Tommen's fate

[Deepbollywood Motte]

7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Daenerys will burn him alive, with Ser Pounce.

That will help her reputation of being "the mad kings daughter".

[SeanF]

5 minutes ago, Deepbollywood Motte said:

That will help her reputation of being "the mad kings daughter".

The Unsullied will drive them into the Dragonpit, where Drogon will devour them.

[Deepbollywood Motte]

30 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The Unsullied will drive them into the Dragonpit, where Drogon will devour them.

While the Dothraki rape and plunder the city... All hail the great queen Daenerys the conqueror.

[Joy Hill]

1 hour ago, Deepbollywood Motte said:

While the Dothraki rape and plunder the city... All hail the great queen Daenerys the conqueror.

Ser Pounce is reborn as Azor Ahai.

[Chris Mormont]

22 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

"Aye." Malice gleamed in Maggy's yellow eyes. "Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."

This is going to be Daenerys.  Younger and more beautiful, check.  Cast her down and take all she holds dear -Cersei loves power, and Dany will take it from her when she sacks KL. 

[Deepbollywood Motte]

1 hour ago, Chris Mormont said:

This is going to be Daenerys.  Younger and more beautiful, check.  Cast her down and take all she holds dear -Cersei loves power, and Dany will take it from her when she sacks KL. 

Daenerys is the most obvious and that's why I don't believe it's her... it is to obvious. The whole prophecy with golden shrowds, fake dragons, volanquar ect. Is ambihious for a reason, to surprise you... what surprise? That's where the theories come in

I still don't see a violent on page death for Tommen, it would just be a unnecessarry death

[Haus Berlin]

"Not Jaime, nor any other man," said Maggy. "Worms will have your maidenhead. Your death is here tonight, little one. Can you smell her breath? She is very close."

All you need to bring Cersei’s valonqar to life is Melara’s death. If one prophecy turned out true, the other prophecy should too. The valonquar is a suicidal mistrust in your own family and a dangerous trust in your superiority compared to others. Had Cersei killed Melara herself, the prophecy would have never been so strong.

"Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

Mourning won’t kill a person even though this person might feel like drowning. It can kill a person to know that everything what comes after a loss is likely worse than death. Cersei might be tempted to kill herself and not wait for her nightmare to become truth. Her fear of Tyrion then would be the killer, but “I made kings and unmade them” Jaime can be the source for Cersei’s drowning (without rising again, harder and stronger).

 

Dearest @Lost Melnibonean, I’m with you that Brienne is the set up for Cersei’s true downfall. Maybe you like my idea about the course of events after Brienne's stealing of Jaime?

Jaime was already half the mind to return to King’s Landing to guard his king and, after Ser Illyn Payne’s suggestion, to get rid of Cersei. Only he had no plan how. Dwelling in the woods is inspiring for most people and surely, if Brienne succeeds in winning over the Brotherhood and if the news of King’s Landing reach Jaime (Kevan and Pycelle dead, the trials), this helps the ripening of plans somewhat. With Jaime gone, Cersei can have his army all for herself and this leaves the Riverlands to its outlaws. Its geographically advantageous position enables Jaime to reach Highgarden safely, where he as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard offers support against the Ironborn, while Cersei stalemates the politically dominating opponent in King’s Landing. Jaime sees that situation as a threat to the king’s safety and asks Ser Loras to again act as ghost (only this time as himself’s) so that Tommen flees with his idol in all secrecy. Again the Riverlands guarantee safe conduct to Highgarden and Jaime is reunited with his king. Because of some hints Loras had been told to leave, Cersei believes Tommen to be in Casterly Rock, together with Jaime. When she reaches Casterly Rock, the lioness not only finds herself alone, but trapped between the bannerless Riverlands and belittling Highgarden. Because she doesn’t know whether Jaime still dwells in the Riverlands with Brienne or whether he is a hostage of Highgarden alongside with Tommen, Cersei can't command the Lannister army to strike. In addition the Ironborn are driven off north, heading for Casterly Rock.
If it were not for Aegon, Jaime’s plan would have been a way to settle King’s Landing’s peace outside of King’s Landing. But with the Targaryen bachelor in sight, the Tyrells annul Tommen’s marriage and set Margaery up as a direct competitor to Myrcella, who is also looking for a marriage to the real heir to the throne. Jaime then has to change his plan. In exchange for the consent of a Great Council, he offers Tommen to Dorne. Cersei on the other hand has her own idea how to save Tommen. In King’s Landing she stumbled over it on the book page where dead Pycelle was found and Casterly Rock provided her with further hints: Aerys II was doubly wed to Joanna. Publicly conceding the incest, Cersei insists that Aegon is a fake in comparison to Tommen. Jaime now makes use of his image as Kingslayer, spreading the rumor of Tommen’s death when Tommen truly only signed an abdication as king. Cersei uses the Ironborn to kill the fake king Aegon before Daenerys' arrival, but dreads Tyrion's return too. As a Targaryen Cersei lost her claim on Casterly Rock and King’s Landing is devastated after the Ironborn and the Golden Company had their quarrel over it. Believing that all her children were killed and that all is taken from her, Cersei ends her life before Tyrion would do it. But Tommen might get away lucky. It may be as the Elder Brother said, that Brienne never returns to her father but with a sword on a shattered shield, but Tommen’s kittens can sing to her father and grace his hall and bear him grandkittens, if Tommen proves to be strong and gallant enough to gave up his name and all authority to stay alive. Tarth’s succession is already dubious enough with Ser Duncan the Tall, isn’t it?
… or would you rather prefer Tommen warging his cats in order to stay alive, true lion cub he is? You get my notion. Tommen stays alive to prove that prophecies are true only to their believers.

