Heresy 206: of Starks and Walls

[Melifeather]

I think its funny how most of you are discounting Euron's powers and importance to the story! This is a story of two sides of the same coin and he is Bloodraven's flip side. He's the ice magic to Bloodraven's fire magic, the combination of air and water to Bloodraven's earth and fire, and he's hiding in plain sight. 

[Black Crow]

Detest seafood - have you seen what water does to your boots 

[LynnS]

If it's complaints day -- damn those blu-ray players!  They work for a little while and then stop reading blu-rays discs.  Then they stop reading dvd's.  Off to the store.

[redriver]

20 minutes ago, LynnS said:

If it's complaints day -- damn those blu-ray players!  They work for a little while and then stop reading blu-rays discs.  Then they stop reading dvd's.  Off to the store.

It's St Patrick's day.

[Brad Stark]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think its funny how most of you are discounting Euron's powers and importance to the story! This is a story of two sides of the same coin and he is Bloodraven's flip side. He's the ice magic to Bloodraven's fire magic, the combination of air and water to Bloodraven's earth and fire, and he's hiding in plain sight. 

We don't know Bloodraven's role, but he seems to be part of the story as a whole going back to book I.  Euron suddenly came out of nowhere as the ultimate big bad guy.

Given GRRM's gardener style of writing, I believe GRRM intended BR to be part of the story from the very beginning, knowing the role he would play before deciding exactly who he was or how he fit.

Euron strikes me as a big bad guy because GRRM decided he needed one at the time.  Maybe he needs Theon to redeem himself, to make Moqorro a bigger threat to Dany or explain where Jon's armor came from - but he really isn't central to the story, and once he does what he needs to do, he will depart as fast as he arrived.

[Melifeather]

12 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

We don't know Bloodraven's role, but he seems to be part of the story as a whole going back to book I.  Euron suddenly came out of nowhere as the ultimate big bad guy.

Given GRRM's gardener style of writing, I believe GRRM intended BR to be part of the story from the very beginning, knowing the role he would play before deciding exactly who he was or how he fit.

Euron strikes me as a big bad guy because GRRM decided he needed one at the time.  Maybe he needs Theon to redeem himself, to make Moqorro a bigger threat to Dany or explain where Jon's armor came from - but he really isn't central to the story, and once he does what he needs to do, he will depart as fast as he arrived.

Euron's name is brought up by Theon when Robb sends him home to Pyke in A Clash of Kings. He and his brother convinced their father to join Robert's Rebellion, and his description is in the appendix at the end of Game of Thrones. How can you say he suddenly came out of nowhere? He's talked about well in advance of his actual appearance when Balon dies. We'll be reading a lot about Euron if the leaked Forsaken chapter is any indication.

[Matthew.]

41 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Euron strikes me as a big bad guy because GRRM decided he needed one at the time. 

This is essentially how I view Euron and Ramsay--interim antagonists, secondary characters, filling the void left by the deaths of Tywin and Joffrey. AFFC and ADWD kind of have that feel to me in general, the feel of an author spinning his wheels while he tries to bridge the gap between the War of the Five Kings and the point where the threat of the Others' comes to the fore.

I suppose a lot of this goes to reader perception, because inasmuch as ASOIAF could be said to have a primary villain, I've always thought of Littlefinger as the human/political "big bad," while the Others (and perhaps Dany) are the primary supernatural threat(s).

This doesn't mean he won't do anything important (I would return to the prior example of Walder Frey as a minor character involved in a major plot point), but I suspect he also falls into the category of characters like Brienne, Young Griff, the Martell and Greyjoy (excluding Theon) POVs and so forth where I suspect GRRM could have mostly told the story he'd always envisioned without these characters and their plotlines.

[redriver]

12 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Euron's name is brought up by Theon when Robb sends him home to Pyke in A Clash of Kings. He and his brother convinced their father to join Robert's Rebellion, and his description is in the appendix at the end of Game of Thrones. How can you say he suddenly came out of nowhere? He's talked about well in advance of his actual appearance when Balon dies. We'll be reading a lot about Euron if the leaked Forsaken chapter is any indication.

If you subscribe to inversion theory you have to ask silly questions,such as;-If Bloodraven is teaching Bran,who is Euron not teaching?

[Black Crow]

31 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

This is essentially how I view Euron and Ramsay--interim antagonists, secondary characters, filling the void left by the deaths of Tywin and Joffrey. AFFC and ADWD kind of have that feel to me in general, the feel of an author spinning his wheels while he tries to bridge the gap between the War of the Five Kings and the point where the threat of the Others' comes to the fore.

I suppose a lot of this goes to reader perception, because inasmuch as ASOIAF could be said to have a primary villain, I've always thought of Littlefinger as the human/political "big bad," while the Others (and perhaps Dany) are the primary supernatural threat(s).

This doesn't mean he won't do anything important (I would return to the prior example of Walder Frey as a minor character involved in a major plot point), but I suspect he also falls into the category of characters like Brienne, Young Griff, the Martell and Greyjoy (excluding Theon) POVs and so forth where I suspect GRRM could have mostly told the story he'd always envisioned without these characters and their plotlines.

And I agree with both you and Brad on this one; there is a big difference between prominent secondary characters and the principals.

On a non-magical level Twin Lannister started off as very important in the game of thrones, now he's pushing up daisies

[Melifeather]

36 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I suppose a lot of this goes to reader perception, because inasmuch as ASOIAF could be said to have a primary villain, I've always thought of Littlefinger as the human/political "big bad," while the Others (and perhaps Dany) are the primary supernatural threat(s).

