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Will Dany's Dragons lay eggs?


MaesterFredson

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19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Again, perhaps those 'dead dragon eggs' were never dead, after all. Dany feels they are alive, doesn't she? If the wildfire spells can work again now that dragons are in the world again, why can't dormant dragon eggs awake and hatch? It would make sense in the context of the theme.

I think they were dead. It took a fire and blood to hatch them. 

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon's parentage won't be proven by as arbitrary a feature as him jumping one of Dany's dragons. That wouldn't prove that he is Rhaegar's son by Lyanna, it would merely be a strong indication that he had at least one dragonlord ancestor somewhere down his family line - and it could be rather far down in his family line.

Not to mention that Jon also happens to be a skinchanger. Don't you think a skinchanger could also bend a dragon to his will? Or don't you think that people are going to be inclined to believe that Jon claimed his dragon as a skinchanger even if he did not do it that way?

If Jon's ancestry is going to serve a narrative purpose it will do so because people are actually going to believe Howland, Wylla, the Daynes, Bran, or whoever else is going to come out with this story.

And that, in turn, might cause him try to mount one of the dragons.

There is precedent for it with Addam of Hull being accepted into House Velaryon after mounting Seasmoke. The Starks never intermarried with the Targaryens or any family south of the Neck minus the Blackwoods, and thus wouldn't have married into families that intermarried with House Targaryen. Howland Reed and the Daynes would also provide their word that Rhaegar is Jon's father. 

How many people  actually know Jon is a skinchanger? The answer is no one south of the Gift. 

I think he would mount a dragon posed as a challenge by Dany. If he refuses, he pretty much sends the statement that he isn't a Targaryen, and if he tries he could lose his life, removing him as a pretender. That would appear to be the most convenient way to be rid of him for Dany. 

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Again, there was more than enough meat and pretty much nothing to do. Perhaps this dragons was a larger hatchling than Dany's? Or perhaps it grew faster than hers. Drogon does grow faster than Viserion and Rhaegal, too, and it would have had access to a quantity of charred Dany's dragons didn't have. They didn't eat anything for quite some time because Dany only remembered after a time that dragons only eat charred meat. And it is not that they had a lot of food to spare in the Red Waste.

There is no indication or reason to believe that those squatters arrived at Winterfell while the dragon was still there.

And by the way - the dragon could also have left Winterfell before it had the ability to fly. All it needed was the ability to breathe fire, and that comes very quickly after the hatching. With fire the young dragon could also have killed small animals on the ground. Dragons are top predators, and the wildlife in the North isn't exactly prepared to evade a dragon, be it airborne or not.

That meat would have rotted away quickly before it even had a chance to fly. Larger hatchlings don't get to learn to fly earlier. Drogon grows bigger than his siblings, but he matures at pretty much the same rate. We have no examples of accelerated maturation for dragons.The hatchling would need enough charred meat to supply it for seven months, which is not likely the case. The dragons didn't eat nothing during that time in the Red Waste, Dany breastfed them.  

You mean if the dragon was there. Seven months after the burning of Winterfell would have been more than enough time for squatters to arrive. 

I already pointed out that it would take at least seven months to learn flight or breathe fire. It's food supply would have disappeared quickly after a month, and I don't think it could go six months without food. 

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2 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

I think they were dead. It took a fire and blood to hatch them. 

Then why were they warm to Dany's touch? They appeared to be dead but they were not.

2 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

There is precedent for it with Addam of Hull being accepted into House Velaryon after mounting Seasmoke.

Addam of Hull was Corlys Velaryon's bastard. The people legitimizing him did know this. The dragon had little and less to do with this, or else Alyn of Hull wouldn't have been legitimized, either. He never mounted a dragon, if you recall.

2 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

The Starks never intermarried with the Targaryens or any family south of the Neck minus the Blackwoods, and thus wouldn't have married into families that intermarried with House Targaryen. Howland Reed and the Daynes would also provide their word that Rhaegar is Jon's father. 

They could say that, yes, and if Jon is going to be seen as a Targaryen it is likely going to be because really powerful people - like Dany's gang, Aegon's people, whoever else has the most power at the time the Jon parentage thing comes into play - buy into it. Else it would play no role at all.

However, the marriage policies of the Starks are irrelevant in all this. Officially, Jon Snow is Eddard Stark's bastard son by an unknown woman. This mother could be anyone, including a Targaryen/dragonlord descendant. Just as Aegon the Unworthy could be the true father of one of Eddard Stark's Stark ancestors. A family tree doesn't always cover the correct biological ancestors.

Ned's female line ancestors could have dragonlord blood, too. That hasn't been disproved at this point.

If nobody wanted to believe Howland Reed's fairy-tale story they don't have to. Dragon or not. Nobody believed Hugh and Ulf were Jaehaerys I and Alysanne's lost sons, never mind that they claimed their dragons.

2 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

How many people  actually know Jon is a skinchanger? The answer is no one south of the Gift. 

They will learn that, assuming Jon Snow is going to play a political role south of the Gift before Daenerys and the dragons show up. 

2 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

I think he would mount a dragon posed as a challenge by Dany. If he refuses, he pretty much sends the statement that he isn't a Targaryen, and if he tries he could lose his life, removing him as a pretender. That would appear to be the most convenient way to be rid of him for Dany. 

There is pretty much no reason to believe she would do something as stupid as that. For one, I don't think is ever going to be a rival pretender to Daenerys, but even if he was he is never going to have the strength or power to actually challenge her in any political meaningful sense. Especially not while he doesn't have a dragon yet.

