Heresy 206: of Starks and Walls

[Melifeather]

13 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

But, just to play devil’s advocate here, if BR was causing a time loop similar to that in Dr. Strange, then wouldn’t it contain the same characters over and over again? It would be the people that should be looping and not their actions. 

 

In the Dr Strange movie time still moved inside the loop, just very slowly. In Westeros the time loops move even slower as suggested by the extended seasons. For example a 9-year long winter may in fact just be one season dragged out, but rather than reverting back to the beginning of that one long winter - time continues, so next might be a 9-year long spring season, then an 8-year long summer season, followed by an 8-year long fall season. The cycle would be one year and it wouldn't repeat for basically a generation.

 

11 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I think that's a pretty fair point, everywhere we look magic has been decaying and decaying for a long time - until now. Why should the magic of the Wall be any different

 

If magic is growing stronger would the Wall be growing stronger also? Does it appear that the Wall is growing or is it slowly disintegrating? IMO the Wall appears to be dissipating out through the underground tunnels and up into Winterfell - manifested as a winter snow storm that some readers have referred to as "emanating" from Winterfell itself. How would you explain the phenomenon? 

 

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Again this comes back to the whole question of what the Wall actually is and why. Despite Feather's valiant efforts to argue otherwise, the Wall was never built to stop humans; latterly the Watch has focused on the Wildlings but its been made very clear from the very beginning that it had a different purpose. 

The real question, as I said earlier, is whether the Wall was indeed raised to stop the Others - as legend has it and despite all the contradictions, or whether it was built by somebody else entirely and the Watch are just camping out in the ruins of something they don't understand and have created those legends, that mythos, to explain it.

This has been characterised as a conflict between darkness and light, between night and day, as demonstrated by the Red Lot and their watchers on the walls, so it seems logical that the Nightfort was so named either because it was a place of darkness guarding the black gate, or because it was a bastion against the night - although in that case I would have expected a reference to the Light. Either way the use of the definite article and the name itself emphasises its original singularity.

Nights King? That he may be the door [which Bran only thinks looks like weirwood] was what I suggested a long time ago.A lhough we need to remember that the key to the door is the [Rh'llorist?] oath, the implication that the salt water which drops on Bran was a tear seems important

The Wall was built to stop the Others, and I still assert that the Others were/are the Ironborn. Supposedly the Others came before the Andals, and while the Ironborn are referred to as First Men, the Citadel thinks they came from somewhere west of Westeros. So, not First Men and not Andal...I guess they're "other". 

No where in the text does it say that the Wall has always been there, nor has a magical force field ever been referred to. The text says the First Men and the Children defeated the Others and then the Wall was created to contain them.

The references to fire doesn't mean that the Nights Watch oaths are connected to "the red lot" Rh'llorists. IMO it's a connection to the fire magic used to defeat the Others when dragons were summoned.

The salt tear indicates the connection to the Ironborn, the sea, and their Drowned God.

[redriver]

On Ser Shadrich possibly being Howland Reed,has anyone collated the known supports on here?

My search efforts have yielded little....

[Frey family reunion]

4 minutes ago, redriver said:

On Ser Shadrich possibly being Howland Reed,has anyone collated the known supports on here?

My search efforts have yielded little....

If Howland is really running around in disguise I think there are four possibilities (I'll put them in order of what I think is most likely to least likely):

1. High Sparrow. 

2. Tom O' Sevenstreams

3. Shadrich

4. Septon Meribald (this is a real dark horse.  Unlike the other three he is not described as small, but is described as being stooped over.  So I suppose it is possible that if Howland is operating under a glamor he could be disguised as a taller person stooped over).

The High Sparrow has been debated enough on this board. 

Tom O'Sevenstreams is interesting because he is the most stereotypical of a "green man" type character out of folklore.  I also find it intriguing that Howland Reed is allegedly descended from the "Marsh Kings" of the Neck.  There was a book by Walter Hodges back in the lates 60's about King Alfred the Great titled the Marsh King.  I haven't gotten around to reading it yet, but I assume that he associates this title to King Alfred for the time that King Alfred hid out in the Sommerset Marshes from the Vikings.   Anyways, old King Alfred was known for traveling in disguises, having once infiltrated a Danish camp disguised as a wandering minstrel.

