the Hound). The original model for this ideal warrior is Ser Duncan the Tall. In spite of Dunk telling people that Ser Arlan of Pennytree knighted him when no one else is around, there is no confirmation of that and Dunk has motive to fib so he can participate in the tournament.

I'm sure there are other elements I haven't recognized - symbolic death? a beheading? blood on his/her hands? a broken vow? a ruined home? tragic loss of family? contact with a deserter or turncloak? contact with someone in disguise? an encounter with a "stranger"? a false identity? sexual violence? death of a child? a dog? fire? ice? We may be able to pin down more pieces if this pattern becomes clearer.

The "making of a mystery knight" pattern applies to several - perhaps numerous - other warriors being assembled in ASOIAF using similar ingredients. GRRM is putting together the pieces without us being aware that these warriors are under construction. In much the way that Septon Meribald describes a man becoming a "broken man" after being drafted and then discovering that soldiers and their brothers-in-arms often die from disease or non-combat causes; combat is horrible; weapons, training and provisions are inadequate; hardship can drive a man to become an outlaw and deserter and the man will often forget about home after being in an army for a period of time. The men become more useful as military pawns when they are hollowed out and they forget their past lives.

I haven't read the unsullied chapters for quite awhile, but I bet the unique training regimen for those fighting machines would be similar to the difficulties that go into becoming a mystery knight.

Bran and Hodor aren't in an army, but a lot of the elements from the Gregor story are part of their journey north. Actually, I wonder whether the "mystery knight" that includes Bran and Hodor is not just those two people combined, but is comprised of all of the group traveling to Bloodraven's cave: Bran, Hodor, Jojen and Meera. If some feminine element is necessary, Meera's presence could provide that. The group certainly endures hardship. They end up butchering the elk (and Bran often tastes blood from the animals that the direwolf Summer kills while Bran is warging). The puppet aspect might be fulfilled by Bran's skinchanging and warging - sometimes he is inside of Hodor and no one (except Hodor, of course) realizes that Bran is looking out through Hodor's eyes. Meera's storytelling might qualify as a type of mummer or puppet show. Or the puppetmaster might be Bloodraven, drawing Bran (and Jojen?) to his cave with dreams and visions in order to fulfill a destiny that was apparently foreseen long ago. Is Bloodraven playing the role of Qyburn, making a mystery knight using spare parts delivered by the three young people and Hodor?

Other "knights" that I believe may be under construction are Sandor Clegane, Brienne of Tarth and Arya. There may be any number though - Ser Dontos, Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Daario, Mance.

Sandor kills the butcher's boy, essentially butchering him. He loses his "head," like Gregor, when he leaves his hound-shaped helmet at this "grave" and it is taken up by others. He also has a hole in his face where he was burned. I'm not sure about the mummer / puppet angle, except that he clearly had contact with his brother's wooden knight. I wonder whether the "unkiss" scene with Sansa somehow provided the Hound with the feminine ingredients for his evolution as a warrior? For him, that scene was not so much an "unkiss" as an "unrape." I believe there is a Clegane sister somewhere in the backstory - maybe she died and provided the requisite feminine element for the Hound to become a perfect knight.

Brienne recalls quite a bit of her training with her family's master-at-arms, Ser Goodwin, during her AFfC POVs. He directed her to help slaughter animals so that she would not flinch from killing when the time came. So she has the butcher element. Her nightmarish experiences with the Bloody Mummers probably fulfills the puppet element; her victimization by Renly's bannermen, putting on a show of pretending that they found her attractive, might also qualify. Brienne suffers a wound to her face when Biter attacks her at the inn at the crossroads. I don't know if this is a required element, but the parallel with the injury to the Hound's face has always intrigued me. (If a face wound is not part of the pattern, certainly some kind of injury is common to most of the "knights" that I suspect are under construction - Bran's loss of the use of his legs would qualify, for instance. Ser Gregor is gravely injured in his combat with Oberyn Martell. Perhaps Arya's temporary blindness would fit the pattern.)

I should add that I think Ser Duncan the Tall is also part of the pattern. His cheek is injured in his fight over the diverted water supply. He has a crush on Tanselle Too-Tall, a puppeteer. I'm not sure whether we have seen any butchery in his story, but there are three installments yet to come. Unfortunately, I get the feeling that Egg might be the Qyburn/puppeteer character, and that there is a sinister element in his behavior. (I have some thoughts about previous comments in this thread, speculating about Dunk and Egg's roles with regard to Bloodraven taking his sword to the Wall. I'll share those thoughts in a separate post.)