In addition, Daenerys will hand her dragons over to other men - or rather: they will claim her riderless dragons in Meereen soon. That is going to make those men powerful players in their own right. And the likes of Tyrion, Brown Ben Plumm, or Victarion are not exactly the kind of people you want to trust/work with.

If she makes bad experiences with either/all of them, she won't risk claiming another such man one of her dragons if she can prevent it. Making the chances about zero that she will offer Jon such a thing.

First she will have to deal with Aegon, anyway. I could see her making such a challenge to Aegon, assuming she comes to the conclusion that he is not her nephew. But then, as a Blackfyre descendant he could likely still claim a dragon.

2 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

That meat would have rotted away quickly before it even had a chance to fly.

Meat doesn't rot away this quickly.

2 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

Larger hatchlings don't get to learn to fly earlier.

How do you know that? Give me a quote.

2 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

Drogon grows bigger than his siblings, but he matures at pretty much the same rate.

Drogon is larger than his siblings and may already have reached dragon maturity for all we know.

2 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

We have no examples of accelerated maturation for dragons.The hatchling would need enough charred meat to supply it for seven months, which is not likely the case.

How do you know dragons cannot gorge themselves on a large quantity of meat and then draw from that for months and years, like many reptiles do? Stop making proclamations as if you were some dragon expert. You are not. Those are fantasy creatures and you have no idea how their fantasy biology works or what they can and cannot do.

You can say you don't find it likely that they can do this or that, but you can't say you know what they can do or cannot do.

2 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

The dragons didn't eat nothing during that time in the Red Waste, Dany breastfed them.  

Dany's mild dried up while they were in the Red Waste because she herself suffered from starvation and heat.

Not to mention that milk may not have been the best food for dragons, either, never mind that they were taking it. 

2 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

You mean if the dragon was there. Seven months after the burning of Winterfell would have been more than enough time for squatters to arrive.

Again, nobody said that the dragon would have to be seven months at Winterfell. It could have left 1-2 months after it hatched. It didn't need to fly to leave the castle.

2 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

I already pointed out that it would take at least seven months to learn flight or breathe fire.

You didn't point out the latter, and if you tried to do it you would be wrong. Drogon already breathed smoke when he hatched in AGoT. Fire shouldn't have come all that late thereafter.

And aside from all that: We do know that dragons can survive alone in the wild. Do you assume the Targaryens put the Cannibal, Sheepstealer, and Grey Ghost out there to roam Dragonstone? No. They were hatchlings who fled the hatcheries and set themselves up as independent dragons.

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1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

They were only warm to Daenerys's touch. To all others they were cold stone. 

I know, but if they had been dead, they would have been cold to Dany's touch, too, no?

Those were dormant dragon eggs. A little bit of life must or been left, or else this wouldn't have worked.

There is a reason why George worked with dragon eggs and not, say, dragon sculptures or statues. And we all agree that Mel waking the dragon statues of Dragonstone from stone would have meant the creation of different dragons than the kind of 'natural dragons' Dany brought forth from her eggs.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I know, but if they had been dead, they would have been cold to Dany's touch, too, no?

Those were dormant dragon eggs. A little bit of life must or been left, or else this wouldn't have worked.

There is a reason why George worked with dragon eggs and not, say, dragon sculptures or statues. And we all agree that Mel waking the dragon statues of Dragonstone from stone would have meant the creation of different dragons than the kind of 'natural dragons' Dany brought forth from her eggs.

No. It was part of Daenerys's special voodoo, dude. 

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16 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

No. It was part of Daenerys's special voodoo, dude. 

Could be. But I don't buy that her 'special voodoo' allowed her to feel life where there was none. Her 'special voodoo' is the blood of the dragon, not some magical super mojo. And the magic of the blood of the dragon is an affinity towards, you know, dragon-related things.

Any Targaryen may have felt what she did (although not every Targaryen may have succeeded in hatching the eggs). Viserys just never tried, failing to realize that the means to take his father's throne weren't gold and horselords and sellswords, but dragons.

What do you think Aerion, Egg, Maester Aemon, and Aerys II felt when they looked at and caressed the dragon eggs they possessed? Somehow I doubt they were dead stones to those people. Else many of them would have never developed notions/delusions that those stones might bring forth living dragons. What caused Baelor to pray over dragons? Or Aegon the Unworthy to demand 'wooden dragons'? Why do they put dead stones in the cradles of Maekar's children?

After all, such hopes clearly qualify as insane by the standards of the society they lived in, yet somehow the failures and tragedies didn't put an end to the attempts.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Could be. 

Yeap. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

But I don't buy that her 'special voodoo' allowed her to feel life where there was none. Her 'special voodoo' is the blood of the dragon, not some magical super mojo. And the magic of the blood of the dragon is an affinity towards, you know, dragon-related things.

Says you. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Any Targaryen may have felt what she did (although not every Targaryen may have succeeded in hatching the eggs). 

We don't  know that. We could assume that Daenerys, as The MOTHER OF DRAGONS, is a special case even among Targaryens. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

What do you think Aerion, Egg, Maester Aemon, and Aerys II felt when they looked at and caressed the dragon eggs they possessed?

I don't know, but I expect you're fixin' to tell me what they felt...

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Somehow I doubt they were dead stones to those people.

Ah, you were fixin' to tell me what they did not feel, and here's your reasoning...

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Somehow I doubt they were dead stones to those people. Else many of them would have never developed notions/delusions that those stones might bring forth living dragons. What caused Baelor to pray over dragons? Or Aegon the Unworthy to demand 'wooden dragons'? Why do they put dead stones in the cradles of Maekar's children?