 

Thanks for all the fun and my warmest welcome, dear @AmberEmpress.

[AmberEmpress]

@Haus Berlin thanks very much. I've been lurking for a while now and there are some really good posts here.

I agree that prophecies in asoiaf are not set in stone. I do believe Maggy's prophecy will come true because of how it affected Cersei. She will ironically fulfill the prophecy by trying to avoid it.

Tommen will likely perish in Winds and Cersei's actions will lead to his demise. Which is sad as he's my favourite child character in the series.

[Lord Lannister]

I get the feeling the Sand Snakes are going to poison Tommen as well. Too many references to Tommen using food tasters in Feast & Dance.  Assuming she survives her conflict with the Faith and destroys them, Cersei would be the governing force in King's Landing until her own endgame.

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Haus Berlin said:

"Not Jaime, nor any other man," said Maggy. "Worms will have your maidenhead. Your death is here tonight, little one. Can you smell her breath? She is very close."

All you need to bring Cersei’s valonqar to life is Melara’s death. If one prophecy turned out true, the other prophecy should too. The valonquar is a suicidal mistrust in your own family and a dangerous trust in your superiority compared to others. Had Cersei killed Melara herself, the prophecy would have never been so strong.

"Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

Mourning won’t kill a person even though this person might feel like drowning. It can kill a person to know that everything what comes after a loss is likely worse than death. Cersei might be tempted to kill herself and not wait for her nightmare to become truth. Her fear of Tyrion then would be the killer, but “I made kings and unmade them” Jaime can be the source for Cersei’s drowning (without rising again, harder and stronger).

 

Dearest @Lost Melnibonean, I’m with you that Brienne is the set up for Cersei’s true downfall. Maybe you like my idea about the course of events after Brienne's stealing of Jaime?

Jaime was already half the mind to return to King’s Landing to guard his king and, after Ser Illyn Payne’s suggestion, to get rid of Cersei. Only he had no plan how. Dwelling in the woods is inspiring for most people and surely, if Brienne succeeds in winning over the Brotherhood and if the news of King’s Landing reach Jaime (Kevan and Pycelle dead, the trials), this helps the ripening of plans somewhat. With Jaime gone, Cersei can have his army all for herself and this leaves the Riverlands to its outlaws. Its geographically advantageous position enables Jaime to reach Highgarden safely, where he as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard offers support against the Ironborn, while Cersei stalemates the politically dominating opponent in King’s Landing. Jaime sees that situation as a threat to the king’s safety and asks Ser Loras to again act as ghost (only this time as himself’s) so that Tommen flees with his idol in all secrecy. Again the Riverlands guarantee safe conduct to Highgarden and Jaime is reunited with his king. Because of some hints Loras had been told to leave, Cersei believes Tommen to be in Casterly Rock, together with Jaime. When she reaches Casterly Rock, the lioness not only finds herself alone, but trapped between the bannerless Riverlands and belittling Highgarden. Because she doesn’t know whether Jaime still dwells in the Riverlands with Brienne or whether he is a hostage of Highgarden alongside with Tommen, Cersei can't command the Lannister army to strike. In addition the Ironborn are driven off north, heading for Casterly Rock.
If it were not for Aegon, Jaime’s plan would have been a way to settle King’s Landing’s peace outside of King’s Landing. But with the Targaryen bachelor in sight, the Tyrells annul Tommen’s marriage and set Margaery up as a direct competitor to Myrcella, who is also looking for a marriage to the real heir to the throne. Jaime then has to change his plan. In exchange for the consent of a Great Council, he offers Tommen to Dorne. Cersei on the other hand has her own idea how to save Tommen. In King’s Landing she stumbled over it on the book page where dead Pycelle was found and Casterly Rock provided her with further hints: Aerys II was doubly wed to Joanna. Publicly conceding the incest, Cersei insists that Aegon is a fake in comparison to Tommen. Jaime now makes use of his image as Kingslayer, spreading the rumor of Tommen’s death when Tommen truly only signed an abdication as king. Cersei uses the Ironborn to kill the fake king Aegon before Daenerys' arrival, but dreads Tyrion's return too. As a Targaryen Cersei lost her claim on Casterly Rock and King’s Landing is devastated after the Ironborn and the Golden Company had their quarrel over it. Believing that all her children were killed and that all is taken from her, Cersei ends her life before Tyrion would do it. But Tommen might get away lucky. It may be as the Elder Brother said, that Brienne never returns to her father but with a sword on a shattered shield, but Tommen’s kittens can sing to her father and grace his hall and bear him grandkittens, if Tommen proves to be strong and gallant enough to gave up his name and all authority to stay alive. Tarth’s succession is already dubious enough with Ser Duncan the Tall, isn’t it?
… or would you rather prefer Tommen warging his cats in order to stay alive, true lion cub he is? You get my notion. Tommen stays alive to prove that prophecies are true only to their believers.

