Heresy 206: of Starks and Walls

[wolfmaid7]

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I agree, and Mormont speaks of LCs aspiring to leave the Wall higher than they found it as an end unto itself--so it's not as though there was some goal of 100 feet, 300 feet, or 700 feet because they needed a specific height for a specific purpose; it just seems like growth for the sake of growth.

They were literally trying to leave their mark so to speak. I couldn't help it,the set up was there.

[redriver]

Damn.I've written a piece re Ser Shadrich on my workplace PC but can't recover it on my home one.

I'll try tonight.

Carry on!

[LynnS]

10 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Now what exactly he's doing I don't know but I do think that it centres around Bran rather than playing at King Alfred - or for that matter waiting for the right moment to step forward and lay his affydavey as to which cabbage leaf Jon Snow was found under.

I think it has more to do with who will get their hands on the Dawn Sword since he was responsible for making it available.

[LynnS]

19 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

If Howland is really running around in disguise I think there are four possibilities (I'll put them in order of what I think is most likely to least likely):

1. High Sparrow. 

2. Tom O' Sevenstreams

3. Shadrich

4. Septon Meribald (this is a real dark horse.  Unlike the other three he is not described as small, but is described as being stooped over.  So I suppose it is possible that if Howland is operating under a glamor he could be disguised as a taller person stooped over).

The High Sparrow has been debated enough on this board. 

Tom O'Sevenstreams is interesting because he is the most stereotypical of a "green man" type character out of folklore.  I also find it intriguing that Howland Reed is allegedly descended from the "Marsh Kings" of the Neck.  There was a book by Walter Hodges back in the lates 60's about King Alfred the Great titled the Marsh King.  I haven't gotten around to reading it yet, but I assume that he associates this title to King Alfred for the time that King Alfred hid out in the Sommerset Marshes from the Vikings.   Anyways, old King Alfred was known for traveling in disguises, having once infiltrated a Danish camp disguised as a wandering minstrel.

 I'd put Shadrich a distant third behind these two unless he's operating under a glamor because his hair color seems wrong for being the father of Meera and Jojen.  I've also become really enamored with Shadrich being a descendant of House Darklyn, which was discussed in the previous Heresy. 

 

Except for the height problem; it's been suggested that Septon Meribald is the High Sparrow.  His feet are also black and gnarled like tree roots.  I think that's the giveaway that some of these wandering septons are a part of a network of green men.  It makes sense to me that Howland would be leading this network and positioned as the High Sparrow.  This would explain why Robb had special instructions on how to contact Howland; not because Greywater Watch can't be located; but because he is on the move and has to be contacted at some pre-determined destination like the Quiet Isle for example. 

 

[Black Crow]

18 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I agree, and Mormont speaks of LCs aspiring to leave the Wall higher than they found it as an end unto itself--so it's not as though there was some goal of 100 feet, 300 feet, or 700 feet because they needed a specific height for a specific purpose; it just seems like growth for the sake of growth.

I wonder how far back this goes?

We know about the abandonment of castles in general but not the process. We have the story of the abandonment of the Night Fort in favour of a new and smaller one at Deep Lake, but was this a one-off or was it a repeated practice and the number of occupied castles always small? ie; in counting the ruins the Night Fort and Deep Lake nominally account for two castles, but in reality represent just one garrison which started off at the Nightfort and then moved bag and baggage into the smaller one, how many other duplicates are there?

Just how long ago is it since a Lord Commander had the will, the resources and above all the manpower to spare in raising the Wall, because as always the further back we go the less reliable the stories. Sam in his searching of the archives comes across all sorts of records of food and stores, but makes a point of complaining he can find little about the blue-eyed lot and certainly doesn't mention finding anything about large construction projects. 

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think it has more to do with who will get their hands on the Dawn Sword since he was responsible for making it available.

The two aren't incompatible but I still feel that someone with such a strong connection to the old gods is going to be leaning in that direction especially if Bran is likely to be something more than bloodraven's successor.

This one's from March 1999:

“The green men and the Isle of Faces will come to the fore in later books.” 

