Heresy 206: of Starks and Walls

[SirArthur]

3 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The high cliffs are the barrier to crossing. Who knows how far north the cliffs go. I don't think this feature is described in detail. If I am missing something, I'm sure you'll find it and bring it to my attention.

I will, one last thing

3 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Westwatch-by-the-Sea is further west than the Shadow Tower and was manned in the past. Jon re-garrisoned it in the current story. 

Westwatch-by-the-bridge

Also the Wildlings can make it down into the Gorge and the NW as well, as they make prisoners down there. 

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

The order of builders provided the masons and carpenters to repair keeps and towers, the miners to dig tunnels and crush stone for roads and footpaths, the woodsmen to clear away new growth wherever the forest pressed too close to the Wall. Once, it was said, they had quarried immense blocks of ice from frozen lakes deep in the haunted forest, dragging them south on sledges so the Wall might be raised ever higher. 

More evidence the Wall was built by whoever controlled territory to the North of it to defend against the South.   If the initial construction were ice and it went up during a war, the quarries would be on the side doing the building.  Of course thousands of years later, they may have switched quarries.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

. This is my own speculation. If the Wall would go all the way to the west, it would need a harbor and longships to stop wildlings crossing the western sea. And because the Wall has no harbor in the west it is clear that it was never build for stoping humans crossing the sea.

There's a direct analogy here with Hadrian's Wall. Technically the eastern end is Wallsend, two or three miles from the mouth of the Tyne, but in practical terms although physically separated from the structure itself the real end of the Wall is the fort and harbour at South Shields, corresponding with Eastwatch, At the western end, however it ends officially at Bowness on Solway. with Carlisle doubling for the Shadow Tower. Beyond there its wide open, with only a chain of forts to stop anybody sailing or rowing south from the Galloway shore 

[SirArthur]

25 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

There's a direct analogy here with Hadrian's Wall. Technically the eastern end is Wallsend, two or three miles from the mouth of the Tyne, but in practical terms although physically separated from the structure itself the real end of the Wall is the fort and harbour at South Shields, corresponding with Eastwatch, At the western end, however it ends officially at Bowness on Solway. with Carlisle doubling for the Shadow Tower. Beyond there its wide open, with only a chain of forts to stop anybody sailing or rowing south from the Galloway shore 

I have found a paper on the subject which corresponds with my impression of the roman coast defence. 

I quote:

Quote

 it is known from the Notitia Dignitatum (Occ xl) that a naval unit, the numerus barcariorum Tigrisiensium, was stationed at Olenacum, which has been fairly confidently identified with Lancaster (Frere 1974, 262, n 20) in the late 4th century, which presupposes berthing facilities for warships. The changing shoals of the Lune estuary may well conceal some substantial works.

Of course Lancaster is prob. too far away from the wall. My bet is on Maryport as the western naval coast defence.

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To summarize, then, sizeable Roman harbours may be anticipated at the legionary fortresses (Caerleon, Chester, and York), at Wallsend (for the Wall garrison), at Maryport and Lancaster (for the north-western defensive system), and at Dover, all of these probably acting as trans-shipment and distribution points for dependent coastal and inland military establishments.

 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

I will, one last thing

Westwatch-by-the-bridge

Also the Wildlings can make it down into the Gorge and the NW as well, as they make prisoners down there. 

Sorry about the name gaff - I'm trying to sneak peaks at Heresy while I'm being swamped by real world work!

The west end of the north looks to be very mountainous, which may in itself be a deterrent. They had the manpower at one time at Westwatch-by-the-BRIDGE, but the high cliffs topographically don't appear to allow for a workable harbor. IMO this doesn't negate the purpose of the Wall as being to keep wildlings confined.

[Melifeather]

I meant to reply to @LynnS ‘s comment about the light shining through the ice wall at the end of the tunnel. If the Wall is a magical construct that built itself, it should repair itself, and it should be difficult to dig permanent tunnels in and through it, because theoretically the openings would magically fill in again.

 

5 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Yes, that's his premise, his understanding, which does not necessarily represent absolute knowledge; to BC's point, even if Jon might be looking at an outward layer of glaciation that had accumulated during the winter, and is subsequently melting, even if Jon is not physically seeing a grid of seams, his expectation is that there are blocks beneath--which does not necessarily mean that the blocks are there.

