Will Sansa bring the Knights of the Vale North?

[LordImp]

One of the storylines I find hard to predict is Sansa's . I really don't have a clue what will go down in the Vale.

But there's one thing I might think happens. That is Sansa bringing the KOTV North to retake Winterfell. Maybe she hears rumors about Rickon or something ? 

Sansa is probably going home anyway , so it's pretty much a question if she'll do it alone or with an army. 

What do you think ? 

[Leo of House Cartel]

41 minutes ago, LordImp said:

One of the storylines I find hard to predict is Sansa's . I really don't have a clue what will go down in the Vale.

But there's one thing I might think happens. That is Sansa bringing the KOTV North to retake Winterfell. Maybe she hears rumors about Rickon or something ? 

Sansa is probably going home anyway , so it's pretty much a question if she'll do it alone or with an army. 

What do you think ? 

Could certainly see this happening. Dependant on who rules in Winterfell come Sansa's arrival with the KOTV, I could see certain members of the Vale forces heading to the Wall.

What might Sansa think if she gets to Winterfell and meets Stannis or even Mance, I'm sure she would be interested in what they had to say about Jon/Winter.

Be it via a marriage to Harry/SweetRobin, or a friendship with the Royces of Runestone, I imagine Sansa will hold a good amount of sway by the end of the next book.

The only other real option would be for Littlefinger to have the Vale join forces with Aegon.

 

[lAPPYc]

I hope so, but I think not.

Sansa is someone who knows that Ned wanted Stannis on the throne, so she could be instrumental in bringing my favorite kingdom to support my favorite king. But since Petyr has announced plans for taking the KotV to the North, it probably won't happen.

Instead, there is a civil war ripe to occur between the Freys, and many of the Vale houses, including House Hardying, have vested interests in seeing one side or the other win. Also, in the Alayne sample chapter, Petyr is seen talking about grain prices, and the Riverlands are on the verge of a famine. I won't be surprised if Petyr were to manipulate some Vale lord to start selling to some Riverlord, probably some Frey, to buy them up for the next war.

So yeah, I think Sansa's immediate future is in the Riverlands, playing Freys and Darrys and Crackhals and Lannisters against each other. From there, she will then probably come in contact/conflict with Aegon.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

It is so hard to say with Sansa.  I think LF is the giant she will slay in Winterfell, but how and when and why are all so tough to gage.  Part of me thinks Sansa will leave to meet Rickon after Stannis installs him as Lord of Winterfell, and Littlefinger sensing an opportunity will be involved in having Rickon killed in an attempt to make Sansa the ruling Lady in Winterfell (all this while Stannis is back at the wall preparing for the Others), and this is why Sansa has LF killed.  But LF would never support King Stannis so maybe he goes with the KotV after Stannis has been killed by the Others and while Rickon is possibly being considered KitN?  Maybe LF takes the KotV there because he gets word of the Pink Letter and assumes this is an opportunity to install Sansa, not knowing Stannis has actually won and has Rickon in hand?

[Ckram]

I suspect that taking the Knights of the Valley north is only a way of causing severe casualties to Vale Houses and leaving them unprotected during Winter.

Some people in this forum even argue that it is very likely that Bronze Yohn Royce will resist sending his own troops. I happen to agree that this is likely, but I do not think it will prevail and the Vale Houses will head Norht and will be of great value against the Others.

In fact, If you read the mottos of Vale Homes available on the Wiki, you will surely notice that many of them have strong indications of referring to the Long Night, if I may:

• House Egen: "By day and by Night"
• House Royce of Runestone: "We Remember"
• House Tollet: "When All is Darkest"
• House Waxley: "Light in Darkness"

On the other hand, a friend blew my mind the other day with following question: "What if Royce's bronze runic armor, which is said to make their wearers immune to injury but never works in the battle, only works against the Others?". Maybe we'll know soon enough.

[zandru]

I doubt that Sansa will do anything other than what her father "Petyr" tells her to. She hasn't been a self-starter.

Spoiler

Even her high-level flirtation skills were at the behest of, and under the tutelage of Littlefinger. She wouldn't have tried to romance, let alone manipulate the ill-mannered, loathsome Harry the Heir on her own.

Moreover, winter is setting in hard. The Eyrie is no longer habitable. The Vale is mountainous territory, hard to get in and out of. Winterfell is much, much colder and more snowed in. Anyone with half a brain (this leaves out Littlefinger) would stay there, as opposed to seeking battle in eyeball deep snow a thousand leagues away.