 I'd put Shadrich a distant third behind these two unless he's operating under a glamor because his hair color seems wrong for being the father of Meera and Jojen.  I've also become really enamored with Shadrich being a descendant of House Darklyn, which was discussed in the previous Heresy. 

 

[Frey family reunion]

On ‎3‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 1:21 PM, Black Crow said:

As to my own thoughts, No, its not so high as it is to interpose a physical barrier to armies. The Romans managed perfectly well with 10 foot of stone. Overkill doesn't even begin to describe it, No matter how high you build it some fool will always climb it. A 10 foot wall might obviously be easier to climb but its still good enough to hinder armies and force them to go around or to open it while the defenders quite lierally call for the cavalry. Taking it higher than the Roman wall might or might not increase its effectiveness but the law of diminishing returns will soon set in where the cost in men and resources far outweighs the benefits.

No, I've thought for some time and increasing think that the Wall is nothing to do with Bob the Builder or with the Watch but is not only magic but is much much older than we think. As I suggested before it may turn out that it is indeed 8,000 years old, or even older, but predates the First Men let alone the Watch.

There is a much more mundane possibility as well.  The Wall is as tall as it is, because it has been manned for thousands of years by a force that has nothing better to do other than continue to make the Wall taller and taller.  Think of it as a mass case of obsessive compulsive disorder lasting thousands of years.  We have a huge force of people waiting for thousands of years for the return of the Others, but the Others never come.  So the commanders have to do something to keep their recruits busy and focused at a task.  Thus, they make them continue to build the Wall taller and taller, and as generations come and go, the height of the Wall reinforces their belief of how dangerous the threat north of the Wall is.  After all it would have to be for their predecessors to have built a Wall that high.

[SirArthur]

Howland Reed as Lord of Greywater Watch really has enough to do right now. His Lord Paramount has been slaughtered with his army next door and Moat Cailin taken and then taken by Bolton rebels. That is a situation where no Lord has time to play High Septon or travel in disguise through the land.  

Even if he was part of the rebellion he had no time for such games. ^^

[redriver]

11 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

If Howland is really running around in disguise I think there are four possibilities (I'll put them in order of what I think is most likely to least likely):

1. High Sparrow. 

2. Tom O' Sevenstreams

3. Shadrich

4. Septon Meribald (this is a real dark horse.  Unlike the other three he is not described as small, but is described as being stooped over.  So I suppose it is possible that if Howland is operating under a glamor he could be disguised as a taller person stooped over).

The High Sparrow has been debated enough on this board. 

Tom O'Sevenstreams is interesting because he is the most stereotypical of a "green man" type character out of folklore.  I also find it intriguing that Howland Reed is allegedly descended from the "Marsh Kings" of the Neck.  There was a book by Walter Hodges back in the lates 60's about King Alfred the Great titled the Marsh King.  I haven't gotten around to reading it yet, but I assume that he associates this title to King Alfred for the time that King Alfred hid out in the Sommerset Marshes from the Vikings.   Anyways, old King Alfred was known for traveling in disguises, having once infiltrated a Danish camp disguised as a wandering minstrel.

 I'd put Shadrich a distant third behind these two unless he's operating under a glamor because his hair color seems wrong for being the father of Meera and Jojen.  I've also become really enamored with Shadrich being a descendant of House Darklyn, which was discussed in the previous Heresy. 

 

Ok.I'll get my little typy finger out and post something by morning.

[Matthew.]

7 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

There is a much more mundane possibility as well.  The Wall is as tall as it is, because it has been manned for thousands of years by a force that has nothing better to do other than continue to make the Wall taller and taller.  Think of it as a mass case of obsessive compulsive disorder lasting thousands of years.  We have a huge force of people waiting for thousands of years for the return of the Others, but the Others never come.  So the commanders have to do something to keep their recruits busy and focused at a task.  Thus, they make them continue to build the Wall taller and taller, and as generations come and go, the height of the Wall reinforces their belief of how dangerous the threat north of the Wall is.  After all it would have to be for their predecessors to have built a Wall that high.

I agree, and Mormont speaks of LCs aspiring to leave the Wall higher than they found it as an end unto itself--so it's not as though there was some goal of 100 feet, 300 feet, or 700 feet because they needed a specific height for a specific purpose; it just seems like growth for the sake of growth.

