Rethinking Saint Jon and Winterfell

[Blackwater Revenant]

39 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Are you saying Jon simply meant to take his sister back to the wall, and then send a raven to let her husband know where to find her, give her back, and Jon had no intentions of hiding her away from her husband?  Because if that is the case, then perhaps you can give him a little bit of an excuse for sticking his nose where it doesn't belong.  But you and I know that is not what Jon intended.  He meant to take his sister away from Ramsay and keep her away from him.  That is meddling in the affairs of House Bolton.  That is behaving in a way that is very partial and very prejudice.  Not to mention that it is an act of war and any house will take that as an attack on their family.  There is no excuse for Jon.  George wrote those chapters in such a way that Jon definitely is guilty of betraying the watch for the sake of helping his sister.  Bowen had no choice but to stick him with the pointy end to keep him from escalating the situation and making it worse.  It's not hating on Jon to point out that he committed treason against the watch, the night's watch brothers, and Westeros.  

No, what I am saying is that a claim that Jon betrayed the Watch is a false one, not supported by anything in the text. Betraying the Watch would entail Jon commiting a deceptive or treacherous act, with the willful attempt to bring down or impede the cause of the Watch. Like I stated, one can argue that Jon's actions were wrong, selfish, or harmful to the Watch, but nothing Jon did was with the intent to impede the Watch, or to betray his brothers.

His decision to save the girl in grey, is not synonymous with him turning his back on his duties. Mayhaps, one can argue that this decision was breaking his oath, but he still had every intent and desire to do what he felt needed to be done, in order to protect the realms of men from the threat posed by the Others.

[Lollygag]

4 hours ago, Seams said:

I think there's a reason that GRRM gives us two northern bastards named Snow - he wants us to compare Jon and Ramsay. Ramsay also wants legitimacy, status, father's approval and Winterfell. For him, that involves marrying a Stark.

A lot of the evidence you site for Jon becoming "dark" has to do with his wish to possess Winterfell and to be a real Stark. Are there any other elements in Jon's story that match up with the most horrific aspects of Ramsay's arc? I don't recall Jon forcing anyone into marriage and then subjecting them to sexual sadism or starving them to death; maiming anyone and turning them into a frightened sycophant; killing his legitimate half-brother; promising amnesty for men holding a captured castle and then killing them after all; forcing people to rebuild a feast hall and then killing them afterward - what am I forgetting?

Did Jon even think about doing parallel things?

We know that Jon cares deeply for Arya, so Ramsay's marriage to fake-Arya is a possible parallel. But clearly Jon is not going to force Arya to marry him the way Ramsay forced Jeyne Poole. He did persuade Alys Karstark to marry a wildling, but she actually saw that as a rescue and was grateful. Jon was less benevolent toward the Karstark uncle (cousin?) who was imprisoned in an ice cell as I recall. Is he being left there to freeze, similar to Lady Hornwood being locked up to die? Maybe that is further evidence of Jon's dark side.

It's fair to point out, though, I think, that Daenerys also longs for the house with the red door, wherever it might be. And Tyrion wants to own Casterly Rock. Jon is not the only guy whose desire to own his childhood home is in the forefront of his motives.

I was browsing through some old posts and came up with this one. Apparently it builds on some ideas from others that brought in the notion of a bastard as an ingredient in the catspaw attack on Bran. I think exploration of that bastard connection will provide more clues about Jon's dark side.

 

I've always thought of Ramsey as a contrast for Jon and the other bastards and bastard-type characters especially as Westeros has an especially harsh stereotype of bastards.

To be honest, Ramsey is very cartoonish to me and I have trouble treating him like a real character so I’m struggling some with this chain of thought. To a lesser extent, this is also true for me regarding Roose as interesting as he can be. There’s a very, very broad space between one’s more negative qualities and however you’d characterize Ramsey. Losing one’s inhibitions towards one’s darker qualities doesn’t automatically put someone even close to Ramsey-land. At this point, I’m thinking the two Snows are more about comparing and contrasting Westeros’ stereotype of bastards with something closer to reality.

