So how old is civilization in the known world?

[AlaskanSandman]

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

What do you think could be their motivation if they are intentionally distributing misinformation? The Maestors aren't exactly living in luxury, they are respected to be sure but not glorified.

Balance. That or their working for one side. I generally think balance.

[AlaskanSandman]

Black brothers ------------------------------------->Maesters

No kids                                                          check

No lands                                                         check

No wives                                                         check

Live and die at post                                        check

Protect realms of Men                                     check 

Light (Knowledge) in the dark (Ignorance)      check

Weirwood on or near grounds                        check

Serve wall/castle and no other                        check

 

White brothers, Grey Brothers, Black Brothers. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

45 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yes. Martin tells us one thing in a broad over view of the history. Then when you actually read it in depth, you see that it differs greatly than what he inititially tell us. Case in point.

That's the point. You can't. Even in book, the maesters argue over 2000, 4000, 6000 years when the Andals invaded. It doesn't matter how deep you go if there is a fundamental disagreement on basic timeline. The only person who could tell us for sure is GRRM, and he'd just laugh. Elio and Linda prolly could as well but why bother.

It makes little to no sense, in any fashion, for Artys to be crowned in Oldtown.

And never mind, I just saw the rest of your post. It is completely disjointed, unrelated, and a block of irrelevant text. enjoy the thread

[AlaskanSandman]

Just now, Universal Sword Donor said:

That's the point. You can't. Even in book, the maesters argue over 2000, 4000, 6000 years when the Andals invaded. It doesn't matter how deep you go if there is a fundamental disagreement on basic timeline. The only person who could tell us for sure is GRRM, and he'd just laugh. Elio and Linda prolly could as well but why bother.

It makes little to no sense, in any fashion, for Artys to be crowned in Oldtown.

And never mind, I just saw the rest of your post. It is completely disjointed, unrelated, and a block of irrelevant text. enjoy the thread

Well some one is rude,obviously jaded and biased lol and im sure other deeper thinkers picked up on what i said just fine lol unrelated? LMAO hmmmm that seems reaching. Plenty of inbook quotes to help support what im saying though.

[Universal Sword Donor]

27 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well some one is rude,obviously jaded and biased lol and im sure other deeper thinkers picked up on what i said just fine lol unrelated? LMAO hmmmm that seems reaching. Plenty of inbook quotes to help support what im saying though.

Then by all means find them. Because nothing of what you posited makes any sense and most of it is jumbled and completely irrelevant to the point you made about Artys being crowned in oldtown.

You still haven't even said why that would make sense.

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Then by all means find them. Because nothing of what you posited makes any sense and most of it is jumbled and completely irrelevant to the point you made about Artys being crowned in oldtown.

You still haven't even said why that would make sense.

I already did but you wanna play that its non sense cause you apparently disagree with it.

First quote backs that the wars of conquest of the Andals lasted hundreds of years (Probably near a thousand but not, dates are not perfect but likely rounded up or down.).

Next quote explains how old the Arryn Crown is, 1000 years old at the time, 300 years ago. Making the crown 1300 years old.

The Next quote explains that Artys is the first to wear it. 

Mixed with the fact that the Starry Sept was built 1300 years ago upon the Andals finally taking Old Town.

Would all go to imply that Ser Artys led the Andals upon their landing in taking the Vale, then him self actually leading them through the next couple hundred years of Conquest till they finally took Old Town. Explaining why his crown is being made just then. Because he's being crowned for taking Old Town, not the Vale. 

Which i go on to give examples of other people living for just as long.

Then i go on to back the 2000 year mark of the Andals and possibly birth of Artys to the forging of Dawn, as stated by GRRM was forged 2000 years ago. 

To which we all believe Dawn is LightBringer forged at the end of the Long Night for the Battle of the Dawn. 

To which i back up further with the Blackwoods mentioning the Andal invasion at 2000 years ago, and stating that their war with the Brackens began 500-1000 years before that during the Age of Heroes. Meaning the Age of Heroes was between 3000-2000 years ago abouts. May have began sooner later even, but based on those quotes we can pin down at least 3000 years ago, the Age of Heroes was going on, and 2000 years ago, the Long Night possibly ended.

It not disjointed, unrelevant or a block of irrelavent text. Whether you disagree or not. There is a disagreement on the history, yes. We are given one version by the Maesters that they want us to believe. 

