Chances Stannis tries to legitimize Roberts bastards?

[Lord Vance II]

It seems the consensus is there's at least a chance Selyse and Shireen Baratheon will die during the WoW, possibly before Stannis (I'm pulling for him, but it doesn't look good). If they die, House Baratheon is over. If Stannis outlives Selyse and Shireen, do you think there's any chance Stannis tries to pull an Aegon IV (kind of) and mass-legitimize Robert's bastards?

Stannis is obviously embarrassed by the results of his brothers indiscretion, but he has shown he at least half-way cares about them. Sure, he tried to kill Edric, but that was out of desperation with Milissandre in his ear. He and Jon Arryn made sure Gendry was taken care of, and likely saw to the safety of more of them in KL. I don't know how much he knows about Robert's other surviving bastards, but I'd bet he knows about Mya since she was the first. I think he would prefer the unappetizing idea of legitimizing Roberts bastards than the Baratheon name dying forever. 

I'm not saying it would work. He's not the king of much or many, so a declaration from him wouldn't carry much weight. Plus the only real precedent is a king mass-legitimizing his own bastards, not his brothers. It might carry a little more weight if he actually named them instead of just a blanked statement. But a legitimized Edric Storm could become an issue, and the BwB would be over the moon to discover their blacksmith was the son of King Robert. 

Also, what bigger final "fuck you" could he give to the realm that rejected his rightful claim? Aegon IV's great bastards caused massive problems and Stannis knows that. If the legitimization even halfway worked, he would die knowing he had sowed the seeds of chaos for whoever sat the throne he believed was his. 

Of course, there's the chance Selyse and Shireen die but Stannis still has time to make a new Baratheon, or things like a family name become inmateriel once the Battle for the Dawn begins, or they all survive (haha). But if Stannis does go down, I like the idea of him leaving the realm a parting gift. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

I don't see it as likely, as Stannis is still capable of fathering children, so would probably not want to create problems for any future heirs.

Also, I don't think it would be a very kind thing to do (not that Stannis would really care about that), as all he'd be doing is putting those children in Cersei's crosshairs, even more so than they are already. 

He doesn't know for certain of many of Roberts bastards does he? He knows about Gendry, and obviously Edric. He knew about Barra before she was killed. But any others? He doesn't mention knowledge of any more, and he probably would have mentioned them after Davos spirited Edric away. 

[Rufus Snow]

In short, no. 'Stannis is iron, he'll break before he bends', we are told.

Also consider this: if he did legitimize Bobby's Bastard Brood, he'd put himself out of the succession and therefore would no longer be the rightful King and have had no right to legitimize them....

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

6 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Also consider this: if he did legitimize Bobby's Bastard Brood, he'd put himself out of the succession and therefore would no longer be the rightful King and have had no right to legitimize them....

Good point, I hadn't thought of that at all. 

In fairness, it could be a kick-ass death-bed move, but given few people regard his claim as legitimate, any decrees he made as "king" could be ignored unless it suited people not to. 

[Stormking902]

I think Stannis writes a will on his death bed making Edric legit and granting him SE and all of its lands and titles. I doubt Mya does though cause Stannis doesnt care for her at all simply because he doesnt kno her. 

[Lord Vance II]

44 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I don't think it would be a very kind thing to do (not that Stannis would really care about that), as all he'd be doing is putting those children in Cersei's crosshairs, even more so than they are already. 

He doesn't know for certain of many of Roberts bastards does he? He knows about Gendry, and obviously Edric. He knew about Barra before she was killed. But any others? He doesn't mention knowledge of any more, and he probably would have mentioned them after Davos spirited Edric away. 

Being the thorough man he is, I doubt he stopped at finding only a few if he knew there were more. I don't think we know exactly how many Cersei offed, probably several at least. If he knows about Mya, he knows she's in relative safety at the Eyrie. I don't know if he knows where Edric is, but he's safe from Cersei as well. He may not have mentioned the others after the Edric fiasco because he knew they were out of his grasp. I suppose he doesn't know squat about Gendry's whereabouts, but I doubt he'd hold up for one bastard if he knew others would be relatively safe. 

25 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Also consider this: if he did legitimize Bobby's Bastard Brood, he'd put himself out of the succession and therefore would no longer be the rightful King and have had no right to legitimize them....

True. But I feel like if he did to this, anyone willing to accept it would overlook that fact for one reason or another. Again, I don't expect many to listen if he tried. Honestly, for me this would be a consolation prize if/when my favorite throne candidate dies. Fun idea more than anything. 

[Vaedys Targaryen]

Stannis is still capable of fathering children. He seems to be open-minded about Shireen becoming queen, but if she dies before then, he can just make another children.

The question is about Selyse; she isn't a particularily attractive woman and seeing her personality from other POVs, she's also rather unbearable to be around. Stannis apparently only bedded her twice a year and wasn't particularily fond of her.

I think making another child would be difficult for him and he would probably need a new wife. Melisandre told Davos that she and Stannis "made a son" from the shadow and it had to be "born" from her womb, which really implies that she and Stannis had sex. So Stannis isn't incapable of having sex either. It could just be Selyse.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

56 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

Being the thorough man he is, I doubt he stopped at finding only a few if he knew there were more. I don't think we know exactly how many Cersei offed, probably several at least.