Not necessarily... Weren't at least some of those eggs were considered to be very old, no? Look, I know you believe that Daenerys's eggs were from a relatively recent clutch, and perhaps they were, but there's just as much evidence, if not more, to suggest that the eggs were very old and acquired by the enormously wealthy Illyrio in the course of his business as a trader in dragonbone with commercial relationships as far off as the Jade Sea. 

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I don't think we are getting new dragons, adult-ish or hatchlings, in the story now. I could be wrong about one being in the north, given that there were dragons all over, once. IF there is one in the north, then it is in "hibernation" mode only to be awoken by some other magical event >>> but I doubt this being the case as much as I would love it. Sidenote: I always wondered if these same-yet-different dragons are the reason for the dragonsteel .vs. Valyrian Steel we read about in the discussion between Sam and Jon.

Just to speculate, we may get some epilogue of a distant future where some new pale child Bakkalon wanders in the desert and stumbles upon a clutch of eggs dug from skeleton of a curiously fallen down pyramid-shaped tower of ancient days past. These eggs would be cold and stone-like.

I can imagine in the future time in an epilogue, this little pale child will find these eggs, which are now dead and non-viable, but this little pale child will learn the ways of necromancy (whether instinctual or not?) and she will sacrifice her own living family to give life to these cold stones that now radiate heat with each step taken. And then comes final union.

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.
And the next day, strangely, she did not seem to hurt quite so much. It was as if the gods had heard her and taken pity. Even her handmaids noticed the change. "Khaleesi," Jhiqui said, "what is wrong? Are you sick?"
"I was," she answered, standing over the dragon's eggs that Illyrio had given her when she wed. She touched one, the largest of the three, running her hand lightly over the shell. Black-and-scarlet, she thought, like the dragon in my dream. The stone felt strangely warm beneath her fingers … or was she still dreaming? She pulled her hand back nervously.
From that hour onward, each day was easier than the one before it. Her legs grew stronger; her blisters burst and her hands grew callused; her soft thighs toughened, supple as leather.

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"… don't want to wake the dragon …"
She could feel the heat inside her, a terrible burning in her womb. Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo's copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds. And he smiled for her and began to lift his hand toward hers, but when he opened his mouth the fire poured out. She saw his heart burning through his chest, and in an instant he was gone, consumed like a moth by a candle, turned to ash. She wept for her child, the promise of a sweet mouth on her breast, but her tears turned to steam as they touched her skin.
"… want to wake the dragon …"

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

She should weep, she knew, yet her eyes were dry as ash. She had wept in her dream, and the tears had turned to steam on her cheeks. All the grief has been burned out of me, she told herself. She felt sad, and yet … she could feel Rhaego receding from her, as if he had never been.
Ser Jorah and Mirri Maz Duur entered a few moments later, and found Dany standing over the other dragon's eggs, the two still in their chest. It seemed to her that they felt as hot as the one she had slept with, which was passing strange. "Ser Jorah, come here," she said. She took his hand and placed it on the black egg with the scarlet swirls. "What do you feel?"
"Shell, hard as rock." The knight was wary. "Scales."
"Heat?"
"No. Cold stone." He took his hand away. "Princess, are you well? Should you be up, weak as you are?"

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys X

[Bride of Fire]
She had sensed the truth of it long ago, Dany thought as she took a step closer to the conflagration, but the brazier had not been hot enough. The flames writhed before her like the women who had danced at her wedding, whirling and singing and spinning their yellow and orange and crimson veils, fearsome to behold, yet lovely, so lovely, alive with heat. Dany opened her arms to them, her skin flushed and glowing. This is a wedding, too, she thought. Mirri Maz Duur had fallen silent. The godswife thought her a child, but children grow, and children learn.
 
[and then a few paragraphs later, Dany confirms she is the bride of fire herself, that this was a wedding]
"You are khaleesi," Rakharo said, taking the arakh. "I shall ride at your side to Vaes Dothrak beneath the Mother of Mountains, and keep you safe from harm until you take your place with the crones of the dosh khaleen. No more can I promise."
She nodded, as calmly as if she had not heard his answer, and turned to the last of her champions. "Ser Jorah Mormont," she said, "first and greatest of my knights, I have no bride gift to give you, but I swear to you, one day you shall have from my hands a longsword like none the world has ever seen, dragon-forged and made of Valyrian steel. And I would ask for your oath as well."
"You have it, my queen," Ser Jorah said, kneeling to lay his sword at her feet. "I vow to serve you, to obey you, to die for you if need be."
 
{and next we have the union of bride and "groom" to make it legit]

The Princess and the Queen

...Meanwhile, Seasmoke rolled and banked and looped. One instant he would be below his foe, and suddenly he would twist in the sky and come around behind her. Higher and higher the two dragons flew, as hundreds watched from the roofs of Tumbleton. One such said afterward that the flight of Tessarion and Seasmoke seemed more mating dance than battle. Perhaps it was.

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys IX

Dizzy, Dany closed her eyes. When she opened them again, she glimpsed the Meereenese beneath her through a haze of tears and dust, pouring up the steps and out into the streets.
The lash was still in her hand. She flicked it against Drogon's neck and cried, "Higher!" Her other hand clutched at his scales, her fingers scrabbling for purchase. Drogon's wide black wings beat the air. Dany could feel the heat of him between her thighs. Her heart felt as if it were about to burst. Yes, she thought, yes, now, now, do it, do it, take me, take me, FLY!
 
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3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Says you. 

Sure, who else? If it was you, it would be a wall of unconnected quotes stitched together by a few sentences.

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

We don't  know that. We could assume that Daenerys, as The MOTHER OF DRAGONS, is a special case even among Targaryens.