[Melifeather]

Regarding Shadrich - I'm telling you guys, it's the time loops that are making you think Shadrich is Howland!

For the sake of illustration lets say each season (winter, spring, summer, fall) lasts 9 years each, which would make each time loop a cycle that lasts 36 years long. (36 years = 1 time loop)

Each season has people repeating the same events from a previous time loop, therefore Shadrich is repeating Howland, while Sansa is repeating Lyanna. (Arya is also repeating Lyanna, but I don't want this to get too complicated)

To continue - Davos repeated Ned's journey to White Harbor, Sandor Clegane repeated Arthur Dayne's footsteps through the Riverlands, while Darkstar and Myrcella along with the rest of Arianne's group repeated Gerold Hightower and the attack on Elia by Kingwood Brotherhood.

"Little" Mycella is a repeat of Cersei when Cersei was younger and she attempted to supplant first Elia, then Lyanna, as Rhaegar's bride and Robert's respectively. 

Circling back to Shadrich - he told Brienne that he was looking for Sansa, while Brienne was looking for both Sansa and Arya. Arya already repeated Lyanna's defense of Howland against the three squires when she saved Jaqen, Biter, and Rorge. She can also be said to repeat Lyanna when she threw Joffrey's sword (the prince) into the stream when she defended the Butcher's boy. This could be a reversal of Rhaegar's butchering in the Trident. Arya even looked in the Trident for the rubies.

Recognizing that the time loops exist is the key to solving many of the mysteries.

[Frey family reunion]

7 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Howland Reed as Lord of Greywater Watch really has enough to do right now. His Lord Paramount has been slaughtered with his army next door and Moat Cailin taken and then taken by Bolton rebels. That is a situation where no Lord has time to play High Septon or travel in disguise through the land.  

Even if he was part of the rebellion he had no time for such games. ^^

But on the other hand, this isn't a game, it's guerilla warfare.  Which is what the Crannogmen are known for.  They are sneaks, they don't fight fair. 

The High Septon is assembling an army under the noses of the Lannisters using the religious beliefs of the peasants.  And in the process commits a humiliating revenge on Cersei Lannister one of those responsible for the death of his paramount.  Meanwhile Tom is joined up with another guerilla force first organized by Lord Stark, which is striking at Tywin's armies and supply lines.  Now Tom has positioned himself into the middle of Lannister forces occupying Riverrun.  And Shadrich is attempting to find Eddard's oldest daughter, and the apparent heir to Winterfell.

If you look at the legend of King Alfred the Great, it ties in.  Alfred's realm was overrun by Danish forces.  He gathered an army and used guerilla tactics to fight back.  In the midst of this King Alfred would go forth into the realm in disguise, where he could gather intelligence.

 

 

 

[Melifeather]

13 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

There is a much more mundane possibility as well.  The Wall is as tall as it is, because it has been manned for thousands of years by a force that has nothing better to do other than continue to make the Wall taller and taller.  Think of it as a mass case of obsessive compulsive disorder lasting thousands of years.  We have a huge force of people waiting for thousands of years for the return of the Others, but the Others never come.  So the commanders have to do something to keep their recruits busy and focused at a task.  Thus, they make them continue to build the Wall taller and taller, and as generations come and go, the height of the Wall reinforces their belief of how dangerous the threat north of the Wall is.  After all it would have to be for their predecessors to have built a Wall that high.

 

I like this as well. The part they forgot was that the reason why they didn't see any white walkers and wights is because they forgot they sealed up magic and warded it with spells, and the reason why they've returned is because the warding either deteriorated or was removed, and magic escaped back out into the world.

[SirArthur]

19 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

  In the midst of this King Alfred would go forth into the realm in disguise, where he could gather intelligence.

Hmm. Shouldn't he be at the Twins or in Winterfell then ? Something more local and closer. Or Seagard. Flint's finger. Even White Harbor is more practical than KL.

 

edit: maybe Winterfell is too far. But Barrowton isn't.

[Frey family reunion]

12 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Hmm. Shouldn't he be at the Twins or in Winterfell then ? Something more local and closer. Or Seagard. Flint's finger. Even White Harbor is more practical than KL.

 

edit: maybe Winterfell is too far. But Barrowton isn't.

