Jaime and Aegon

[kissdbyfire]

20 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Which Brotherhood? The one under LSH or the one made of former Brotherhood members?

They are split into two factions at the moment but are still one group. 

[Kandrax]

13 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

They are split into two factions at the moment but are still one group. 

I thought some of them left Lsh.

[Lord Varys]

18 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

@Lord Varys, I'm just curious: Why would Jaime weep with joy at the return of the Targaryen era and why would he betray his own children either by revealing the truth about their parentage or by supporting someone who wants to overthrow / has just overthrown the Tommen / Myrcella regime, someone who has reason to want Tommen and Myrcella dead? Or do you think Jaime's children will be dead by that time? If their deaths are linked to Aegon, will Jaime be willing to support Aegon? His guilt about Rhaegar notwithstanding, will he, in this scenario, still see Aegon as the innocent child he failed to protect once? Jaime is not a model father, but we have never seen him act against his children's interests, unless I have forgotten something.

There is not necessary a causal link between all that.

Jaime decided to tell Tommen and Myrcella the truth in AFfC/ADwD. He will likely be forced to go through with that decision - in a manner he did not intend or foresee - to save his miserable life when dealing with Lady Stoneheart. What else could convince Catelyn to not hang the man who, according to her knowledge, was a crucial force behind the Red Wedding?

Tommen and Myrcella might already be dead when Aegon takes the throne - and it is not unlikely that Jaime's revelation about their true parentage will hasten their demise. It is the kind of revelation that could trigger a mad mob of sparrows to storm the castle and crush the boy king's head against some wall to end the miserable life of the abomination.

Jaime has no emotional link/connection with his children - not with Joffrey, but also not with his other children. He doesn't care about them. He tried to care about Tommen but he failed miserably at that.

Jaime's really open wounds lie with Rhaegar, Elia, and their children - they are the ones he failed. They are the ones he didn't save. They are the ones whose deaths he never avenged. The weirwood dream very much shows that this is his Achilles heel. Else the fire in his sword wouldn't have gone out.

Now, we also have to keep in mind the tremendous effect Aegon's return from the dead will have on Jaime. It will he didn't fail Rhaegar completely - sure, Elia and Rhaenys are still dead, but they are women, Aegon is Rhaegar's son. If Jaime can protect/save Rhaegar he'll be whole again. A real knight of the Kingsguard, not a travesty, serving his own son by his sister while fucking her and dreaming about murdering her husband, the king. He would have and opportunity to try to be what he wanted to be when he joined Aerys' Kingsguard.

And considering how self-involved and overconfident/stupid Jaime is, this whole thing will just smell too sweet for him to let it pass.

Could also be he has no choice in the matter - let's say Jaime does what Cat demands of him, beginning with the retaking of Riverrun (and the murders of Genna and Emmon) and the rescue of Edmure and Jeyne, and the freeing of the hostages. Once the outlaws and the Riverlords learn about Aegon they will want to get his support against the Lannisters and their allies (or at least ensure that he doesn't turn against them). Brienne could be send as envoy to Storm's End or King's Landing, accompanied by Bonifer Hasty and the Holy Hundred (who most likely will join Aegon, since he once loved his grandmother), delivering Jaime Lannister as a gift to this new king.

And from there things could go down the way I laid out above.

Tommen and Myrcella may be long dead by then. It is not very likely that Aegon will be directly involved in their deaths. Varys is going to ensure that the hands of his golden boy remain as clean as snow. That is crucial for his success. And there are so many ways Tommen and Myrcella could die - they don't even have to die violent deaths.

[kissdbyfire]

17 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

I thought some of them left Lsh.

Yeah, some among them are not happy w/ LSH and her thirst for revenge above all else. But as of yet they haven't split into two different groups. And w/ a new leader it might not come to that. 

[The Fattest Leech]

45 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

My two penny worth is he wouldn't. 

ASoS, Jaime II 

"Tell them the Mad King is dead," he commanded. "Spare all those who yield and hold them captive."

"Shall I proclaim a new king as well?" Crakehall asked, and Jaime read the question plain: Shall it be your father, or Robert Baratheon, or do you mean to try to make a new dragonking? He thought for a moment of the boy Viserys, fled to Dragonstone, and of Rhaegar's infant son Aegon, still in Maegor's with his mother. A new Targaryen king, and my father as Hand. How the wolves will howl, and the storm lord choke with rage. For a moment he was tempted, until he glanced down again at the body on the floor, in its spreading pool of blood. His blood is in both of them, he thought. "Proclaim who you bloody well like," he told Crakehall. Then he climbed the Iron Throne and seated himself with his sword across his knees, to see who would come to claim the kingdom. As it happened, it had been Eddard Stark. 