We can do a lot of things, but do we have a reasons to assume that (apparently) mad dreams and notions are characteristic or uncharacteristic for the bloodline? I say the former. And there is no hint that Dany in a real sense 'special' aside from the fact that she intuitively figured out how the spell worked (and accidentally suffered enough losses to be able to see it through).

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Not necessarily... Weren't at least some of those eggs were considered to be very old, no? Look, I know you believe that Daenerys's eggs were from a relatively recent clutch, and perhaps they were, but there's just as much evidence, if not more, to suggest that the eggs were very old and acquired by the enormously wealthy Illyrio in the course of his business as a trader in dragonbone with commercial relationships as far off as the Jade Sea. 

Nay, you are mistaken there. I believe Dany's eggs are part of the clutch Aerys II found on Dragonstone according to Yandel. Those eggs supposedly very old, too. One could even get the impression they were doing archaeological diggings before they found those eggs. They were not lying around in the citadel of Dragonstone, they were dug up, possibly around the Dragonmount were the old hatcheries had been, or even in the old lairs of the riderless and wild dragons.

I couldn't care less about how old they are, in fact. My point there is the connection between Dany's eggs and the Targaryens - via Varys and Illyrio - not their age.

Their age is irrelevant in any case, considering that we don't know how long unhatched dragons can lay dormant in those eggs. It could be tens of thousands of years for all we know and all I care. There is not going to be an answer to this.

But there is the fact that there is a apparently no visible difference between a reasonably fresh dragon egg (like Egg's, which is from the last clutch the last dragon left in 152 AC) and an egg that is supposedly very ancient (like Dany's eggs or the eggs Aerys II found on Dragonstone).

What does this tell us? That there is a noteworthy difference between a reasonably fresh and a very old dragon egg? No. Why should we then assume that old dragons are less likely to hatch during a spell than fresher eggs?

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3 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Any chance Harry Strickland's desire for the elephants to arrive is because Varys and Illyrio are planning on feeding some dragons of their own?

I reckon Varys and Illyrio are bound to have more dragon eggs, considering their spy/thievery network, wealth and connections to Aegon/the Blackfyres. 

Yeah but how to hatch them... What are you thinking, like Mayzie and Horton? 

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7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, who else? If it was you, it would be a wall of unconnected quotes stitched together by a few sentences.

:lol:

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We can do a lot of things, but do we have a reasons to assume that (apparently) mad dreams and notions are characteristic or uncharacteristic for the bloodline? I say the former. And there is no hint that Dany in a real sense 'special' aside from the fact that she intuitively figured out how the spell worked (and accidentally suffered enough losses to be able to see it through).

Nay, you are mistaken there. I believe Dany's eggs are part of the clutch Aerys II found on Dragonstone according to Yandel. Those eggs supposedly very old, too. One could even get the impression they were doing archaeological diggings before they found those eggs. They were not lying around in the citadel of Dragonstone, they were dug up, possibly around the Dragonmount were the old hatcheries had been, or even in the old lairs of the riderless and wild dragons.

I couldn't care less about how old they are, in fact. My point there is the connection between Dany's eggs and the Targaryens - via Varys and Illyrio - not their age.

Their age is irrelevant in any case, considering that we don't know how long unhatched dragons can lay dormant in those eggs. It could be tens of thousands of years for all we know and all I care. There is not going to be an answer to this.

But there is the fact that there is a apparently no visible difference between a reasonably fresh dragon egg (like Egg's, which is from the last clutch the last dragon left in 152 AC) and an egg that is supposedly very ancient (like Dany's eggs or the eggs Aerys II found on Dragonstone).

What does this tell us? That there is a noteworthy difference between a reasonably fresh and a very old dragon egg? No. Why should we then assume that old dragons are less likely to hatch during a spell than fresher eggs?

I realize we do not know the backstory behind every egg that hatched, and that we can only guess at most, but we do know of a few right... Prince John Doe Targaryen's dragon hatched from an egg that came from a clutch laid by a particular dragon... There are a few of those examples, right? Well, in all those cases (excluding Daenerys's eggs), where we know the backstory behind the egg a particular dragon hatched from, weren't all of those eggs laid relatively recently (before the hatching)? And we haven't been told explicity that any of the old dragons (not Daenerys's dragonlets) were hatched from ancient or even relatively old eggs are we? (I am asking, not arguing.) 

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22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Addam of Hull was Corlys Velaryon's bastard. The people legitimizing him did know this. The dragon had little and less to do with this, or else Alyn of Hull wouldn't have been legitimized, either. He never mounted a dragon, if you recall.

But that knowledge wasn't public, and even in WOIAF it is stated that Addam's true origins are a matter of dispute. Given that, it was seen in public that Addam proved his heritage by mounting Seasmoke. Alyn came with the package given he was Addam's full brother. 

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This mother could be anyone, including a Targaryen/dragonlord descendant. Just as Aegon the Unworthy could be the true father of one of Eddard Stark's Stark ancestors. A family tree doesn't always cover the correct biological ancestors.

Ned's female line ancestors could have dragonlord blood, too. That hasn't been disproved at this point.

If nobody wanted to believe Howland Reed's fairy-tale story they don't have to. Dragon or not. Nobody believed Hugh and Ulf were Jaehaerys I and Alysanne's lost sons, never mind that they claimed their dragons.

They have nothing to go on regarding who Jon's mother would be, especially given the math. Wyllas came from Starfall as a wet nurse for Jon, meaning Jon clearly came from Dorne. Jon was born more than a year after Ned met Ashara, so that rules her out. Ned only stayed in Dorne for a few months, not long enough for it to be by Wylla. 

Name to me one of Ned's ancestors from the south through the female line. The Starks tend to marry north of the Neck. There is no known dragonblood in any of the Northern houses they married into. 

