ASOIAF/D&D Principal Character Classes

[Curled Finger]

I have never played Dungeons & Dragons nor Final Fantasy since the first edition on the 8 bit Nintendo.   That was back when all the characters were little and Lynk only had Gannon to deal with.  My fantasy reading is very basic, being a lover of mystery and suspense.  However, I was gifted with a lovely set of essays entitled Beyond The Wall Exploring George RR Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire.  Among the essays there is a story about GRRM being an avid if not addicted D&D player.  This threw me immediately back to a conversation with @hiemal wherein he devoted a great deal of time and attention to teaching me about elementals.   I still like the Wendigo for Air!    During the past weeks I have terrorized my friends who play World of Warcraft and D&D back in the day.  I’ve been in the wiki trying to understand character classifications in an effort to perhaps shed some light on some of the characters in ASOIAF.  We may well find more clues to the many mysteries in ASOIAF by understanding Dungeons and Dragons a bit deeper just as has been shown in our deeper explorations of Norse and Celtic Mythology, fantasy, world history, the War of the Roses and the authors GRRM nods to in this brilliant series. 

The following information is pieced together from WIKI.   

 Barbarian   The barbarian is seen as the archetypal warrior who uses brute strength and raw fury to excel in combat, instead of the honed skills of the Fighter or measured strength of the Monk. Barbarians can tap their inner fury to fly into a berserker-like rage

Bard  Bards had the combined abilities of both fighters and thieves, in addition to their newly acquired lore, druidic spells,  additional languages known, a special ability to know legendary information about magic items they may encounter, and a percentage chance to automatically charm any creature that hears the bard's magical music.

Cleric  Clerics are versatile figures, both capable in combat and skilled in the use of divine magic. Clerics are powerful healers due to the large number of healing and curative magics available to them. With divinely-granted abilities over life or death, they are also able to repel or control undead creatures.

Druid  Druids wield nature-themed magic. Unlike the cleric, druids do not have special powers against undead. Druids have a unique ability that allows them to change into various animal forms, and various other qualities that assist them in natural settings.

Fighter  A fighter is a versatile, weapons-oriented warrior who fights using skill, strategy and tactics.

Fighter is a generic and broad class; individual fighters have diverse backgrounds and different styles. Bodyguards, adventurers, former soldiers, invading bandit kings, or master swordsmen are all fighters, yet they come from all walks of life and backgrounds and often find themselves on very different alignments, goals, and sides in a conflict.

Monk  As strikers, monks are focused on mobility and single-target damage. Most monk at-will and encounter attack powers use the "full discipline" mechanic, powers with this mechanic have two modes: an offense-oriented mode which can be used by expending a standard action (the same action type used to make standard attacks) and a mobility-oriented mode which can be used by expending a move action (the same action type used for normal movement).

Paladin  The paladin is a holy knight, crusading in the name of good and order, and is a divine spellcaster. Compared to other classes the paladin class has one of the most restrictive codes of conduct in their single-mindedness and utter devotion to good. Paladin characters are expected to demonstrate and embody goodness. In some editions it was taboo for a paladin to lie or use poison, and some interpretations say they should only use stealth as a last resort.

Ranger  Rangers are hunters and skilled woodsmen, and often live reclusive lives as hermits.  Rangers also gained an animal empathy ability which allowed them to calm frightened or hostile animals.

Rogue  A rogue is a versatile character, capable of sneaky combat and nimble tricks. The rogue is stealthy and dexterous capable of finding and disarming traps and picking locks. The rogue also has the ability to "sneak attack" ("backstab") enemies who are caught off-guard or taken by surprise, inflicting extra damage.

Sorcerer  A sorcerer is weak in melee combat, but a master of arcane magic. Sorcerers' magical ability is innate rather than studied.  Sorcerers create magic the way a poet creates poems, with inborn talent honed by practice.

Warlock Warlocks receive their abilities through the influence of some unearthly being such as a Demon or Fey. They are either born with these powers or receive them through a fell pact, which turns their soul into a dark font of eldritch powers. Warlocks do not cast spells, but instead use spell-like abilities called "invocations", which represent the tapping of the power granted to the warlock.

Wizard  The eight schools of magic are:

·        Abjuration: spells of protection, blocking, and banishing. Specialists are called abjurers.

·        Conjuration: spells that bring creatures or materials. Specialists are called conjurers.

·        Divination: spells that reveal information. Specialists are called diviners.

·        Enchantment: spells that magically imbue the target or give the caster power over the target. Specialists are called enchanters.

·        Evocation: spells that manipulate energy or create something from nothing. Specialists are called evokers.

·        Illusion: spells that alter perception or create false images. Specialists are called illusionists.