[Melifeather]

58 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I wonder how far back this goes?

We know about the abandonment of castles in general but not the process. We have the story of the abandonment of the Night Fort in favour of a new and smaller one at Deep Lake, but was this a one-off or was it a repeated practice and the number of occupied castles always small? ie; in counting the ruins the Night Fort and Deep Lake nominally account for two castles, but in reality represent just one garrison which started off at the Nightfort and then moved bag and baggage into the smaller ones, how many other duplicates are there?

Just how long ago is it since a Lord Commander had the will, the resources and above all the manpower to spare in raising the Wall, because as always the further back we go the less reliable the stories. Sam in his searching of the archives comes across all sorts of records of food and stores, but makes a point of complaining he can find little about the blue-eyed and certainly doesn't mention finding anything about large construction projects. 

Maybe when the Nightfort was abandoned the garrison was split with half going to Deep Lake and half to other castles?

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The two aren't incompatible but I still feel that someone with such a strong connection to the old gods is going to be leaning in that direction especially if Bran is likely to be something more than bloodraven's successor.

This one's from March 1999:

“The green men and the Isle of Faces will come to the fore in later books.” 

Yes, I agree.  Ned had to live for Bran to be born and crows, sparrows and an ancient owl are old friends to Bran.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Maybe when the Nightfort was abandoned the garrison was split with half going to Deep Lake and half to other castles?

Depends a bit on whether the Nightfort was still the administrative centre in which case some of the stewards probably went to Castle Black, but otherwise the story implies that they all moved out of a crumbling castle which was too big for them and went to a new but smaller one instead. The point I'm making is that not all of the castles may have been occupied at the same time and that the total number of ruins may mask the fact that the decline of the Watch may have been longer and more drawn out than shrinking to just three castles over one or perhaps two generations

[SirArthur]

I think we have to accept for the moment that 17 castles were manned at the same time. Their creation story is of course another case and I'm not sure. At the moment we should have a castle every 5 1/2 league. We know that they are not spread equally, as Deep Lake is just 2 and something leagues away from the NF. The most interesting position is the NF and how far away it is from Castle Black. Queensgate and Deep Lake are in between and if we only take Queensgate into account there should be 11 leagues or a good day march between them. 

[LynnS]

19 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The High Sparrow has been debated enough on this board. 

I'd also point out that Septon Meribald can 'walk on leaves'.  This is one of the magics of the Crannogmen that Meera mentions to Bran.  "Walking on leaves' is an obscure way of saying that the Crannogmen know how to avoid the pitfalls of swamps and bogs where hazards are covered with leaves and appear to be solid footing.  

Septon Meribald demonstrates that knowledge when he shows Brienne the Path of the Faithful.  He takes her safely across the mudflats to the Quiet Isle.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Brienne VI

Septon Meribald smiled. "Mothers have been cowing their daughters with that tale since I was your age. There was no truth to it then and there is none now. A vow of silence is an act of contrition, a sacrifice by which we prove our devotion to the Seven Above. For a mute to take a vow of silence would be akin to a legless man giving up the dance." He led his donkey down the slope, beckoning them to follow. "If you would sleep beneath a roof tonight, you must climb off your horses and cross the mud with me. The path of faith, we call it. Only the faithful may cross safely. The wicked are swallowed by the quicksands, or drowned when the tide comes rushing in. None of you are wicked, I hope? Even so, I would be careful where I set my feet. Walk only where I walk, and you shall reach the other side."

I'm curious about Martin's invocation of the Act of Contrition and Ned's silence concerning Jon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_Contrition

[Melifeather]

While the evidence of walking on leaves is compelling, the idea of Howland and the crannognan being connected to the Faith is too much of a conflict.

[Lady Dyanna]

Controversial as it might be, it seems like maybe this is the time to recall what is said about the Wall and the Watch from our in world history book...

Quote

 

Unique in the Seven Kingdoms is the Night’s Watch, the sworn brotherhood that has defended the Wall over centuries and millennia, born in the aftermath of the Long Night, the generation-long winter that brought the Others down on the realms of men and nearly put an end to them.

