Heresy 206: of Starks and Walls

[redriver]

3 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I once read a theory that there are firewyrms in Westeros--that they carved out the tunnels and hollow hills, that Hardhome was their work, and that Joramun's Horn is a summoning horn that calls the "sleeping giants beneath the earth." 

Incidentally, while I think Euron's horn is indeed a Valyrian horn, I wonder whether or not he is also in possession of the aforementioned kraken horn (or that the "kraken horn" is a Valyrian horn); I'm thinking of this passage from the Forsaken

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He showed the world his blood eye now, dark and terrible. Clad head to heel in scale as dark as onyx, he sat upon a mound of blackened skulls as dwarfs capered round his feet and a forest burned behind him…

Then Euron lifted a great horn to his lips and blew, and dragons and krakens and sphinxes came at his command and bowed before him. 

I think it more likely that the above passage refers to individuals/factions rather than literal creatures, but that may relate to some of the alternative reads you raised of the "kraken horn." The Night's King binding his brothers with sorcery might also fall under this speculative umbrella.

No real indication that Euron has this kraken horn,if it exists.Sallador reckons Lord Celtigar- (not Velaryon as I said earlier)-has it.

Though as it's a pirate rumour, Euron is likely to have heard it.

I would agree Aeron's dream is more about symbolism than individuals..

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It's reminiscent of Dany's HOTU vision,also evening shade fuelled.The blackened skulls represent the dead and sacrificed;the male and female dwarves the kings and queens warring and fighting over Westeros.The "shadow in womans form with hands of pale fire" may represent a comet-the original one that caused the Long Night or one on the way.The red comet is mentioned at least once in the chapter.

 

[Brad Stark]

Could it be the same horn?  Velaryon is just as likely to have a dragon binding horn as anyone else, and likely no one summoned a kraken anytime recently. 

[redriver]

4 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Could it be the same horn?  Velaryon is just as likely to have a dragon binding horn as anyone else, and likely no one summoned a kraken anytime recently. 

It could be.I recall from awoiaf that an ancient Ironborn king summoned krakens to defeat his enemy in a naval battle.Unfortunately they didn't turn up.

However I think it likely that Euron has what purports to be a dragon horn.He's convinced Aeron he's been to Valyria...

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...by wearing a Valyrian Steel suit of armour.Again,if that's what it is.

 

[Matthew.]

6 hours ago, redriver said:

No real indication that Euron has this kraken horn,if it exists.Sallador reckons Lord Celtigar- (not Velaryon as I said earlier)-has it.

There's no real indication that Euron, specifically, has it, but there may be signs that it has been stolen and is in use: Tyrion hears a report of a kraken pulling down an Ibbenese whaler off the Fingers, and...

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Arianne hears of kraken attacking galleys around the Broken Arm of Dorne--the latter report also coming coupled with a rumor of a pirate king styling himself the "Lord of the Waters."

Given that Saan specifically wanted to raid Celtigar's lands, he seems a good candidate to have stolen Celitgar's Horn, though I found the passage with Euron worth mentioning in the context of the conversation.

10 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I like this. Do you recall if the vision of Euron was a dream or not?

It's a Shade of the Evening induced vision.

[LynnS]

14 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I think it more likely that the above passage refers to individuals/factions rather than literal creatures, but that may relate to some of the alternative reads you raised of the "kraken horn." The Night's King binding his brothers with sorcery might also fall under this speculative umbrella.

Euron shows up with several wizards/sorcerers who seem to be bound to his will for some reason.  He's removed their tongues and they seem to be enslaved.  I wonder how he managed it; how and why they are with him.

Are Euron's mongrels wizards?  I don't know:
 

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A Feast for Crows - The Drowned Man

Bright and baneful was its voice, a shivering hot scream that made a man's bones seem to thrum within him. The cry lingered in the damp sea air: aaaaRREEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

All eyes turned toward the sound. It was one of Euron's mongrels winding the call, a monstrous man with a shaved head. Rings of gold and jade and jet glistened on his arms, and on his broad chest was tattooed some bird of prey, talons dripping blood.

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A Storm of Swords - Daenerys II

Her litter came to a sudden halt at the cross street, to allow a coffle of slaves to shuffle across her path, urged along by the crack of an overseer's lash. These were no Unsullied, Dany noted, but a more common sort of men, with pale brown skins and black hair. There were women among them, but no children. All were naked. Two Astapori rode behind them on white asses, a man in a red silk tokar and a veiled woman in sheer blue linen decorated with flakes of lapis lazuli. In her red-black hair she wore an ivory comb. The man laughed as he whispered to her, paying no more mind to Dany than to his slaves, nor the overseer with his twisted five-thonged lash, a squat broad Dothraki who had the harpy and chains tattooed proudly across his muscular chest.