 

Thanks for all the fun and my warmest welcome, dear @AmberEmpress.

Maybe... I don't see it happening that way, but maybe. 

[White Ravens]

On 2/21/2018 at 11:38 AM, AmberEmpress said:

How do you all think will he die? Will he live long enough to finally outlaw beets?

GRRM knows how Tommen will die?  But I truly hope that he fulfills his goal of outlawing beets.  Those things are vile!

[Lady Blizzardborn]

18 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Nymeria will kill Tommon for sure you dont introduce a beautiful spy with skills in poison and hidden blades to have her sit at the small council meeting bettering the realm. 

Tyene is the one who uses poison, not Lady Nym.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

4 hours ago, AmberEmpress said:

@Haus Berlin thanks very much. I've been lurking for a while now and there are some really good posts here.

I agree that prophecies in asoiaf are not set in stone. I do believe Maggy's prophecy will come true because of how it affected Cersei. She will ironically fulfill the prophecy by trying to avoid it.

Tommen will likely perish in Winds and Cersei's actions will lead to his demise. Which is sad as he's my favourite child character in the series.

Oh! A new person! *waves* Hi!

Yep. Classic self-fulfilling prophecy stuff.

11 hours ago, Joy Hill said:

Ser Pounce is reborn as Azor Ahai.

Works for me.

[zandru]

On 2/21/2018 at 0:50 PM, John Suburbs said:

Tommen will die, probably through some cause by Cersei either accidentally or deliberately, then he will rise as a blue-eyed wight and become the valonqar who wraps his hands around her pale, white throat, which is the wights' preferred method of killing.

Of all the possible "valonqars" that people have named, I think this is the first time I've seen Tommen on the list. But he IS Joffrey's "little brother." Interesting idea!

[John Suburbs]

4 hours ago, zandru said:

Of all the possible "valonqars" that people have named, I think this is the first time I've seen Tommen on the list. But he IS Joffrey's "little brother." Interesting idea!

If you look at the full exchange, it was to a question about Cersei's children:
 

Quote

 

Cersei: Will the king and I have children?

Maggy: Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds, she said. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.

 

So when she talks about the valonqar (not a valonqar or your valonqar), it is in reference to the children Cersei will have with Robert, and Tommen is the valonqar of that group. If the valonqar is Tyrion or Jaime or Stannis or any other little brother, then why is Maggy bringing it up in an answer to a specific question about Cersei's children, not her death?

And since Tommen will receive a golden shroud first, then it stands to reason that he will choke her after he has already died. And wights kill people by choking them.

The only puzzling phrase is "when your tears have drowned you". Is this just hyperbole for her grief? Or are we to infer that Cersei will have already died as well (Tears of Lys, perhaps) and been resurrected, mayhaps by Qyburn? Is this the reason for her "pale white throat"?

 

[Therae]

19 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

 

And since Tommen will receive a golden shroud first, then it stands to reason that he will choke her after he has already died. And wights kill people by choking them.

The only puzzling phrase is "when your tears have drowned you". Is this just hyperbole for her grief? Or are we to infer that Cersei will have already died as well (Tears of Lys, perhaps) and been resurrected, mayhaps by Qyburn? Is this the reason for her "pale white throat"?

 

Wait, hang on. Maggy doesn't ever actually say that her three golden-crowned, golden-shrouded children will predecease her. I never actually noticed that before, but, really, Maggy never tells Cersei she is going to see all three of her offspring in those shrouds herself. She just says they will all have gold crowns and gold shrouds. The only thing she explicitly provides in order are that 1. Cersei's tears will drown her, and 2. the valonquar will choke the life from her.