When I think about Ramsey as a comparison, I'm actually seeing a lot of the things Ramsey's done to others as having been done to Jon, not by him. Not sure what to make of that.

Jon hasn’t forced anyone into marriage, but Ygritte was definitely stretching when insisting that she and Jon were married. And Jon looks at his and Ygritte’s sexy times much differently than Jeyne/Ramsey but Ygritte did pressure him when he really didn't want to break his vows, so... I don’t recall where Jon was starved offhand though he does recall Catelyn grudging him every bite of food. Jon was maimed by Othor and very unsettled by this. Jon’s legitimate half brothers were killed or so he thinks. As to the last two in the paragraph, I can see Jon’s invitations to the wildlings going very badly in his absence under Bowen Marsh, but that wouldn't be his fault.

The big difference for me where Jon and Winterfell are concerned when compared to Dany and Tyrion and Casterly Rock is the repressed rage. I don't think Jon will become evil by any stretch, but he may do things that the reader is not comfortable with regarding Winterfell.

Specifically, I can see Jon rationalizing his want of Winterfell to stake his claim over Rickon's with the excuse that Manderly is going for a power-play. No doubt Manderly will reject Jon as regent or whatever the term would be for himself. I can also see Jon using the fight with the Others to rationalize taking Winterfell.  As angry as he is, I think time in Ghost, betrayal, etc will remove a few more layers of that inhibition. Basically, instead of Ramsey, more like King of Winter. Of all the characters in the current story, I see Tywin as the most King of Winter-esque. He's often described as icy, cold, etc.  

I'm still processing on your link. Ramsey becomes very interesting as the would-be murderer of Bran and Rickon, the true heirs, and then we have his attack on Jon, the next true heir bastard or not. I think Bran is a very significant parallel for this particular time for Jon especially as we see Bran through Jon's eyes when one would think we'd a get parent's view of this. And then there's Catelyn's it should have been you. In this case, we almost have Jon being de-bastardized as Jon becomes the threat to Ramsey's bastard claim to Winterfell. If Jon is seen as the "legitmate" heir bastard or not, does this diffuse some of the anger and maybe it signifies a larger role change for him? Bastards in the story are about taking down the status quo which Jon certainly has no trouble doing at the NW (rightly so), so maybe Jon reverses course and takes the establishment side...

I think this is as far as my brain will go right now. 

 

[Lollygag]

 

Hi folks!

Don't really want to be this sort, but there's a topic. Jon's oath to the NW is not it. Please move that discussion somewhere else. 

Thanks!

 

[Tagganaro]

On 3/4/2018 at 1:48 PM, Lollygag said:

He’s not Saint Jon. He never was. There’s a view about the fandom that Jon is selfless, a pureish hero, and it’s a misread of his character. I suspect it being a long time since a new book has been published + the show turning him into an insipid Messianic Disney character has something to do with this. I really like Jon as a character, but I don’t think he’s going to be the bland good-guy snooze-fest who will give us our big Starky fist pump moment as some seem to.

To me there's a big difference between "Saint Jon" and seeing Jon as "selfless and pure-ish."  Like I don't obviously think of Jon as being a saint but I do find him to be pretty selfless and pure-ish, especially as far as characters in ASOIAF go.  Also, mileage may vary, but I don't think there's necessarily a correlation between a character being mostly good and a character being boring.  I find Jon to be interesting mainly because he is a good person stuck navigating an unfair and mostly ungood world in ASOIAF- especially once you bring "ruling" into the equation in terms of him becoming Lord Commander.

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There’s set up for Jon to become a much darker character. Being stabbed, betrayed, and spending too much time in one’s wolf is apt to make this worse. Actually, there’s a lot of set up for most of the characters to become darker, not just Jon, and I will say that the set up for some of the other characters seems to be a darker path than Jon.  When I say there is set up for Jon to become darker, this should probably be kept in perspective with the events in the books and the set up for other characters, as well.

I agree with this.  I think Jon will and should become darker after the events at the end of ADWD.   We may see him finally say enough's enough with the NW and his vows.  Who knows? 

