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Will Sansa bring the Knights of the Vale North?


LordImp

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22 minutes ago, zandru said:

Your scenario is pretty compelling. I'd just like to offer a slight change of wording. Sansa is unlikely to "escape"; she'll be "rescued" or "abducted." Escape implies that she used her own volition, which we haven't yet seen.

The connection with Lady Stoneheart is particularly intriguing, I think. I agree that the Lady isn't some cold avenging wight blindly bent on slaughter. Her targetted capture, questioning, and execution of Merrett Frey show that. We don't yet know how the plans with Brienne were set up or worked out, but using her former sworn sword to bring in (bring down?) her former captive shows that the thought processes are still active. And a good number of the Brotherhood w/o Banners have stuck with her. I can see connections with the Blackfish (Cat's uncle) - if he isn't the ghost of Winterfell. I don't see the Hound getting involved. Catelyn never had any kind of relationship with him, and besides, "the Hound" is dead.

I hope you're right about young Robert Arryn. I'm really tired of him just being a spoiled, whiny brat who's learned to use his medical condition to get what he wants. Bronze Yohn needs to foster him into a man.

 

Yeah, I think it'd look more like a rescue or an abduction with abduction giving Robert even more incentive to go after her - especially if that abductor is a dastardly Lannister. I think Sansa will take initiative ~eventually~ but not likely to be soon. I think she won’t develop initiative until she gets a big kick to the backside in that a Stone never moves unless kicked. She might pipe in with some ideas as to how to get out because at this point she’d know more just by being around, but that’s about it. She’d have to be the one to deal with the Wildlings as she’s the only one that they’d know unless they worked with Jaime as Lord of Casterly Rock in getting her out.

 

I'd like to see her escape, but I have my doubts as to that happening on her own. Being a teenage girl makes that a big problem as well. It's the same reason Arya had to be removed from the wandering the Riverlands arc. It only worked as long as she could pass for a boy and even then it was still very dangerous.

 

Definitely agree about the Hound being a longshot. It’s possible so I tossed it in there, but I don’t agree with the SanSans as to the nature of their relationship. Definitely something there, but not what it’s made out to be by some of the fandom. I think Sansa’s fantasy about the Hound was more about telling the reader that Sansa is growing up and that her tastes have changed drastically since her crush on Joff. She says later that she doesn’t want to marry now or maybe ever, which would include the Hound. Also, were you in love with and wanted to marry everyone you fantasized about? ;)

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49 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Really ? Weird when we consider Ned's decapitation.

Heh. Cersei was technically the regent (when Tyrion or Tywin wasn't in town), but seemed to mainly use her powers for her own strategems, while failing to rein in (reign! in!!) her loathsome son in any way. Similar to Lady Lysa Arryn, who acted as regent to little Robert, but still let him do almost anything he wanted to as "Lord of the Vale." Good parenting in Westeros seems as rare as good government - and is often indistinguishable!

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18 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I think Sansa’s fantasy about the Hound was more about telling the reader that Sansa is growing up and that her tastes have changed drastically since her crush on Joff.

That seems like a good interpretation. Even though Sandor Clegane seems to be the standard by which Sansa judges all men, she's still apparently frozen with terror when he's actually present. It's going to be interesting should she learn of how he's "gone outlaw" and is raiding, raping, and killing in the Riverlands.

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5 minutes ago, Damsel in Distress said:

That's only on the show.  She won't make it out of the Eyrie.

Well, to be technical, Sansa and everyone left the Eyrie as winter was closing in and it became both unreachable and uninhabitable. She's now in one of the lower castles. But still the Vale of Arryn!

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20 minutes ago, zandru said:

Heh. Cersei was technically the regent (when Tyrion or Tywin wasn't in town), but seemed to mainly use her powers for her own strategems, while failing to rein in (reign! in!!) her loathsome son in any way. 

Or more like not for her own strategems, as the idea of Ned taking the black came from her. 

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7 hours ago, LordImp said:

One of the storylines I find hard to predict is Sansa's . I really don't have a clue what will go down in the Vale.

But there's one thing I might think happens. That is Sansa bringing the KOTV North to retake Winterfell. Maybe she hears rumors about Rickon or something ? 

Sansa is probably going home anyway , so it's pretty much a question if she'll do it alone or with an army. 

What do you think ? 

1.  Rickon isn't showing up anytime soon.  Anybody who thinks that Davos is going to do a simple "out and back" to Skagos is in for a rude surprise.  I think Davos winds up at Hardhome (the timing is about right) and then heads into the Far North (which we've been told we'll see).  Whether or not he has Rickon in tow, I don't see either one getting south of the Wall for some time.