However, and apparently this cannot be repeated often enough, given that there appears to be an argument where no argument - eg, the staking of positions, the insistence on either/or reads - need exist in the first place, it is perfectly possible for the Wall to simultaneously be the product of magical and physical labor. 

Indeed, it is possible for the Wall to be a structure that is primarily composed of blocks that were placed by men (or giants, or whatever), but with some mystical contribution as well--an unnatural core within the Wall, a sorcerous glaciation that gradually wreathes added blocks, etc.

When people do not speak of engineering, pulleys, slowly quarried ice blocks, and physical labor, this is not some "ancient aliens" thing (at least, it isn't on my part) where these things are being dismissed as implausible, and their absence as an element of discussion is an oversight--it is that these things are already understood by default, and more discussion potential lay in the mystical elements.
 

This seems willfully obtuse; I don't know how a person could, in good faith, believe that I was referencing the sacrifice at Winterfell as directly influencing the Wall--I was referencing it as a relational idea to a broader context in ADWD where the old gods are given a more sinister bent; even if one does not interpret the vision as a ritual sacrifice, Bran (inhabiting the "skin" of the tree) tastes the blood, and that moment occurs within the broader context of Davos' ADWD chapters.

The significance is that, with the dark vaults beneath the earth, the Black Gate, the weirwoods intruding into the Nightfort, the grove of nine faces, the LH seeking the aide of the CotF, and the wards in BR's cave, the net totality of the picture suggests some level of old god magic in the Wall's wards, and given that ritual sacrifice is said to have been an element of old god worship, we might further speculate that the Nightfort was not merely a military structure, but a ritual site.
 

Is the Black Gate dead? Either way, this is overly narrow, and when I speak of sacrifice to the Wall, I mean one might explore every iteration of that concept--which is to say, whatever rituals were performed, perhaps they were at the Black Gate, perhaps they were at the grove of nine weirwoods, perhaps they were at whichever tree is intruding upon the Nightfort, perhaps they were performed as a part of the process of crafting BtB's "foundation blocks," and so forth.
 

Right. We can look at the incomplete series, A Song of Ice and Fire, and explore what sorts of plot developments and revelations are in-store for the reader in future volumes. We can register on the A Song of Ice and Fire discussion forums, and go into the thread Heresy - the very title of which suggests that this is a thread that welcomes heterodoxical discussion of A Song of Ice and Fire - and proceed to exchange those explorations with others. A strange thing to observe aloud, but absolutely correct.

 

I wanted to reply to your assertion that blood sacrifice was part of old God worship. I think that may be a false conclusion. Blood sacrifice is needed to work magic which in itself is not typically a standard part of their worship. The Children understand that magic is a doubled bladed sword without a hilt. It’s risky at best, and definitely not a part of everyday worship.

 

4 hours ago, SirArthur said:

The order of builders provided the masons and carpenters to repair keeps and towers, the miners to dig tunnels and crush stone for roads and footpaths, the woodsmen to clear away new growth wherever the forest pressed too close to the Wall. Once, it was said, they had quarried immense blocks of ice from frozen lakes deep in the haunted forest, dragging them south on sledges so the Wall might be raised ever higher. Those days were centuries gone, however; now, it was all they could do to ride the Wall from Eastwatch to the Shadow Tower, watching for cracks or signs of melt and making what repairs they could.

 

I really don't know how else I should tell you that the Wall has massive holes and the lack of a western harbor proofs that it was not build for Wildling control.

1. The Wall ends at the Shadow Tower. Not at the western sea:

The order of builders provided the masons and carpenters to repair keeps and towers, the miners to dig tunnels and crush stone for roads and footpaths, the woodsmen to clear away new growth wherever the forest pressed too close to the Wall. Once, it was said, they had quarried immense blocks of ice from frozen lakes deep in the haunted forest, dragging them south on sledges so the Wall might be raised ever higher. Those days were centuries gone, however; now, it was all they could do to ride the Wall from Eastwatch to the Shadow Tower, watching for cracks or signs of melt and making what repairs they could.

