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Is The Concept Of The Night's Watch Obsolete?


The Sunland Lord

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On 3/3/2018 at 0:52 PM, Leo of House Cartel said:

Sometimes, affairs of the heart must come before affairs of the rule book. 

And that leads to disaster.  People who think with their emotions do not do well in a leadership position.  Taking Arya away from Ramsay with the intentions of sending her where her husband can't find her was a poor leadership decision.  It broke the rules of the watch.  It is oathbreaking.  But those are not the biggest issues with what Jon did.  It started a war with the Boltons is the big problem. 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 3/3/2018 at 0:14 PM, Nowy Tends said:

 

Ramsay is a cancer, any attempt to remove him is desirable, justified and legal.

No it's not.  Jon is a sworn brother of the Night's Watch.  His job requires him to stay neutral.  He was wrong to get his fake Arya out of Ramsay's hands.  Jon had no right to do that.  

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There's a lot of scorn being heaped on Jon for wanting to save fArya, and I think there's a parallel to an earlier discussion with other players:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Davos V

"Your Grace," said Davos, "the cost . . ."

"I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning . . . burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh and turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?" The king moved, so his shadow fell upon King's Landing. "If Joffrey should die . . . what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?"

"Everything," said Davos, softly.

It's the choice between duty and humanity.

Or put another way 'What does it profit a man if he should gain the whole world, but lose his soul?'

Give me the man who can keep his soul.

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2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

So what if Jeyne Arya (I made that up since Jeyne Poole is impersonating Arya) reached Castle Black before the letter? Could she be sheltered there? Or would she be shuffled around with no place to rest?

I guess Jon (who knows her, as she was living in Winterfell) would send her to the fort he repopulated with the spearwifes; I can't see him kicking her out in the blizzard…

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It's a Morton's Fork; either Ramsay attacks and Castle Black is taken by the Boltons, who have even less mind to defend against the wights, or Jon breaks his oath of neutrality and takes out the threat before the Watch is destroyed. Either way, he's screwed.

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On ‎2‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 0:22 PM, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

The Night's Watch shows favoritism towards the noble born and noble bastards.  It's not the same as the democracy and equal opportunity that we enjoy today.  But by their standards, it is a place where a farmer's son can rise to the ranks and become an officer.  It's a place where a man gets what he deserves in the end. 

Nobles and noble bastards are more likely to be literate and more likely to have military training and and leadership experience, or at the very least, immersive exposure to the same.Although it is an egalitarian organization, they need to be practical as well.  It is logical to offer command positions to those more qualified, at least in  the first round of picks.

  The fact that smallfolk can and have risen to high officer ranks suggests that the Night's Watch itself is in fact less elitist and less bound to feudal class rules than the rest of the Realms, on average.

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On 24/03/2018 at 11:30 AM, Rufus Snow said:

There's a lot of scorn being heaped on Jon for wanting to save fArya, and I think there's a parallel to an earlier discussion with other players:

It's the choice between duty and humanity.

Or put another way 'What does it profit a man if he should gain the whole world, but lose his soul?'

Give me the man who can keep his soul.

Duty is a comfy hidey-hole for the self-righteous and holier than thou pricks who stand by and let horrible things happen. But hey, they stick to their vows! :rolleyes:

Like the KG who dutifully stood by and let Aerys rape and savage Rhaella. Another good example is Dunk, who is honourable but not dutiful. Had he been dutiful, Tanselle would probably get more than just broken fingers. 

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I think this is a great topic, and apart from the inevitable detours into Jon-Ramsay-Bowen circle jerks, I always love the discussion this generates.

 None of the below is an entirely original idea of mine but a combination of my ideas and things I've read here previously.

 When you say "concept" of the Nights Watch that can mean several different things to various people.  It could refer to the original reason for its existence. It could be referring to it's viability as a  continuing organization in the present time frame of the story.  Maybe it refers to the current Watch's actual performance against it's perceived goals or adherence to it's historical traditions.

 That's a lot of ground to cover so I'll stick to just the first point for now.

For purposes of this argument I am going to make several assumptions.  

1. "Magic" is real in the world of ASoIaF.

2. The Wall was built using magic.

3.  The Wall has supernatural properties which rely on magic to function. (Whether it be ancient magic or present magic).

 

 Now to my main point. In the series we see multiple examples of magic being fueled  by human sacrifice.  Assuming that  the following examples are actual displays of magic, here are several.

Azor Ahai needed Nissa Nissa's life to forge Lightbringer. Mirri MazDur used Danny's unborn child to to "heal" Khal Drogo.  Vaerys's tormentor used his loin chops to contact The Voice in the Flame. Maggi the Grog sucked Cersei's blood to tell her future. Melissandrea uses blood and life essence ( semen ) make shadow babies and various other shenanigans.  Mirri MazDur's life paid for quickening of Dany's dragon eggs.  Greenseers feed themselves to the Weirwood.  The Old Gods demand blood in various forms, such as punishments and rituals forming parts of the Old Ways.  I strongly suspect that the Bolton flaying heritage has ties to blood magic as well.

I submit that the tradition of giving one's life to the Nights Watch is a form of human sacrifice, and possibly necessary to keep The Wall functioning.

 This may also be why desertion requires immediate death. 

I also imagine that in ancient times this was plainly understood , and that understanding survived the millenia in the form of Northern / First Men traditions finding honor in serving.

 

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2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Duty is a comfy hidey-hole for the self-righteous and holier than thou pricks who stand by and let horrible things happen. But hey, they stick to their vows! :rolleyes:

Like the KG who dutifully stood by and let Aerys rape and savage Rhaella. Another good example is Dunk, who is honourable but not dutiful. Had he been dutiful, Tanselle would probably get more than just broken fingers. 

I knew when I hit 'submit' that duty wasn't the word I wanted, but the little grey cells froze when asked for a better word... I was trying to raise the point Davos made (which you elided over seamlessly), as he seems to be a torch-bearer for the George's sense of morality, in which I believe he's indicating that a willingness to sacrifice the known individual in favour of an abstract concept of the 'greater good' (however that's framed) indicates a loss of humanity. I know I'm not expressing it clearly, I'm still wrestling with the idea myself :(

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