I used to think Littlefinger was the looming giant in armor made of stone, ...."but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood." ....,but now I see the giant in armor as encompassing the entirety of knighthood and how atrocities and evil are hidden behind honor and chivalry. Euron represents the ugly underbelly of man, the reflection of one's self in dark distorting mirrors where we glimpse things that disturb us, things that we did not really want to look at.

34 minutes ago, redriver said:

If you subscribe to inversion theory you have to ask silly questions,such as;-If Bloodraven is teaching Bran,who is Euron not teaching?

Euron doesn't need a replacement at the moment. The wheel of time - the ouroboros or dragon eating it's own tail - has history trapped in a continual loop. Bloodraven's time on the wheel is setting while Euron's time is rising. Bran is Bloodraven's plan to interrupt the wheel or at the very least try to manipulate it. The erratic seasons are side effects of attempts to manipulate the looping historic events. Weirwood trees have no concept of time...past, present, future, its all the same to a tree, but the greenseer sees all the historic events that have happened, are happening, and will happen. A greenseer cannot change the past, but they can control who "history" happens to. It's like playing Cyvasse. The players set up the board and lay out their pieces behind a screen. After every piece is in place the screen is lifted and play begins...the same historic events play out, but different playing pieces and different players affect who wins the game.

[JNR]

37 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I used to think Littlefinger was the looming giant in armor made of stone, ...."but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood." ....,but now I see the giant in armor as encompassing the entirety of knighthood and how atrocities and evil are hidden behind honor and chivalry.

This never occurred to me before, but I immediately like it.

Even if it turns out the vision is of Ser Gregor, it's still basically true.

Quote

That gorget wasn't fastened proper. You think Gregor didn't notice that? You think Ser Gregor's lance rode up by chance, do you? Pretty little talking girl, you believe that, you're empty-headed as a bird for true. Gregor's lance goes where Gregor wants it to go. 

Quote

"I am no ser," the Hound replied

And now that (almost certainly) Ser Gregor has become Ser Robert Strong of the Kingsguard, it's doubly true.

[SirArthur]

23 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Lack of availability is the short answer. Despite the common allegiance to Fire there doesn't seem to be any connection between the Red lot and the Targaryens, or rather the Valyrians. As for Trouserless Bob, Thoros was off with Dondarrion at the time and while a quick puff of magic smoke can be kept discreet in a dark wood, reviving a dying man at court, especially when he's surrounded by his muderers impatiently waiting for him to shuffle off is a little more problematic

I would have to research into the question how much Mel forgets and how much Robert forgets. Has anyone done that yet ?

[Black Crow]

17 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I would have to research into the question how much Mel forgets and how much Robert forgets. Has anyone done that yet ?

Bob only forgets what he wants to forget

Mel doesn't seem to have problems forgetting things, though she does reveal some intriguing stuff in her dreams, but as we've only had one POV chapter the range is a bit narrow.

I would say though that Mel and Moqorro are in a very different league from Dondarrion in that in Mel's case at least she isn't a revived corpse but may be fire made flesh. Interestingly though Victarion appears oblivious to his arm and its going to be interesting to see how far the fire spreads

[Melifeather]

You know what else it funny? How something you've been talking about comes up in a tv show that can expand an idea. I was watching Sherlock last night - did you know Sherlock has a sister named Eurus? Eurus is a Greek god of the east wind. How appropros is that! Euron sounds like a derivative of Eurus.

EUROS (Eurus) was the god of the east wind, one of the four directional Anemoi (Wind-Gods). He was associated with the season of autumn and dwelt near the palace of the sun-god Helios in the far east.

One of Euron's titles is Son of the Sea Wind. Interesting how that title combines water and air.

[Melifeather]

18 hours ago, JNR said:

This never occurred to me before, but I immediately like it.

Even if it turns out the vision is of Ser Gregor, it's still basically true.

And now that (almost certainly) Ser Gregor has become Ser Robert Strong of the Kingsguard, it's doubly true.

Thank you kind ser. 

It's a larger theme as is the idea that Bran's place will be as learning to control the wheel of history.

[JNR]

11 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Bob only forgets what he wants to forget

And some things he remembers only ever existed in his mind.

6 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I was watching Sherlock last night - did you know Sherlock has a sister named Eurus?

Only in the BBC's recent version.

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

It's a larger theme

It may well be.  There's no reason visions always have to be of specific people; some of them may be of broader, more abstract concepts, like the concept you suggested: corrupt knighthood.

For instance, in the same chapter, Bran sees dragons stirring beneath the sunrise in Asshai.  Is that a reference to actual dragons, in the past or present or future?  Or does it refer to a more abstract concept, of which dragons are only a symbol?

[Black Crow]

15 minutes ago, JNR said:

Only in the BBC's recent version.

Oh dear me, yes indeedy. The "real" Sherlock only ever had his cleverer elder brother Mycroft

[Melifeather]

Well, Eurus may be just a BBC invention, but Eurus or Euros was created by the Greeks, and I was merely pointing out that this god is likely the inspiration for Euron.

[LynnS]

26 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Oh dear me, yes indeedy. The "real" Sherlock only ever had his cleverer elder brother Mycroft

Mark Gatiss is brilliant!  I love this version of Sherlock.  He has a bit part in GoT as a representative of the Iron Bank. 

[Black Crow]

10 hours ago, LynnS said:

Mark Gatiss is brilliant!  I love this version of Sherlock.  He has a bit part in GoT as a representative of the Iron Bank. 

Well you do realise that the real villains behind all of this are not the Tree-huggers, or the Red Lot but the bankers