So it could be Tommen. Interesting thought.

N.B.: I agree with the many here who expect Cersei will cause his death by trying to prevent it.

[John Suburbs]

35 minutes ago, Therae said:

Wait, hang on. Maggy doesn't ever actually say that her three golden-crowned, golden-shrouded children will predecease her. I never actually noticed that before, but, really, Maggy never tells Cersei she is going to see all three of her offspring in those shrouds herself. She just says they will all have gold crowns and gold shrouds. The only thing she explicitly provides in order are that 1. Cersei's tears will drown her, and 2. the valonquar will choke the life from her.

So it could be Tommen. Interesting thought.

N.B.: I agree with the many here who expect Cersei will cause his death by trying to prevent it.

True enough, I guess, although I tend to think the order of the answer as given corresponds to the order of events. If her drowning in tears is referring to her grief than I can't imagine what would be more devastating than the loss of all three of her children, and with them any grip on power that she hoped to maintain. And if the valonqar, whoever it is, chokes the life from her before Tommen and/or Myrcella are dead, it kind of takes the sting out of the prophecy; as in, Cersei will be murdered, but then Tommen will go on to a glorious decades-long reign and die comfortably of old age and be covered with a golden shroud? Doesn't fit. Cersei is being a real bee-otch to Maggy so Maggy is giving her the hard truth: you will see you children die and the "little brother" (which, among her children, is Tommen) will then choke her to death.

[Therae]

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

True enough, I guess, although I tend to think the order of the answer as given corresponds to the order of events. If her drowning in tears is referring to her grief than I can't imagine what would be more devastating than the loss of all three of her children, and with them any grip on power that she hoped to maintain. And if the valonqar, whoever it is, chokes the life from her before Tommen and/or Myrcella are dead, it kind of takes the sting out of the prophecy; as in, Cersei will be murdered, but then Tommen will go on to a glorious decades-long reign and die comfortably of old age and be covered with a golden shroud? Doesn't fit. Cersei is being a real bee-otch to Maggy so Maggy is giving her the hard truth: you will see you children die and the "little brother" (which, among her children, is Tommen) will then choke her to death.

Oh, I always thought so, as well--to the point that I seriously only just noticed that it isn't the literal text--and I still expect it will turn out that way (i.e., Cersei dies after all three children--I won't even venture to guess the identity of the valonquar), but it's a bit intriguing that it ain't necessarily so (though I am perfectly willing to bet the farm I don't have that whatever else is meant, Tommen will not, alas, make it to puberty).

And of course, as possibilities go, < speculation! >  Myrcella dies, Tommen dies, Cersei (who has lost her last opportunity to rule through her children) in her desperation gets Qyburn to Robert Strong him, unTommen goes awry (or maybe aright, considering how utterling f'ing horrid she's been to him since he became king) and chokes her to death... < /speculation! > I wouldn't ask for my money back if it worked out like that.

As for her grief, though, I genuinely don't think those would be maternal tears mourning the loss of children; with Cersei, it would be the loss of even the slightest pretense of a claim to rule through them.

[Prince of the North]

2 hours ago, Therae said:

Oh, I always thought so, as well--to the point that I seriously only just noticed that it isn't the literal text--and I still expect it will turn out that way (i.e., Cersei dies after all three children--I won't even venture to guess the identity of the valonquar), but it's a bit intriguing that it ain't necessarily so (though I am perfectly willing to bet the farm I don't have that whatever else is meant, Tommen will not, alas, make it to puberty).

And of course, as possibilities go, < speculation! >  Myrcella dies, Tommen dies, Cersei (who has lost her last opportunity to rule through her children) in her desperation gets Qyburn to Robert Strong him, unTommen goes awry (or maybe aright, considering how utterling f'ing horrid she's been to him since he became king) and chokes her to death... < /speculation! > I wouldn't ask for my money back if it worked out like that.

As for her grief, though, I genuinely don't think those would be maternal tears mourning the loss of children; with Cersei, it would be the loss of even the slightest pretense of a claim to rule through them.

Completely agreed.  Just speculating, but for now I think Varys will be the one to kill Tommen (or arrange it or whatever) when he feels he needs to sow that last bit of chaos and instability in Kings Landing.  I think Cercei will totally crack then for the reason you describe and that will help pave the way for his chosen new ruler...Daenaerys Targaryen!   *gasp*  Not fAegon Blackfyre!

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, Therae said:

As for her grief, though, I genuinely don't think those would be maternal tears mourning the loss of children; with Cersei, it would be the loss of even the slightest pretense of a claim to rule through them.

I'm not so sure about this. I think she still loves her children. She loves power too, though, but she would not be any different from any other noble in using her children to enhance her own power. But I think she is capable of genuine love for her children, much more so than her own father ever felt for her.