2. It can be penetrated in the east and the west

The Others take them all, thought Jon, as he watched them scramble up the steep slope of the ridge and vanish beneath the trees. It would not be the first time wildlings had scaled the Wall, not even the hundred and first. The patrols stumbled on climbers two or three times a year, and rangers sometimes came on the broken corpses of those who had fallen. Along the east coast the raiders most often built boats to slip across the Bay of Seals. In the west they would descend into the black depths of the Gorge to make their way around the Shadow Tower. But in between the only way to defeat the Wall was to go over it, 

3. You need longships to stop the wildlings from crossing the sea

Hother wanted ships. "There's wildlings stealing down from the north, more than I've ever seen before. They cross the Bay of Seals in little boats and wash up on our shores. The crows in Eastwatch are too few to stop them, and they go to ground quick as weasels. It's longships we need, aye, and strong men to sail them. The Greatjon took too many. Half our harvest is gone to seed for want of arms to swing the scythes."

 

4. This is my own speculation. If the Wall would go all the way to the west, it would need a harbor and longships to stop wildlings crossing the western sea. And because the Wall has no harbor in the west it is clear that it was never build for stoping humans crossing the sea.

There are no reports of wildlings escaping from the west in boats, nor by Westwatch-by-the-BRIDGE. The closest mention is to scale the gorge and try to go around the Shadow Tower, and I’m going to take a jab at speculating it’s because the physical features of the area are more favorable to climbers.

[Matthew.]

32 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I wanted to reply to your assertion that blood sacrifice was part of old God worship. I think that may be a false conclusion. Blood sacrifice is needed to work magic which in itself is not typically a standard part of their worship. The Children understand that magic is a doubled bladed sword without a hilt. It’s risky at best, and definitely not a part of everyday worship.

I don't disagree, particularly in that we don't know what differences (if any) there may have been between the way the FM worshiped the old gods and the way that the CotF worshiped the old gods.

Nonetheless, as you note, sacrifice appears to effectively produce magical results in Planetos, so there does tend to be an intersection between sacrifice and worship in some of the religions we are presented, which essentially leads back to the same question: if Melisandre is correct (and perhaps she isn't) that the lore that raised the Wall and the spells locked in its ice were "great," was the price that was paid also great? 

It might also be noted that sacrifice need not always be of the visceral sort; if we take the Faceless Men as an example, there is no standard price or currency for hiring a Faceless Man, save that the price paid will be high. For the Faceless Men themselves, the thing one is expected to sacrifice to join the priesthood is one's sense of self, though Arya appears to be skirting the rules.

With that in mind, it may be that the act of joining the Watch once (say, pre-Night's King era) carried a bit more magic heft, that speaking ones oaths in the eyes of the gods was important--Sam literally passes through the "maw" of the Black Gate after speaking a vow.

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The west end of the north looks to be very mountainous, which may in itself be a deterrent. They had the manpower at one time at Westwatch-by-the-BRIDGE, but the high cliffs topographically don't appear to allow for a workable harbor. IMO this doesn't negate the purpose of the Wall as being to keep wildlings confined.

But again and again and again, whilst the Watch have latterly patrolled the Wall and beyond, interacting [not always violently] with the Wildlings that is not according, to recent history or distant legend, why it was built.

Consider the Wildlings or Free-folk. They live in scattered communities and clans and far from being descendents of the Ironborn or any other "nation", their origins are diverse; as is very heavily emphasised in Jon's POVs when he is with them. There are the Thenns; the Hornfoots; the Cannibal Clans of the Great Ice River and half a hundred more - without even thinking about the Giants. We've speculated in times past that they may have their origin in the survivors of kingdoms destroyed or at least abandoned by their kings in the Long Night, but be that as it may they disdain kings and confederations and Kings Beyond the Wall* are exceptional and massed incursions into the green lands exceptionally rare.

A Wall might be justified, but not one 800 feet high and in military terms a very porous wall at that. As Mormont bitterly complains, the Watch has been dealing with the Wildlings for so long that they have forgotten their true purpose.

* An idle thought, but why that designation? To the Free Folk "Beyond the Wall" is south of it, in the Seven Kingdoms

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

But again and again and again, whilst the Watch have latterly patrolled the Wall and beyond, interacting [not always violently] with the Wildlings that is not according, to recent history or distant legend, why it was built.