The history of the Night’s Watch is a long one. Tales still tell of the black knights of the Wall and their noble calling. But the Age of Heroes is long done, and the Others have not shown themselves in thousands of years, if indeed they ever existed.

And so, year by year, the Watch has dwindled. Their own records prove that this decline has been in progress even before the age of Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters. Though the black brothers of the Watch still guard the realms of men as nobly as they may, the threats they face no longer come from Others, wights, giants, greenseers, wargs, skinchangers, and other monsters from children’s tales and legend, but rather, barbaric wildlings armed with stone axes and clubs; savages to be sure, but only men, and no match for disciplined warriors.

It was not always so. Whether the legends are true or not, it is plain that the First Men and the children of the forest (and even the giants, if we take the word of the singers) feared something enough that it drove them to begin raising the Wall. And this great construction, as simple as it is, is justly accounted among the wonders of the world. It may be that its earliest foundations were of stone—the maesters differ in this—but now all that can be seen for a distance of a hundred leagues is ice. Nearby lakes provided the material, which the First Men cut into huge blocks and hauled upon sledges to the Wall, and worked into place one by one. Now, thousands of years later, the Wall stands more than seven hundred feet tall at its highest point (though its height varies considerably over the hundred leagues of its length, as it follows the contours of the land). 

Legend has it that the giants helped raise the Wall, using their great strength to wrestle the blocks of ice into place. There may be some truth to this though the stories make the giants out to be far larger and more powerful than they truly were. These same legends also say that the children of the forest—who did not themselves build walls of either ice or stone—would contribute their magic to the construction. But the legends, as always, are of dubious value. 

Beneath the shadow of that wall of ice, the Night’s Watch raised nineteen strongholds—though they are unlike any other castles in the Seven Kingdoms, for they have no curtain walls or other defensive fortifications to protect them (the Wall itself being more than ample against any threat coming from the north, and the Watch insists it has no foes to the south).

The greatest and oldest of these is the Nightfort, which has been abandoned for the past two hundred years; as the Watch shrunk, its size made it too large and too costly to maintain. Maesters who served at the Nightfort whilst it was still in use made it plain that the castle had been expanded upon many times over the centuries and that little remained of its original structure save for some of the deepest vaults chiseled out of the rock beneath the castle’s feet.

Yet over the thousands of years of its existence as the chief seat of the Watch, the Nightfort has accrued many legends of its own, some of which have been recounted in Archmaester Harmune’s Watchers on the Wall. The oldest of these tales concern the legendary Night’s King, the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, who was alleged to have bedded a sorceress pale as a corpse and declared himself a king. For thirteen years the Night’s King and his “corpse queen” ruled together, before King of Winter, Brandon the Breaker, (in alliance, it is said, with the King-Beyond-the-Wall, Joramun) brought them down. Thereafter, he obliterated the Night’s King’s very name from memory.

In the Citadel, the archmaesters largely dismiss these tales—though some allow that there may have been a Lord Commander who attempted to carve out a kingdom for himself in the earliest days of the Watch. Some suggest that perhaps the corpse queen was a woman of the Barrowlands, a daughter of the Barrow King who was then a power in his own right, and oft associated with graves. The Night’s King has been said to have been variously a Bolton, a Woodfoot, an Umber, a Flint, a Norrey, or even a Stark, depending on where the tale is told. Like all tales, it takes on the attributes that make it most appealing to those who tell it. 

CASTLES OF THE NIGHT’S WATCH

ACTIVE

The Shadow Tower

Castle Black (now the seat of the Lord Commander of the Watch)

Eastwatch-by-the-Sea

ABANDONED

Westwatch-by-the-Bridge

Sentinel Stand

Greyguard

Stonedoor

Hoarfrost Hill

Icemark

The Nightfort

Deep Lake

Queensgate (which was once named Snowgate before being renamed in honor of Good Queen Alysanne)

Oakenshield

Woodswatch-by-the-Pool

Sable Hall

Rimegate

Long Barrow

Torches

Greenguard 

 

The Night’s Watch, which might well be called the first militant order in the Seven Kingdoms (for the first duty of all its members is to defend the Wall, and all are trained at arms to this end), has divided its sworn brothers into three groups:

1) the stewards, who supply the Watch with food, clothing, and all the other things they need to make war,

2) the builders, who tend to the Wall and the castles,

3) the rangers, who venture into the wilds beyond to make war upon the wildlings.