44 minutes ago, lAPPYc said:

Sansa is someone who knows that Ned wanted Stannis on the throne,

I didn't see where Ned told his daughters about the letter he was writing to Stannis, or Joffrey's bastardy. I know this allegation was part of the treason charges levied against him by Cersei et al, but does Sansa still believe everything Cersei told her? Scratch that; of course she does.

44 minutes ago, lAPPYc said:

So yeah, I think Sansa's immediate future is in the Riverlands, playing Freys and Darrys and Crakehals and Lannisters against each other. From there, she will then probably come in contact/conflict with Aegon.

This sounds pretty plausible to me. But I also believe that she'll be little more than Littlefinger's pretty sock puppet, and it has vast potential to end badly. Particularly if one day Daenerys arrives with her dragons, Dothraki, sellswords etc. And, of course, the possibility that Stannis will take the North back from the Bolton scum. He does believe that he's the only legitimate king of the 7 kingdoms, after all.

[zandru]

4 minutes ago, Ckram said:

In fact, If you read the mottos of Vale Homes available on the Wiki, you will surely notice that many of them have strong indications of referring to the Long Night, if I may:

• House Egen: "By day and by Night"
• House Royce of Runestone: "We Remember"
• House Tollet: "When All is Darkest"
• House Waxley: "Light in Darkness"

On the other hand, a friend blew my mind the other day with following question: "What if Royce's bronze runic armor, which is said to make their wearers immune to injury but never works in the battle, only works against the Others?". Maybe we'll know soon enough.

Wow! I think you're onto something there. It would be further confirmation of how far south the Others got during the previous Long Night. And the long-forgotten powers of the bronze runic armor is a really cool idea.

[LordImp]

45 minutes ago, Ckram said:

• House Egen: "By day and by Night"
• House Royce of Runestone: "We Remember"
• House Tollet: "When All is Darkest"
• House Waxley: "Light in Darkness"

That's really interestning ! 

 

1 hour ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Rickon killed in an attempt to make Sansa the ruling Lady in Winterfell

I think this makes happen aswell..

 

1 hour ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Stannis has actually won

Would be interestning to see LF's reaction to that. 

Though Stannis can also lose , which opens some possibilities for LF. 

1 hour ago, lAPPYc said:

Riverlands,

This makes sense aswell. 

[Stormking902]

I think Sansa learns from her past mistake of betraying her family although it was unintentional and helps sweet Robin take down good ol uncle LF who wants him dead. After that she will use her lady goods or the promise of her lady goods to seduce Robin and the Knights of the Vale will march on the North to help take back WF but when they arrive they realise Stannis has already taken it and requires there help with WW in the promise of returning the North to house Stark. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

4 hours ago, LordImp said:

One of the storylines I find hard to predict is Sansa's . I really don't have a clue what will go down in the Vale.

But there's one thing I might think happens. That is Sansa bringing the KOTV North to retake Winterfell. Maybe she hears rumors about Rickon or something ? 

Sansa is probably going home anyway , so it's pretty much a question if she'll do it alone or with an army. 

What do you think ? 

we will probably find out sometime in 2019 or 2020 if George ever gets around to working on winds 

[Corvo the Crow]

This is not the show that armies and characters are able to do teleportation and/or travel in time so even if the lords of the vale raise their armies for whatever cause of hers, they'll never make it to north before things are already settled between Stanley the manly, Bolt-on and Manderly&friends.

Besides, during the winter there is no way in or out of the vale, whether by land or by sea.

[The Commentator]

Somehow, I don't see Sansa returning to the north.  She lost her direwolf.  She is no longer a Stark.  No longer of the north.  In my opinion, Sansa has thrown in with Baelish.  Like Bael, Baelish will take for himself a daughter of Winterfell and get her with child.  Learning what Baelish did to her family is not going to stop Sansa from playing his game.  Bealish is her ticket to the good life that she has always wanted.  None of the living Starks can give her the life of luxury, nice things, and social prestige that Bealish can.  

How far can the Baelish-Sansa team go?  I don't believe they can take control of the Vale and hold it for any length of time.  There are too many proud families in the Vale to allow someone of House Baelish to lord over them.  But the Riverlands are ripe for them to take.  Baelish is already the paramount lord and Sansa has Tully blood to placate the families who still hold some loyalty to Edmure.  I feel like the Riverlands is the best chance for Baelish-Sansa to establish their territory.  They should be able to hold the Riverlands as long as Sansa continues to hide her identity from the Lannisters.  It is a house of cards that will collapse eventually but team Baelish-Sansa will get to enjoy the ride for a while.  