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So if we rightfully abandon the Saint Jon who never existed, what do you see in Jon’s future given that he’s very deeply conflicted? How will what Jon’s gone through (betrayal, stabbing, coma/death/resurrection, spending too much time in Ghost, desperation) affect his future decisions? Given that Jon’s feelings are compared to Tyrion’s and we know how that turned out, how likely is it that Jon’s anger could turn him against one or more of his family under certain circumstances?  Will Jon use rationalization to get Winterfell? If the NW is damned (really looks like it is) and thusly useless against the fight with the Others, will Jon use this as rationalization to steal Winterfell from his siblings? I’ll add that I think wanting Winterfell is more about proving the world wrong about him much like how Tyrion wants Casterly Rock. If Jon comes to see Winterfell as the only way he proves to himself that he is just as good as a true-born, not something to be dumped in the midden heap of the NW, then how might this affect Jon’s decisions and views about Winterfell? I’m quite sure we won’t be getting Saint Jon as he never existed, but I’m equally as sure that Jon won’t turn evil (or as evil as any other character seems set up to be), but as for the broad space between Saint and evil, I’m not sure.

 

I'd say there is about 0% or less than 0% of the bolded happening.  And I'd also go further and say that for all the Stark children...I do not see any conflict directly between them happening (possibly indirect, like if Manderley is manipulating Rickon or something like that).  And I also don't think Jon "wanting Winterfell" is that important to him as a character so I'm not sure I really see it coming THAT much into play...I definitely think Jon's fight is North of Winterfell with the Others, and he may be getting to the point where he realizes being in the NW is not the best spot for him to be in order to save the realm.  

[Texas Hold Em]

I never saw Jon as a saint.  I saw him in much the same  light that I see Theon and Ramsay.  Young men with emotional issues and inferiority complex.  The observation that Jon's decisions are too compromised by his feelings are valid.  That's the cause of his downfall. 

GRRM punishes those who make bad decisions.  I doubt Jon will get to have Winterfell.

[Nevets]

There are a couple of things I am reasonably certain of.

1.  Jon is not actually dead, only seriously injured.  I think he will be in a coma for some time, including the arrival (and departure) of Jeyne Poole.  I think his protective clothing will prevent the daggers from being fatal, but it won't do him any good.

2.  Jon will  lead the fight against the Others.  Whether this is in his capacity as the LC of the Night's Watch or something else (King of the North?) I am unsure of.  I also think the Wall and those manning it (Night's Watch and wildlings) still have a part to play, if only to delay the invasion until help can arrive.  Or at least try to delay it.

3.  Jon will not come into serious conflict with family members.  The Starks aren't the Lannisters.  Even now, they pretty much think nice thoughts about each other.  Rickon being used as a figurehead by somebody could potentially cause problems, although I have doubts that he will actually make it south of the Wall.

[Lost Melnibonean]

9 hours ago, Lollygag said:

To be clear, my intent was never to discuss the show here. Rather, it was to remove show Jon from book Jon which some posters have come to combine somehow (understandably) as I see a lot of statements intended to be about book Jon but which are actually only accurate for show Jon. 

Oh, I thought you were comparing show Jon to book Jon... All of the heroes in ASOIAF, like most of the villains, are pretty flawed. 

[Blackwater Revenant]

23 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Hi folks!

Don't really want to be this sort, but there's a topic. Jon's oath to the NW is not it. Please move that discussion somewhere else. 

Thanks!

With all due respect @Lollygag, but Jon's commitment to upholding his oath and fulfilling his duties to protect the realms of men as a sworn brother of the Watch, is one of the main discerning factors that influenced him to turn down Stannis' offer to make him the Lord of Winterfell. 

You cannot expect to have a discussion in where Jon's childhood desire to have Winterfell is portrayed as an undesirable and condemnatory character trait, and not allow discussion pertaining to him ignoring these desires, and making a selfless sacrifice in order to uphold his oath. 