But King's Landing is the heart of the enemy (the heart of the lion).  While Riverrun is biggest Stark ally south of the Neck, now under enemy control.  If he is Tom, then he has already been gaining a measure of revenge on the Freys. 

Despite technically being a part of the North, the North appears to be unknown territory for the Crannogmen.  In fact, Meera and Jojen's arrival at Winterfell seems to be the first time any Reed in recent memory has traveled there.  However, the Crannogmen seem very well known to the Freys, which seems to imply that they have had much more contact within the Riverlands.  So it wouldn't surprise me that this is where they would start their resistance. 

[Melifeather]

25 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

But on the other hand, this isn't a game, it's guerilla warfare.  Which is what the Crannogmen are known for.  They are sneaks, they don't fight fair. 

The High Septon is assembling an army under the noses of the Lannisters using the religious beliefs of the peasants.  And in the process commits a humiliating revenge on Cersei Lannister one of those responsible for the death of his paramount.  Meanwhile Tom is joined up with another guerilla force first organized by Lord Stark, which is striking at Tywin's armies and supply lines.  Now Tom has positioned himself into the middle of Lannister forces occupying Riverrun.  And Shadrich is attempting to find Eddard's oldest daughter, and the apparent heir to Winterfell.

If you look at the legend of King Alfred the Great, it ties in.  Alfred's realm was overrun by Danish forces.  He gathered an army and used guerilla tactics to fight back.  In the midst of this King Alfred would go forth into the realm in disguise, where he could gather intelligence.

 

 

 

I don't disagree with this, just pointing out that because of the time loops the Brotherhood Without Banners is repeating the events of the Kingswood Brotherhood. The BWB abducted Arya, much like I suspect the KB, or a group disguised as them, abducted Lyanna. Nobody really knows what happened to Arya. WE know what Arya is up to, but the outside world thinks she's married to Ramsay, and we learned through Cersei that Petyr Baelish dressed up a "steward's whelp" to be Arya, but we know her as Jeyne Poole. IMO this reversal happened with Lyanna and Ashara as well, and was repeated yet again with Myrcella and her handmaiden, Rosamund.

If these time loops and the most recent reversal of time results in putting things "right" in the eyes of the Children and Bloodraven, then I can see how Howland may be involved and in disguise.

[SirArthur]

6 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

So it wouldn't surprise me that this is where they would start their resistance. 

I agree. And that is the reason why I believe he is not the High Sparrow. 

[Black Crow]

We really know so very little about Howland Reed that its difficult to pronounce on possible appearances in disguise although I remain convinced that the fledermaus clue assigns a different role to Ser Shadrich.

What I would say anent Howland Reed is that although he's advertised to us as a Stark loyalist - and who are we to doubt it - I strongly suspect that's not his primary role [or allegiance] in all of this.

What we do know, according to his daughter, is that there is a connection to the Isle of Faces, and the Green Men, who GRRM has said have their part to play.

His son has green dreams

Both his children introduce to us an oath about Ice and Fire which seems very significant

He appears willing to sacrifice his children to get Bran to the Cave of Skulls

Now what exactly he's doing I don't know but I do think that it centres around Bran rather than playing at King Alfred - or for that matter waiting for the right moment to step forward and lay his affydavey as to which cabbage leaf Jon Snow was found under.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

I agree. And that is the reason why I believe he is not the High Sparrow. 

But where is the High Sparrow coming from?

Quote

The sparrow is the humblest and most common of birds, as we are the humblest and most common of men."  The septon had a lean sharp face and a short beard, grizzled grey and brown.  His thin hair was pulled back and knotted behind his head, and his feet were bare and black, gnarled and hard as tree roots.  "These are the bones of holy men, murdered for their faith.  They served the Seven even unto death.  Some starved, some were tortured.  Septs have been despoiled, maidens and mothers raped by godless men and demon worshippers.  even silent sisters have been molested.  Our Mother Above cries out in her anguish.  It is time for all anointed knights to forsake their worldly masters and defend our Holy Faith.  Come with us to the city, if you love the Seven."

Quote

Ser Creighton lifed one cheek off the saddle to scratch his arse.  "What sort of man would slay a holy septon?"

Brienne knew what sort.  Near Maidenpool, she recalled, the Brave Companions had strung a septon up by his heels from the limb of a tree and used his corpse for archery practice.  She wondered if his bones were piled up in that wayn with all the rest.