2.  Robb's Will.  While we don't knnow its contents. it is safe to assume that it disinherits Sansa.  Which means that she is unnlikely to be able to simply waltz up North and be welcomed.

3.  And I don't see why the Knights of the Vale would be interested in a fight to take Winterfell.  Especially if it is against the Northerners, their natural allies.  Of course, the battle for Winterfell will likely be over by that point, with either Stannis or the Manderlys, or both, in control.

4.  Winter is here, and the Others are coming.  This is where I think Sansa's story is headed.  Jon will ask for help, and Sansa will convince the Lords of the Vale, and their Knights to send it.  Given the apparent affinity for fighting the Others. this may be easier than she thinks.  I can see Baelish opposing this, or causing problems, resulting in a breach between them.  That a breach is coming I do not doubt, but I'm not sure of the cause.

I'm, fairly confident about Davos and Rickon staying North of the Wall, and that Sansa will help out in the fight against the Others, as well as the fact that she ultimately destroys Littlefinger.  The rest is up in the air.

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24 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Northerners, their natural allies.  Of course, the battle for Winterfell will likely be over by that point, with either Stannis or the Manderlys, or both, in control.

The Boltons , doubt they would have problem figthing them. 

Everybody assumes Stannis wins. He'll defeat the Freys yes , but he might loose against the Boltons. 

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22 minutes ago, LordImp said:

The Boltons , doubt they would have problem figthing them. 

Everybody assumes Stannis wins. He'll defeat the Freys yes , but he might loose against the Boltons. 

I still have a hard time seeing the Knights being willing to simply help Sansa take power in the North.  There is going to need to be more.  The fight in the Riverlands was an invasion.  This is an internal fight among Northerners.

I do think that Sansa's story lies in the North.  She is a Stark and always has been, even if she de-emphasized it for a time.  The South holds nothing for her, so I don't see her going there.

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I think the Vale is going to get caight up in the Second Dance of the Dragons. A Lannister always pays his debts, and Tyrion owes the Vale to the clansmen. Timett son of Timett is Robert Arryn's true heir, not Harold Hardyng. 

I think Petyr will back Harold while Bronze Yohn, with encouragement from Daenerys on her big black dragon and Tyrion with his or Brown Ben's white dragon, will back Timett. When the dragons start dancing, Aegon with his green dragon will back Harold, and we'll have our second war between a black queen and a green Aegon. 

Tyrion and the white dragon will betray Daenerys, like Ulf the White of old, but Daenerys will still win, and maybe, just maybe, Timett son of Timett, with a drop of dragonblood, will take that white dragon. 

By then, things should be getting pretty desperate up north, and as the George has suggested, all the remaining plot lines will come together in the final battle of the War for the Dawn. My guess is that it will end where it began... Winterfell. 

By night all banners are black, so the knights of the Vale and everyone else are going to go north eventually. 

So, if Arya doesn't slay Petyr in Vale, she will do it in Winterfell or on the way. 

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18 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I think the Vale is going to get caight up in the Second Dance of the Dragons. A Lannister always pays his debts, and Tyrion owes the Vale to the clansmen. Timett son of Timett is Robert Arryn's true heir, not Harold Hardyng. 

I think Petyr will back Harold while Bronze Yohn, with encouragement from Daenerys on her big black dragon and Tyrion with his or Brown Ben's white dragon, will back Timett. When the dragons start dancing, Aegon with his green dragon will back Harold, and we'll have our second war between a black queen and a green Aegon. 

Tyrion and the white dragon will betray Daenerys, like Ulf the White of old, but Daenerys will still win, and maybe, just maybe, Timett son of Timett, with a drop of dragonblood, will take that white dragon. 

By then, things should be getting pretty desperate up north, and as the George has suggested, all the remaining plot lines will come together in the final battle of the War for the Dawn. My guess is that it will end where it began... Winterfell. 

By night all banners are black, so the knights of the Vale and everyone else are going to go north eventually. 

So, if Arya doesn't slay Petyr in Vale, she will do it in Winterfell or on the way. 

Do you see Dany & Co arriving in Westeros much sooner than the end of TWOW or early ADOS? I just can't see the Vale remaining in this stasis for an entire book especially as it looks like things will get very chaotic there very soon. 

I think everyone will get pushed south as the wildlings were pushed south. A lot of the southern story with its deep detail becomes pointless filler for me if they only unify in the end to go North. Seems like a more dynamic story to see the Northerners and Wildlings pushed south and have to deal with everything that entails. And Storm's End is in the South and that seems quite important. 