Leading them are the senior officers of the Watch, the chief of whom is the Lord Commander. He himself is appointed by election: the men of the Watch, each and every one—from the unlettered former poachers to the scions of the great houses—will cast a vote for the man he believes should lead them. Once one man has the greater part of the votes, he will lead the Watch until his death. It is a custom that has largely served the Watch well, and efforts to subvert it (as when Lord Commander Runcel Hightower attempted to leave the Watch to his bastard son some five hundred years ago) have never lasted.

Sadly, the most important truth about the Night’s Watch today is its decline. It may once have served a great purpose. But if the Others ever existed, they have not been seen in thousands of years and are of no threat to men. It is the wildlings beyond the Wall who are the danger the Night’s Watch now face. Yet only when there are kings-beyond-the-Wall have the wildlings ever truly presented a threat to the realms of men.

The vast expense in sustaining the Wall and the men who man it has become increasingly intolerable. Only three of the castles of the Night’s Watch are now manned, and the order is a tenth of the size that it was when Aegon and his sisters landed, yet even at this size, the Watch remains a burden.

Some argue that the Wall serves as a useful way of ridding the realm of murderers, rapers, poachers, and their ilk, whilst others question the wisdom of putting weapons in the hands of such and training them in the arts of war. Wildling raids may rightly be considered more of a nuisance than a menace; many wise men suggest that they might be better dealt with by allowing the lords of the North to extend their rule beyond the Wall so that they can drive the wildlings back.

Only the fact that the Northmen themselves greatly honor the Watch has kept it functioning, and a great part of the food that keeps the black brothers of Castle Black, the Shadow Tower, and Eastwatch-by-the-Sea from starving comes not from the Gift but from the yearly gifts these Northern lords deliver to the Wall in token of their support.

 

 

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

While the evidence of walking on leaves is compelling, the idea of Howland and the crannognan being connected to the Faith is too much of a conflict.

I don't think so.  The old gods and the new might actually be in harmony. 

[JNR]

On 3/7/2018 at 1:03 PM, Matthew. said:

it is perfectly possible for the Wall to simultaneously be the product of magical and physical labor

As I have said so many times, this is in fact my own position.  

You don't create a 300-mile-long ward against Popsicles and wights with zero work... just as you don't create a 700-foot tall wall of physical ice with zero work.  

Also, of course, either the Wall has some sort of reinforcement magic holding it in place, or else GRRM just screwed up completely in thinking such a construction would do anything but implode. 

So for me it's beyond any reasonable doubt that the Wall as we see it today was built as a product of both magical and physical work.

On 3/7/2018 at 1:03 PM, Matthew. said:

A strange thing to observe aloud, but absolutely correct.

Uh huh.  

Sometimes in Heresy, it's necessary to say it, because ideas have a way of evolving from "X is our imagination at work" (which is true) to "we know X" (which is not true) to "given X, we also know Y, and since Y, we also know Z".

The last is similar to what happens among R+L=J true believers, and has IMO led over many years to mass hallucination built via stacked blocks of false certainty, and will eventually yield the biggest implosion in the history of F/SF fandom...

...like what would happen to the Wall if it lacked reinforcement magic.  

However, the question you asked 

On 3/7/2018 at 1:03 PM, Matthew. said:

Is the Black Gate dead?

...is really an interesting one.  

The problem IMO is that we don't even know what the Black Gate really is.  We don't know if it's a door -- meaning a flat chunk of weirwood that was cut from the trunk of a felled tree and then ensorcelled somehow -- or... something quite different from that.

So I for one would love to read a chapter in which Bran tries to skinchange the Black Gate.  