·        Necromancy: spells that manipulate life or life force. Specialists are called necromancers.

·        Transmutation: spells that transform the target. Specialists are called transmuters.

As you can tell, I had trouble really discerning exactly what a Wizard is.  So I turn to you, friends and book club members, for answers.  Do these D&D characters fit any of our characters in ASOIAF?  Is there a better explanation for the Wizard class? 

[Lollygag]

I saw D&D as Dan & Dave. 

If you don't mind, may I add the Dungeons and Dragons alignments as well? I have come to see a lot of the characters' differing views as alignment conflicts. Fun topic!

http://easydamus.com/alignment.html

Lawful Good
Neutral Good
Chaotic Good
Lawful Neutral
True Neutral
Chaotic Neutral
Lawful Evil
Neutral Evil
Chaotic Evil

[Curled Finger]

Thanks for popping in @Lollygag.   The whole D&D thing is really new to me, so alignments are probably still way beyond my comprehension!  Still if you see a thing or 2 you are welcome to explain so I can get a better grasp.  

[hiemal]

I don't know that GRRM would do much with the classes from D&D- the system seems too ordered and rigidly unrealistic for anything but irony in Westeros. What I do suspect is that some of the early history of this world- stuff from the Age of Heroes- might be something that GRRM has cobbled together from some kind of table-top (probably) role-playing game campaign as a way to provide a mythic framework upon which to place the patchwork quilt of history, myth, and fiction that is the "unseen history of Planetos". There is a patchwork quality to the names and stories that I am intuitively ascribing to some kind of group endeavor, something that he wanted to include a little something from every participant.

Absolute tinfoil and not very useful in making predictions but I thought it worth mentioning.

[Asshai Backward]

I've left this on the back burner because I wasn't sure what if any relevance it might have, but I noticed a while ago that many of our protagonists have each in turn been profoundly affected by an encounter with characters who very much fit these sorts of archetypes.  The interactions were almost always of the kind that turned our protagonists' paths much more firmly towards their "destinies."

Jon--Quorin-the Ranger/Fighter.  Jon's career in the Night's Watch, and his role in the big picture, turned on Quorin's inclusion in his little fellowship.  I don't believe it was a chance thing, or something Quorin did on a whim, but that is probably another story.

Dany--Quaithe-the Enchantress?  (Not sure about all those magical sub-classes). She played a pivotal role during Dany's "wandering in the desert" face.

Tyrion--Moqorro--the Cleric.  It was the availability of Moqorro's chartered ship that turned Tyrion's fate on a dime, but perhaps even moreso, the way he tells Tyrion of his place in it all may have even greater significance, as might events yet to play out in Mereen.

Arya--Jaquen--the Assassin.  Pretty clear the role he's played in Arya's journey.

Jaimie/Cersei--Qyburn--the Necromancer.  Maybe a bit murky, but his role with Jaime's sword hand, which seems to be a major turning point, as well as how he influences Cersei...still working on that.

As you might note, all those archetypal characters have something in common--the letter Q.  Coincidence probably, but I wouldn't put it past Martin.  Having said that, I haven't unearthed any other Q characters that fit the bill, particularly in Bran's case.  Unless Coldhands is Qorgyle...

[Faera]

So, basically, if asoiaf was a tabletop or videogame RPG, what classes would our heroes be in?

Most of them would be some class of fighter. I'd actually class Jon as akin to a "Warlock/Fighter" which would probably make him a sort of "Dark Knight" character.

17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Paladin  The paladin is a holy knight, crusading in the name of good and order, and is a divine spellcaster. Compared to other classes the paladin class has one of the most restrictive codes of conduct in their single-mindedness and utter devotion to good. Paladin characters are expected to demonstrate and embody goodness. In some editions it was taboo for a paladin to lie or use poison, and some interpretations say they should only use stealth as a last resort.

Ah, yes. These guys are essentially locked into the "Lawful Good" category as far as I can recall. While Brienne Tarth is not a spellcaster per se in holy magic she's about the only character who matches this image of purity. Even then, it's tainted. Seriously, can any character in this series be called a true Paladin?

17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Bard  Bards had the combined abilities of both fighters and thieves, in addition to their newly acquired lore, druidic spells,  additional languages known, a special ability to know legendary information about magic items they may encounter, and a percentage chance to automatically charm any creature that hears the bard's magical music.

The female version of this tends to be called a "Singer" or "Dancer" in my experience and can range from being actual fighters to purely been stat-boosters and moral support. For some reason, I always think of Sansa as this since she does have a way of charming those around her with her social intelligence and grace. Plus, she quells the fury of Sandor with a song.