Consider the Wildlings or Free-folk. They live in scattered communities and clans and far from being descendents of the Ironborn or any other "nation", their origins are diverse; as is very heavily emphasised in Jon's POVs when he is with them. There are the Thenns; the Hornfoots; the Cannibal Clans of the Great Ice River and half a hundred more - without even thinking about the Giants. We've speculated in times past that they may have their origin in the survivors of kingdoms destroyed or at least abandoned by their kings in the Long Night, but be that as it may they disdain kings and confederations and Kings Beyond the Wall* are exceptional and massed incursions into the green lands exceptionally rare.

A Wall might be justified, but not one 800 feet high and in military terms a very porous wall at that. As Mormont bitterly complains, the Watch has been dealing with the Wildlings for so long that they have forgotten their true purpose.

* An idle thought, but why that designation? To the Free Folk "Beyond the Wall" is south of it, in the Seven Kingdoms

Have you ever heard of Mitochondrial Eve? 

 

Quote

 

In 1987, a group of genet­icists published a surprising study in the journal Nature.­ The­ researchers examined the mitochondrial DNA(mtDNA) taken from 147 people across all of today's major racial groups. These researchers found that the lineage of all people alive today falls on one of two branches in humanity's family tree. One of these branches consists of nothing but African lineage, the other contains all other groups, including some African lineage.

Even more impressive, the geneticists concluded that every person on Earth right now can trace his or her lineage back to a single common female ancestor who lived around 200,000 years ago. Because one entire branch of human lineage is of African origin and the other contains African lineage as well, the study's authors concluded Africa is the place where this woman lived. The scientists named this common female ancestor Mitochondrial Eve.

 

 

Likewise, just because the wildlings have various tribes living in scattered communities doesn't mean they aren't related genetically. They have been there for thousands of years.

 

 

[Melifeather]

I was thinking on Old Nan's tale about the Nights King being a brother to the Lord of Winterfell. I recall some years back GRRM working on a novella about the Wolves of Winterfell, or some name similar - basically a story of an ailing Lord of Winterfell with only female heirs. This is the Bael story. If a wildling Bael impregnated a Stark female there would exist a way for the Nights King and the Lord of Winterfell to be bastard brothers.

[LynnS]

21 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The victory over the Nights King and his inhuman allies can be interpreted as a victory for Fire over Ice. What the oath can also be interpreted as is one sworn by those who tend the night fires on the walls of the red temples, guarding them as they watch for the dawn. There may no longer be an actual connection after all these years, but the similaries and the references to walls may point to a forgotten origin

This is making a lot of sense to me.

[Melifeather]

I agree that symbolically the Nights Watch does seem to be a victory of fire over ice for all of the reasons BC provides, what bothers me though is the current lopsided-ness of men who are followers of the Faith versus followers of the old gods. It would appear we can blame the Faith for the deterioration of the Watch's numbers. They've worked towards the elimination of dragons and magic, and they poo-poo real threats as just "snarks and grumkins". What's up with that? Are they as a group just so far removed from the Others that they've never believed the stories, or is there something else going on?

[Frey family reunion]

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

But again and again and again, whilst the Watch have latterly patrolled the Wall and beyond, interacting [not always violently] with the Wildlings that is not according, to recent history or distant legend, why it was built.

Consider the Wildlings or Free-folk. They live in scattered communities and clans and far from being descendents of the Ironborn or any other "nation", their origins are diverse; as is very heavily emphasised in Jon's POVs when he is with them. There are the Thenns; the Hornfoots; the Cannibal Clans of the Great Ice River and half a hundred more - without even thinking about the Giants. We've speculated in times past that they may have their origin in the survivors of kingdoms destroyed or at least abandoned by their kings in the Long Night, but be that as it may they disdain kings and confederations and Kings Beyond the Wall* are exceptional and massed incursions into the green lands exceptionally rare.

A Wall might be justified, but not one 800 feet high and in military terms a very porous wall at that. As Mormont bitterly complains, the Watch has been dealing with the Wildlings for so long that they have forgotten their true purpose.

* An idle thought, but why that designation? To the Free Folk "Beyond the Wall" is south of it, in the Seven Kingdoms

Why have an eight hundred foot wall for any purpose?

Is a wall of that height needed for White Walkers?  They appear to be the size of a man.  If they can turn into air I would expect that they could still travel either over or around the physical barrier the Wall creates.  Woukdn’t a magically warded wall be just as effective against the White Walkers if it was much shorter?

