Rhaegar's plan for Great council

[Tygett Lannister]

12 hours ago, Texas Hold Em said:

Why in hell's name would any great council choose Rhaegar?  They'll want to hang his ass for causing the war in the first place.  Westeros was doing very well in terms of the economy and that is what most people care about.   It was a time of plenty.  

Aerys caused the war not Rhaegar.

 

[Kandrax]

4 hours ago, RedGrace that was promised said:

He will make oath in sept.

If he kills him after they  both become night's watchmen, he would be executed.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Aerys caused the war not Rhaegar.

 

People tend to forget that, like Benioff and Weiss.

[Paxter Redwyne]

2 hours ago, RedGrace that was promised said:

I meant that Stannis's acts really affected RR while Benjen didn't. Benjen didn't take part in rebellion, Beside it Benjen is Lyanna's brother.

Ned i also Lyanna's brother.

2 hours ago, RedGrace that was promised said:

If Rhaegar wants to be king he could propose all possible marriages between Targaryen princes/princesses and the people whose words will matter in Great Council.

You don't need Great Council to make Aerys relinquish his crown in favor of his son.

2 hours ago, RedGrace that was promised said:

What if Edmure is ruling instead of Hoster?

Then she is sister of Lord Paramount of Trident. What is this supposed to change? She would be next in line to inherit Riverrun.

I am sorry, but this just sounds like bad fanfiction.

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, RedGrace that was promised said:

According to Jaime, Rhaegar wanted to call Great Council. There is only one reason for such event.

No, great councils can do all manner of things -- settle issues of inheritance, establish regents for young kings... -- but never has one been called to remove a sitting king. Maybe this would have been the first one to do so, but it would establish a new precedent, one that even Rhaegar might not be pleased with.

In all likelihood, a Great Council that voted to remove Aerys would have some lords supporting the idea and some against it, so the result would be the same: another civil war.

 

[Haus Berlin]

Thanks alot for bringing up this question, @RedGrace that was promised. It is not long that I use this forum, so I don’t know how often or how thorough the idea of a Great Council had been already discussed. Unlike you I think about the GC in terms of “what when” rather than “what if”. I am sure that we will witness a GC at the end of the series and with Rhaegar as starting point. How? Here is an idea, initiated by three things that caught my attention:

 

1)       Of Rhaegar’s post-war scenario we only know through a memory of Jaime. With whom else had Rhaegar spoken about such things? We don’t know it yet and there are only two more books to come. Only, even a close friend like Jon Connington shows no concern for those changes Rhaegar played at, but tries to put Targaryen offspring directly on the throne - Targaryen incest inclusive should Aegon succeed in winning himself Daenery’s favour. Either Jon Connington knows nothing of his friend’s visions or he does not support them. Luckily we have Rhaegar’s word, that there will be more talk at his return. And he did return. Under the influence of weirwood Jaime gets visited by his and his dead brothers’ ghosts. Unfortunately we don’t have the end of their talk, because Jaime was too afraid to dream on, against his assertion to not fear them.

2)       Maybe we are too rash to think about a GC though, since Rhaegar only spoke about a council. Maybe Rhaegar thought that his father would clear the throne himself, once he is left only with crutches? Is this the true reason for Rhaegar’s strange willingness to take risks by fighting at the front, so that his father is left at the mercy of a young and resentful Jaime, who would rather save the young queen and her children than a rapist king, gallant fool he is? Rhaegar says as much, when he returns in Jaime’s dream. Had Jaime guarded Elia instead of the king, then Aerys’ descend into madness would have left him vulnerable to Tywin or himself. With Aerys dead no GC would be needed to make changes; a Small Council would suffice. A real crutch for his father would have been Ser Barristan, who was loyal and capable to do much and more to save his king and really, there was no need to leave his first wife and his heir exposed without even one Kingsguard. Only if there was another plan than safety. Seems like Rhaegar should have taken Jaime’s words more seriously, that he is no crutch but a Kingsguard. He guarded the king.