17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Cleric  Clerics are versatile figures, both capable in combat and skilled in the use of divine magic. Clerics are powerful healers due to the large number of healing and curative magics available to them. With divinely-granted abilities over life or death, they are also able to repel or control undead creatures.

Well, we have good ol' Thoros for this... and the Others, depending on how you look at it.  Though they would probably be Warlocks. Another good class for Thoros would be a Swordmage as he literally lights his sword on fire for fighting, or even a Red Mage using both black and white magic though not being a proficient in them.

17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Ranger  Rangers are hunters and skilled woodsmen, and often live reclusive lives as hermits.  Rangers also gained an animal empathy ability which allowed them to calm frightened or hostile animals.

Meera is described as a maid and "Huntress", pretty much making her like the archetype for Artemis, the goddess of the hunt. They are also known for their "Trap" ability as well in a lot of RPGs which matches her use of a net in battle. She also comes from a secluded people known as the crannogmen who are known to live pretty much. She and her father Howland Reed are quintessential Ranger class. 

17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Is there a better explanation for the Wizard class? 

I don't know much at all about Dungeons & Dragons classes though I had a fella who did. As for me, I know a bit about Final Fantasy jobs and their roles as well as Fire Emblem classes. I'm a nerd in that regard, at least.

Essentially, a wizard (or "sage"/"mage"), as far as I remember, is essentially a magic user who uses spells that are studied/acquired/learned rather than innate or given to them by someone else. I don't remember how it rolls in D&D but in most FF-like RPGs, you need to find or buy spells for them to learn and they need to be of a certain level in order to do the more powerful spells. It's all about studying and acquiring those spell scrolls in order to be effective... So, in asoiaf, I'd say people like Marwyn the Mage is a "Wizard".

Thing is in asoiaf, the term "wizard" is mentioned and thought about in terms of Bloodraven (I think by Coldhands and Bran) but I would consider him more of a "Sorcerer". It might be because 'crazy ol' guy in a tree' is synonymous with figures like Merlin who is often cited as a "wizard" (though by D&D standards, I'd call Merlin as "druid"). One might call Bloodraven's ability to skinchange as "Druid" class, too. This pretty much makes Bran a "Druid" as well, which is unsurprising seeing as "greenseer" in this world really does feel like it would be the "druid" class in a hypothetical RPG where we actually played as these characters.

Nothing is perfect, though, as @hiemal rightly points out -- D&D especially is way too rigid to capture the complexity of the characters with the alignment. Same with the classes. The good thing about classes/jobs, though, is that they are very flexible and spawn numerous "sister" classes too. But alignment... can anyone truly fit some of the major characters into alignments?

The Barbarian class... even the wildlings I wouldn't necessary stick in this field. Tommund is probably the closest to a "strength" fighter there is.

Maybe Jon Snow and Ned Stark would fit into the Lawful Good section for the most part but, when push comes to shove, they are really Neutral Good as they do have limits to their "honour". Brienne is probably the closest to a "Lawful Good" (as I said when I cited her as the Paladin). Cersei is pretty Chaotic Evil but that's because she is literally mentally unhinged.

Most assassins are supposed to be True Neutrals (I seem to recall my fella telling me that some classes simply don't work with certain alignments - i.e. you can't have a chaotic neutral paladin or a lawful good assassin, which forces your hand on some choices and get into the role ). With that in mind, can anyone dare to call Arya Stark a True Neutral? Nope. She's a bit too Chaotic to work.

[Curled Finger]

11 hours ago, hiemal said:

I don't know that GRRM would do much with the classes from D&D- the system seems too ordered and rigidly unrealistic for anything but irony in Westeros. What I do suspect is that some of the early history of this world- stuff from the Age of Heroes- might be something that GRRM has cobbled together from some kind of table-top (probably) role-playing game campaign as a way to provide a mythic framework upon which to place the patchwork quilt of history, myth, and fiction that is the "unseen history of Planetos". There is a patchwork quality to the names and stories that I am intuitively ascribing to some kind of group endeavor, something that he wanted to include a little something from every participant.

Absolute tinfoil and not very useful in making predictions but I thought it worth mentioning.

Actually, hiemal, your tinfoil is not so tinfoily at all.   As you know, I have zero experience with any of this.   I would not expect GRRM to adhere to absolutes anywhere--it's not his style.   That said, with such obvious influences from mythology and other fantasy works, I thought this might be worth a try too.   Since my disappointing 1st read of ASOIAF I have learned to enjoy the references a great deal.  Things I did not understand now glare at me because I've learned!   That's all this is--an effort to understand yet another influence.   You may be absolutely right.  With the little understanding I have I do see a sort of "category" some characters may fit in.   Specifically, Jamie as a "fighter"--who knew they were commanders and strategists?   If nothing else, I now see where these bards are so important to the overall story.   Maybe our ASOIAF bards are not the same as D&D bards--but it's clear they are important in this other realm that appears to have been very important to our author.   It's impressive that Martin would be able to incorporate a pop culture board game into a literary masterpiece.   Kinda puts D&D up there with King Arthur in my mind.  