[Black Crow]

12 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Why have an eight hundred foot wall for any purpose?

Is a wall of that height needed for White Walkers?  They appear to be the size of a man.  If they can turn into air I would expect that they could still travel either over or around the physical barrier the Wall creates.  Woukdn’t a magically warded wall be just as effective against the White Walkers if it was much shorter?

 

I can recall a theory aired by someone on heresy a very time ago, suggesting that it was really a magical barrier to Winter or rather the magic of Ice and that the physical Wall which we see was in effect a glacier piled up against that invisible wall of magic

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Have you ever heard of Mitochondrial Eve? 

I have indeed, but even on the most improbably long timescales offered in the story there isn't the time for the Ironborn to multiply and diversify into the multitude of very different peoples known as the Free Folk

[Melifeather]

54 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Why have an eight hundred foot wall for any purpose?

Is a wall of that height needed for White Walkers?  They appear to be the size of a man.  If they can turn into air I would expect that they could still travel either over or around the physical barrier the Wall creates.  Woukdn’t a magically warded wall be just as effective against the White Walkers if it was much shorter?

I agree. The height of the Wall should not matter unless you're trying to discourage climbers. A magical barrier should block anything magical so in that instance height shouldn't matter. The fact that the Wall is so tall suggests that it was built to keep people in.

 

36 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I have indeed, but even on the most improbably long timescales offered in the story there isn't the time for the Ironborn to multiply and diversify into the multitude of very different peoples known as the Free Folk

Why can't they just be various families that staked claim to specific areas? The Ironborn have many last names on the Iron Islands.

[Brad Stark]

59 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Why have an eight hundred foot wall for any purpose?

Is a wall of that height needed for White Walkers?  They appear to be the size of a man.  If they can turn into air I would expect that they could still travel either over or around the physical barrier the Wall creates.  Woukdn’t a magically warded wall be just as effective against the White Walkers if it was much shorter?

Imagine an army of 100,000 wights.  They still might be able to go around or over, especially if no one is there to fight them, but it will majorly slow them down.

Going the other way, suppose the Children want to keep civilization out.  The Wall is a major barrier to armies,  supplies and trade, even without anyone stationed there.

The first men were not seafaring folk, so the Wall prevents large scale groups and trade.  Btw, does this conflict with the story of Bran the Shipwright?

[LynnS]

5 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Imagine an army of 100,000 wights.  They still might be able to go around or over, especially if no one is there to fight them, but it will majorly slow them down.

Ice preserves.  I can imagine Jon raising an army of 100,000 dead crows from the crypts and lichyards from the castles along the Wall.

"the crows are wight as Snow"...

[SirArthur]

10 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Going the other way, suppose the Children want to keep civilization out.  The Wall is a major barrier to armies,  supplies and trade, even without anyone stationed there.

It's a reasonable explanation for Hardhome. But I'm not sure about the consequences regarding fire and CotF. Sadly King Aerys II's new wall plans are courtesy of "The World of Ice and Fire". 

We know that the Wall is melting here and there and this would certainly require a reaction from the Others. But it does not align with our cycle of 8000 years and the Long Night. 

[Matthew.]

34 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The fact that the Wall is so tall suggests that it was built to keep people in.

 

32 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Going the other way, suppose the Children want to keep civilization out.

Responding to both of these, because they both touch upon ideas I consider related to the Wall as well; if one looks at the terrain in Pact terms, the Wall might also be read as an abrupt dividing line between the Haunted Forest (CotF land) and the realms of men.

The humanity that is to be found north of the Wall, particularly those living within the Haunted Forest, appears to be a scattered series of small villages, such as Whitetree--whose massive heart tree might be benevolently read as "old and well-tended," or ominously read as "well fed in sacrifice," depending on one's point of view.

In any case, it may be that for the kingdoms of the First Men, the Wall served as a visual warning: "Your civilization is not welcome here, and if you cross this line, there will be no wards to protect you." 

For the poor saps that were unfortunate enough to find themselves penned in on the wrong side of the Wall, they may have been faced with the choice of either "getting right with the gods" or clearing out of the Haunted Forest to take up residence in places like the Thenns, the Frozen Shore, the Ice Rivers, etc.