3)       There could be a pattern: If Rhaegar started a war after the failed attempt of a GC and wen Catelyn tried to prevent a war by promoting a GC, maybe the third attempt of a GC will end the war? Brienne was there, when Renly rejected Catelyn’s offer and died only seconds later. “Let the assembled lords of the Seven Kingdoms choose who shall rule them,” she had said and this was pretty much what Jaime did, when he sat the Iron Throne after Aerys’ death.

 

The supposed Kingslayers did band together, as Jaime suggested when Brienne departed from King’s Landing. Now the two of them are together in an area controlled by a brotherhood, whose king is dead and whose leader Stoneheart had lost focus on her idea of peace in favor of personal revenge. The Brotherhood without Banners is not bannerless any longer and should benefit from two Kingsguards, who swapped their banners for a white and a rainbow cloak. Here in the Riverlands Brienne should have seen what became of her Lady’s idea. Here in the Riverlands wierwood caves invite Jaime to dream on a dream he meanwhile catched up with. Other than the last time he faced Rhaegar’s ghost, Jaime is not following his sister anymore; he learned that Joffrey is gone and Tywin is dead too. Brienne and Pia flattered his ambitions, saying a white cloak becomes him. And he got a sword and passed it. How will this affect another wierwood dream, I wonder?

I have a notion, that old Ser Barristan might die soon and line up amongst the dead Kingsguard brothers in a wierwood dream’s continuation. He knows much he never talked about, because of vows that bind till death. And Daenerys’ ears were never very open for his truths. His views about what should be done and what can be done in his profession as it is, those views have changed. Other than the sworn brothers that died in Rhaegar’s war, Barristan likely would not accuse Jaime, who had to defend his act against ghosts that wouldn’t listen.

Please take a look at these often-cited sections once more:

 

Quote

 

Jaime had led a dozen guards below, with torches and ropes and lanterns. For hours they had groped through twisting passages, narrow crawl spaces, hidden doors, secret steps, and shafts that plunged down into utter blackness. Seldom had he felt so utterly a cripple. A man takes much for granted when he has two hands.  Ladders, for an instance. Even crawling did not come easy; not for nought do they speak of hands and knees. Nor could he hold a torch and climb, as others could. And all for naught. They found only darkness, dust, and rats. And dragons, lurking down below. He remembered the sullen orange glow of the coals in the iron dragon’s mouth. The brazier warmed a chamber at the bottom of a shaft where half a dozen tunnels met. On the floor he’d found a scuffed mosaic of the three-headed dragon of House Targaryen done in tiles of black and red. I know you, Kingslayer, the beast seemed to be saying. I have been here all the time, waiting for you to come to me. And it seemed to Jaime that he knew that voice, the iron tones that had once belonged to Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone. The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The  prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. “Your Grace,” Jaime had pleaded, “let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine.”  Prince Rhaegar shook his head. “My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour.”   Jaime’s anger had risen up in his throat. “I am not a crutch. I am a knight of the Kingsguard.”  “Then guard the king,” Ser Jon Darry snapped at him. “When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey.” Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime’s shoulder. “When this battle’s done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but... well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return.”  Those were the last words Rhaegar Targaryen ever spoke to him. Outside the gates an army had assembled, whilst another descended on the Trident. So the Prince of Dragonstone mounted up and donned his tall black helm, and rode forth to his doom. He was more right than he knew. When the battle was done, there were changes made. “Aerys thought no harm could come to him if he kept me near,” he told his father’s corpse. “Isn’t that amusing?” Lord Tywin seemed to think so; his smile was wider than before. (AFFC)

 

