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limiting lanister influence


Alex Gu

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The only way is to get Robert to stop spending money. Any other serious course of action might result in the Lannisters turning off the gold spigot which the Crown is too dependent on at that point. 

AGOT Eddard IV

Ned was stunned. "Are you claiming that the Crown is three million gold pieces in debt?"

"The Crown is more than six million gold pieces in debt, Lord Stark. The Lannisters are the biggest part of it, but we have also borrowed from Lord Tyrell, the Iron Bank of Braavos, and several Tyroshi trading cartels. Of late I've had to turn to the Faith. The High Septon haggles worse than a Dornish fishmonger."

 

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1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Agree with Renly

This seems the best to me, also. By getting rid of Cersei, her poisonous influence and Tywin's close personal interest are both gone. Then Robert's "royal children" can be raised away from Cersei's toxic miasma, maybe even farmed out to other lords. In particular, I'd like to see Joffrey taken in hand by some no-nonsense lord, maybe Bronze Yon, or Greatjon Umber. Once Queen Margaery has produced a male heir, Cersei/Jaime's incest can be revealed, Jaime removed from the King's Guard (and maybe from life itself), and the innocent children sent home to Tywin, so he can try again.

Maybe Renly wouldn't have made such a bad king, after all. He had a grasp of the politics and the glad-hand approach that a good politician needs. Even if he'd be willing to settle for Hand of King Stannis, things might have been a lot better.

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Good question @Alex Gu.  I don't think Cersei could have been as easily set aside as others here seem to think - it would cause a bit of a scandal (assuming the twincest was not revealed) and Tywin would not take the slight lightly at all.  To reduce Lannister influence, the following steps ought to have been taken...

- Thank Pycelle for his duty then send him back to the Citadel and kill or imprison Varys.  They are part of the old guard and know too much - neither could have been expected to be loyal to Robert first.

- Joffrey should have been sent to Storm's End or Winterfell long before Jon Arryn died - Robert wasn't actively doing much kingin' and Joff could have had a better example of how to be a man and a ruler by being outside of court for a time before returning in his mid-to-late teens to learn at court.

- Diversify the sources of debt such that the crown is not so dependent on the Lannisters.

- Robert has, what, 7 kingsguard compared to a few dozen Lannister house guards Cersei has and the 100 men Ned brought with him?  The gold cloaks are meant to be a police force, so there should be some other sort of royal guard a tier below the Kingsguard comprised of men equally representing the 7 (9) kingdoms.

- If it cannot be Robert Arryn then name Stannis Warden of the East - NOT Jaime Lannister.

- Get Robert to quit provoking Jaime by having him be on guard during his wenching.

- Given the circumstances with Jon Arryn's death, it was imperative that Ned speak to Stannis directly.  Ned knew what Pycelle, Varys, and Littlefinger were - selfish men with their own motives and ambitions beyond protecting Robert.  Ned sort or half assed his attempt to bring Stannis to court and needed to go full ass, getting Robert involved if necessary.

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Lord Arryn should have matched Baratheon swords equal to the Lannisters and made sure the city guard captain was a Valemen he could trust, also speaking of Valeman he can trust he should have brought another Vale Lord he can trust to KL and inform him of his twinces suspicions after all Jon Arryn is old and his death can look natural. If Jon Arryn is poisened his loyal bannerman returns to the Vale and raises the bannerman in Jons name, this isn't a game you need to take precautions before you look into something that could have Cersie and her children all murdered and thus Tywin going to war. If Jons bannerman is killed or imprisoned then the Valemen back home will know something fishy is going on and when Robb asks for help I think not even Lysa keeps the lords of the Vale from joining. 

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3 hours ago, Alex Gu said:

what steps could the hand of the king Arryn or stark take to limit lanister influence in kings landing and in Westeros?

Zero aside of what has been done. The queen, the grand maester, the house guards, a member of the kingsguard are all house Lannister. Unless they were all killed, there is nothing else to be done 

 

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42 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Zero aside of what has been done. The queen, the grand maester, the house guards, a member of the kingsguard are all house Lannister. Unless they were all killed, there is nothing else to be done 

 

I find it ironic that the Kingsguard Lannister is the only one I can think of who was appointed on merit, and not as a sycophant. For that is how they were chosen, were they not? Boros Blount stands out in particular.

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2 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I find it ironic that the Kingsguard Lannister is the only one I can think of who was appointed on merit, and not as a sycophant. For that is how they were chosen, were they not? Boros Blount stands out in particular.

Mandon Moore was a good knight and Jaime considered him the second most dangerous. He came with Jon Arryn.

Barristan Selmy was a holdover (but so was Jaime). 

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2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I find it ironic that the Kingsguard Lannister is the only one I can think of who was appointed on merit, and not as a sycophant. For that is how they were chosen, were they not? Boros Blount stands out in particular.

It wasn't merit though. Jamie was good, but he was put in the guard to slight Tywin and remove the former servant's heir out of spite 

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7 hours ago, Lollygag said:

The only way is to get Robert to stop spending money. Any other serious course of action might result in the Lannisters turning off the gold spigot which the Crown is too dependent on at that point. 

AGOT Eddard IV

 

Ned was stunned. "Are you claiming that the Crown is three million gold pieces in debt?"

