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Can Euron warg Aeron?


lAPPYc

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So, there is a possibility that Euron is teaching Aeron skinchanging by employing the method of sensory deprivation during his enslavement following the Kingsmoot. There are theories that the Bloodraven might be in cahoots with Euron. The immediate application of this ability of Aeron is thought to be in the battle of blood, where Aeron will be a supernatural shield that will stop the surfacing Krakens from attacking Silence/Ironborn Ships.

But what about later? Right now Aeron is a frightened, helpless thing. What when he realizes his power? We know how much Aeron hates Euron. Euron knows how much Aeron hates Euron. It won't take a genius to figure out that one day Aeron might snap.

We see this kind of behavior elsewhere by Euron, when he gives the dragonhorne to Victarion. The trick there is easy to speculate upon: The horne doesn't work, Euron wants Vic dead, and wants the Iron Fleet to bring Dany back.

So, what about Aeron? Well, we know warging works both ways. If Euron manages to provoke Aeron into warg him, might he be able to warg him back, turning the tables?

There is a further possibility to speculate upon. The First Men came from outside of Westeros, and then greenseers started popping in them; a faction until now limited to the Children of the Forest (I don't think giants had them). Were these just priests that got such powers, simply by worshipping the Old Gods? Or did some even get them by being taught, or via the two-way connection? Is that why Euron has a Faceless Man as a caretaker of an archmaester, so he could break into the vaults to find some ritualistic proof or further secrets like how to manipulate the wind/shatter land, in some ancient tome? (Of course, this will mean that Bloodraven isn't telling him all this, because otherwise he wouldn't have to consult a book. But I never liked the Bloodraven theory anyway). Will he get Aeron's powers after warging him? Or will he simply continue on through the Damphair's body?

Maybe the Horne with Victarion works to bind the dragons as well, and Euron is just planning to warg into dragons and wresting control of them from his brother. Euron is a terrible battle commander, he is most likely going to lose the war, even if he wins the Battle of Blood. Maybe this power is what he uses to make a comeback, this time with even more supernatural forces (*cough* weights *cough**cough* Others) It's like what happened to Stannis and the Starks; brought to the brink of defeat and extinction, and now they are going to own it like nothing you've seen before.

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There are way too many unconfirmed theories layered on top of each other here, and it is too convoluted to be a satisfying story - if Euron is this super powerful guy with all these magicians and priests working for him, why does he need Damphair's body when Damphair hasn't been shown to be anything other than a nut?  At least we've seen Melisandre and Moqorro do stuff.  Bloodraven and Euron's connection has only been lightly suggested and at that if I recall correctly it was a suggestion of Euron and the 3EC who may not even be Bloodraven.  As for skinchanging going both ways, I'm not sure what you mean by that - Hodor hasn't been entering Bran and neither has summer, so unless this is something from TWOIAF (which I refuse to read) then I am not sure about it.  Where is the whole Euron has a FM in the citadel thing from?  Is it because a FM takes Pate in the prolouge of AFFC and because Euron is hinted at having hired a FM?  A leap like that is a fine on it's own, but not amongst 10 other leaps.

Sorry to be a downer @lAPPYc, I did enjoy reading your post, but I just can't stretch the text that far yet.  Just me. Hopefully some others have more helpful comments - sorry!

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If he is a failed student of Bloodraven, who can skinchange, I don't think Aeron's mind would be able to mount much of an offence against that of the Crow's Eye.

If Euron cannot personally skinchange other beings, perhaps a good way to control the kraken might be through the water loving Farwynds, who apparently enter the minds of spotted whales and seals.

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6 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Euron is not and has not ever been a skinchanger. Period. End of story. Euron's magic comes from the shade of the evening that he took off of the warlocks that he captured. So no, he will not skinchange Aeron 

I never said that Euron is a skinchanger, I said that the joining works both ways. Varamyr had Orell in his mind/or in the Eagel's mind. That same way, if Euron can get/provoke Aeron to warg him, he might get some control over Aeron.