But if you take the clues, you can construct the other time line they keep alluding to that is in disagreement by the Maesters, but never given to us in full chronological order. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

So your argument is:

1) Ignore all the timeline debate that exists within maesters

2) Artys Arryn lived for hundreds of years

3) The falcon crown was made (Editors note: it was started to be worn) roughly 1000 years before AC

It not disjointed, unrelevant or a block of irrelavent text. 

It's incredibly disjointed. You're grabbing text from difference resources, some of which are quoting older sources, some are primary, some are hearsay. The Bracken religion quote doesn't even have a date attached to it. And the quote you included from Tytos is contradicted by his own son.

“Five hundred years before the Andals. A thousand, if the True History is to be believed. Only no one knows when the Andals crossed the narrow sea. The True History says four thousand years have passed since then, but some maesters claim that it was only two. Past a certain point, all the dates grow hazy and confused, and the clarity of history becomes the fog of legend.”

There's just nothing compelling to think that Artos Arryn lived for hundreds of years or that the original was crowned in Oldtown. Artys was the first of his name. Maybe, just maybe, there was another Artys who was crowned in Oldtown, but we'd have heard of it. As far as we can tell the Arryns had never been to the vale pre-AC.

[AlaskanSandman]

6 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

So your argument is:

1) Ignore all the timeline debate that exists within maesters

2) Artys Arryn lived for hundreds of years

3) The falcon crown was made (Editors note: it was started to be worn) roughly 1000 years before AC

It not disjointed, unrelevant or a block of irrelavent text. 

It's incredibly disjointed. You're grabbing text from difference resources, some of which are quoting older sources, some are primary, some are hearsay. The Bracken religion quote doesn't even have a date attached to it. And the quote you included from Tytos is contradicted by his own son.

“Five hundred years before the Andals. A thousand, if the True History is to be believed. Only no one knows when the Andals crossed the narrow sea. The True History says four thousand years have passed since then, but some maesters claim that it was only two. Past a certain point, all the dates grow hazy and confused, and the clarity of history becomes the fog of legend.”

There's just nothing compelling to think that Artos Arryn lived for hundreds of years or that the original was crowned in Oldtown. Artys was the first of his name. Maybe, just maybe, there was another Artys who was crowned in Oldtown, but we'd have heard of it. As far as we can tell the Arryns had never been to the vale pre-AC.

This is a poor argument really.

Yes, that is my assumption, and those aren't editor notes on the crown lmfao thats straight from the books and literally the only things said about that crown. No counter info given lmao

The Maesters present one history while discountin another one referenced. This is that other referenced time line if you will. Believe it or not, it's all stated in the books.

Lmfao is all i have to the rest. Literally. Yes the quotes are from different sections of the books and by different people. We are only ever told one version of the time line in chronological order.

BUT, if you take the counter info, you can construct the altrenate time line introduced by GRRM him self. If you can't get that part, then there's no point discussing this further. I dont know how else to explain it. This is an altrenate time line, but backed by the books. Disagree all you want but dont act like this is some made up disjointed thing by me. 

Since he gives us info on alternate date, (in the case of the crown and old town, the onlyyyy dates), its fair to put it together and look at it all together rather than seperate. 

Since the OP is literally about this point, it's relevant. 

[Comrade Yurika]

Just about everything prior to the Andal invasion is of dubious nature. The big events obviously happened, but the timelines are probably way out of whack and lots of details have been garbled. The comments of Sam and Hoster Blackwood definitely clue us into serious some scholarly dispute over this stuff within the world (probably we'll get more info from this in Sam's studying in Winds).

2000 years ago is the most recent estimate for the Andal invasion, so it probably isn't any more recent than that. And stuff that happened well afterwards like the Rhoynar invasion should be pretty well established historically, but just about everything before then is up in the air. The Long Night might have been only 4000 years ago, for example.

[AlaskanSandman]

8 minutes ago, KuwabaraTheMan said:

Just about everything prior to the Andal invasion is of dubious nature. The big events obviously happened, but the timelines are probably way out of whack and lots of details have been garbled. The comments of Sam and Hoster Blackwood definitely clue us into serious some scholarly dispute over this stuff within the world (probably we'll get more info from this in Sam's studying in Winds).