[The Commentator]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

This is not the show that armies and characters are able to do teleportation and/or travel in time so even if the lords of the vale raise their armies for whatever cause of hers, they'll never make it to north before things are already settled between Stanley the manly, Bolt-on and Manderly&friends.

Besides, during the winter there is no way in or out of the vale, whether by land or by sea.

Valid observations.  It is not so easy to mobilize troops out of the Vale.  

Spoiler

And it seems like Baelish plans to hold his stock of grains.  No way he's leaving that behind.  I am contradicting my earlier prediction that team Baelish-Sansa will go to the Riverlands but now that you mention it, yes, Baelish is not going anywhere while that grain is safely stored in that mountain.  

 

[SirArthur]

5 hours ago, LordImp said:

What do you think ? 

I don't think she will do anything as she in not of legal weserosi age and needs a guardian. Then again there is Joeffrey and it still confuses me how he has no regent.  Everyone else has one. 

[Megorova]

I think that Sansa will just sit in the Eyrie doing nothing. While other people in The Vale will think what to do with all this situation between Littlefinger, Robin and Harry.

Sansa is not a thinker, not a planner, not a politician or strategist, not a commander or leader. Her only worth is that she's a Stark, last known real Stark that is still alive. So LF is going to use her. She's the key to three Kingdoms. That's the only reason why LF got her involved into Joffrey's poisoning, and stole her from Lannisters.

So his next step would be to marry Sansa either with Robin or with Harry, to seize control of the Vale thru that marriage. And then her husband will suddenly die, from the same unknown illness as Jon Arryn.

Then LF will wait until situation in The North and Riverlands will be resolved.

In The North, those houses that betrayed Starks, and sided with Boltons, will be either defeated by Stannis and his troops, or the opposite will happen, and Stannis will be defeated by Boltons. Meanwhile in Riverlands there's a confrontation between Freys, remaining Tullys and their people, Lannisters, and LSH. Then either Freys will win again, and Sansa's uncle Edmure will be dead. Or Lannisters will become headless, without Jaime, and will retreat from Riverlands. Most likely, when Cersei will find out about Kevan's death, she will order Lannisters troops to go to KL, to protect her and King Tommen from their enemies.  So when there will be no more Lannisters left in Riverlands, LSH will deal with the remaining Freys, and will free her brother Edmure.

In both scenarios, 1. Edmure dead or 2. Edmure alive and free, LF can use their outcome for his own benefit. He will gather Knights of The Vale to go to Riverlands. To either avenge death of Robin's uncle Edmure, or in case if Edmure will be freed from Freys, and will return to Riverrun, then LF can gather Knights, under pretense of helping Edmure, to get back control over Riverlands.

Then in case if Boltons will be winners in the northern battle, LF can rally troops from both The Vale and Riverlands, under pretense of returning Winterfell to its rightful owner - Sansa Stark. Or if Stannis will win in northern battle, then LF can convince Sansa (or Sansa and Edmure, if Edmure will be alive) to support Stannis, because her father was going to do the very same thing. Either way The North will return to Starks/Sansa. Even without Sansa herself doing anything.

Then LF will rally troops from three Kingdoms to attack Lannisters in King's Landing. But by that time fAegon will be either holding KL in siege, or will already seize Iron Throne and become King Aegon VI. Stannis won't live long. So LF will offer to King Aegon to marry with Sansa Stark, the key to three Kingdoms. With additional secret plan to poison Aegon after the wedding, and to marry with Queen Dowager Sansa, and that way for LF to become King of 7K. And then his wife could also die from sudden illness, same as Jon Arryn. Though most likely Daenerys will arrive to Westeros prior LF will have an opportunity to go with his troops to KL. So in the end he will be stuck between troops of fAegon, Dany and the Others approaching from the north. RIP LF.

And then Jon will defeat all of them

Though if to be serious, I don't think that Sansa is able to achieve anything on her own. She's not Jon, Arya, or even Bran. She's just a pawn, used by others. Her role is maiden in a tower, waiting to be rescued.

[Lollygag]

I think LF is BS-ing Sansa about ruling the Vale. There's not enough time for her marriage problem with Tyrion to be resolved, marry Harry, and then have a healthy kid. Absent that, why would anyone accept Sansa who has no Arryn blood as leader of the Vale when there are other Arryns around via the other branches of the family like the Arryns of Gulltown?