I don't see Jaime supporting a Targaryen restoration, and most definitely not before he feels very confident that the claimant hasn't inherited Aerys's winning personality, cruelty, and mental instability. 

Beyond Aegon VI, I always wonder what the author has in mind if Dany and Jaime meet and she has her Dothraki hoarde with her. I wonder if he will have any type of PTSD after a Dothraki chopped off his hand with his arakh and was one of the ones who tried to rape Brienne.

[Dofs]

Quote

How much can a crown be worth, when a crow can dine upon a king?

Jaime doesn't believe in royal blood, rightful kings and divine right to rule. Yes, he feels guilty over failing to protect Rhaegar's children, but because they were innocent children, not because they were Targaryens. Hence I just don't see him fighting to put some boy on the throne with a claim that Jaime doesn't care about.

[Lollygag]

I’ve strongly suspected that Bran was a big reason for Jaime being so committed to Sansa and Arya.

With Aegon, Jaime was only 1 of 7 and not all-powerful. He was a kid. Aerys forced the situation which led to Aegon’s and Rhaeny’s deaths. Beyond that, it was Pycelle who convinced Aerys to open the gates and Tywin who neglected to contain his men (or so he says). Tywin’s awful, but I can’t imagine Jaime expected that, and anyhow, Jaime couldn’t beat out Tywin’s army on his own. There’s a lot of factors there and it's not all on Jaime.

But when it comes to Bran, it was all Jaime. Completely. If Jaime needs to decide between the Starks and Aegon, I see the Starks (or rather keeping his oath) as the thing that will win out. What happened with the Targs took place off-page. But that's not the case with Bran and the Starks. Stories tend to go where the author devotes time. Add to that BR seems almost desperate to keep Bran from remembering that it was Jaime and there was Jaime's BR dream meaning Jaime is important to Bran's arc.

I don’t think Jaime will be swearing to anyone anymore. Sounds like he’s done with it. He’ll  do what he wants when he wants, no commitment.

3 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Beyond Aegon VI, I always wonder what the author has in mind if Dany and Jaime meet and she has her Dothraki hoarde with her. I wonder if he will have any type of PTSD after a Dothraki chopped off his hand with his arakh and was one of the ones who tried to rape Brienne.

I wonder this too. I think something with Dany is much more likely than something with Aegon especially given Aegon's hardly burning with revenge over his "death". Jaime's hand killed Aerys. Jaime's hand tried to kill Bran. But Jaime's lost his hand. 
 

Mark 9:43-47 King James Version (KJV)

⁴³ And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

It looks to me like Jaime is set up to be in a very interesting position regarding the two most magical main characters in the series.

 

 

[Kandrax]

6 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, some among them are not happy w/ LSH and her thirst for revenge above all else. But as of yet they haven't split into two different groups. And w/ a new leader it might not come to that. 

Well, appendix show them as splited.

[kissdbyfire]

20 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Well, appendix show them as splited.

Really? Which one?

[Kandrax]

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Really? Which one?

AFFC. But, maybe this is only serbian version.

[kissdbyfire]

18 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

AFFC. But, maybe this is only serbian version.

My ebook doesn't, and right now I'm feeling too lazy to go check the books.

. 

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

Jaime doesn't believe in royal blood, rightful kings and divine right to rule. Yes, he feels guilty over failing to protect Rhaegar's children, but because they were innocent children, not because they were Targaryens. Hence I just don't see him fighting to put some boy on the throne with a claim that Jaime doesn't care about.

Last I looked Jaime thought he was the heir to Casterly Rock because he was the eldest son of one Lord Tywin Lannister. But I'm sure that's a mistake.

Everybody in the Seven Kingdoms cares about the right of blood and the right of primogeniture. That's the guiding legal principle of the entire society.

[kissdbyfire]

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Last I looked Jaime thought he was the heir to Casterly Rock because he was the eldest son of one Lord Tywin Lannister. But I'm sure that's a mistake.

Glad you're sure, because it most definitely is a mistake.

 

ASoS, Jaime II 

"The king won't ask him. And once it's done, Father can't object, not openly. Aerys had Ser Ilyn Payne's tongue torn out just for boasting that it was the Hand who truly ruled the Seven Kingdoms. The captain of the Hand's guard, and yet Father dared not try and stop it! He won't stop this, either."

"But," Jaime said, "there's Casterly Rock . . ." 

"Is it a rock you want? Or me?"

And we all know which one he wanted. 

Then later we have him telling Cersei Tommen can have the Rock.

ASoS, Jaime VII 

"Did you leave your wits at Riverrun?" Her voice had an edge to it. "Tommen's throne derives from Robert, you know that."

"He'll have Casterly Rock, isn't that enough? Let Father sit the throne. All I want is you." He made to touch her cheek. Old habits die hard, and it was his right arm he lifted. 