2000 years ago is the most recent estimate for the Andal invasion, so it probably isn't any more recent than that. And stuff that happened well afterwards like the Rhoynar invasion should be pretty well established historically, but just about everything before then is up in the air. The Long Night might have been only 4000 years ago, for example.

Exactly. 

And as even just an excerise of curiostiy, im surprised more people haven't compile the counter evidence to try to establish what this other time line would be then.

[Universal Sword Donor]

4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

This is a poor argument really.

Yes, that is my assumption, and those aren't editor notes on the crown lmfao thats straight from the books and literally the only things said about that crown. No counter info given lmao

The Maesters present one history while discountin another one referenced. This is that other referenced time line if you will. Believe it or not, it's all stated in the books.

Lmfao is all i have to the rest. Literally. Yes the quotes are from different sections of the books and by different people. We are only ever told one version of the time line in chronological order.

BUT, if you take the counter info, you can construct the altrenate time line introduced by GRRM him self. If you can't get that part, then there's no point discussing this further. I dont know how else to explain it. This is an altrenate time line, but backed by the books. Disagree all you want but dont act like this is some made up disjointed thing by me. 

Since he gives us info on alternate date, (in the case of the crown and old town, the onlyyyy dates), its fair to put it together and look at it all together rather than seperate. 

Since the OP is literally about this point, it's relevant. 

I get it. I just dispute that it's a) accurate or  worth debating

[Free Northman Reborn]

A massive conspiracy to confuse people about the timeline? Yeah, sure.

More like the histories are fragmented and Maesters did the best they could to try and piece it together.

2000 years ago for the Andals, 6000 years ago for the Long Night, maybe 10,000 years ago for the arrival of the First Men, those seem the most likely answers, given the latest information we have. Very roughly speaking, of course.

[Back door hodor]

Most likely the timeline that the maesters assume is incorrect, we get so many conflicting dates for the same events that it is near impossible to determine the truth, for example the date of Nymeria's landing in dorne varies by three centuries between two sections of the world book.....

In the section of the world book called the ten thousand ships, we are told the the Valyrians destroyed the Rhyonar 1000 years ago, during the so called second spice war.

The dorne section of the world book states that house martel has ruled a United dorne for seven centuries, after Nymeria sent the six other kings of dorne to the Wall.

These dates do not correspond, even allowing time for wanderings and conquest. this is just one of many examples.

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, Back door hodor said:

Most likely the timeline that the maesters assume is incorrect, we get so many conflicting dates for the same events that it is near impossible to determine the truth, for example the date of Nymeria's landing in dorne varies by three centuries between two sections of the world book.....

In the section of the world book called the ten thousand ships, we are told the the Valyrians destroyed the Rhyonar 1000 years ago, during the so called second spice war.

The dorne section of the world book states that house martel has ruled a United dorne for seven centuries, after Nymeria sent the six other kings of dorne to the Wall.

These dates do not correspond, even allowing time for wanderings and conquest. this is just one of many examples.

I've never understood why peoples thoughts end there lol why not collect them all? and a couple hundred years is the usual discrenensy with these past dates. Take the Manderly banishment. One account of which ligns up with 1300 years ago. When Old Town is being taken by the Andals. Also, since Old Town was taken by the Andals 1300 years ago, i doubt they invaded 4000 years ago or later. 

 Make 2 different time lines based on these multiple accounts. 

If 4000 years of silence in the world between Ghis falling and the Andal invasion sounds odd and wrong, your probably right and thinking clearly.  It's probably B.S. This is a thought of some even given the excepted time line. 

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

A massive conspiracy to confuse people about the timeline? Yeah, sure.

More like the histories are fragmented and Maesters did the best they could to try and piece it together.

2000 years ago for the Andals, 6000 years ago for the Long Night, maybe 10,000 years ago for the arrival of the First Men, those seem the most likely answers, given the latest information we have. Very roughly speaking, of course.

While i agree that there are Maesters that question the truth, they are ostrazized by their companions. So the main Maester agenda seems to be about one thing and to think different results in being an out cast like Marwyn. 

And you really think there was nothing going on in the world for 4000 years? If the Andals invaded 2000 years ago then what the Blackwoods say still holds true. There feud with the Brackens began 500-1000 years prior to Andal Invasion 2000 years ago. Their fued dates back to the Age of Heroes. Thus 3000-2500 years ago, the Age of Heroes was going on. 