Naked and alone he stood, surrounded by enemies, with stone walls all around him pressing close. The Rock, he knew. He could feel the immense weight of it above his head. He was home. He was home and whole. He held his right hand up and flexed his fingers to feel the strength in them. It felt as good as sex. As good as swordplay. Four fingers and a thumb. He had dreamed that he was maimed, but it wasn’t so. Relief made him dizzy. My hand, my good hand. Nothing could hurt him so long as he was whole.  Around him stood a dozen tall dark figures in cowled robes that hid their faces. In their hands were spears. “Who are you?” he demanded of them. “What business do you have in Casterly Rock?” They gave no answer, only prodded him with the points of their spears. He had no choice but to descend. Down a twisting passageway he went, narrow steps carved from the living rock, down and down. I must go up, he told himself. Up, not down. Why am I going down? Below the earth his doom awaited, he knew with the certainty of dream; something dark and terrible lurked there, something that wanted him. Jaime tried to halt, but their spears prodded him on. If only I had my sword, nothing could harm me. The steps ended abruptly on echoing darkness. Jaime had the sense of vast space before him. He jerked to a halt, teetering on the edge of nothingness. A spearpoint jabbed at the small of the back, shoving him into the abyss. He shouted, but the fall was short. He landed on his hands and knees, upon soft sand and shallow water. There were watery caverns deep below Casterly Rock, but this one was strange to him. “What place is this?”  “Your place.” The voice echoed; it was a hundred voices, a thousand, the voices of all the Lannisters since Lann the Clever, who’d lived at the dawn of days. But most of all it was his father’s voice, and beside Lord Tywin stood his sister, pale and beautiful, a torch burning in her hand. Joffrey was there as well, the son they’d made together, and behind them a dozen more dark shapes with golden hair. “Sister, why has Father brought us here?” “Us? This is your place, Brother. This is your darkness.” Her torch was the only light in the cavern. Her torch was the only light in the world. She turned to go.  “Stay with me,” Jaime pleaded. “Don’t leave me here alone.” But they were leaving. “Don’t leave me in the dark!” Something terrible lived down here. “Give me a sword, at least.”  “I gave you a sword,” Lord Tywin said. It was at his feet. Jaime groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. (…) “Do they keep a bear down here?” Brienne was moving, slow and wary, sword to hand; step, turn, and listen. Each step made a little splash. “A cave lion? Direwolves? Some bear? Tell me, Jaime. What lives here? What lives in the darkness?” “Doom.” No bear, he knew. No lion. “Only doom.”  (…)  “Listen.” She put a hand on his shoulder, and he trembled at the sudden touch. She’s warm. “Something comes.” (…) They make no sound, Jaime realized. No splashing, no clink of mail nor clop of hoof. He remembered Eddard Stark, riding the length of Aerys’s throne room wrapped in silence. Only his eyes had spoken; a lord’s eyes, cold and grey and full of judgment. “Is it you, Stark?” Jaime called. “Come ahead. I never feared you living, I do not fear you dead.” Brienne touched his arm. “There are more.”   He saw them too. They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders. The visors of their helms were closed, but Jaime Lannister did not need to look upon their faces to know them. Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne. “You don’t frighten me,” he called, turning as they split to either side of him. He did not know which way to face. “I will fight you one by one or all together. But who is there for the wench to duel? She gets cross when you leave her out.”  “I swore an oath to keep him safe,” she said to Rhaegar’s shade. “I swore a holy oath.” “We all swore oaths,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.  The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound. “He was going to burn the city,” Jaime said. “To leave Robert only ashes.”  “He was your king,” said Darry.  “You swore to keep him safe,” said Whent.  “And the children, them as well,” said Prince Lewyn.   Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “I left my wife and children in your hands.” “I never thought he’d hurt them.” Jaime’s sword was burning less brightly now. “I was with the king...”  “Killing the king,” said Ser Arthur.  “Cutting his throat,” said Prince Lewyn. “The king you had sworn to die for,” said the White Bull. The fires that ran along the blade were guttering out, and Jaime remembered what Cersei had said. No. Terror closed a hand about his throat. Then his sword went dark, and only Brienne’s burned, as the ghosts came rushing in. (ASOS)