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A Dance with Dragons - Victarion I

"Once." One of his brother's mongrels had sounded the hellhorn at the kingsmoot on Old Wyk. A monster of a man he had been, huge and shaven-headed, with rings of gold and jet and jade around arms thick with muscle, and a great hawk tattooed across his chest. "The sound it made … it burned, somehow. As if my bones were on fire, searing my flesh from within. Those writings glowed red-hot, then white-hot and painful to look upon. It seemed as if the sound would never end. It was like some long scream. A thousand screams, all melted into one."

 

[redriver]

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

20 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I think it more likely that the above passage refers to individuals/factions rather than literal creatures, but that may relate to some of the alternative reads you raised of the "kraken horn." The Night's King binding his brothers with sorcery might also fall under this speculative umbrella.

Euron shows up with several wizards/sorcerers who seem to be bound to his will for some reason.  He's removed their tongues and they seem to be enslaved.  I wonder how he managed it; how and why they are with him.

Are Euron's mongrels wizards?  I don't know:

Can't say as I know either.Judging by the tats it looks like these are ex-slaves from Essos,taken by force in raids there and places like the Basilisk Isles.

I doubt they are magically bound or ensorcelled-no evidence for it that I can see.They are bound by force,and especially terror.Maybe by riches too.Euron takes little interest in plunder,instead letting the hands keep what they take.

I'm not in favour of theories suggesting Euron is magical in any way.Not in league with the Others or Bloodraven's failed apprentice.

He's a thug and a psychopath who's seen magic work and pumped up with Shade of the Evening,thinks he can play the game too.

Nasty stuff in TWOW but compelling .

[LynnS]

44 minutes ago, redriver said:

Can't say as I know either.Judging by the tats it looks like these are ex-slaves from Essos,taken by force in raids there and places like the Basilisk Isles.

I doubt they are magically bound or ensorcelled-no evidence for it that I can see.They are bound by force,and especially terror.Maybe by riches too.Euron takes little interest in plunder,instead letting the hands keep what they take.

I'm not in favour of theories suggesting Euron is magical in any way.Not in league with the Others or Bloodraven's failed apprentice.

He's a thug and a psychopath who's seen magic work and pumped up with Shade of the Evening,thinks he can play the game too.

Nasty stuff in TWOW but compelling .

Yes, he's one of the creepier characters to be sure along with Ramsey Bolton.  Euron is going to attempt some great magic using holy blood and I'm not sure that he isn't himself an abomination or being controlled at least part of the time in some fashion.  I'm not discounting that he will be transformed into something even more corrupt and evil.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, redriver said:

Can't say as I know either.Judging by the tats it looks like these are ex-slaves from Essos,taken by force in raids there and places like the Basilisk Isles.

I doubt they are magically bound or ensorcelled-no evidence for it that I can see.They are bound by force,and especially terror.Maybe by riches too.Euron takes little interest in plunder,instead letting the hands keep what they take.

I'm not in favour of theories suggesting Euron is magical in any way.Not in league with the Others or Bloodraven's failed apprentice.

He's a thug and a psychopath who's seen magic work and pumped up with Shade of the Evening,thinks he can play the game too.

Nasty stuff in TWOW but compelling .

[Brad Stark]

16 hours ago, redriver said:

However I think it likely that Euron has what purports to be a dragon horn.He's convinced Aeron he's been to Valyria...

People have suggested the horn belonged to the warlocks.  I don't think he really went to Valaryia and other artifacts could be the warlocks' or other plunder.

[redriver]

12 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

People have suggested the horn belonged to the warlocks.  I don't think he really went to Valaryia and other artifacts could be the warlocks' or other plunder.

Or he got as far as the Smoking Sea and sent his mongrels into the interior to extract treasures.

it's all beside the point,imo.He has warlocks,wizards and sundry miscellaneous religious types under his thrall,or legless,bound to rafters.

Aeron,who was highly cynical of Euron's credentials now believes that Euron did go to Valarya.That's how GRRM wrote it.Maybe he was having a senior moment?

 

 

 

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

People have suggested the horn belonged to the warlocks.  I don't think he really went to Valaryia and other artifacts could be the warlocks' or other plunder.

I'm on board with this.  I think Rodrick Harlaw expressed skepticism of Euron actually traveling to Valyria as well. 

The Warlocks were traveling to Pentos when Euron intercepted them, this is after Illyrio had sent "Aristan" and Strong Belwas to fetch Dany and bring her back to Pentos.  My guess is the Warlocks may have been in league with Illyrio to try and wrest control of Dany's dragons from her and may have brought the horn for just such a purpose.