[Curled Finger]

10 hours ago, Asshai Backward said:

I've left this on the back burner because I wasn't sure what if any relevance it might have, but I noticed a while ago that many of our protagonists have each in turn been profoundly affected by an encounter with characters who very much fit these sorts of archetypes.  The interactions were almost always of the kind that turned our protagonists' paths much more firmly towards their "destinies."

Jon--Quorin-the Ranger/Fighter.  Jon's career in the Night's Watch, and his role in the big picture, turned on Quorin's inclusion in his little fellowship.  I don't believe it was a chance thing, or something Quorin did on a whim, but that is probably another story.

Dany--Quaithe-the Enchantress?  (Not sure about all those magical sub-classes). She played a pivotal role during Dany's "wandering in the desert" face.

Tyrion--Moqorro--the Cleric.  It was the availability of Moqorro's chartered ship that turned Tyrion's fate on a dime, but perhaps even moreso, the way he tells Tyrion of his place in it all may have even greater significance, as might events yet to play out in Mereen.

Arya--Jaquen--the Assassin.  Pretty clear the role he's played in Arya's journey.

Jaimie/Cersei--Qyburn--the Necromancer.  Maybe a bit murky, but his role with Jaime's sword hand, which seems to be a major turning point, as well as how he influences Cersei...still working on that.

As you might note, all those archetypal characters have something in common--the letter Q.  Coincidence probably, but I wouldn't put it past Martin.  Having said that, I haven't unearthed any other Q characters that fit the bill, particularly in Bran's case.  Unless Coldhands is Qorgyle...

Ah Asshai, this is the type of reply I hoped for.   Just a few similarities.   I have a list in my own mind for a some of our ASOIAF characters that are similar to the character classes, though I admit the sideway references are something I hadn't considered at all.    That was really insightful, my friend, and well worth considering.  Your Qs will no doubt plague my dreams for a week.  It's good to have brought a back burner realization to the fore.  Since this is not a new idea to you I hope you will share any other interactions you've noticed!   

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, Faera said:

So, basically, if asoiaf was a tabletop or videogame RPG, what classes would our heroes be in?

Most of them would be some class of fighter. I'd actually class Jon as akin to a "Warlock/Fighter" which would probably make him a sort of "Dark Knight" character.

Ah, yes. These guys are essentially locked into the "Lawful Good" category as far as I can recall. While Brienne Tarth is not a spellcaster per se in holy magic she's about the only character who matches this image of purity. Even then, it's tainted. Seriously, can any character in this series be called a true Paladin?

The female version of this tends to be called a "Singer" or "Dancer" in my experience and can range from being actual fighters to purely been stat-boosters and moral support. For some reason, I always think of Sansa as this since she does have a way of charming those around her with her social intelligence and grace. Plus, she quells the fury of Sandor with a song.

Well, we have good ol' Thoros for this... and the Others, depending on how you look at it.  Though they would probably be Warlocks. Another good class for Thoros would be a Swordmage as he literally lights his sword on fire for fighting, or even a Red Mage using both black and white magic though not being a proficient in them.

Meera is described as a maid and "Huntress", pretty much making her like the archetype for Artemis, the goddess of the hunt. They are also known for their "Trap" ability as well in a lot of RPGs which matches her use of a net in battle. She also comes from a secluded people known as the crannogmen who are known to live pretty much. She and her father Howland Reed are quintessential Ranger class. 

I don't know much at all about Dungeons & Dragons classes though I had a fella who did. As for me, I know a bit about Final Fantasy jobs and their roles as well as Fire Emblem classes. I'm a nerd in that regard, at least.

Essentially, a wizard (or "sage"/"mage"), as far as I remember, is essentially a magic user who uses spells that are studied/acquired/learned rather than innate or given to them by someone else. I don't remember how it rolls in D&D but in most FF-like RPGs, you need to find or buy spells for them to learn and they need to be of a certain level in order to do the more powerful spells. It's all about studying and acquiring those spell scrolls in order to be effective... So, in asoiaf, I'd say people like Marwyn the Mage is a "Wizard".