Because I don't think he could skinchange something that was truly dead, such as a rock, and if he were to succeed in skinchanging the Black Gate, what kinds of memories might he then be able to access?  What would we then learn, likely to be of great consequence, that we don't know now?

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

As I have said so many times, this is in fact my own position.  

You don't create a 300-mile-long ward against Popsicles and wights with zero work... just as you don't create a 700-foot tall wall of physical ice with zero work.  

Also, of course, either the Wall has some sort of reinforcement magic holding it in place, or else GRRM just screwed up completely in thinking such a construction would do anything but implode. 

So for me it's beyond any reasonable doubt that the Wall as we see it today was built as a product of both magical and physical work.

Most of us would agree, but 95% magic and 5% manual labor or vice versa are a big difference.  I believe the Wall was built the sames as any physical structure, with magic only keeping it from falling apart, warding to prevent magic beings crossing and a few other tricks.  Someone else might believe it came it to being by magical means, and physical labor was only involved in tunneling, repairs and possibly adding height later.  Big differences.

[Brad Stark]

Does anyone think The Black Gate is something the Children would build?  They do not seem to be builders, although a 700 foot plain Wall across the continent without armies or support or anything else seems more like them than man.  As others have suggested, the gate could be a human transformed, but that doesn't say anything about how it came into being.  The Oath being spoken to open the gate also seems against the idea it was originally a Children's creation, unless it was reprogrammed later, or Children were already helping men fight the Others.  

If the Wall was made by Children, men could have added the gate later, and almost certainly added the castles later.  But if the Gate is as old (or older) than the Wall, I think it means men built the Wall - possibly with the help of Children and almost certainly Giants.

[redriver]

So could Ser Shadrich be the one and only Howland Reed?It may be the case as we'll see-there are plenty of hallmark GRRM hints,allusions,similarities and symbolisms to tantalize us-but maybe they're all red herrings.You decide.

Much of this work has already been done on this and other sites/blogs for which I can give links/references-though I didn't see the sigil/oath connection anywhere.

Let's look at the first appearance of Ser Shadrich in Brienne,AFFC.Brienne is journeying with Ser Creighton Longbough and Ser Illifer the penniless,two hedge knights of dubious renown, on her quest to find Sansa.They encounter a merchant along with another hedge knight.

         "ser Shadrich was a wiry,fox-faced man with a sharp nose and a shock of orange hair,mounted on a rangy chestnut courser.Though he could not have been more than five foot two,he had a cocksure manner."

So far the height seems to fit,not sure about the face and hair yet.That Howland is short,slim and strong is all we get by way of description when Meera is recounting the Knight of the Laughing Tree story.Meera's hair is light brown Jojen's is not given.Both have green eyes and are short and slim.So red hair is not confirmed for Howland but not ruled out either.The other option if it's not natural,is to die it.A crannogman would know where to find that.

We are not told their respective eye colours either.

In the WoW chapter,Alayne,

Spoiler

Shadrich, from Sansa's view was a "short,sharp faced man with a brush of orange hair........so short he might have been taken for a squire,but his face belonged to a much older man.She saw long leagues in the wrinkles at the corner of his mouth,an old battle scar beneath his ear,and a hardness behind the eyes that no boy would ever have.

    This would square with Howland being a battle veteran and of similar age to him and to Ned Stark.Physically there are enough similarites to make it a possibility they are one and the same,imo.

Looks are one thing,what about actions and words?Shadrich is quite sharp of tongue-" You're a strapping healthy wench I'd say"He is also quick to suss put Brienne's quest.

       Ser Shadrich laughed."A little lost sister, is it?With blue eyes and auburn hair?"He laughed again."You are not the only hunter in the woods.I seek for Sansa Stark as well."

He's doing so for love,he says,love of gold,like a good hedge knight.But might it be for the love he bore his father and family?.There is an allusion to Ned in the line "'Tis true I'm no tourney night".

Spoiler

He also declines to enter the lists at the Winged Knight tourney in the Vale,indicating that he's not there to become sweetrobin's bodyguard.He reinforces his Hedge Knight credentials when he says a bag of Dragons is all he can aspire to.Prior to this he grabbed Sansa's arm to prevent her from falling,like the Hound did.