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is pretty much no reason to believe she would do something as stupid as that. For one, I don't think is ever going to be a rival pretender to Daenerys, but even if he was he is never going to have the strength or power to actually challenge her in any political meaningful sense. Especially not while he doesn't have a dragon yet.

In addition, Daenerys will hand her dragons over to other men - or rather: they will claim her riderless dragons in Meereen soon. That is going to make those men powerful players in their own right. And the likes of Tyrion, Brown Ben Plumm, or Victarion are not exactly the kind of people you want to trust/work with.

If she makes bad experiences with either/all of them, she won't risk claiming another such man one of her dragons if she can prevent it. Making the chances about zero that she will offer Jon such a thing.

Except I think she would believe Jon has no dragonblood, and there is a good chance he would fail. Look at all the potential dragonriders during the Dance of Dragons. Daenerys would be inclined to disbelieve since his story takes the one she lived her life by, and turns it on its head. 

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Meat doesn't rot away this quickly.

Yeah, it does. It starts to liquefy after a month. 

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

How do you know that? Give me a quote.

Drogon pretty much matures at the same rate as his siblings. I don't see any records of dragons that are bigger mature faster than smaller dragons. Not all dragons are born or grow into the same size like with all creatures. Size =/= more mature. 

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Drogon is larger than his siblings and may already have reached dragon maturity for all we know.

From what we know with how big dragons get, as well as how old, he clearly hasn't reached maturity. At a few years-old he is still a juvenile. 

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

How do you know dragons cannot gorge themselves on a large quantity of meat and then draw from that for months and years, like many reptiles do? Stop making proclamations as if you were some dragon expert. You are not. Those are fantasy creatures and you have no idea how their fantasy biology works or what they can and cannot do.

You can say you don't find it likely that they can do this or that, but you can't say you know what they can do or cannot do.

From what we've seen with Dany's dragons, they have high metabolism as is the case with animals that are capable of flight. She mentions in ADwD they need to eat daily. That is also to mention that a dragon can only eat so much at one time, especially a hatchling that doesn't know its food is going to disappear soon. I doubt a hatchling with a high metabolism could survive six months without food.

Also, dude, chill out. Keep it professional not personal, otherwise you should excuse yourself from this conversation if you find yourself unable. Few arguments have ever been won through personal attacks/remarks.

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Again, nobody said that the dragon would have to be seven months at Winterfell. It could have left 1-2 months after it hatched. It didn't need to fly to leave the castle.

But as Viserys noted and we already discussed, dragons only eat cooked meat. It would be 5-6 months before the hatchling would be able to breathe fire, and eat cooked meat. How would it get cooked meat?

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You didn't point out the latter, and if you tried to do it you would be wrong. Drogon already breathed smoke when he hatched in AGoT. Fire shouldn't have come all that late thereafter.

And aside from all that: We do know that dragons can survive alone in the wild. Do you assume the Targaryens put the Cannibal, Sheepstealer, and Grey Ghost out there to roam Dragonstone? No. They were hatchlings who fled the hatcheries and set themselves up as independent dragons.

I did point out that Drogon didn't fly or breathe fire until seven months after hatching at the HotU. If they could breathe fire since they hatched, then why didn't the dragons need Dany to char their meat for them when they could have just seared the meat themselves with their dragonflame? 

We have no record of how old they were when they set out on their own, but I think it would have been when they were old enough to fend for themselves. 

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10 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I realize we do not know the backstory behind every egg that hatched, and that we can only guess at most, but we do know of a few right... Prince John Doe Targaryen's dragon hatched from an egg that came from a clutch laid by a particular dragon... There are a few of those examples, right?

There are. Morning likely came from one of the three eggs Rhaenyra gave to Rhaena before she left for the Vale, and they had been laid by Syrax. The same goes for the eggs Rhaenyra's sons received, if I remember correctly.

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Well, in all those cases (excluding Daenerys's eggs), where we know the backstory behind the egg a particular dragon hatched from, weren't all of those eggs laid relatively recently (before the hatching)? And we haven't been told explicity that any of the old dragons (not Daenerys's dragonlets) were hatched from ancient or even relatively old eggs are we? (I am asking, not arguing.) 

Oh, I'm with you there. I'm not saying old eggs like Dany's would simply hatch spontaneously like the eggs apparently did back in the days when (healthy) dragons were still around.

I'm just saying the return of dragons could also have restore/awake whatever magic lingers in old dragon eggs, making it easier for them to hatch under the right circumstances.

A dragon egg at Winterfell would come from Vermax, and would thus be only about twenty years older than the last dragon eggs produced by the last dragon. Such an egg could hatch much easier than Dany's own eggs if we assume they are hundreds of years old.

I mean, if I'm right and Dany's eggs are (some of) Aerys II's eggs then those eggs could have been produced back in Aenar's days when his five dragons first came to Dragonstone, or perhaps older still, being produced by whatever dragons the first dragonlords brought with them to Valyria.

In addition, this whole thing gives us the possibility that Aegon also has some dragon eggs in one of those chests Illyrio gave him. And it would be a really powerful sign of the blessing of the Seven, etc. if a dragon egg of Aegon's miraculously hatched during his coronation feast in the Red Keep, don't you think? Sort of like it was a seen as a positive sign when two dragons hatched on Dragonstone after King Aenys had named Maegor Hand...

He would not be able to use that dragon as a weapon quickly, of course, but it would put fear in the hearts of his Westerosi enemies and give everybody the impression he really is the rightful king who will restore peace in the land, etc.

And I really think additional dragons could play a role on that level. And, of course, ancient dragons returning, etc. could also play a role in the actual war game (e.g. the Cannibal).

