Jamie's second chance.

[AlaskanSandman]

How could Jamie have done it all differently? 

How could he have save Aerys II Targaryen and Rhaegar's wife and children, given the snakes (Varys, Pycell) he was working against, as his father was preparing to breach the city. 

What could he have done or what should he have done?

Should have have knocked out Aerys II and dragged him out via the secret passages?

Formed a garrison to get them out? 

Actually trust Varys who was also warning against opening the city gates to Tywin?

Not my usual post but im curious alternately what Jamie could have done different. 

 

Edit- Or should he have fought his father. Fortified the city and stand his ground like lil Tyrion did?

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

I think Jaime did the right thing.

I agree with Robert - someone had to kill Aerys. Added to that, Jaime knew that Aerys was planning to nuke Kings Landing, and he was also aware of just how insane Aerys was. The White Bull or Jonothor Darry's approach, which was to ignore the fact that they were serving a monster and protect him anyway, coz vows, is on the face of it more honourable, but in reality just plain wrong.

He could have tried to save Rhaegar's family, but I don't think he knew what Tywin had planned for them. Irrespective, their deaths aren't on him. Aerys's death is on him, and I think it was 100% justified. 

 

[newbieone]

Could have knocked him out, yeah, but that would have been a tough risk to take.

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 2/27/2018 at 1:14 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

How could Jamie have done it all differently? 

How could he have save Aerys II Targaryen and Rhaegar's wife and children, given the snakes (Varys, Pycell) he was working against, as his father was preparing to breach the city. 

What could he have done or what should he have done?

Should have have knocked out Aerys II and dragged him out via the secret passages?

Formed a garrison to get them out? 

Actually trust Varys who was also warning against opening the city gates to Tywin?

Not my usual post but im curious alternately what Jamie could have done different. 

 

Edit- Or should he have fought his father. Fortified the city and stand his ground like lil Tyrion did?

There is nothing he could have done differently. He went from aspiring hero, to pawn in the game, to an oathbreaker for nearly two decades, and that is his story now. His (partial) redemption is why he is an interesting character  

[John Suburbs]

As long as the MK lived, there was a chance that his order to light the wildfire could get out. The big error, IMO, is when Crakehall and Westerling burst in to see Jaime's bloody sword and the MK dying, they should have hustled him out of there tout de suite. Then they could have made up some story about Jaime being mortally wounded, attested to by Maester Pycelle who is giving him round-the-clock care, and sorry his condition is too critical to allow any visitors, and the stain of kingslaying would never have fallen on him. I've always wondered if Tywin gave Crake and West and earful after the battle, but, as they say, hindsight is 20/20.

[Geddus]

49 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

As long as the MK lived, there was a chance that his order to light the wildfire could get out.

How? There was no one else in the throne room. The wildfire plan had already been stopped by Rossart's death, there was no need to kill Aerys too at that point: Jaime did it because he wanted to, which is perfectly understandable but doesn't make it some kind of heroic gesture.

 

On 1/3/2018 at 4:46 PM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

The White Bull or Jonothor Darry's approach, which was to ignore the fact that they were serving a monster and protect him anyway

It had been Jaime's approach too until the very end, when Aerys ordered him to kill Tywin.

[300 H&H Magnum]

On 2/27/2018 at 4:14 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

Should have have knocked out Aerys II and dragged him out via the secret passages?

He swore an oath to defend the king.  This is what he should have done.  Stop the wildfire, obviously, because allowing that plan to continue is not serving the interest of the king.  If an old man like Barristan can sneak his king out of Duskendale, a fit young man like Jaime could have done the same. 

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, Geddus said:

How? There was no one else in the throne room. The wildfire plan had already been stopped by Rossart's death, there was no need to kill Aerys too at that point: Jaime did it because he wanted to, which is perfectly understandable but doesn't make it some kind of heroic gesture.

Garigus and Belis were still alive. Jaime would have to sequester the MK for hours, probably binding and gagging him as well, and either stand guard and slay anyone who tries to see the king or go off hunting for any and all wisdoms who could set the wildfire off. Either way, there is a chance that Aerys could get the order out. It's a small chance, but a chance nonetheless. The only sure way to prevent the deaths of half a million people is to silence the one person on the planet who could give the order.

Was it a heroic gesture? That's a judgement call.

One thing is certain: if Jaime hadn't been sitting on the IT by the time Ned arrived, he wouldn't be tainted as a kingslayer today.

[Geddus]

22 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Garigus and Belis were still alive. Jaime would have to sequester the MK for hours, probably binding and gagging him as well, and either stand guard and slay anyone who tries to see the king or go off hunting for any and all wisdoms who could set the wildfire off. Either way, there is a chance that Aerys could get the order out. It's a small chance, but a chance nonetheless. The only sure way to prevent the deaths of half a million people is to silence the one person on the planet who could give the order.

Was it a heroic gesture? That's a judgement call.

One thing is certain: if Jaime hadn't been sitting on the IT by the time Ned arrived, he wouldn't be tainted as a kingslayer today.

Hours? A minute at most: Tywin's bannermen entered the throne room immediately after Jaime had killed Aerys.

I agree that him sitting on the throne considerably worsened his image but I think he would still be called that. Unless he told the truth, probably, but he was too proud for that.

[Light a wight tonight]

We learn from Cersei that Jaime acts first and thinks later. He was acting in character by killing Aerys. What he could have done or should have done is very different from what he would have done, (and did).

I need to point out that Jaime was not aware of the secret passages until Tywin's death, many years after this event. 

[John Suburbs]

3 hours ago, Geddus said:

Hours? A minute at most: Tywin's bannermen entered the throne room immediately after Jaime had killed Aerys.