 

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3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Do you see Dany & Co arriving in Westeros much sooner than the end of TWOW or early ADOS? I just can't see the Vale remaining in this stasis for an entire book especially as it looks like things will get very chaotic there very soon. 

I think everyone will get pushed south as the wildlings were pushed south. A lot of the southern story with its deep detail becomes pointless filler for me if they only unify in the end to go North. Seems like a more dynamic story to see the Northerners and Wildlings pushed south and have to deal with everything that entails. And Storm's End is in the South and that seems quite important. 

I think she's going to light her second fire, finish a little business in Essos and then pull Aegon's biscuits out of the fire in Westeros. 

I think Cregan Stark's example from the Dance of the Dragons foreshadows Stannis marching a host of Nothmen south. He'll be looking to assert his claim, and they'll be looking to avoid the worst of winter and sparing their families a mouth to feed. Daenerys will have Drogon melt his face, and Northmen will bow to her power. 

As for the importance of Storm's End, recall Jon Connington believes that Aegon can fall back on Storm's End if necessary. So, I can see Euron pressing Aegon and, well he says he's the storm, so that's where he ought to meet his end when Daenerys comes to save Aegon's biscuits. 

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I have to agree that Sansa's story line is one of the hardest to predict because she has connections, directly or indirectly with a huge number of characters whose fates will impact on her.

As soon as I heard of the idea of the Wing Knights however what crossed my mind is that they will be used at some point and that she will use them to her advantage.  However I don' think this will happen very soon and yes the Boltons and Stannis will sort each other other much before IMHO.

I disagree with the readers that feel that she is going to stay pretty much as a damsel in distress to be rescued for much longer.  Yes, LF is the main manipulator for now but I think she is keeping her eyes and ears very open although at present there isn't a huge amount she can do, at least not until Cersei is neutralised.  I think George has been really clever with her recent points of view.  She notices things but she appears not to act.  I think this is because otherwise it would be a huge spoiler.  She knows of LF's involvement in the Purple Wedding and how he not just framed Tyrion but herself!  yet she appears to like part of him (Petyr v LF) which I think is somewhat a red herring.  She has also been told by the maester that too much medication could be fatal to Robin yet she insists she gives him some to stop the shakes.  Still this was at a time when it was essential that Robin made it down to the Gates of the Moon.  I cannot see her allowing him to be poisoned.  She is ambitious yes but I don't see this as a bad point although I think she is likely to be furious to learn that Robb disinherited her.

The first thing that impacts on whether and when she will go north regardless of the Winged Knights is, of course, the Battle of Ice.  My incline is that Stannis will win and that the Manderleys will betray the Boltons.  I think part of the motivation here is Rickon.  It seems pretty obvious that Wyman has him in mind for one of his grandaughters.  However, I think it would make sense if Stannis tried to betroth him to Shireen hence killing two birds with one stone by giving Winterfell to a Stark but one married into his own family.  I reckon this is going to be when things go to pot.  Ser Wyman may try some trick to prevent this betrothal, say by keeping Rickon hidden or something (really not sure what) and that this is going to go arse up and I expect Rickon to die.  Okay, it could also be that he lives and becomes the "Stark in Winterfell" if all his siblings have more important roles to play elsewhere but this character is hugely underdeveloped and, personally, I would find it disappointing if he ended up with WF (unless as I said the other siblings have more  juicy prizes or more interesting destinies, like maybe Bran).

Now, we know that Shireen is going to burn by we don't know the circumstances.  Whatever happens I reckon Stannis will be blamed (even if he didn't know or commanded this, say it could be Mel on her own) and his troops are not going to take kindly to this on top of huge loses which I am sure he will incur even if he wins and they may just disband on head south.  Now of course we have now idea when Jon is going to come back and what his stance will be but I doubt that he will want to become Lord of Winterfell regardless of Robb's will although it is possible that he may feel he has no choice.  My bet is on the Northern Lords backing their own candidate, which could make Sansa want to take what she sees as her right, or at least her family's right from them.  Why would the KOTV follow her?  It seems that they would only do this if she is either married to Robin or Harry.  I agree that she is in no hurry to marry anyone.  Okay, yes Tyrion is in the way but once her identity is known she could ask for an annulment even without his consent (she doesn't need his consent).  Still she knows that if she marries Harry, Robin dies.  Well Robin dies either way unless she delays matters enough to be in a position to neutralise LF.  Even if Harry inherits sooner or later if LF is around he dies too lol.  I reckon the best way to resolve this is for Harry to win wings which means that the betrothal stands but there is a 3 year wait and much and more can happen in 3 years.