So how did the long night end 6000 years ago?

[AlaskanSandman]

3 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I get it. I just dispute that it's a) accurate or  worth debating

I would argue you still dont, and yet here you are, debating away   (im being glib)

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

While i agree that there are Maesters that question the truth, they are ostrazized by their companions. So the main Maester agenda seems to be about one thing and to think different results in being an out cast like Marwyn. 

And you really think there was nothing going on in the world for 4000 years? If the Andals invaded 2000 years ago then what the Blackwoods say still holds true. There feud with the Brackens began 500-1000 years prior to Andal Invasion 2000 years ago. Their fued dates back to the Age of Heroes. Thus 3000-2500 years ago, the Age of Heroes was going on. 

So how did the long night end 6000 years ago?

The Age of Heroes is a loose term encompassing the entire period from the signing of the Pact to the Andal Conquest. So your quote simply means the Bracken Blackwood feud started in the latter part of the Age of Heroes, and not close to its beginning.

Remember, the Blackwoods are originally a Northern House, and spent the early years after the Long Night in the Wolfswood. They only migrated South later.

[AlaskanSandman]

7 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The Age of Heroes is a loose term encompassing the entire period from the signing of the Pact to the Andal Conquest. So your quote simply means the Bracken Blackwood feud started in the latter part of the Age of Heroes, and not close to its beginning.

Remember, the Blackwoods are originally a Northern House, and spent the early years after the Long Night in the Wolfswood. They only migrated South later.

Ahhh, now we're getting closer.

Agreed with some ascertions and views here. Though following this through with what we have so far and what we know about them ruling Wolfswood prior to arriving in the South. We can at least assert that 3000 years ago is the latest that House Blackwood was banished South. 

As Brandon the Builder Built Winterfell and is the possible son of Brandon of the Bloody Blade. This leaves these two Brandon's as the two likely canidates that kicked out House Blackwood, or worked out some pact. This though helps pin point more events and the time line.

Brandon of the Bloody Blade was a son of Garth the Green, First King of the First Men that led them across the Arm of Dorne (And i think became the first Greenseerer). 

Now unless Brandon lived for a 1000 years (And i think he may have) this greatly reduces the time line. If he lived for 1000 years though, then the Age of Heroes was indeed longer than 1000 years and at least 2000-3000 years based on evidence. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

2 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Ahhh, now we're getting closer.

Agreed with some ascertions and views here. Though following this through with what we have so far and what we know about them ruling Wolfswood prior to arriving in the South. We can at least assert that 3000 years ago is the latest that House Blackwood was banished South. 

As Brandon the Builder Built Winterfell and is the possible son of Brandon of the Bloody Blade. This leaves these two Brandon's as the two likely canidates that kicked out House Blackwood, or worked out some pact. This though helps pin point more events and the time line.

Brandon of the Bloody Blade was a son of Garth the Green, First King of the First Men that led them across the Arm of Dorne (And i think became the first Greenseerer). 

Now unless Brandon lived for a 1000 years (And i think he may have) this greatly reduces the time line. If he lived for 1000 years though, then the Age of Heroes was indeed longer than 1000 years and at least 2000-3000 years based on evidence. 

No, that is an unfounded conclusion.

We don't know when the Blackwoods were exiled, and we don't know how long they lived in the Riverlands before the Bracken feud started.

And there is no reason to believe that Brandon the Builder lived anywhere close to that time. It could have been a thousand years after his time, for all we know.

[AlaskanSandman]

8 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

No, that is an unfounded conclusion.

We don't know when the Blackwoods were exiled, and we don't know how long they lived in the Riverlands before the Bracken feud started.

And there is no reason to believe that Brandon the Builder lived anywhere close to that time. It could have been a thousand years after his time, for all we know.

Well this just sounds an unfounded repute and reaching.

We know the Blackwoods were exiled no sooner than 3000 years ago. 
We know that Brandon the Builder Built Winterfell and is the First Known Stark as the House originator. 

As the person who arrived and built a castle on the lands once owned by House Blackwood. Either Brandon the Builder ousted them, or his father. There is no possible Stark prior that could have done it. And House Blackwood had to have been exiled by then and not after as Brandon lived up till the Walls creation. 

Edit- Sure House Blackwood could have been in the Riverlands for a little while before their fued, but thats the best chance to stretch this time line. Not the ousting.