2 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

But that knowledge wasn't public, and even in WOIAF it is stated that Addam's true origins are a matter of dispute. Given that, it was seen in public that Addam proved his heritage by mounting Seasmoke. Alyn came with the package given he was Addam's full brother.

There is no proof that Alyn of Hull was the full brother of Addam of Hull. The fact that they had the same mother, Marilda of Hull, doesn't mean Corlys or Laenor Velaryon was the father of both of the boys.

The dragon didn't got them legitimized, Corlys and Jacaerys did. They asked Rhaenyra to do it. If Rhaenyra had wanted she could also have declared Nettles Daemon's bastard daughter and Ulf and Hugh her long-lost half-brothers, or something of that sort. She did not.

It is not that monarchs are beholden to the truth when they decree something. If they want, they could adopt some random peasant and make them their legitimized bastard.

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They have nothing to go on regarding who Jon's mother would be, especially given the math. Wyllas came from Starfall as a wet nurse for Jon, meaning Jon clearly came from Dorne. Jon was born more than a year after Ned met Ashara, so that rules her out. Ned only stayed in Dorne for a few months, not long enough for it to be by Wylla. 

That is completely irrelevant to anyone who doesn't want to wonder who the hell Jon Snow's mother is. They don't have to prove or disprove something, they could just ignore all of that.

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Name to me one of Ned's ancestors from the south through the female line. The Starks tend to marry north of the Neck. There is no known dragonblood in any of the Northern houses they married into.

There is Melantha Blackwood, of course. But I never said (we knew) there was dragonblood in one of the families the Starks intermarried with during the ages. I said it is possible that some dragonblood ended up one such bloodline (even the Starks own) by a king impregnating somebody else's wife or by one of the houses the Starks married into being descended from a bastard of Aegon IV or some other illegitimate Targaryen cadet branch.

And besides, if Dany insisted to believe the word of the honorable Ned Stark - as she would be free to do so - she could just as well assume that Jon Snow's mystery mother was some Targaryen descendant.

If you don't want to believe Jon Snow's fairy-tale story one could claim that's how he can claim a dragon. And then he would be in Ulf/Hugh's league, not in the league of the royals.

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Except I think she would believe Jon has no dragonblood, and there is a good chance he would fail. Look at all the potential dragonriders during the Dance of Dragons. Daenerys would be inclined to disbelieve since his story takes the one she lived her life by, and turns it on its head. 

Dany will learn that scum and people who should lack the ability to claim a dragon have claimed one or two of her dragons. Why on earth do you think Dragonbinder was introduced into the story? If Brown Ben and Victarion may be able to become dragonriders, anybody can. Claiming a dragon will prove nothing, and there won't be any reason to make claiming a dragon a test to prove somebody's ancestry - or rather: the political claim that might be connected with that ancestry.

Besides this is a completely artificial scenario where you are imagining there is tension or conflict between Dany and Jon at that point in their story. I reject that whole scenario out of hand. Those two are not set up to become rivals or enemies. If that was the case, then Jon Snow would be Aegon, not Jon Snow. He would have been raised as a hidden prince, and been prepared to take the throne that is his by right one day.

We will get a conflict between Dany and Aegon - another conflict between Dany and Jon would be nothing but an echo or a ripoff of that scenario. It would and cheapen both their stories.

Should Dany ever meet and treat with Aegon I could see her offering him one of her dragons to test him - assuming had a riderless dragon with her at that time. After all, by that time she might have strong evidence that Aegon is not, in fact, Rhaegar's son.

With Jon it might be completely differently. Dany knows that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love. She might also know that Lyanna was pregnant by Rhaegar when she died. It might not be difficult for her to believe the Jon Snow story once she finally hears it. Far to the contrary, actually. And with Wylla and the Daynes still out there she might end up getting information on the existence of this son of Rhaegar and Lyanna long before she actually encounters Jon Snow.

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Yeah, it does. It starts to liquefy after a month. 

More than enough time for the dragon to eat more than enough of it.

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Drogon pretty much matures at the same rate as his siblings. I don't see any records of dragons that are bigger mature faster than smaller dragons. Not all dragons are born or grow into the same size like with all creatures. Size =/= more mature. 

Maturity means you are able to procreate. It has nothing to do with size. Dany's dragons might very well already be able to procreate at this point. Or not. We don't know it yet.

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From what we know with how big dragons get, as well as how old, he clearly hasn't reached maturity. At a few years-old he is still a juvenile. 

See above. We don't know. Dragons seem to be growing their entire life.

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Also, dude, chill out. Keep it professional not personal, otherwise you should excuse yourself from this conversation if you find yourself unable. Few arguments have ever been won through personal attacks/remarks.

Those weren't personal remarks. I told you not to invent stuff or present things you invented as facts. You are doing that.

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But as Viserys noted and we already discussed, dragons only eat cooked meat. It would be 5-6 months before the hatchling would be able to breathe fire, and eat cooked meat. How would it get cooked meat?

There is no evidence that Drogon was first able to breathe fire at the House of the Undying. You claiming that doesn't make it so. He already breathed smoke immediately after he hatched. Who are you to say that he couldn't have breathed fire after gorging himself on two charred human corpses immediately after his birth?

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I did point out that Drogon didn't fly or breathe fire until seven months after hatching at the HotU. If they could breathe fire since they hatched, then why didn't the dragons need Dany to char their meat for them when they could have just seared the meat themselves with their dragonflame? 

Perhaps because they grew accustomed to being fed by their mother and her servants? Dany's dragons are domesticated dragons. They grew up around humans and didn't view them as prey but as their caretakers. The hypothetical dragon we are talking about her would have been grown up alone in the wild.