I've wandered far away from your Bran-Hodor Conundrum, so I'll stop here. This post isn't as coherent as I would like it to be, but I'm having trouble getting my arms around all the possibilities so I figured I'd just write something and see whether it helped to organize my thoughts. Thank you for identifying a really important template in the series. With a little work from better-organized minds than mine, I think it could help us to make some predictions about what will happen in the last books.

[Seams]

On 2/19/2018 at 7:28 AM, kissdbyfire said:

I agree. And I still think it's more likely that Egg allowed BR to keep DS when he sent him to the Wall. 

From the WB:

“AEGON V

THE FIRST ACT of Aegon’s reign was the arrest of Brynden Rivers, the King’s Hand, for the murder of Aenys Blackfyre. Bloodraven did not deny that he had lured the pretender into his power by the offer of a safe conduct, but contended that he had sacrificed his own personal honor for the good of the realm.
Though many agreed, and were pleased to see another Blackfyre pretender removed, King Aegon felt he had no choice but to condemn the Hand, lest the word of the Iron Throne be seen as worthless. Yet after the sentence of death was pronounced, Aegon offered Bloodraven the chance to take the black and join the Night’s Watch. This he did. Ser Brynden Rivers set sail for the Wall late in the year of 233 AC. (No one intercepted his ship). Two hundred men went with him, many of them archers from Bloodraven’s personal guard, the Raven’s Teeth. The king’s brother, Maester Aemon, was also amongst them.”

Egg and BR had a good relationship imo. Not just based on the above, but the D&E novellas as well. And maybe Egg didn't feel like stripping BR out of everything, and that exile would be enough punishment.

On 2/21/2018 at 11:53 AM, White Ravens said:

Bloodraven granted safe passage to Aenys Blackfyre so that he could make his case before the Great Council that selected Egg as the King of Westeros.  But rather than honour his word BR chopped off his head - treason.  For breaking the word of the Iron Throne he earned the death penalty but Egg allowed him to take the Black instead.  Egg did the right thing by punishing Bloodraven regardless of the motivations for his betrayal.  It's all about Egg doing the right thing.

If Egg did try to let Bloodraven take an ancestral sword of the Targaryen empire to the wall you can bet that Dunk would have finally given him a clout in the ear.

The death of Aenys Blackfyre and Bloodraven taking the black seems like stories with a lot of detail we have not been told. We have been warned that the "historians" who wrote the World book are unreliable - they have limited information and/or they bend the facts to please the ruler at any given time - history is written by the winners.

We have a similar situation that provides grounds for skepticism. Because readers of ASOIAF tend to like Ned Stark and to dislike Joffrey, we see the coerced confession and condemnation of Ned on the steps of Baelor's Sept as both false and unjust. We believe we know the real story, that Joffrey doesn't know the real story, and that Ned should have been the regent, not execution victim.

It would not surprise me at all if there is a similar backstory to Bloodraven's condemnation and exile. He really did take the black, instead of being executed like Ned Stark. But I have to wonder whether GRRM is setting up a deliberate parallel and whether Bloodraven's connection to the death of Aenys will turn out to be a trumped-up accusation with someone else masterminding a way to get both Aenys and Bloodraven out of the way.

I have the feeling that the sixth Dunk & Egg story will give us a lot of information about Egg's character and/or his mental health, perhaps even some insights about his ambitions. Maybe he will turn out to be like Big Walder, counting all the Freys ahead of him in the succession and planning his moves toward the throne. The other parallel I have in the back of my mind is Jaime slaying Aerys to stop his plan to burn King's Landing - what if Dunk is forced into the Jaime role, finding himself compelled to prevent Egg, his longtime companion and king, from trying to destroy his own newborn grandson Rhaegar as part of the dragon egg hatching scheme . . .

Keep your eye on Egg's boot, is my suspicion. The signet ring in the boot is very much like the poison mushrooms Tyrion carries in the toe of his boot - a secret weapon. Which brings us back to Bran skinchanging Hodor, an act that Bran compares to slipping on an old broken-in boot.