Now, I am also absolutely sure that we are going to see the tribes again and I believe they will get mobilised due to the lack of food.  Some peasants may even join them.  Now of course Sansa knows where the food is.  She could tell someone if it suited her.  I think this could be where Ser Sadrich comes into the plot.  I don't think he means to kidnap Sansa.  In fact I think he does work for Varys but as an informer.   If I am right of course this means that Varys knows where she is.  Why would Varys care?  Well, I found the way he "head-hunted" Tyrion a little extreme so he has big plans for Tyrion.  I would not be surprised if Tyrion finds out in Winds where Sansa is.  Okay, yes he has been a little mad at her for leaving him holding the can but he even said at one point that she could not have acted alone.  In fact I am surprised Tyrion has not yet put 2 and 2 together on this one but I guess he spent ADWD busy sulking lol  One thing that seems clear to me is that Tyrion is joining team Dany right now, much prior to her resurfacing with the Dothraki and that he will win her over.  After all he handed over the Second Sons to her cause...  Of course that leaves Victarion and his role in all this too.  I reckon he is going to make some stupid mistake and die.  My wagger is in killing Dany's husband but we shall see.  Euron of course is going to have a great impact on the overall plot for all characters but no idea exactly what.

Of course it is arguable that I am mentioning a ton of characters that are nowhere near Sansa or the Vale right now but I think it is all very, very interlinked.  With Tyrion I think she will hear, but possibly towards the very end of Winds of beginning of ADOS that he is backing Dany.  I expect by then Aegon will sit in the IT, Cersei will likely be under some sort of house arrest, possibly in Casterly Rock and that she may seek his help in return for info on the food.  Why would she do that? Well there have been a couple of phrases thrown in in her last two chapters thinking more or less kindly of him.  Now, she is going to learn he is once again powerful.  He certainly could help her bring down LF.  The gods know he has almost as much reason to do so than her.  Of course he will mistrust her, especially as she is with LF but info on the location of the food could be bait for him and I think this is where the tribes get told "go get the food and cause havoc" lol 

Of course I do not expect all my tinfoil plots to come to pass but I reckon some may.  Now Brienne and Jaime is another one.  I reckon Shadrich was giving Brienne clues, so if she has the sense to follow his trail she will get to Sansa.  Kidnapping her doesn't make sense.  Okay it is impractical due to the geographic and weather difficulties but anyhow where would Brienne take her?  To LSH?  Okay she may be sworn to this but that would certainly traumatise Sansa for life lol  I think it would be awfully cruel to let her see her mum like that so although it would make some sort of sense for Brienne to turn up at some point I am not sure where the plot could continue from there.  Of course if Tyrion and Sansa decided to team up and bring down LF by threat of dragons there would not be any need for her to use the KOTV to do anything, in WF or anywhere else if she is backed by Dany... and I am still sure that they are going to play a role.  Maybe what they could do is turn the Lords of the Vale against LF, well it would be up to Sansa really (nothing to do with Tyrion to be honest) and keep him alive for now but powerless, although this could be dangerous as he is a very resourceful character.  She could continue the charade about being Alayne for now and being betrothed to Harry so that she could persuade the Winged Knights to follow her north, possibly to help fighting WWs but of course her alliance with Tyrion will have to remain hidden.  Still the more I think about it the least I am making sense lol

Anyhow I think everyone will head towards WF eventually.  And yet more tinfoil: I am convinced that WF has protection against WWs, likely something to do with the crypts and the fact that there are hings that the NK was a Stark...  Anyhow this is what I have for now.

In summary, yes I think the Winged Knights will serve Sansa's interest at some point but not immediately and not necessarily just in terms of winning the castle from Stannis or the Boltons, if anything against the Manderleys or some other Northern Lords.

 

 

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Sansa may leave the Vale, but it's not likely that she'll be leading any Vale knights to fight in the North. As has been pointed out the logistics make it nearly impossible in the time available. She might be smuggled out by the Mad Mouse or the Gravedigger for all we know. 

The Bolton/Frey alliance is actually in trouble, as there are signs that the Wolfswood is full of Stark loyalists and Manderly has a large force of cavalry and a hatred of the Freys to go with it. And Barbrey Riswell has no love for Ramsey, so she might turn on Roose given the chance.

Everything is speculation at this point.

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If Sansa ends up in the Riverlands , then there could be a interesting reunion with her mother. Even more interesting would be the reunion between Littlefinger and Cat . Maybe LF will end TWOW hanging from a tree? 

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