7 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

if Euron is this super powerful guy with all these magicians and priests working for him,

But magic in ASoIaF is not easy. They have to use a different tool for ever different tasks. If Aeron has skinchanging abilities, Euron will want to use him. Maybe that's why he is keeping this potential source of rebellion alive in the dark (Bran is in the dark. Arya warged into the cat when she was blind. Basically, the theory is that sight deprivation drives the mind onto other senses, like ability to skinchange, in Aeron's case)

7 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

As for skinchanging going both ways, I'm not sure what you mean by that

Varamyr could still hear Orell in the Eagel's mind, talking about how much he hated Jon Snow. So Euron could gain into Aeron's mind. Hodor doesn't fight Bran all that much, and Bran is able to take over his body. Maybe this time the warged gets the upper hand over the one who is doing the warging, because Aeron's a nut!

7 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Where is the whole Euron has a FM in the citadel thing from?  Is it because a FM takes Pate in the prolouge of AFFC and because Euron is hinted at having hired a FM?

And with Euron's obsession with dragons, and the book that is rumored to be hidden in the vaults of the citadel named the death of dragons. But I do not need this to be true for Euron to overpower Aeron in his own mind, it seems as though he is already training Aeron in skinchinging. IMO, Euron is a bad war commander, and if he harbors such a dangerous prisoner with no plans for him, his reign of terror, in spite of winning the battle of blood, will be frustratingly short.

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On 2/26/2018 at 8:02 PM, lAPPYc said:

So, there is a possibility that Euron is teaching Aeron skinchanging by employing the method of sensory deprivation during his enslavement following the Kingsmoot.

What?

ETA: Sorry, posted too soon, before parsing the entire thing.

Quote

There are theories that the Bloodraven might be in cahoots with Euron.

What?

Quote

 The immediate application of this ability of Aeron is thought to be in the battle of blood, where Aeron will be a supernatural shield that will stop the surfacing Krakens from attacking Silence/Ironborn Ships.

What?!

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2 hours ago, E.S. Dinah said:

Euron is forcing visions into his brother's mind.  The potion just made Aerion susceptible to subliminal suggestions.  It's not skinchanging.

2 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

What?

ETA: Sorry, posted too soon, before parsing the entire thing.

What?

What?!

All questions will be answered, on google. Because all these theories will be too long to post here. Instead, let me give you a TL;DR of them:

Skinchanging: Bloodraven: lives in a cave, minimum light, trains bran in warging. Arya: goes blind, wargs the cat. Conclusion: sensory deprivation makes the mind go to other senses, like skinchanging. Hypothesis: Greenseers as priests of First Men/COTF, and priests can talk to gods through praying, gods are basically a collective conscience; you might know the term weirnet. Argument: George has used this idea of collective consciousness as gods in his prior books, for ex. A song for Lya, from which the names Robb and Lyanna are also taken. The theory is that the priests of the Undying(Not exactly priests, but still use the collective consciousness to speak with Dany), and the septons, and Damphair can also talk to god, that is pray, that is why Euron is collecting priests, and why he keeps them in the dark, and basically why he is keeping Aeron alive, who is a very dangerous figure on the Iron Islands.

Battle of Blood: Aeron sees scores of dead pigs. He sees far to fewer no. of ships with Euron for the upcoming battle. Theory is that Euron has stored the pig blood in the belly of a ship like Tyrion once did with Wildfire. When the Redwyn fleet descends upon him, he will break that ship apart and let the blood spill, bringing krakens and whatnots to the surface, who will then proceed tearing ships apart. The small no. of ships is to draw the Redwyns and Hightowers in, and Aeron(Skinchanger), and maybe the other priests, will be like supernatural shields against the Krakens, safeguarding Euron's ships.

Bloodraven: I don't remember much of this, but it's got to do with Euron's new sigil, the eye, supported by crows. The theory is that bloodraven/3eyedcrow is helping Euron to make sure Dany actually comes to Westeros.

You can find a bigger explanation on Preston Jacob's video on YouTube.