Thing is in asoiaf, the term "wizard" is mentioned and thought about in terms of Bloodraven (I think by Coldhands and Bran) but I would consider him more of a "Sorcerer". It might be because 'crazy ol' guy in a tree' is synonymous with figures like Merlin who is often cited as a "wizard" (though by D&D standards, I'd call Merlin as "druid"). One might call Bloodraven's ability to skinchange as "Druid" class, too. This pretty much makes Bran a "Druid" as well, which is unsurprising seeing as "greenseer" in this world really does feel like it would be the "druid" class in a hypothetical RPG where we actually played as these characters.

Nothing is perfect, though, as @hiemal rightly points out -- D&D especially is way too rigid to capture the complexity of the characters with the alignment. Same with the classes. The good thing about classes/jobs, though, is that they are very flexible and spawn numerous "sister" classes too. But alignment... can anyone truly fit some of the major characters into alignments?

The Barbarian class... even the wildlings I wouldn't necessary stick in this field. Tommund is probably the closest to a "strength" fighter there is.

Maybe Jon Snow and Ned Stark would fit into the Lawful Good section for the most part but, when push comes to shove, they are really Neutral Good as they do have limits to their "honour". Brienne is probably the closest to a "Lawful Good" (as I said when I cited her as the Paladin). Cersei is pretty Chaotic Evil but that's because she is literally mentally unhinged.

Most assassins are supposed to be True Neutrals (I seem to recall my fella telling me that some classes simply don't work with certain alignments - i.e. you can't have a chaotic neutral paladin or a lawful good assassin, which forces your hand on some choices and get into the role ). With that in mind, can anyone dare to call Arya Stark a True Neutral? Nope. She's a bit too Chaotic to work.

Faera, you always bring so much to every conversation, it's gratifying to see this caught your attention at all.   My brother who is a big fantasy geek called me chaotic neutral once.   Only now do I even begin to understand what he was saying so long ago.   I have only minimal concepts of these classifications, so please forgive me for not really being able to give your reply all it deserves.   It's obvious you and @Lollygag see importance in the alignments.  

When this idea initially occurred to me sometime last week I really bugged my friends in an effort to wrap my head around the character classes.   I played Diablo, a game by the makers of WoW, so I knew a little bit about some characters.  However, my "knowledge" was based on 1) real definition and 2) limited experience in game playing.   What I know is a Rogue in no way really relates here.  Hence this new quest for refined definition.   Other than Sam and Marwyn being called wizards, I'm still unsure of this meaning as related to both D&D and ASOIAF.  Marwyn is after all, a magician and Sam is just smart.  It's probably unwise to try to link them, but how can it be helped?   

Brienne is true knight to me.  Hers was the face of Gallahad when I read The Once and Future King.  So here I am presented with a paladin who fits true knight definition better than the other fighters or warriors or whatever we are to call the class in this scenario.   However, she lacks religious zeal--or does she?  I counter with knighthood is her religion.   In the initial stages of my interviews I was certain Kingsguard and Nights Watch were monks--blinded again by preconceived notion.  That made Jon a monk and there is no way he fits this classification.  It's obvious the Red Priests are some sort of magic worker and you did a nice job breaking those classifications down.  As I assembled the list and awkward definitions in the OP I sort of gave up on categorizing the magic workers.   You were and are an active participant in the Sorcerers and Swords discussion where the differences between learned and innate magic became prevalent.   I'm leaving what Bran and Bloodraven are up to the community.  I just don't have enough experience to really discern the subtle difference between druids and sorcerers.   

This is far more of a fishing expedition than informative topic.   You know I revel in a good discussion and this does not disappoint.    I welcome any further thoughts you have here and look forward to learning a few more things, perhaps actually honing my definitions of the character classifications.    

[hiemal]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Actually, hiemal, your tinfoil is not so tinfoily at all.   As you know, I have zero experience with any of this.   I would not expect GRRM to adhere to absolutes anywhere--it's not his style.   That said, with such obvious influences from mythology and other fantasy works, I thought this might be worth a try too.   Since my disappointing 1st read of ASOIAF I have learned to enjoy the references a great deal.  Things I did not understand now glare at me because I've learned!   That's all this is--an effort to understand yet another influence.   You may be absolutely right.  With the little understanding I have I do see a sort of "category" some characters may fit in.   Specifically, Jamie as a "fighter"--who knew they were commanders and strategists?   If nothing else, I now see where these bards are so important to the overall story.   Maybe our ASOIAF bards are not the same as D&D bards--but it's clear they are important in this other realm that appears to have been very important to our author.   It's impressive that Martin would be able to incorporate a pop culture board game into a literary masterpiece.   Kinda puts D&D up there with King Arthur in my mind.  