The fact that he was given a legitimate means to acquire Winterfell (without stealing it), and turned it down due to his oath, I feel, is relevant to assessing whether or not Jon would "attempt to steal Winterfell from his siblings". As well, a false claim that Jon betrayed the Watch, is defamation of his character, and if it were true, would greatly influence my thoughts as to whether or not Jon would be willing to accept Winterfell under the circumstances of it being in opposition of one of his siblings.

[Leo of House Cartel]

@Lollygag

Some interesting analysis you have there.

I agree, Jon is no saint. If nothing else, he's just a soldier.

Warfare is a corrupting influence. Death, uncertainty, the paranoia that "they're getting closer"; all serve to alter one's perception. If anything I'd say Jon was akin to certain "tragic samurai" archetypes like Miyamoto Musashi, Zatoichi or Logan from the X-Men - all too aware of the wrongs he has done, yet firm in his dedication to what he perceives as "the honourable path". The trouble with war is, one soldier's "right way" will always be another's "wrong way".

Considering Jon is faced with the kind of challenge that no one ever really has to deal with (the destruction of the human race by a benign group of demons), I'd say he was doing the best he could.

Capability is something Lord Snow has a great deal of. Look at his movements through the series and you will see not only a high level of skill and resourcefulness, but also a great deal of loyalty, honour and friendship.

• A sad child at WF, uncertain of his parentage yet clearly full of love for his siblings and father.
• Finds a litter of Direwolves (a species not seen south of The Wall in like a century) 
• Bonds with the great wolf and displays Skinchanging abilities - such skills make Jon more powerful than most people, yet he never considers "pulling a Varamyr" and sending Ghost after women, nor does he ever even think about "entering another human's mind". When you think about it, Jon's time inside Ghost is a lot less violent or self serving than Bran/Summer's or Arya/Nymeria's domination and consolidation of wolfpacks.
• Joins the NW, humiliates the other recruits in the yard but is man enough to see the error of his ways, quickly bringing the other lads over to his side and "making them his own men", if you will.
• Protects Sam from bullying.
• Is appalled by the idea of "Mole's Town"
• Is specifically selected by the Lord Commander to be his steward - preparing Jon for rule.
• He kills a wight, maiming his hand and nearly dying in the process - all to save a man he respected
• Goes Beyond the Wall and worries about Gilly and her sisters/nieces, showing human compassion.
• After like a year in the Watch, is told to kill Halfhand and join the Free Folk - a dangerous ploy, yet Snow manages to win the affection of several hardened war chiefs.
• Comes to realise the Free Folk are just people, loses any NW inspired prejudice.
• Falls in love with Yggrite, but is racked by guilt over the breaking of his vows.
• Climbs the Wall and against heavy odds defends the brotherhood against Rayder's army, when he could have just ran away.
• Is elected LC but doesn't use his station to arrogantly flaunt power, instead he takes up residence in Donal's armoury.
• Ends the centuries long war between the Wildlings and Crows - "Jon, The Conciliator"
• Invites the Free Folk through the Wall, as he knows they are doomed otherwise. Saves hundreds if not thousands of lives.
• Gains the trust and services of a Giant, showing his lack of prejudice. 
• Refuses Stannis' WF offer, even though it would have brought him fame, power, riches and perhaps family.
• Allows the baby swap to happen, for fear of the children's safety.
• Saves Alys Karstark from being married and abused by her nuncle.
• Prepares as best he can for a war with ice demons and an army of zombies.
• Sends Mance after Arya, because he is a good brother.
• Plans to defend the Wall against Ramsay by taking the fight to him. 

Now, Jon's desire for Winterfell could be looked at as negative, but such childish wants and jealousy are common place, even in the best of people. When offered Northern rule by Stannis, Jon declines, due to his belief it wouldn't be "right". Keep in mind that Jon is only 13 when the tale begins - any dark thoughts of usurping Winterfell can probably chalked up to the foils of youthful despair/puberty. 