 

 

That is why I think that a GC will come. Jaime followed his dream, but that dream was interrupted just when we learned how Rhaegar’s plan for a council failed. Jaime now follows Catelyn’s footsteps, who also planned a GC, but was rejected by Brienne’s former love-interest Renly. The idea of a GC can pop up between Jaime and Brienne during weeks in the woods. Maybe Brienne dreams to install a bannerles area where a council could be staged. Maybe Jaime takes his little king Tommen who so willingly signes everything and saves not the king but the kingdom by kidnapping. Goldenhand could make this world a little less injust if, rather than waiting for the outcome of a war as when he was seventeen, Jaime proactively arranges a GC with the aim to establish a Constitutional monarchy or better yet: have King Tom sign the end of a King-Dom.

[House Beaudreau]

On 3/2/2018 at 2:15 PM, RedGrace that was promised said:

Robert dies. Rebelion is over. Benjen, Edmure and Renly comes to power. Annulment. Rhaegar weds Lyanna. Aerys is imprisoned. +North +Riverlands +Vale .

Robert Dies, killed by Rhaegar, im fine with that. But Ned would bend the knee after the battle. So does he get sent to the wall, probably not, in my mind. especially with Rhaegar and Lyanna thing going on he remains the Lord of Winterfell and returns to the North Defeated. Stannis bends the knee as well to the Tyrells after the rebellion loses at the Trident, most of Storm's End's power and land would be stripped and probably the Conningtons would be the new Stormlords. Lyanna still dies tho. the outcome of the trident and Rhaegar dying doesn't change that. 

Rhaegar with the small council would defiantly be seizing the throne but I do not see Aerys being imprisoned by his own son, nor do I see him going the the Wall. He's either executed for his crimes by Rhaegar and council which is most likely or he lives out his days with his queen and children on Dragonstone. Dispossessing Aerys is one thing but locking him in a dungeon or putting him on the Wall is much to risky and delegitmize anyones reign until his death. 

Dont forget about John Arryn? Does he survive the Rebellion? Probably, But he defied a royal decree from the crown and that defiance let to rebellion. Aerys or Rhaegar either would take his head in the end, meaning the Arryn line dies out and a New lord is placed in the Vale.    

The Big Question here is if R+L= J then does Rhaegar disinherit Baby Aegon for Jon Snow. Rhaegar probably would believes Jon Snow is the prince that was promised. But Naming him Heir would probably be a Dornish rebellion for dispossession Aegon????   

[Lord Lannister]

Rhaegar always seemed to be one for the overly romantic and dramatic gesture. His entire purpose for calling a Great Council would be to "legally" remove Aerys and proclaim himself king. Well and noble, but this could've ended up backfiring on him massively. Had Rhaegar won at the Trident and killed Robert, he'd have to "confine" his father to the Red Keep or Dragonstone before he did this. Jaime certainly would be willing to go along with this, and the Kingsguard seemed to be in Rhaegar's pocket mostly.

This could've ended up backfiring on him in a huge manner however. Where's Rhaegar's support coming from? Half the kingdom was just crushed in a massive rebellion against his family, that he directed the effort to crush. Lyanna still likely dies in childbirth, so she's likely not going to be around to set Ned or Benjen(whoever's running the north) straight. You think Stannis is going to support Rhaegar? The Vale and Riverlands would still be divided. Dorne was all but blackmailed by Aerys to support him and insulted by Rhaegar by choosing Lyanna. Tywin Lannister, while certainly no friend of Aerys, is going to demand every concession from whoever gets his support. The Reach might back him, but that's not enough by itself. They also might back Aerys who would have his supporters as well. The Iron Islands, if they bothered showing up, would probably either try and demand the restoration of the old way as a concession or try crowning one of their own.

Stannis isn't quite hated universally yet, so he could be put forth as a viable candidate just as a screw you candidate to the Targaryens.