So I think Sansa escapes. There's a list of people who could help her: Myranda might help if it leaves Harry free for her providing he doesn't die first. There's the Mad Mouse. Lyn Corbray could screw LF in some way. Lyn has Stark blood and is ambitious - makes sense for him to covet Winterfell for himself. No way Stoneheart hasn't looked into LF's mysterious daughter who just showed up right when Sansa disappeared given she knows of LF's obsession with her, so I expect Jaime and Brienne to head that way. Jaime who has more or less resigned from the KG based on the precedent set by the release of Barristan automatically becomes Lord of Casterly Rock and Sansa's liege lord in addition to her brother-in-law. That overrides any custody claim LF may have over Sansa as her legal uncle who is not blood-related. Maybe the Hound. The Blackfish is out there somewhere.  I'd expect the Wildlings to play a part. Sansa is Tyrion's wife and Tyrion owes a debt to them so it's in their favor to help her. Not to mention that they were starving and desperate back in AGOT when there was no war and it was summer.

Robert Arryn is written too richly for me to think he's a plot device who will just die or disappear when no longer needed. If the Vale army is to end up in the North,  it makes more sense to me that it's Robert Arryn giving chase in an attempt to get Sansa back. 

 

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Besides, during the winter there is no way in or out of the vale, whether by land or by sea.

Do you have a quote for this? Not recalling it at the moment.

TWOW Alayne Spoiler

Spoiler

Not being able to enter or leave the Vale at all during Winter would mean one also couldn't sell grain during the Winter.

 

[LordImp]

34 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I don't think she will do anything as she in not of legal weserosi age and needs a guardian. Then again there is Joeffrey and it still confuses me how he has no regent.  Everyone else has one. 

Cersei was Joffrey's regent.

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

This is not the show that armies and characters are able to do teleportation and/or travel in time so even if the lords of the vale raise their armies for whatever cause of hers, they'll never make it to north before things are already settled between Stanley the manly, Bolt-on and Manderly&friends.

Jon Connington said that it will take six months to get to Stannis, from Stormlands to The North. And the battle in Winterfell already happened, when Golden Company arrived to Westeros. So by the time Aegon will go into next battle, to seize Storm's End, Winterfell will already have new master, either Stannis or Jon Snow. The Vale is halfway closer to The North than Stormlands, so it will take at least 3 months, to get from the Eyrie to Winterfell (with all troops, provisions and armor). So even if Sansa and LF will eventually depart from The Vale, then they will arrive to Winterfell, long after the battles there will be already over.

[John Suburbs]

It's not really up to Sansa to bring the Vale knights anywhere. If they march, it will be at the direction of Littlefinger or whichever lord assumes control of Robin in the event of LF's demise.

But I agree above: Winterfell would be tough to reach at this point. Although if anybody could do it, it would be the Vale men, since they are more accustomed to snowy, mountainous terrain than, say, stormlanders.

We should also consider that LF might not want to restore Sansa to Winterfell just yet. She is still a hot commodity with a price on her head and all, and if he were to march on Winterfell, it would either be to remove the Boltons or Stannis. Neither option is great. The Boltons are still nominally loyal to the Lannisters, so he would essentially become a traitor to the crown if he supplanted them, which I don't see the Vale lords being too eager to do even if they know who Sansa is. If it's Stannis, that would suit Cersei pretty well but then that would evaporate quickly if Sansa were to openly claim herself as the Lady of Winterfell.

The only other option would be to feign reinforcing the Boltons at Winterfell and then use some treachery to eliminate them. But since the battle with Stannis will likely be over by the time they get there, it would look strange, especially to the Boltons and Freys, to suddenly have a Vale army in their midst.

So my guess is that LF will keep Sansa under wraps until the Lannister threat (meaning Cersei) is removed, and then reveal her identity as the rightful heir to Winterfell. If, of course, that is what he wants.

[zandru]

16 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

So I think Sansa escapes.

Your scenario is pretty compelling. I'd just like to offer a slight change of wording. Sansa is unlikely to "escape"; she'll be "rescued" or "abducted." Escape implies that she used her own volition, which we haven't yet seen.

The connection with Lady Stoneheart is particularly intriguing, I think. I agree that the Lady isn't some cold avenging wight blindly bent on slaughter. Her targetted capture, questioning, and execution of Merrett Frey show that. We don't yet know how the plans with Brienne were set up or worked out, but using her former sworn sword to bring in (bring down?) her former captive shows that the thought processes are still active. And a good number of the Brotherhood w/o Banners have stuck with her. I can see connections with the Blackfish (Cat's uncle) - if he isn't the ghost of Winterfell. I don't see the Hound getting involved. Catelyn never had any kind of relationship with him, and besides, "the Hound" is dead.

I hope you're right about young Robert Arryn. I'm really tired of him just being a spoiled, whiny brat who's learned to use his medical condition to get what he wants. Bronze Yohn needs to foster him into a man.