On Bards:

Bards in ASoIaF seem to exist in the class of Outsiders which also includes Fools, Lunatics, Bastards, Cripples, and to an extant Foreign Elements. Bards act in opposition to the maesters as keepers of History, favoring rhyme and romance over the maesters' attempts to manipulate history to produce a sane and rational world. They are thus put in the position- like Fools- of being able to speak Truth to Power, although some of the bards in our story have obviously pushed that too far...

[hiemal]

Barbarians are also outsiders, by definition, but their role is less formalized than bards or fools. The Wildlings in all of their varieties as well as the Hill Tribes clearly fall into this category but I think the Tribesman from the Mountains of the Moon might be a more useful "class" example- they are less diverse than the Wildlings proper and more on-page than the Hill Tribes. Their outsider status allows them to get up to all kinds of trouble in Kings' Landing, for example. My burning question is how much of their murderous reputation is carefully manipulated PR work? While I think the Mountains of the Moon breeds hard men and women, but not stupid ones and I think that some of their bluster is for show.

Shagga, for example, seems to speak of different things when he speaks of cutting it off of people and disposing of it some way. The logical assumption is that he talking about making eunuchs but he goes for Pycelle's beard when prompted by Tyrion to cut off his manhood and I also suspect that goats would not be interested in bloody genitals but might go for a soup-soaked beard. I think he is more nuanced that a casual listener might assume and his tribe might practice some kind of combat ritual like the Dothraki that ranges in severity from cutting of the losers beard to actual castration depending on circumstances? The Black Ears do something similar, but again, they don't actually kill by preference. The Burned Men could perhaps be taking this to the extreme and building up a reputation for fierceness by self-mutilation? I wish we could see how they were when they are "at home" as it were...

[Curled Finger]

32 minutes ago, hiemal said:

On Bards:

Bards in ASoIaF seem to exist in the class of Outsiders which also includes Fools, Lunatics, Bastards, Cripples, and to an extant Foreign Elements. Bards act in opposition to the maesters as keepers of History, favoring rhyme and romance over the maesters' attempts to manipulate history to produce a sane and rational world. They are thus put in the position- like Fools- of being able to speak Truth to Power, although some of the bards in our story have obviously pushed that too far...

I was hoping to get into Bards more deeply, thankee kindly Sai.  I gather from your explanation that Outsiders are something of an equivalent to non-mainstream sub cultures in our world?  I noticed the word "fanatic" was missing from your line up?  OK, so a Bard maintains folklore and arcane knowledge of history and events?  What do you make of Mance singing The Dornishman's Wife?  He is a Bard I gather.   Patchface speaks in riddles which are interpreted as prophecy so check on that one.   Lunatics put me in a mind to recall Ezekial but also Melisandre.  Cripples...hmm, Bran and Jamie, perhaps Theon, are all that come to mind immediately.   The Outsiders are the folks Tyrion has a soft spot for?  Could you elaborate on those bards who have pushed the limits of Speaking to Truth too far?  I'd like to get a better handle on that.   

[Curled Finger]

5 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Barbarians are also outsiders, by definition, but their role is less formalized than bards or fools. The Wildlings in all of their varieties as well as the Hill Tribes clearly fall into this category but I think the Tribesman from the Mountains of the Moon might be a more useful "class" example- they are less diverse than the Wildlings proper and more on-page than the Hill Tribes. Their outsider status allows them to get up to all kinds of trouble in Kings' Landing, for example. My burning question is how much of their murderous reputation is carefully manipulated PR work? While I think the Mountains of the Moon breeds hard men and women, but not stupid ones and I think that some of their bluster is for show.

Shagga, for example, seems to speak of different things when he speaks of cutting it off of people and disposing of it some way. The logical assumption is that he talking about making eunuchs but he goes for Pycelle's beard when prompted by Tyrion to cut off his manhood and I also suspect that goats would not be interested in bloody genitals but might go for a soup-soaked beard. I think he is more nuanced that a casual listener might assume and his tribe might practice some kind of combat ritual like the Dothraki that ranges in severity from cutting of the losers beard to actual castration depending on circumstances? The Black Ears do something similar, but again, they don't actually kill by preference. The Burned Men could perhaps be taking this to the extreme and building up a reputation for fierceness by self-mutilation? I wish we could see how they were when they are "at home" as it were...

Funny when I read Barbarians I thought of the Cleganes with all their rage!   Now this is very interesting and most insightful about the Mountain Clans.   Equating a beard with manhood is obviously what Martin did here, with all the later references to the former glory of Pycell's beard.  Nice!  You know who else performs a type of self mutilation?   The Thenns, who are by and large my very favorite Wildlings just by virture of their strangeness.  They burn their faces then rub ash into the wounds to pronounce the color of the scarring in a sort of macabre tattoo.   Is the callousing of feet as seen in the Hornfoots and High Sparrow another form of self mutilation?  I believe it was you again, who introduced me to the possible backstory of the Burned Men having found Nettles.  Yes, a weekend with the Burned Men at ease would be very interesting.  Great stuff, hiemal, please keep it coming as it occurs to you! 