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9 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Oh, so that's a PJ theory! Why didn't you say so right away!

This is the second time I've read such a comment regarding a PJ theory. Are they considered stupid? I always find them as insightful as I find them stretching it. But then, I've only watched a few.

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Spoiler

I think the key thing is that Euron is collecting holy men, sorcerers and wizards because holy blood is powerful when performing bloodmagic, or so he thinks.  Mirri Maaz Duur is also sacrificed and Dany sees a dragon bursting from her brow in the HoU, which would seem to support that notion.  Aeron is both a holy man and royal blood, do double the potency.  Whatever Euron is doing lashing Aeron and his pregnant salt wife the prow of the Silence; it doesn't seem like he intends for them to survive.  The cost to Dany for Mirri's ritual was her unborn son; so it seems that Euron is making the same sacrifice, but orders of magnitude greater with the number of sacrifices he is making.

Euron is attempting some great magic that he thinks will transform him into a godlike being - the first storm and the last.

It might also fit with the legend of AA forging the sword in water, or a bloody sea, a parallel to Drogo's bloody bath.  

As for skinchanging; I have often wondered if Euron himself isn't compromised in this way; in that something has been riding him since he was a boy and fell from the cliffs to the sea.  Perhaps this accounts for his reputation for being maddest of the all.  We get some hint of that with Thistle in the prologue of DwD when Varaymr attempts to steal her body and to a lesser degree with Bran/Hodor.

Aeron seems to think that the storm god is present in Euron at the Kingsmoot and Euron's speech about being the godliest man might be the voice of this other presence:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - The Iron Captain

"We shall have no king but from the kingsmoot." The Damphair stood. "No godless man—"

"—may sit the Seastone Chair, aye." Euron glanced about the tent. "As it happens I have oft sat upon the Seastone Chair of late. It raises no objections." His smiling eye was glittering. "Who knows more of gods than I? Horse gods and fire gods, gods made of gold with gemstone eyes, gods carved of cedar wood, gods chiseled into mountains, gods of empty air . . . I know them all. I have seen their peoples garland them with flowers, and shed the blood of goats and bulls and children in their names. And I have heard the prayers, in half a hundred tongues. Cure my withered leg, make the maiden love me, grant me a healthy son. Save me, succor me, make me wealthy . . . protect me! Protect me from mine enemies, protect me from the darkness, protect me from the crabs inside my belly, from the horselords, from the slavers, from the sellswords at my door. Protect me from the Silence." He laughed. "Godless? Why, Aeron, I am the godliest man ever to raise sail! You serve one god, Damphair, but I have served ten thousand. From Ib to Asshai, when men see my sails, they pray."

The priest raised a bony finger. "They pray to trees and golden idols and goat-headed abominations. False gods . . ."

"Just so," said Euron, "and for that sin I kill them all. I spill their blood upon the sea and sow their screaming women with my seed. Their little gods cannot stop me, so plainly they are false gods. I am more devout than even you, Aeron. Perhaps it should be you who kneels to me for blessing."

Euron's personal sigil has bugged me for years.  LOL.  The 'blood eye' used to be like a cat's eye in the wiki until recently changed.  Two crows and a blood eye or three eyes?  The blood eye is the third eye?  I'm not sure this points to Bloodraven though but something that is trapped or imprisoned and seeking to be reborn perhaps.  

I'm not sure we're talking about an actual bloody eye or a missing eye (the dark eye) but perhaps something else, a blood moon:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

Only the brightest stars were visible, all to the west. A dull red glow lit the sky to the northeast, the color of a blood bruise. Tyrion had never seen a bigger moon. Monstrous, swollen, it looked as if it had swallowed the sun and woken with a fever. Its twin, floating on the sea beyond the ship, shimmered red with every wave. "What hour is this?" he asked Moqorro. "That cannot be sunrise unless the east has moved. Why is the sky red?"

 

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19 minutes ago, lAPPYc said:

This is the second time I've read such a comment regarding a PJ theory. Are they considered stupid?