[Frey family reunion]

4 hours ago, redriver said:

Can't say as I know either.Judging by the tats it looks like these are ex-slaves from Essos,taken by force in raids there and places like the Basilisk Isles.

I doubt they are magically bound or ensorcelled-no evidence for it that I can see.They are bound by force,and especially terror.Maybe by riches too.Euron takes little interest in plunder,instead letting the hands keep what they take.

I'm not in favour of theories suggesting Euron is magical in any way.Not in league with the Others or Bloodraven's failed apprentice.

He's a thug and a psychopath who's seen magic work and pumped up with Shade of the Evening,thinks he can play the game too.

Nasty stuff in TWOW but compelling .

But wasn't there some observation by Victarion that Euron hadn't aged any since he had last seen him?  It wouldn't be out of the question that Euron may have been resurrected.

[Melifeather]

52 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

But wasn't there some observation by Victarion that Euron hadn't aged any since he had last seen him?  It wouldn't be out of the question that Euron may have been resurrected.

If weirwood paste weds you to the trees, does shade of the evening wed you to the air? I had proposed that since the Children's greenseer is underground and sees through the weirwoods that the reverse would be a fire seer that sees through flames and glass candles. There must be a type of "wedding" in order to have this ability. Melisandre seems like the flames are inside her, and god knows who has the ability to look through glass candles. 

[Black Crow]

6 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

If weirwood paste weds you to the trees, does shade of the evening wed you to the air? I had proposed that since the Children's greenseer is underground and sees through the weirwoods that the reverse would be a fire seer that sees through flames and glass candles. There must be a type of "wedding" in order to have this ability. Melisandre seems like the flames are inside her, and god knows who has the ability to look through glass candles. 

I rather had the impression that they might be Valyrian in origin. While we immediately associate Valyrians with dragons, concentrating on the beasties diverts attention away from other things, like being able to communicate over great distances, their roads and other works. I don't have the text to hand, but it does remind me a bit of that SSM speaking of what the Others can do with Ice.

[SirArthur]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

But wasn't there some observation by Victarion that Euron hadn't aged any since he had last seen him?  It wouldn't be out of the question that Euron may have been resurrected.

While we have read about 2 characters getting the fire back, we have never observed a character revived before the story. I assume there are some outside our very selective field of view. Melisandre is a good candidate. Euron may be another. I always wondered why neither Rhaegar nor Robert got the gift. 

[redriver]

4 hours ago, SirArthur said:

While we have read about 2 characters getting the fire back, we have never observed a character revived before the story. I assume there are some outside our very selective field of view. Melisandre is a good candidate. Euron may be another. I always wondered why neither Rhaegar nor Robert got the gift. 

Melisandre is a good candidate,especially since that could have occurred a very long time ago.

Euron,not so much.Maybe his relatively youthful looks are a glamour rather than resurrection?

It appears that the ability to resurrect using the Fiery God's kiss had not been activated in Westeros in either Rhaegar's or Robert's time.Thoros brings Beric back soon after more by accident than design.

[Black Crow]

12 hours ago, SirArthur said:

 I always wondered why neither Rhaegar nor Robert got the gift. 

Lack of availability is the short answer. Despite the common allegiance to Fire there doesn't seem to be any connection between the Red lot and the Targaryens, or rather the Valyrians. As for Trouserless Bob, Thoros was off with Dondarrion at the time and while a quick puff of magic smoke can be kept discreet in a dark wood, reviving a dying man at court, especially when he's surrounded by his muderers impatiently waiting for him to shuffle off is a little more problematic

[Black Crow]

14 hours ago, redriver said:

Melisandre is a good candidate,especially since that could have occurred a very long time ago.

Euron,not so much.Maybe his relatively youthful looks are a glamour rather than resurrection?

It appears that the ability to resurrect using the Fiery God's kiss had not been activated in Westeros in either Rhaegar's or Robert's time.Thoros brings Beric back soon after more by accident than design.

And would add that Melisandre appears to have been turned out east. Another candidate of course is Moqorro who fails to die in the sea and whose face occasionally shimmers as if glamoured. Again though that's out east and so is Victarion, who appears to have begun the process of transformation

[Black Crow]

14 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

But wasn't there some observation by Victarion that Euron hadn't aged any since he had last seen him?  It wouldn't be out of the question that Euron may have been resurrected.

I think that there are enough clues being scattered to conclude that Euron has gained powers or is being manipulated by a power, but that's not the same thing as his being significant to the outcome. Rather I'd suggest he's part of a wider picture of magic and anarchy coming to the fore as we approach the end of days. In other words he's adding to the horror and suffering but isn't the ultimate cause of it.

[redriver]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

whose face occasionally shimmers as if clamoured

I take it you'd just enjoyed a nice seafood brunch when you wrote this?