I agree that him sitting on the throne considerably worsened his image but I think he would still be called that. Unless he told the truth, probably, but he was too proud for that.

But Jaime slew the MK before West and Crake even arrived. At the moment he made his decision, he had no idea what was going to happen or who would be the first to arrive. The only sure way to keep the wildfire from being lit was to silence the king, permanently.

[Geddus]

Again, how would the king give the order since the only other person there was Jaime? And he knew his father was taking the city and his men would be there soon. I mean, they were right outside the door. It's not like he thought he was facing a days long siege.

Also, he hunted down the other pyromancers during the following days, without telling anyone about the wildfire so he wasn't afraid they would act on their own. Like with Aerys, he killed them because he wanted to (I think they deserved it, for what it's worth).

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

On 3/4/2018 at 10:18 PM, Geddus said:

It had been Jaime's approach too until the very end, when Aerys ordered him to kill Tywin.

Good point, but he was just as much motivated by Aerys's wish to burn Kings Landing. 

[talvikorppi]

He could've, he should've, he didn't. That is his story, the one GRRM wants to tell.

[talvikorppi]

On 3/4/2018 at 11:16 PM, John Suburbs said:

As long as the MK lived, there was a chance that his order to light the wildfire could get out. The big error, IMO, is when Crakehall and Westerling burst in to see Jaime's bloody sword and the MK dying, they should have hustled him out of there tout de suite. Then they could have made up some story about Jaime being mortally wounded, attested to by Maester Pycelle who is giving him round-the-clock care, and sorry his condition is too critical to allow any visitors, and the stain of kingslaying would never have fallen on him. I've always wondered if Tywin gave Crake and West and earful after the battle, but, as they say, hindsight is 20/20.

And do you think Jaime would have been happy about being mollycoddled like that? Not on your nelly!

Jaime is actually proud of having killed Aerys, the madman. But everybody else - even the ones who actually wanted Aerys dead - are hypocritically horrified that he did the deed. Ho-hum, Jaime then decided to be a total shit, because that's how everybody were going to think anyway. He was only 17, people do stupid things at that age.

[Lady bonehead]

He should have made a decision before he did.  If he'd been cleverer, he could have killed Aerys in a way that made it look like the act of an anonymous assassin.  He waited because he wanted to do the honorable thing and be true to his vows.  He also could have made sure that Elia and the kids were absolutely safe, but he didn't, because he thought they were safe enough where they were.  And he's tortured himself ever since then for making the wrong decisions when he was 17.  That's the story.    

[Lord Lannister]

Jaime's made a lot of questionable decisions in his life, but killing Aerys wasn't one of them. I always found it hypocrisy of the first order that the same people who rebelled against the Mad King so condemned Jaime for killing him.

[Geddus]

There's nothing hypocrytical about that: Jaime is perceived as having acted on his father's orders, or at least on his behalf, that's why he's judged.

After all, up until Tywin's men were sacking the city Jaime remained as faithful a Kingsguard as any, didn't he?

[Leo of House Cartel]

On 27/02/2018 at 9:14 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

How could Jamie have done it all differently? 

How could he have save Aerys II Targaryen and Rhaegar's wife and children, given the snakes (Varys, Pycell) he was working against, as his father was preparing to breach the city. 

What could he have done or what should he have done?

Should have have knocked out Aerys II and dragged him out via the secret passages?

Formed a garrison to get them out? 

Actually trust Varys who was also warning against opening the city gates to Tywin?

Not my usual post but im curious alternately what Jamie could have done different. 

 

Edit- Or should he have fought his father. Fortified the city and stand his ground like lil Tyrion did?

An interesting question as usual, Sandman.

While I can't be sure, I think a plan like this could be sound enough.

Choke Rossart to death and disable Aerys - hiding him somewhere near the throne room. Send the Gold Cloaks to fetch Varys and then the Pyromancers (tell them Aerys personally requested their presence).

Alert Varys of the Wildfyre plan (if he shows up), announce the intention to declare Viserys or Aegon king. Have Varys take Rossart's and the King's body to the Tower of The Hand, murder The Mad King and blame it on Rossart, then throw Rossart from the tower and making it look like a suicide, tell the public "he was a Baratheon spy!"

When the Pyromancers arrive, have them arrested and questioned as to the whereabouts of the Wildfyre. When Lord Tywin arrives, send a detatchment of Gold Cloaks to meet him and tell him the King is dead but Jaime of the King's Guard declares Aegon or Viserys King. Tywin can be offered position of Hand, hopefully averting the Sack of KL.

 

[John Suburbs]

13 hours ago, talvikorppi said:

And do you think Jaime would have been happy about being mollycoddled like that? Not on your nelly!

Jaime is actually proud of having killed Aerys, the madman. But everybody else - even the ones who actually wanted Aerys dead - are hypocritically horrified that he did the deed. Ho-hum, Jaime then decided to be a total shit, because that's how everybody were going to think anyway. He was only 17, people do stupid things at that age.

Meh, I think that is a misread. Mayhaps at the time he thought he would be honored as the big hero, but once everybody started calling him kingslayer he was pretty annoyed -- at least, he was by the time we read his POVs in Storm. "Aerys, why does it always come back to Aerys?" and "Loved by one for a kindness I never did, and reviled by so many for my finest act."

I wouldn't call it mollycoddling, more like "Come Lord Jaime, you're lord father needs to speak to you right away." If he is annoyed by that after the fact, so what? At least his honor is still intact.

But yes, I agree, it was a stupid thing to do, and if he had been a little older and a little more seasoned when it all went down he probably would have made a different choice.