 

"The Crown is more than six million gold pieces in debt, Lord Stark. The Lannisters are the biggest part of it, but we have also borrowed from Lord Tyrell, the Iron Bank of Braavos, and several Tyroshi trading cartels. Of late I've had to turn to the Faith. The High Septon haggles worse than a Dornish fishmonger."

 

 

 

:agree:

It's hard to push your banker around when you owe them a lot of money. 

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10 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Would have been better than slowly dying from poison OR watching your daughter be held by the Lannisters and then executed after watching Robert die in front of you.

For political reasons wouldn't be wise, also you can't push people into the drymoat  just because you don't like them.

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15 hours ago, Alex Gu said:

what steps could the hand of the king Arryn or stark take to limit lanister influence in kings landing

Well it is not really Lannister influence, but the Queen's influence. That is just a by product of marrying someone, that certain partners are going to be influential. Robert was not really a hands on King, this would have given his wife the ability to secure the loyalty of their various retainers (and in reality this would be something King's would not really be against). 

And the only person who could stop he influence is the King. Neither Ned or Jon would have been capable of doing it alone, they'd need Robert to be the one to do it. 

15 hours ago, Alex Gu said:

 

and in Westeros?

There is no real Lannister 'influence' in Westeros, certainly not more so than there should be. There is none we of int the North, in the Riverlands Tywin could not count on his own in-laws the Freys for support, nor have we seen any real kind of Lannister influence in any other realm apart from the Westerlands, which they rule. 

 

14 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

 

- Diversify the sources of debt such that the crown is not so dependent on the Lannisters.

They did, they huge sums of money to the Tyrells, Faith and Iron Bank. There are few other lenders with the pockets needed for the Crown's borrowing. 

14 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

- Robert has, what, 7 kingsguard compared to a few dozen Lannister house guards Cersei has and the 100 men Ned brought with him?  The gold cloaks are meant to be a police force, so there should be some other sort of royal guard a tier below the Kingsguard comprised of men equally representing the 7 (9) kingdoms.

The Crown does have many knights, this is something that is overlooked because Robert is not a POV so unlike with Ned, who we get told who his Steward, Captain of the Guards and many names of other guards we simply don't get told about them, but they exist, we see many of these nameless men when Robert arrives at Winterfell

The visitors poured through the castle gates in a river of gold and silver and polished steel, three hundred strong, a pride of bannermen and knights, of sworn swords and freeriders. Over their heads a dozen golden banners whipped back and forth in the northern wind, emblazoned with the crowned stag of Baratheon.

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The Hound went to one knee. Ser Gregor's blow cut air, and at last he came to his senses. He dropped his sword and glared at Robert, surrounded by his Kingsguard and a dozen other knights and guardsmen.

Now the problem is that these royal knights, men at arms and guards are still going to be loyal to the Queen and the acknowledged children of the king an Queen just like the sworn swords of Winterfell are going to be more loyal to Cat and Robb rather than someone like Vayon Poole. 

14 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

- If it cannot be Robert Arryn then name Stannis Warden of the East - NOT Jaime Lannister.

 

14 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

 

-  Ned knew what Pycelle, Varys, and Littlefinger were - selfish men with their own motives and ambitions beyond protecting Robert. 

Regarding Pycelle Ned did not actually know that. It was not until much later, after his fight with Jaime, that he began to suspect that Pycelle was more the Queen's man than he was his.

For all his protestations of loyalty, the eunuch knew too much and did too little. Grand Maester Pycelle seemed more Cersei's creature with every passing day, and Ser Barristan was an old man, and rigid. He would tell Ned to do his duty.

We as the reader get to see Ned reach this conclusion and then take it for granted that everyone else would have already been aware of something that took Ned most of the book to find out. 

 

14 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Lord Arryn should have matched Baratheon swords equal to the Lannisters

Who is to say there originally was not? But Robert is the king of the entire realm and his retainers and knights are more likely to have come from the Crownlands than his younger brother's lands. 

There would have been far more Royal guards in the city than Lannister guards, the trouble is that royal guards, no matter which realm they are from, would be loyal to the King and his family. 

14 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

and made sure the city guard captain was a Valemen he could trust,

I'm still not sure what that would solve? Most Royalist guards are still going to choose the Queen and the new King over a relatively newly arrived Hand from the North. 

 

14 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

 

also speaking of Valeman he can trust he should have brought another Vale Lord he can trust to KL and inform him of his twinces suspicions after all Jon Arryn is old and his death can look natural.

Arryn was still investigating. It is probably against his honour to share this rumour before he knows for sure himself. It is telling that even on his deathbed he simply chose to give a subtle clue about his investigations rather than blurt out the rumour. Pretty honourable act. 

 

 

 

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The Lannisters don't even influence that much in King's Landing, Littlefinger seems to have his fingers in more offices and he was originally Arryn's man. Most of the Lannister influence seems to reside in the King's household and that's because Robert doesn't give a shit and leaves it to Cersei which isn't even that unexpected for a wife, if anything you'd expect more Lannisters at court and holding office. 

As a side note the Goldcloaks, Lannister men at arms and Kingsguard didn't do anything against Robert, they moved against Ned who was a stranger from the North that didn't cultivate any alliances in the city and all of a sudden challenged Joffrey's legitimacy, even without being paid off it would be expected that the city watch and Robert's household would side with the queen and Robert's heir apparent over Ned. 

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