I don't know about that. We hear about Stannis knowing about Gendry and Barra, but no others, and we hear about the murder of Barra, and know about their pursuit of Gendry, but nothing more. Tyrion doesn't mention any other murders, neither does Varys (but Varys withholding information wouldn't be the most shocking of developments of course. 

It might be that Cersei only knows of the bastards that Jon and Stannis, or Ned, discovered, because she was keeping a close eye on them while they were conducting their investigations. Or it could be that those are the only known bastards in Kings Landing.

We know that Cersei knows about Myra, as Robert suggested bringing her to court. That makes it more likely that Stannis knew about her, but we're not certain.  

[Kandrax]

As far as Stannis know Edric is missing, while Gendry is maybe dead, so it wouldn't be much of use to legitimize them.

[Bernie Mac]

Stannis is not going to legitimise bastards that were never acknowledged by his brother, that is just not in his style or the nature of Westeros or even GRRM's writing, making a pauper the King of the realm. 

He could make Edric his heir, the only bastard that Robert acknowledged of his own but I'm sure, as a stickler for what is right, Stannis would sooner see it go to another Baratheon. We have no idea if Steffon was an only child, but considering his father lived for another 15 years after Steffon was born it seems unlikely they he was. 

[Black Dragons]

No way because it will make his claim weak as King, but  IF his on death bed and with his heir and daughter is dead, MAYBE to  screw with Cersi and her children claims. Yeah I can see that happening LOL

[Ckram]

Maybe in a will (as Robb did), but only for Edric Storm (the only acknowledged one), as it seems to me that he doesn't know any Robert's bastards besides Edric and those living in King's Landing.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

21 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

We have no idea if Steffon was an only child, but considering his father lived for another 15 years after Steffon was born it seems unlikely they he was.

No brothers or sisters of Steffon are mentioned. Stannis mentions a great uncle as castellan of Storms End I think, but he's probably dead and we don't know of any issue that I'm aware of. 

[Nevets]

If he is still alive, he will assume that he can produce more heirs, by remarriage if necessary.  And I doubt that he is concerned about the possibility of dying without issue.  I don't think he really cares who gets the crown if he doesn't (and the only way he doesn't is if he dies; he'll fight to the end). 

The only Robert bastard that I can imagine being legitimized, by anybody, is Edric Storm.  Having been acknowledged by Robert, and raised in Renly's household, he is essentially a known quantity.  The others are nobodies, and likely to stay that way (apologies to Gendry fans).

Varys tells Ned he knows of eight bastards, and we know of at least six of those: Gendry, Mya Stone, Edric Storm, Barra, and the two killed by Cersei in Lannisport.  He may or may not know of Bella in Stoney Sept.  I doubt Cersei knows of any that Varys doesn't, so I doubt she has done much in the bastard-culling department.

[Darion Storm]

I might be able to see him doing it on his deathbed, if he had no heir of his own body.

But certainly not before that point, I expect any legitimised bastard of Robert would have a better claim than any trueborn son of Stannis in most people’s eyes.

[newbieone]

Legitimized bastard sons don't necessarily come before their legitimately born uncles, especially baseborn bastards vs uncles born of highborn ladies. They probably should come first, but it's not a given. Also a crowned king's rights would stand, especially legitimately acquired before the coronation, so his own legitimization of his elder brother's sons shouldn't require his own deposition. However, inheritance could need to be changed.

In mediaeval Europe a determination that someone else had better rights than the reigning ruler didn't really need to deposition, more like inheritance adjustment, with the better heir or his heirs coming before the incumbent's normal heirs.

So Stannis legitimizing Edric or Gendry likely means Edric or Gendry replacing Stannis's future sons, but not necessarily and certainly not automatically (automatic succession would probably still go to Stannis's future sons, it would only be extremely disputable and probably disputed). Such problems led to Great Councils back in Targ times.

Precedents: In the Hundred Years War Henry V ended up becoming the heir of France but not the King of France — the incumbent was not deposed, only his son disinherited; Henry V's son Henry VI only became King of France when Charles VI died (the spared incumbent). Before the War of the Roses Richard of York ended up becoming the heir of Henry VI when Parliament decided his claim was better than Henry VI's, but Henry VI was not initially deposed, only his son disinherited, even though Henry VI was much younger than his new heir. This is even though abdication or deposition was not regarded as absolutely impossible, especially in England (at least two precedents). Before, Stephen of Blois would remain king with Henry Plantagenet as his heir rather than Stephen being deposed (Stephen actually had an elder brother, so he was a bit of a Renly, not a senior heir of any line, and he was still spared as an already crowned king).

[Tianzi]

On 1.03.2018 at 11:48 PM, Darion Storm said:

I might be able to see him doing it on his deathbed, if he had no heir of his own body.

But certainly not before that point, I expect any legitimised bastard of Robert would have a better claim than any trueborn son of Stannis in most people’s eyes.

Exactly.

And if Stannis has half a brain, he has learned his lesson about popularity vs lawful claim after Renly.

 

Plus, he himself wanted to legitimize Jon and push him into the Stark line before Sansa, so the analogy really wouldn't give him any favors if Robert's son were legitimized.