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We have no record of how old they were when they set out on their own, but I think it would have been when they were old enough to fend for themselves. 

Why would you think that? Because you think George would have give you information about stuff like that? Why should he? Why do you think it is important when those hatchlings left the hatcheries?

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On February 24, 2018 at 11:51 AM, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Let's hope not.  Call me old fashioned, but the idea of a small, priveledged class ruling because they have the means to unleash cataclysmic violence all the while proclaiming themselves benevolent and divinely selected to rule is rather upsetting.  I'm rooting for the dragons to fuck off to the west of westeros or east of the shadowlands and never return to the realm of men again.

Westeroes was a feudal society to begin with. So it was always a society ruled by a privellaged class because they have the means unleash cataclysmic destruction all the while claiming they have divine right. Dragons didn't change. Hell, in some instances the Targaryens were able to skirt age old violations of basic rights such as, you don't have to worry about your lord coming to rape your wife on your wedding night. And quite frankly I have to say the Targyens use of dragons in war has enabled them to fight wars much more cleanly; far less rape and murder of civilians by soldiers ramped up on the adrenaline of battle.

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13 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Yeah but how to hatch them... What are you thinking, like Mayzie and Horton? 

Dude, your references are tight. ;)

As Horton is an elephant, what do you think of my Strickland/Dragon/Elephant scenario?

Not sure how they could hatch other eggs. I think Aegon or another dragon blooded character might be a good Horton for the eggs. We have yet to see eggs in a volcanic location in the main series so I wonder what might happen if YG wants to head to Dragonstone after Storm's End, with a few eggs popping up. (I am of the opinion that Aurane has captured DS for Varys). Any ideas?

For me, it sounds out of character for the Spider and Cheesemonger to gift Dany with stone eggs - resulting in them hatching - and not have any eggs kept by for their "perfect prince". Fair enough, they might not have known the eggs would hatch, but they have known about Drogon and co for a while now. Perhaps they have yet to give YG any eggs because they want to be sure he isn't another Aerys - they might even make a big public scene out of Aegon hatching them.

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17 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Any chance Harry Strickland's desire for the elephants to arrive is because Varys and Illyrio are planning on feeding some dragons of their own?

Nay, Homeless Harry just likes his elephants. Everybody likes elephants.

17 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I reckon Varys and Illyrio are bound to have more dragon eggs, considering their spy/thievery network, wealth and connections to Aegon/the Blackfyres. 

Certainly. Regardless whether Illyrio bought those dragon eggs in Asshai or whether Varys stole those eggs Aerys II found on Dragonstone and handed them to Illyrio, Illyrio is not likely to throw all those eggs at Daenerys to disappear in the Dothraki Sea.

Regardless whether the eggs hatch or not, Aegon could greatly profit from the symbolic power dragons eggs can give him. They would make him look legitimate. They would help him look Targaryen. And he can need that.

If George hadn't put at least three dragon eggs in some of those chests George would deliberately create a huge plot hole here. Regardless whether they later hatch or not. I mean, it would be an interesting plot point if Aegon had his own young dragon later on (see my idea that one of the egg's hatches during his coronation feast) but it could also make for an interesting story if he started to try to hatch the eggs he has, in an attempt to acquire the power and prestige he is most definitely going to need to deal with both Euron and Daenerys.

And, I mean, what do we expect to be in those chests? Blackfyre (and/or Dark Sister) would fit in one chest. What's in the other chests? There could be other Targaryen memorabilia - Queen Rhaella's crown (bought back from the person Viserys sold it to), the Conqueror's crown (or a replica thereof) bought from the Dornishmen, Jaehaerys I's crown (tracked down by Varys), Aerys II's crown (stolen by Varys along with the dragon eggs), etc. but in the end dragon eggs are the most likely valuables to be found in there.

They would be not just props but potentially relevant to the plot.

Blackfyre would be relevant, too, but in the end it is just a sword. Dragons are dragons.

28 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Not sure how they could hatch other eggs. I think Aegon or another dragon blooded character might be a good Horton for the eggs. We have yet to see eggs in a volcanic location in the main series so I wonder what might happen if YG wants to head to Dragonstone after Storm's End, with a few eggs popping up. (I am of the opinion that Aurane has captured DS for Varys). Any ideas?

Dragonstone shouldn't be on the top of Aegon's list, but should he take KL taking possession of Dragonstone - the ancestral home of his family, seat of his princely father, and his own birth place - should come next.

One would assume that Loras (if he is still there) would hand over the island without a fight. Once Aegon sits the Iron Throne the Tyrells will be either in his camp or in such a weak position that they won't dare resist the new king in this.

And there is something with Dragonstone as a setting. It has been built up as this gloomy place of doom from the Prologue of ACoK onwards. There is something on that island, something that's going to become important. POVs will go there again. Chances are that we'll get either Connington or Arianne POVs on the island in the foreseeable future.

But the chances are not so good that they will find dragon eggs. The Epilogue indicates that Loras' people actually searched the island for dragon eggs already, and they didn't find any. Just as Stannis and Melisandre did not.

That is where the Cannibal could come into play, though. If he was trapped in a cavern beneath the Dragonmount, dormant/in hibernation, yet able to be restored to life, then Aegon could become a really powerful and dangerous player if he resurrected the creature and mounted it.

The Cannibal is a dragon who devours other dragons. He is the big bad who could really prey on (and kill) Dany's dragons. We would all fear for Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal if they had to face a creature like the Cannibal in battle. That is a means to create tension that would greatly exceed anything else George could cook up.