Cersei recoiled from his stump. "Don't . . . don't talk like this. You're scaring me, Jaime. Don't be stupid. One wrong word and you'll cost us everything. What did they do to you?"

And he meant it, too. Cersei was all he ever wanted. Up to this very moment, but still. 

Jaime doesn't give two fucks about CR. 

 

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

8 hours ago, Dofs said:

Jaime doesn't believe in royal blood, rightful kings and divine right to rule. Yes, he feels guilty over failing to protect Rhaegar's children, but because they were innocent children, not because they were Targaryens. Hence I just don't see him fighting to put some boy on the throne with a claim that Jaime doesn't care about.

What he does remains to be seen, but Jaime does call Rhaegar the rightful heir to the Iron Throne in his weirwood stump dream. I think it's telling of his feelings on the matter. 

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Glad you're sure, because it most definitely is a mistake.

Jaime likes fucking Cersei more than he likes becoming Lord of Casterly Rock, but that doesn't mean he doesn't care about blood claims or the right of primogeniture. Just like you not wanting to take over the family business (because you find it boring, perhaps) doesn't necessarily mean you want it handed over to the rabble.

Tommen eventually inheriting Casterly Rock - thanks to Cersei having inherited the title from Tywin - is also based on a blood claim.

9 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

What he does remains to be seen, but Jaime does call Rhaegar the rightful heir to the Iron Throne in his weirwood stump dream. I think it's telling of his feelings on the matter. 

It is pretty clear that Jaime worshiped Rhaegar and wanted to fight with him at the Trident. He begged the man to take him with him.

Jaime grew up looking to the Targaryens as the rightful kings of Westeros. He sure as hell believed Rhaegar was the rightful heir. And if he was that, Aegon as Rhaegar's heir also has a claim. A much better claim that Jaime's bastard son.

[AlaskanSandman]

Ive just really enjoyed reading the many thoughts on this and thought this was an interesting subject. I really enjoyed some of the thougths for or against, and especially where it could lead him in the future. Its definitely hard for me to imagine Aegon's landing having no impact on Jamie should he survive Lady Stoneheart which i think he will, theres no way Brienne imo will allow it in the end. She'll realize Cat is gone and fight for life.

[AlaskanSandman]

17 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, some among them are not happy w/ LSH and her thirst for revenge above all else. But as of yet they haven't split into two different groups. And w/ a new leader it might not come to that. 

I could see this a great turning point

[Alexis-something-Rose]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is pretty clear that Jaime worshiped Rhaegar and wanted to fight with him at the Trident. He begged the man to take him with him.

Jaime grew up looking to the Targaryens as the rightful kings of Westeros. He sure as hell believed Rhaegar was the rightful heir. And if he was that, Aegon as Rhaegar's heir also has a claim. A much better claim that Jaime's bastard son.

I think beyond this, Jaime and Renly who voiced similar thoughts to Brienne might be the tip of the iceberg as far as what other people might be thinking. 

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I think beyond this, Jaime and Renly who voiced similar thoughts to Brienne might be the tip of the iceberg as far as what other people might be thinking. 

Speaking of Brienne, she comes into play in all that, too. Or does anybody think it is coincidence that Bloodraven painted her as a warrior wielding a burning sword in the weirwood dream? Or that it is a coincidence that TWoIaF revealed that the Tarths are descended from the Targaryens?

Brienne being a rather close close cousin of both Aegon and Daenerys will inevitably draw her into the Targaryen circle. She and Jaime could both join Aegon's Kingsguard, and from there on Brienne might eventually become a major champion in the War for the Dawn, wielding a burning Valyrian steel sword, ignited thanks to the magic of the Targaryen blood pumping in her veins.

Unlike many other main characters, Brienne really has the abilities and strength to become a great hero and leader when winter finally comes.

I'd not be surprised one bit if it turned out that Lord Selwyn fought against Robert at the Trident. That could also explain why Ser Endrew Tarth ended up at the Wall.

Also note that Brienne had a sister named Alysanne who died in infancy.

[Dofs]

14 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

What he does remains to be seen, but Jaime does call Rhaegar the rightful heir to the Iron Throne in his weirwood stump dream. I think it's telling of his feelings on the matter. 

Rhaegar is long dead when Jaime has this dream but at the time he was alive, he was the rightful heir as accepted by everyone and I suspect this dream just channels Jaime's old memories of that time of how he and 7 Kingdoms perceived Rhaegar. After all, Jaime didn't want Rhaegar's children to get the throne, he didn't even care who would get it, just not them.

"...he glanced down again at the body on the floor, in its spreading pool of blood. His blood is in both of them, he thought. "Proclaim who you bloody well like," he told Crakehall."