[hiemal]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

I was hoping to get into Bards more deeply, thankee kindly Sai.  I gather from your explanation that Outsiders are something of an equivalent to non-mainstream sub cultures in our world?  I noticed the word "fanatic" was missing from your line up?  OK, so a Bard maintains folklore and arcane knowledge of history and events?  What do you make of Mance singing The Dornishman's Wife?  He is a Bard I gather.   Patchface speaks in riddles which are interpreted as prophecy so check on that one.   Lunatics put me in a mind to recall Ezekial but also Melisandre.  Cripples...hmm, Bran and Jamie, perhaps Theon, are all that come to mind immediately.   The Outsiders are the folks Tyrion has a soft spot for?  Could you elaborate on those bards who have pushed the limits of Speaking to Truth too far?  I'd like to get a better handle on that.   

The bard who Joffrey allowed to choose between his hands and tongue and Symon Silver-tongue spring to mind. It seems Tom O' Sevens came close with Edmure Tully and the "Floppy Fish" song. Birds (bards) that are seen tend to end badly- and then we have the Blue Bard and Marillion who sing in captivity, both in the dark.

The Outsiders are people who fall outside of the traditional, feudal Westerosi power structure. Fanatics are an interesting example because they might be considered Outsiders of the Faith, along with the Silent Sisters. They definitely qualify and thanks for bringing them up.

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

George went out of his way to make his characters difficult to classify.  I don't think we can accurately use this classification to organize and label the main characters.

[Faera]

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Faera, you always bring so much to every conversation, it's gratifying to see this caught your attention at all.   My brother who is a big fantasy geek called me chaotic neutral once.   Only now do I even begin to understand what he was saying so long ago.   I have only minimal concepts of these classifications, so please forgive me for not really being able to give your reply all it deserves.   It's obvious you and @Lollygag see importance in the alignments.  

When this idea initially occurred to me sometime last week I really bugged my friends in an effort to wrap my head around the character classes.   I played Diablo, a game by the makers of WoW, so I knew a little bit about some characters.  However, my "knowledge" was based on 1) real definition and 2) limited experience in game playing.   What I know is a Rogue in no way really relates here.  Hence this new quest for refined definition.   Other than Sam and Marwyn being called wizards, I'm still unsure of this meaning as related to both D&D and ASOIAF.  Marwyn is after all, a magician and Sam is just smart.  It's probably unwise to try to link them, but how can it be helped?   

Brienne is true knight to me.  Hers was the face of Gallahad when I read The Once and Future King.  So here I am presented with a paladin who fits true knight definition better than the other fighters or warriors or whatever we are to call the class in this scenario.   However, she lacks religious zeal--or does she?  I counter with knighthood is her religion.   In the initial stages of my interviews I was certain Kingsguard and Nights Watch were monks--blinded again by preconceived notion.  That made Jon a monk and there is no way he fits this classification.  It's obvious the Red Priests are some sort of magic worker and you did a nice job breaking those classifications down.  As I assembled the list and awkward definitions in the OP I sort of gave up on categorizing the magic workers.   You were and are an active participant in the Sorcerers and Swords discussion where the differences between learned and innate magic became prevalent.   I'm leaving what Bran and Bloodraven are up to the community.  I just don't have enough experience to really discern the subtle difference between druids and sorcerers.   

This is far more of a fishing expedition than informative topic.   You know I revel in a good discussion and this does not disappoint.    I welcome any further thoughts you have here and look forward to learning a few more things, perhaps actually honing my definitions of the character classifications.    

Ultimately, the D&D classifications can only take us so far. We can use them as a spring point and I think this should be expanded to other RPGs, since D&D gave rise to a lot of RPGs today so it is all under the same umbrella. From there you can start to identify the asoiaf archetypes, which can encompass the different jobs/classes of fantasy as well as the traditional alignment without necessarily being married to it. This way they don't need to adhere to a strict set of rules. Characters can be deeply complex and different from each other but still be an archetype.

It would be interesting to see recurring character types between each POV.  Off the top of my head, I'd say that Cersei Lannister and Arianne Martell could be said to belong to the same "archetype" - are there any non-POV characters or historical GRRM characters who followed a very similar modus operandi of seductress with half-baked plans and daddy issues?