Growing up in a household where you are looked down on by the matriarch and referred to as "The Bastard of Winterfell" by small folk and highborn alike is the kind of youth that breeds bitterness. Jon does fantasise about taking his "father's" castle, but he clearly dislikes doing this. We must keep in mind that more often, Jon dwells on the thought of how much he misses his siblings.

As you said, he's a grey character, flawed and controversial - but fundamentally, a good guy. 

Look at some of the the well respected, fundamentally "good" people who in turn respect Jon and recognise his merit as a good man - Maester Aemon, The Old Bear, Samwell, Donal, such sharp minds can't all be wrong can they?

Furthermore, look at the morally grey, yet capable characters who also respect Lord Snow - Stannis, Val, Mance, Yggrite, Tormund, Thorne (though he wouldn't admit it), Tyrion and many Free Folk - these are all skilled warriors or tacticians, in my estimation their respect of Jon serves as proof that he is the right man to be leading homo-sapiens into the War for The Dawn.

Keep in mind that Snow believes that another Long Night is on the way - no sunshine, no warmth, no crops, only cold blizzards and demons from the dark. Any questionable decisions he has recently made have been done with this knowledge looming over him. Add in the fact that he believes most of his family have been unfairly executed and one can understand why Jon might have a certain darkness to him. Most of us do.

All in all, I'd say Jon's kindness and good deeds heavily outweigh his faults. Yeah, he went against NW regulations with his WF plan and he dreamt of being Lord of his father's castle - but he also protected Sam from bullying, saved the life of Mance's kid, ended a centuries long war and is constantly analysing his own wrongdoings.

[The Commentator]

17 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

No, what I am saying is that a claim that Jon betrayed the Watch is a false one, not supported by anything in the text. Betraying the Watch would entail Jon commiting a deceptive or treacherous act, with the willful attempt to bring down or impede the cause of the Watch. Like I stated, one can argue that Jon's actions were wrong, selfish, or harmful to the Watch, but nothing Jon did was with the intent to impede the Watch, or to betray his brothers.

His decision to save the girl in grey, is not synonymous with him turning his back on his duties. Mayhaps, one can argue that this decision was breaking his oath, but he still had every intent and desire to do what he felt needed to be done, in order to protect the realms of men from the threat posed by the Others.

Jon betrayed the watch.  The Arya Extraction Operation (AEO) was kept in secret because it was wrong and it violated the rules of the NW.  That's betrayal.   And that's before taking into consideration the fact that Jon gave Mance Rayder a pass because he needed the man to run an illegal errand.  Right after he executed a sworn brother for a much, much lesser offense.  The mission to get and hide Arya is illegal.  Allowing Mance to walk is a perversion of justice.  Jon knew it was wrong.  Jon even admits to himself that if one of the brothers faced the same situation with a sister, he would tell him it was no longer his concern.  There is no way around the fact that Jon knowingly chose to do something that went against the rules of the watch and a rule that he himself would have enforced.  Was Jon purposely trying to undermine the watch?  No, he was not.  But he was willing to risk the safety of the watch and everybody in it in order to get his sister away from the Boltons.  Look, Jon is not the smartest of individuals, but even he had to know that taking the wife of a nobleman is an act of war.  It is sufficient provocation for anybody to take action against him.  Jon dragged the NW into a feud with Ramsay and he had no cause to do that.  

[Blackwater Revenant]

17 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Jon betrayed the watch.  The Arya Extraction Operation (AEO) was kept in secret because it was wrong and it violated the rules of the NW.  That's betrayal.   And that's before taking into consideration the fact that Jon gave Mance Rayder a pass because he needed the man to run an illegal errand.  Right after he executed a sworn brother for a much, much lesser offense.  The mission to get and hide Arya is illegal.  Allowing Mance to walk is a perversion of justice.  Jon knew it was wrong.  Jon even admits to himself that if one of the brothers faced the same situation with a sister, he would tell him it was no longer his concern.  There is no way around the fact that Jon knowingly chose to do something that went against the rules of the watch and a rule that he himself would have enforced.  Was Jon purposely trying to undermine the watch?  No, he was not.  But he was willing to risk the safety of the watch and everybody in it in order to get his sister away from the Boltons.  Look, Jon is not the smartest of individuals, but even he had to know that taking the wife of a nobleman is an act of war.  It is sufficient provocation for anybody to take action against him.  Jon dragged the NW into a feud with Ramsay and he had no cause to do that.  