[Reekazoid]

On ‎3‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 3:31 PM, Paxter Redwyne said:

LF was fucking noone until Tywin gave him Harrenhal. 

This is incorrect. He was fucking Lysa Arryn. ;-)

[GallowsKnight]

4 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

You think Stannis is going to support Rhaegar?

I don't think Stannis would necessarily support Rhaegar, but I could see him making a conditional surrender where he received a pardon and kept the Stormlands.

Rhaegar might accept that to keep his ascension smooth like how we see Mace Tyrell keeping the Reach after Robert's Rebellions and how there was often leniency in previous civil wars to try and get peace established.

With Robert dead he is the Lord of Storm's End, he has the full authority to negotiate for the Stormlands and cannot be accused of failing in Robert's charge to hold Storm's End when Robert is no more.

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

11 minutes ago, GallowsKnight said:

Rhaegar might accept that to keep his ascension smooth like how we see Mace Tyrell keeping the Reach after Robert's Rebellions and how there was often leniency in previous civil wars to try and get peace established.

Mace Tyrell was pardoned by Robert because what he did was to stay loyal to his king.

Stannis wouldn't be pardoned by Rhaegar because he supported rebellion.

[GallowsKnight]

1 hour ago, Dead headofMaelysKinslayer said:

Mace Tyrell was pardoned by Robert because what he did was to stay loyal to his king.

Stannis wouldn't be pardoned by Rhaegar because he supported rebellion.

True. But there are example in previous conflicts to show some leniency to those that suppported Rebellion (I mean the Yronwoods rode for Blackfires every time and are still around) and a hesitancy to remove whole lines (they talk about removing the Lord of Casterly Rock and Storm's End during the Dance of Dragons and think it would set a dangerous precedence).

With Robert dead if Stannis laid down arms and bent the knee Rhaegar might show lenience in an attempt to avoid further conflict. Rhaegar might also show some empathy in Stannis supporting his family, who were also a wronged party by his father (Aery demanded Robert's head for no reason).

If Rhaegar wins the Trident and gains the Westerlands, he still has to deal with the Riverlands, North and Vale. Ideally by diplomacy rather than outright war. If Stannis is pardoned he can use this as an example to convince the surviving Starks, Tully, Arryns to surrender. If Stannis is treated poorly they might keep fighting.

Even if he has to fight these Kingdoms, it's easier if he doesn't have to worry about rebellion in the Stormlands diverting his attention/forces. Or if Stannis or Renly can smuggle themselves out of Storm's End to get to Essos or the Vale or North. Then he has the threat of one of them or their heirs fomenting Rebellion years down the track like the Blackfires did.

I'm not saying if I was him I'd just pardon Stannis and leave him there. I'd probably pardon him and make him and a small number his men come with the army to either negotiate or fight the Starks/Arryns/Tully. Keep your friends close and your former enemies closer. Then maybe keep him (and Renly) at court in Kings landing where I can keep an eye on him as a honored guest/defacto hostage. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 3/2/2018 at 1:15 PM, Dead headofMaelysKinslayer said:

 

Did Rhaegar really think that things will go like this after victory in Trident?

• Robert dies. Rebelion is over. Benjen, Edmure and Renly comes to power. Annulment. Rhaegar weds Lyanna. Aerys is imprisoned. +North +Riverlands +Vale . 
• Aegon's right to the throne is confirmed. +Dorne
• Viserys's marriage to Cersei is planned (and their daughter could marry Aegon if there is still need for Casterly gold) and Jaime is sent from KG. +Westerlands
• Great council decides to make Rhaegar king and send Aerys to the Wall where he is killed by Ned Stark.
• Edmure allows LF to marry Ned's widow.