The classic one: GRRM loves the Arya character but what is an "Arya" type? Many people think tomboy or non-traditional female but... can we really say that the other non-conforming female characters align with Arya in terms of class or alignment? Asha, Meera, Brienne, Ygritte, or even Val. Do they belong to the same archetype because of their "alignments" or personality? I'd say not. Not only are all of these characters constantly changing their world view (something which, unless you are neutral in D&D you don't get as much flexibility on). Are they the same sort of women in terms of their fighting choices? Not really. As I said before... is it even possible to "categorise" an 'Arya type' at all? Should we consider a key part of the archetype to be their role as a foil? Like the "Cain and Abel" i.e. Arya and Sansa?

If I were to align most of the characters I would probably rank them as neutral or chaotic..

Sorry if I'm not making sense. I'm just throwing out my own half-baked ideas in a tired stupor, aha. 

(By the way, does anyone else find it weird to write D&D without thinking of the you-know-whos? I might start writing DnD for Dungeons & Dragons instead... )

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, hiemal said:

The bard who Joffrey allowed to choose between his hands and tongue and Symon Silver-tongue spring to mind. It seems Tom O' Sevens came close with Edmure Tully and the "Floppy Fish" song. Birds (bards) that are seen tend to end badly- and then we have the Blue Bard and Marillion who sing in captivity, both in the dark.

The Outsiders are people who fall outside of the traditional, feudal Westerosi power structure. Fanatics are an interesting example because they might be considered Outsiders of the Faith, along with the Silent Sisters. They definitely qualify and thanks for bringing them up.

Now that's great.  Thanks hiemal, so much to really think about in this.  

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

George went out of his way to make his characters difficult to classify.  I don't think we can accurately use this classification to organize and label the main characters.

OK.  Thanks for your thoughts. 

[Curled Finger]

56 minutes ago, Faera said:

Ultimately, the D&D classifications can only take us so far. We can use them as a spring point and I think this should be expanded to other RPGs, since D&D gave rise to a lot of RPGs today so it is all under the same umbrella. From there you can start to identify the asoiaf archetypes, which can encompass the different jobs/classes of fantasy as well as the traditional alignment without necessarily being married to it. This way they don't need to adhere to a strict set of rules. Characters can be deeply complex and different from each other but still be an archetype.

It would be interesting to see recurring character types between each POV.  Off the top of my head, I'd say that Cersei Lannister and Arianne Martell could be said to belong to the same "archetype" - are there any non-POV characters or historical GRRM characters who followed a very similar modus operandi of seductress with half-baked plans and daddy issues?

The classic one: GRRM loves the Arya character but what is an "Arya" type? Many people think tomboy or non-traditional female but... can we really say that the other non-conforming female characters align with Arya in terms of class or alignment? Asha, Meera, Brienne, Ygritte, or even Val. Do they belong to the same archetype because of their "alignments" or personality? I'd say not. Not only are all of these characters constantly changing their world view (something which, unless you are neutral in D&D you don't get as much flexibility on). Are they the same sort of women in terms of their fighting choices? Not really. As I said before... is it even possible to "categorise" an 'Arya type' at all? Should we consider a key part of the archetype to be their role as a foil? Like the "Cain and Abel" i.e. Arya and Sansa?

If I were to align most of the characters I would probably rank them as neutral or chaotic..

Sorry if I'm not making sense. I'm just throwing out my own half-baked ideas in a tired stupor, aha. 

(By the way, does anyone else find it weird to write D&D without thinking of the you-know-whos? I might start writing DnD for Dungeons & Dragons instead... )

Haha, Lollygag thought the same thing.  

I want to stay focused on DnD because of the information in the essays.  I don't know how long George has been with his wife, but the essay tells of her going to his closed office door to listen for the sound of typing keys or tumbling dice.  GRRM was badly sidetracked by this game, not others that I know of.  

Contrare, my dear, you always make sense.   I understand where you're going.  As much as folks want to discount this little exercise as unimportant, I read the essay and it's clear the game was a problem and of deep interest to GRRM.  Of course not all the characters fit any sort of classification, still I wonder how many sprang forth from the influence of the game.   I don't need exact matches.  Just hoping for folks like you who do have some experience to point me in the right direction.   

[Yaya]

i never thought about the characters in a D&D way, thanks for getting the old thinking gears in motion again Curled Finger!

the first thing that sprang into my head as i was reading was this is a great way to, potentially, better analyze who the group of friends are that will walk the walk with the hero and his horse and dog.  we need to have a representative of each sort of skill set if you catch my drift.

next thought was - could this be a way to classify the valaryian swords - i'm thinking the "personality" of the sword' for example a scorcer's sword vs a fighter's sword - do the swords match up to the ones who have held them or have yet to hold them?  you know, the "thiefy" character must, in the "final fight", be holding the "thief" sword ...