Aside from the fact that you are making factually false accusations - (AEO)  What was this operation? To extract Arya from atop of a dying horse along side a frozen lake? - nothing you are describing is a betrayal.

Did Ramsey betray the Boltons by participating in the illegal and secretive marriage to Jeyne, of which has prompted men to make statements as to them wishing to die bathing in Bolton blood? Did Roose betray the Boltons by participating in the secretive and illegal massacre at the Twins, resulting in the entire North turning against them and plotting their downfall? How about Jofrey, did he betray the Lannisters with his illegal and secretive attempted murder of Bran, which set in motions the events leading up to the wofk? Or Jaime and Cercei, did they betray the Lannisters by engaging in their secretive and illegal affair, of which has led to the circumstances that will bring about the downfall of the Lannister House?

Sorry, but the acts you are accusing Jon of, do not correlate to him betraying the Watch. And in fact, Jon is the one character in the entire series, who has shown he is wholeheartedly committed to upholding his commitment to the Watch.

---

How this pertains to the OP? As I've alluded to up-thread, Jon was given the opportunity to take Winterfell for himself. Despite his desire to rule Winterfell (as laid out in the OP), he refused this offer, as his commitments to his oath and to do what he felt was right, outweighed this desire. Thus, showing that he was not willing to betray the Watch or his oath, in order to obtain Winterfell; Why would he then be willing to betray his siblings, and steal Winterfell from one of them, if he wasn't willing to accept Winterfell by much more honorable and legitimate means?

Jon's desire for Winterfell, is a reflection of his insecurities brought on by him being a bastard, and of him being treated as a second class member of the family. It's also symbolic of his yearning to be accepted as a true Stark, and not stemming from a desire to be a Lord, ruling a castle. Him taking Winterfell away from one of his siblings, by dishonorable means, would not fulfill this longing of his to be accepted as a true Stark.

[Blackwater Revenant]

Oh, and I forgot to ask, did Lord Commander Momont betray the Watch with his decision to not execute Jon for his attempted desertion, or the many brothers who have broken their oaths by visiting Old Town? Of course not, that decision was within his authority as the Lord Commander; As it was within Jon's authority to pardon Mance, as he felt he could be of use to the Night's Watch's cause (unlike Slynt).

The only betrayal, was by Marsh and his cronies, who attempted to assassinate their sworn brother, and Lord Commander, for his attempts to fullfil his duties of protecting the realms of men from the threat that it is the obligation of the Watch to defend against.

[Adam Yozza]

6 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Jon betrayed the watch.  The Arya Extraction Operation (AEO) was kept in secret because it was wrong and it violated the rules of the NW.  That's betrayal.   And that's before taking into consideration the fact that Jon gave Mance Rayder a pass because he needed the man to run an illegal errand.  Right after he executed a sworn brother for a much, much lesser offense.  The mission to get and hide Arya is illegal.  Allowing Mance to walk is a perversion of justice.  Jon knew it was wrong.  Jon even admits to himself that if one of the brothers faced the same situation with a sister, he would tell him it was no longer his concern.  There is no way around the fact that Jon knowingly chose to do something that went against the rules of the watch and a rule that he himself would have enforced.  Was Jon purposely trying to undermine the watch?  No, he was not.  But he was willing to risk the safety of the watch and everybody in it in order to get his sister away from the Boltons.  Look, Jon is not the smartest of individuals, but even he had to know that taking the wife of a nobleman is an act of war.  It is sufficient provocation for anybody to take action against him.  Jon dragged the NW into a feud with Ramsay and he had no cause to do that.  

Nope. It didn't actually. Getting involved with the affairs of the south is not one of the Nights Watch rules. The NW rules are laid out quite clearly in their oaths. Not taking part in events in the south is, at best, tradition. So no, with that, Jon is not breaking any rules, laws or oaths.