So Brienne wonders if this group of sparrows (the leader of which would later become the High Septon) had previously come from Maidenpool.

Now if you look at the map, follow the Green Fork.  I say the Green Fork, because we know that Howland Reed was familiar with it. 

Quote

"It was the green men he meant to find.  So he donned a shirt sewn with bronze scales, like mine, took up a leathern shield and a three-pronged spear, like mine, and paddled a little skin boat down the Green Fork."

So let's say that after Robb sent his emissaries to contact Howland, Howland traveled back with them through the Green Fork, sneaking past the Twins ultimately traveling to Saltpans, the scene of a massacre of the war.  They pose as septons, encouraging survivors to take up arms and travel to King's Landing.  They then go through Maidenpool the place of another massacre, and continues to stir up the local peasants.  Then to Duskendale, scene of yet another massacre.  And then they come upon Brienne and her companions on the road from Duskendale to Rosby.  And once in King's Landing he uses the support he generated from his travels through the war torn Riverlands to become the new High Septon, where he uses his influence and Cersei's lack of judgment to start arming an army in the middle of King's Landing.

I'm not saying I totally buy this, but I think this is a definite possibility.

[Frey family reunion]

8 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

We really know so very little about Howland Reed that its difficult to pronounce on possible appearances in disguise although I remain convinced that the fledermaus clue assigns a different role to Ser Shadrich.

What I would say anent Howland Reed is that although he's advertised to us as a Stark loyalist - and who are we to doubt it - I strongly suspect that's not his primary role [or allegiance] in all of this.

What we do know, according to his daughter, is that there is a connection to the Isle of Faces, and the Green Men, who GRRM has said have their part to play.

His son has green dreams

Both his children introduce to us an oath about Ice and Fire which seems very significant

He appears willing to sacrifice his children to get Bran to the Cave of Skulls

Now what exactly he's doing I don't know but I do think that it centres around Bran rather than playing at King Alfred - or for that matter waiting for the right moment to step forward and lay his affydavey as to which cabbage leaf Jon Snow was found under.

Howland playing King Alfred and Howland acting as an agent of the Green Men don't have to necessarily be exclusive.  Howland uses his children to ferry Bran up north, leaves the Neck in the hands of the Crannogmen, while Howland and perhaps other agents of the Green Men wage guerilla warfare in the south.

There is at least one passage that makes me think that it's possible that Beric and some of his companions may have made a visit to the Isle of Faces:

Quote

They learned that Lord Beric had ten starvelings with him, or else a hundred mounted knights; that he had ridden west, or north, or south; that he had crossed the lake in a boat; that he was strong as an aurochhs or weak from the bloody flux.

The lake in question is the God's eye.  And it would have been after this trip, that Lord Beric announces who his allegiance is to:

Quote

"The king is dead," the scarecrow knight admitted, "but we are still king's men, though the royal banner we bore was lost at the Mummer's Ford when your brother's butchers fell upon us."  He touched his breast with a fist.  "Robert is slain, but his realm remains.  And we defend her."

"Her?" The Hound snorted.  "Is she your mother, Dondarrion? or your whore?"

 

[SirArthur]

20 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I'm not saying I totally buy this, but I think this is a definite possibility.

It is. At the same time it is very odd for the Lord not to abort the mission once it is clear the situation has changed. It is not like we haven't these type of missions in the story. We have the brotherhood without banners, we have the Night's Watch. But the brotherhood is stuck, they can't go back as Cercei is a merciless enemy. Howland Reed can go back.

[Melifeather]

8 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

It is. At the same time it is very odd for the Lord not to abort the mission once it is clear the situation has changed. It is not like we haven't these type of missions in the story. We have the brotherhood without banners, we have the Night's Watch. But the brotherhood is stuck, they can't go back as Cercei is a merciless enemy. Howland Reed can go back.

Exactly - who are the heroes and who are the outlaws? Like Beric's group - they were sent by the King's Hand to bring the outlaw Brave Companions to justice, but then with the changing of kings THEY became the outlaws.

[Melifeather]

The High Sparrow is part of the Faith's agenda with whatever game they're playing. They overthrew fire magic and placed an Andal king on the throne, only for the king's queen and sons to corrupt their cause, so the Faith is stepping in to remake the realm in their vision.