 

Bob does not have to die. He has to yield. And he could still stay in power. After all, it was Aerys that called for Bob and Ned's heads In fact, all the rebels would be forgiven as the king is mad. Ned, hoster and Jon would return to their respective castles and Lyanna's kid would be raised in the red keep after she dies 

[Angel Eyes]

Was Rhaegar planning a Great Council before or after the Tourney at Harrenhal?

[Haus Berlin]

22 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Was Rhaegar planning a Great Council before or after the Tourney at Harrenhal?

Before Harrenhal.

Maybe my previous post about "routes not taken" is of interest to you, dear friend?

[cpg2016]

On 3/2/2018 at 5:43 PM, Damsel in Distress said:

So if Rhaegar really wanted to call a Great Council it was to overturn his father's decision to pass the crown to Viserys instead of him.  I don't think it's a matter of removing Aerys from the throne.  Only force could do that.  So let's say Aerys is out of the way.  What is the need for a Great Council if Rhaegar was the next in line?  He becomes king automatically.  That is, unless Aerys had already made provisions to replace him with Prince Viserys.  So the purpose of this Great Councial was to overturn the right of Prince Viserys to inherit from their father.

His purpose in calling a Great Council would be to remove his father from power and assume a regency.  Because Aerys II is obviously, dangerously insane, and the biggest worldbuilding error GRRM makes in the entire series is that anyone fights for Aerys to keep his throne.

Additionally, Aerys II cannot legally replace Rhaegar with Viserys.  Even Aegon IV, a more willfully destructive monarch than Aerys (who at least can claim insanity), was unable to set aside his firstborn son, despite detesting him and "loving" Daemon Blackfyre.

Expecting anything rational out of Rhaegar is silly in the first place, though.  He is not a rational actor and is equally as incompetent, dangerous, and unfit to rule as Aerys

[Lucius Lovejoy]

On 3/2/2018 at 4:43 PM, Damsel in Distress said:

Rhaegar was a fool.  He thought he had the advantage at the trident and threw it away to do the gallant thing and fight Robert one on one.  How stupid to let the outcome of single combat decide the war.  Westeros is lucky that fool never sat on the throne.  The will of the Great Council is not going to be enough to remove King Aerys from his throne.  It will take force to do that.   So if Rhaegar really wanted to call a Great Council it was to overturn his father's decision to pass the crown to Viserys instead of him.  I don't think it's a matter of removing Aerys from the throne.  Only force could do that.  So let's say Aerys is out of the way.  What is the need for a Great Council if Rhaegar was the next in line?  He becomes king automatically.  That is, unless Aerys had already made provisions to replace him with Prince Viserys.  So the purpose of this Great Councial was to overturn the right of Prince Viserys to inherit from their father.

Hey @Damsel in Distress I have never read the World book so probably missing a lot of context here but I was always under the impression that Robert and Rhaegar fought within a much larger battle, and it just so happened they found each other to fight one on one, rather than an agreed upon single combat situation in which their armies stood by and watched.  Which is correct?

[asoiaf_reader]

It's the former option. The armies were fighting on.I think they met by chance on the battlefield. Robert must have been angry enough to get through to rhaegar 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Rhaegar's plan ;Turn Aerys  into a figurehead . Renly , Robb and Harry Hardyng becomes heirs. Fire Aerys' small council , marry Cercei , Jon Snow is given to Ashara Dayne . Remove Jaime from the King's Guard .Talk about some farfetched tale about ice zombies and the long night . Allow the King's Guard to marry .

[TMIFairy]

On 2.03.2018 at 10:15 PM, Dead headofMaelysKinslayer said:

Did Rhaegar really think that things will go like this after victory in Trident?

I somehow never connected Rheagar's plan for a Grand Council with the Ruby Ford.

I thought that the Silver Prince planned a Grand Council to depose his father before the Rebellion.  Which might had worked.

But once he had kidnapped Lyanna the chances for that went down to close to zero.

Really, Rheagar, you thought you were entitled to everything? That the Voices speaking to you would make everybody nod along with your maiden-stealling rapist ways?