Choosing to let Mance go is Jon's choice. He saw Mance as an asset. Slynt wasn't and would only continue to be a problem; he willfully chose the path of insubordination and Jon had no reason to think that he wouldn't continue to disobey orders in the future. That doesn't follow justice as we know it or even as most characters in the story would see it but Jon is about to be facing the one of the biggest threats to humankind on Planetos and can't afford to be dealing with a high ranking officer disobeying orders, just like he can't afford to waste an asset like Mance.

And IIRC, Jon was not stealing Ramsay's wife. At the time he dispatched Mance to rescue the girl at Long Lake, 'Arya' wasn't yet married to Ramsay. Based on Jon's info, she was forcibly betrothed and chose to run away rather than go through with the marriage. As long as Arya doesn't go through with the marriage, she in not Ramsay's property and he has no right to claim her back. Jon, on the other hand, has every right to offer her shelter. But even if I've got the timeline mixed up and 'Arya' was already married to Ramsay before Mel's vision of the girl in grey, no argument can convince me that it would have been right to leave her in his hands. Jon did the right thing, even if he only did it because of his familial relation to his sister.

As for Mance going to Winterfell, that was acting beyond Jon's orders.

Preparing to march south to face Ramsay was almost guaranteed to be a suicide mission. The wildings and rangers had no chance at defeating Ramsay in battle, but they had no other choice anyway. Ramsay had directly threatened the watch, and they had no way to meet his demands even if they wanted to; which, quite rightly, the majority of people at Castle Black did not.

[Blackwater Revenant]

1 hour ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

But he was willing to risk the safety of the watch and everybody in it in order to get his sister away from the Boltons.

How do you know what Jon's plans were, and what he was willing to risk? As far as you know, he planned to have Arya sent off to Essos after Mance brought her back from Long Lake, with Ramsey never knowing a thing about his involvement. Jon had no knowledge of, and nothing to do with Mance going to Winterfell.

[Wolf's Bane]

On 3/4/2018 at 1:48 PM, Lollygag said:

There’s set up for Jon to become a much darker character. Being stabbed, betrayed, and spending too much time in one’s wolf is apt to make this worse. Actually, there’s a lot of set up for most of the characters to become darker, not just Jon, and I will say that the set up for some of the other characters seems to be a darker path than Jon.  When I say there is set up for Jon to become darker, this should probably be kept in perspective with the events in the books and the set up for other characters, as well.

No doubt he won't come back a better person.  I mean, he was already slipping down the dark path for quite some time.  It's a bit like Anakin's extreme feelings for the people he loved made him fearful and he lost his way.  Jon's fears for his family, first for Robb and later for Arya, causes him to break his oaths and betray his sworn brothers.  You might want to search for a subject called "Will Jon Go Mad?"

Jon's weakness for Arya made him vulnerable to make shitty decisions.  The plan to remove Arya from Ramsay's household and take her where Ramsay can't find her was all Jon's.  Mellisandre played the role of temptress, the devil on Jon's shoulder, but it was Jon who was responsible for the decision.  She quickly determined Jon's weakness for Arya and like sweet temptation, she dangled the wildling, Mance Rayder, in front of Jon to tempt him.  Jon knew it was wrong.  He even thinks to himself how he would respond if one of his sworn brothers faced the same choices.  Jon knew it was wrong but the temptation to get Arya from Ramsay was more than he cared to resist.  So far as Winterfell, sure.  Sure, he was able to resist that temptation from Stannis.  It was the temptation to rescue Arya that he was unable to resist.  Jon should stay dead.  I think the story would be better served and fits the theme of people who screw up and break their oaths getting killed.

On 3/4/2018 at 8:22 PM, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Let's start by addressing the sJon, the show version.  That version is heavily bleached to the point that he is no longer the same character.  sJon and bJon are completely different characters and the corporate parent of hbo may have something to do with that.  The actor will have his own show coming up so they will definitely gave him a good send off and have erased anything controversial about his character.  I still don't like Jon on the show.  I don't like Jon in the books. 