So we have a hedge knight of similar size and stature to Howland,on a quest to find Sansa Stark for money,or maybe it's for love.Do we have any clues in his identity-Ser Shadrich the Mad Mouse of the Shady Glen?Mad, according to him because he seeks out blood and battle.Like mice crannogmen are not renowned for fighting or wars.Howland's an exception to the norm.Brienne does not recognize his shield or a place called Shady Glen.

The latter is reminiscent of Duskendale (where they are all headed).Not entirely sure of the connection here.We are minded of the Defiance when Ser Barristan rescued the Mad King.Maybe the rescue part has yet to happen.At least he's found Sansa.

The shield device is interesting-"A large white mouse with fierce red eyes,on bendy brown and blue.""The brown is for the lands I've roamed ,the blue for the rivers I've crossed.The mouse is me".

I'm not entirely sure why he chose a mouse other than they're small and associated with quiet.The later line referring to mice with wings being a silly sight leads us to think of bats, which are associated with Harrenhal through Houses Lothston and Whent.I think Sansa's grandmother was a Whent.Mad Danelle was a Lothston of Harrenhal.The colouring of the mouse is the same as the colours of the KotLT weirwood.and Ghost suggestive of the old gods and ice/fire.

The Mad Mouse shield seems to have strong association to the oath the Reeds swore at Winterfell-though I can't see any bonze/iron associations,the earth/water and ice/fire ones seem fairly obvious.

 

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Does anyone think The Black Gate is something the Children would build?  They do not seem to be builders, although a 700 foot plain Wall across the continent without armies or support or anything else seems more like them than man.  As others have suggested, the gate could be a human transformed, but that doesn't say anything about how it came into being.  The Oath being spoken to open the gate also seems against the idea it was originally a Children's creation, unless it was reprogrammed later, or Children were already helping men fight the Others.  

If the Wall was made by Children, men could have added the gate later, and almost certainly added the castles later.  But if the Gate is as old (or older) than the Wall, I think it means men built the Wall - possibly with the help of Children and almost certainly Giants.

I keep wondering if the Faceless Men have something to do with the Black Gate given their iconic doors of weirwood and ebony seen not only in the House of Black and White but in the House of Undying.  The Black Gate is so called because it is located in the 'black' of the well where even the light of the door itself only illuminates the door faintly.  Glowing with moonlight another icon of the doors of the HoB&W.

The door itself is made of weirwood and it seems to be concealing an entryway through the stone of the well deep down perhaps beneath the Wall itself.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

The well grew darker and colder with every turn. When Bran finally lifted his head around to look back up the shaft, the top of the well was no bigger than a half-moon. "Hodor," Hodor whispered, "Hodorhodorhodorhodorhodorhodor," the well whispered back. The water sounds were close, but when Bran peered down he saw only blackness.

A turn or two later Sam stopped suddenly. He was a quarter of the way around the well from Bran and Hodor and six feet farther down, yet Bran could barely see him. He could see the door, though. The Black Gate, Sam had called it, but it wasn't black at all.

It was white weirwood, and there was a face on it.

A glow came from the wood, like milk and moonlight, so faint it scarcely seemed to touch anything beyond the door itself, not even Sam standing right before it. The face was old and pale, wrinkled and shrunken. It looks dead. Its mouth was closed, and its eyes; its cheeks were sunken, its brow withered, its chin sagging. If a man could live for a thousand years and never die but just grow older, his face might come to look like that.

This isn't a carved face but a ghost face hung on a door and Coldhands seems to be something of a faceless man himself including the death for life equation he exacts from Sam for his silence about Bran.   Others have said that the oath of the NW itself erases identity. 

So I think there is some connection but I don't know what specifically.

   

[Black Crow]

6 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

While the evidence of walking on leaves is compelling, the idea of Howland and the crannognan being connected to the Faith is too much of a conflict.

... and the White Walkers tread lightly on the snow