In a word, yes. Every now and then, somebody will bring a fresh Preston here to be examined and dissected, and the quality of the argument, the treatment of evidence, etc., will be invariably found simply awful. Outright making up stuff that supports his theory, and outright hand wave away everything that doesn't. Every single time.

Now what's right is right, but he ain't been right yet.

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7 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

I never said that Euron is a skinchanger, I said that the joining works both ways. Varamyr had Orell in his mind/or in the Eagel's mind. That same way, if Euron can get/provoke Aeron to warg him, he might get some control over Aeron.

Aeron is not a skinchanger either. It is familial and not something that can be brought out in just anyone 

 

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1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Aeron is not a skinchanger either. It is familial and not something that can be brought out in just anyone 

Not exactly true. As I said in the OP, the First Men were taught greenseeing by the children of the forest. I'm reluctant to consider that it only happened through interbreeding. There certainly sends to be some way. And I'm not saying anyone, but only priests or ardent followers, and descendants.

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25 minutes ago, lAPPYc said:

 

Not exactly true. As I said in the OP, the First Men were taught greenseeing by the children of the forest. I'm reluctant to consider that it only happened through interbreeding. There certainly sends to be some way. And I'm not saying anyone, but only priests or ardent followers, and descendants.

It is true, as described by bloodraven. It isn't ONLY via bloodline though. It seems you have to be descended from people that keeps the old gods as well. We see wildlings, starks and bloodraven as skinchangers. That is all. I am not saying the euron won't be able to control aeron via the shade of the evening, but it will not be skinchanging 

 

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  • 1 month later...
On 2/26/2018 at 2:02 PM, lAPPYc said:

So, there is a possibility that Euron is teaching Aeron skinchanging by employing the method of sensory deprivation during his enslavement following the Kingsmoot. There are theories that the Bloodraven might be in cahoots with Euron. The immediate application of this ability of Aeron is thought to be in the battle of blood, where Aeron will be a supernatural shield that will stop the surfacing Krakens from attacking Silence/Ironborn Ships.

But what about later? Right now Aeron is a frightened, helpless thing. What when he realizes his power? We know how much Aeron hates Euron. Euron knows how much Aeron hates Euron. It won't take a genius to figure out that one day Aeron might snap.

We see this kind of behavior elsewhere by Euron, when he gives the dragonhorne to Victarion. The trick there is easy to speculate upon: The horne doesn't work, Euron wants Vic dead, and wants the Iron Fleet to bring Dany back.

So, what about Aeron? Well, we know warging works both ways. If Euron manages to provoke Aeron into warg him, might he be able to warg him back, turning the tables?

There is a further possibility to speculate upon. The First Men came from outside of Westeros, and then greenseers started popping in them; a faction until now limited to the Children of the Forest (I don't think giants had them). Were these just priests that got such powers, simply by worshipping the Old Gods? Or did some even get them by being taught, or via the two-way connection? Is that why Euron has a Faceless Man as a caretaker of an archmaester, so he could break into the vaults to find some ritualistic proof or further secrets like how to manipulate the wind/shatter land, in some ancient tome? (Of course, this will mean that Bloodraven isn't telling him all this, because otherwise he wouldn't have to consult a book. But I never liked the Bloodraven theory anyway). Will he get Aeron's powers after warging him? Or will he simply continue on through the Damphair's body?

Maybe the Horne with Victarion works to bind the dragons as well, and Euron is just planning to warg into dragons and wresting control of them from his brother. Euron is a terrible battle commander, he is most likely going to lose the war, even if he wins the Battle of Blood. Maybe this power is what he uses to make a comeback, this time with even more supernatural forces (*cough* weights *cough**cough* Others) It's like what happened to Stannis and the Starks; brought to the brink of defeat and extinction, and now they are going to own it like nothing you've seen before.

He's not a First Man. Gotta have that to warg.

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Warging refers purely to skinchanging wolves. He's likely getting in Aeron to some degree in that chapter, but not like Bran and Hodor. He's not as naturally powerful as Bran and Aeron is not as feeble as Hodor.

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