If Dany ended up controlling all her dragons then it is pretty clear that Aegon will lose spectacularly once they finally clash. Dragons are dragons, and propaganda won't carry the day when three dragons are circling the Red Keep... But if he had a dragon of his own - a really dangerous one - then nothing is certain again. Pretty much anything could happen. And we could get a major dragon battle in the story, one where three smaller dragons and their riders face a huge dragon the size of Vhagar or Balerion in battle. It could also be the moment where one of Dany's other dragonriders die, making way for Jon Snow to claim that dragon later on.

[Although I must say I also would bet no money on a dragon facing Euron Greyjoy in direct combat. Should he acquire a Valyrian steel sword in addition to his Valyrian steel armor he should not only be able to withstand dragonfire but also have the means to hack Dany's dragons to pieces. If there is a dragonslayer in the making, it is Euron Greyjoy.]

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26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Nay, Homeless Harry just likes his elephants. Everybody likes elephants.

Apart from the Tigers :rolleyes:

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Certainly. Regardless whether Illyrio bought those dragon eggs in Asshai or whether Varys stole those eggs Aerys II found on Dragonstone and handed them to Illyrio, Illyrio is not likely to throw all those eggs at Daenerys to disappear in the Dothraki Sea.

Regardless whether the eggs hatch or not, Aegon could greatly profit from the symbolic power dragons eggs can give him. They would make him look legitimate. They would help him look Targaryen. And he can need that.

If George hadn't put at least three dragon eggs in some of those chests George would deliberately create a huge plot hole here. Regardless whether they later hatch or not. I mean, it would be an interesting plot point if Aegon had his own young dragon later on (see my idea that one of the egg's hatches during his coronation feast) but it could also make for an interesting story if he started to try to hatch the eggs he has, in an attempt to acquire the power and prestige he is most definitely going to need to deal with both Euron and Daenerys.

And, I mean, what do we expect to be in those chests? Blackfyre (and/or Dark Sister) would fit in one chest. What's in the other chests? There could be other Targaryen memorabilia - Queen Rhaella's crown (bought back from the person Viserys sold it to), the Conqueror's crown (or a replica thereof) bought from the Dornishmen, Jaehaerys I's crown (tracked down by Varys), Aerys II's crown (stolen by Varys along with the dragon eggs), etc. but in the end dragon eggs are the most likely valuables to be found in there.

They would be not just props but potentially relevant to the plot.

Blackfyre would be relevant, too, but in the end it is just a sword. Dragons are dragons.

I like your ideas about eggs being in the chests and one potentially hatching during Aegon's coronation feast.

As you say, Aegon merely displaying his eggs in public would do a lot for his legitimacy - how many living people in Westeros have even seen a dragon egg? About two handfuls if your lucky. 

In regards to a crown being in one of the chests, I imagine Varys would have found his way down to whatever level of the Red Keep the crowns of dead kings were kept, as well as be looking to obtain whatever lost crowns he could. He's had over a decade to try and find all the props he could for his master performance. No doubt Aegon will be wearing a historical crown.

41 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Dragonstone shouldn't be on the top of Aegon's list, but should he take KL taking possession of Dragonstone - the ancestral home of his family, seat of his princely father, and his own birth place - should come next.

One would assume that Loras (if he is still there) would hand over the island without a fight. Once Aegon sits the Iron Throne the Tyrells will be either in his camp or in such a weak position that they won't dare resist the new king in this.

And there is something with Dragonstone as a setting. It has been built up as this gloomy place of doom from the Prologue of ACoK onwards. There is something on that island, something that's going to become important. POVs will go there again. Chances are that we'll get either Connington or Arianne POVs on the island in the foreseeable future.

But the chances are not so good that they will find dragon eggs. The Epilogue indicates that Loras' people actually searched the island for dragon eggs already, and they didn't find any. Just as Stannis and Melisandre did not.

It would be interesting if Aegon, having conquered KL, has his first parlay with Dany on Dragonstone, perhaps in Aegon's Garden.

What is your opinion on the current state of Dragonstone? Any chance Loras and Aurane are holding the place for Varys?

48 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is where the Cannibal could come into play, though. If he was trapped in a cavern beneath the Dragonmount, dormant/in hibernation, yet able to be restored to life, then Aegon could become a really powerful and dangerous player if he resurrected the creature and mounted it.

The Cannibal is a dragon who devours other dragons. He is the big bad who could really prey on (and kill) Dany's dragons. We would all fear for Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal if they had to face a creature like the Cannibal in battle. That is a means to create tension that would greatly exceed anything else George could cook up.

If Dany ended up controlling all her dragons then it is pretty clear that Aegon will lose spectacularly once they finally clash. Dragons are dragons, and propaganda won't carry the day when three dragons are circling the Red Keep... But if he had a dragon of his own - a really dangerous one - then nothing is certain again. Pretty much anything could happen. And we could get a major dragon battle in the story, one where three smaller dragons and their riders face a huge dragon the size of Vhagar or Balerion in battle. It could also be the moment where one of Dany's other dragonriders die, making way for Jon Snow to claim that dragon later on.

[Although I must say I also would bet no money on a dragon facing Euron Greyjoy in direct combat. Should he acquire a Valyrian steel sword in addition to his Valyrian steel armor he should not only be able to withstand dragonfire but also have the means to hack Dany's dragons to pieces. If there is a dragonslayer in the making, it is Euron Greyjoy.]

I would like to see such an scenario play out. Personally, I think that more dragons would add to the "magic returning" side of the tale.

Aegon having his own version of Balerion would be very interesting, considering Dany's version is so much smaller. 

How far into TWOW do you think Aegon's siege of KL will take place?

Also, do you think Aegon getting a dragon of his own would turn him mad with power?

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