The book version of Jon is an average guy with some very big emotional problems.  All you need to do is read the many comments on this forum to get a list of reasons why many of the readers don't like him.  I don't recall any of his critics calling him a saint.  To the contrary, I think they don't like him because he betrayed the watch and broke his oaths. 

Any average boy in his position would dream of owning Winterfell.  That's normal and even a Jon hater like me would not hold that against him if he fantasized becoming its lord.  It's not a sin for Jeyne Poole to fantasize becoming the lady of Winterfell.  Jon wasting his time away fantasizing about inheriting Winterfell is no more wrong than Sansa imagining herself the queen.  Both are woefully inadequate for the job in my opinion.  But they have a right to their fantasies if it makes life a little bit easier to accept.

I would not count out an evil Jon in the story.  His feelings for Arya is unhealthy.  It's an obsession.  Read his later chapters in Dance and he was obsessed with her like someone with prominent OCD.  So what happens if the Lannisters kill Arya?  A Jon who has spent time in a savage animal like direwolf will go all ham and go out for vengeance.  In life, Jon was too attached to the Starks and Arya particularly.  Those feelings led him to betray the wall and his actions will be the downfall of the watch and it will contribute to fall of the wall.  Jon is not really a hero.  He's more of a tragic character who could not keep his feelings under control.  Jon is not coming back a better man.  He's coming back more savage and more like the Weeper than Ned Stark.  I don't think Jon will ever get Winterfell.  That's show fiction to please some of the fans.  I don't think Jon will become king of westeros.  His job is to fight the Others and he, like his direwolf, belongs in the north.  Jon has never left the north and I don't think he will.  He proved he's inadequate as a leader and I don't think he will get another chance to lead again unless it's an army of Wildlings. 

Stannis dangled Winterfell in front of Jon and he passed that test.  It was only when Mellisandre dangled Mance Rayder in front of Jon that he broke down and took steps to get his sister.  I don't think Winterfell, at least up to the time of ADWD, is a big temptation for Jon.  His Achilles' Heel is his strong feelings for Arya and Robb.

[Wolf's Bane]

2 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

How do you know what Jon's plans were, and what he was willing to risk? As far as you know, he planned to have Arya sent off to Essos after Mance brought her back from Long Lake, with Ramsey never knowing a thing about his involvement. Jon had no knowledge of, and nothing to do with Mance going to Winterfell.

Quoting yourself?

By the way, it would have been wrong for Jon to ship Arya off to Essos to get her away from her husband.  That's the equivalent of throwing down the gauntlet and declaring war on Roose and Ramsay Bolton. 

[Blackwater Revenant]

1 hour ago, Wolf's Bane said:

Quoting yourself?

Huh, no. I must have accidentally quoted the comment by @Widowmaker 811from my previous response to him/her.

Quote

By the way, it would have been wrong for Jon to ship Arya off to Essos to get her away from her husband.  That's the equivalent of throwing down the gauntlet and declaring war on Roose and Ramsay Bolton. 

I didn't comment on whether it was right or wrong to do so. I was replying to the assertion that Jon's decision to rescue the girl in grey, put the Watch at risk of retaliation by Ramsey; Which would not have been the case in the scenario that I've suggested. Mance's decision to go to Winterfell put the Watch at risk, not Jon's decision to have a fleeing girl rescued from the shores of Long Lake.

How would that be declaring war, if Ramsey knew nothing about it?

[Yukle]

Hmm... reading through this all, I think there's a point almost everyone agrees on. It's not an all-or-nothing approach to characters. Jon isn't perfect and he's not a villain. He wouldn't be that interesting of a protagonist if he was.

As a person he seems more or less the same as anybody else in the same circumstances, a fairly unremarkable person in most respects. It's the fact that he's a normal person in extraordinary circumstances that makes him a compelling read.

[Lollygag]

On ‎3‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 2:12 AM, Blackwater Revenant said:

With all due respect @Lollygag, but Jon's commitment to upholding his oath and fulfilling his duties to protect the realms of men as a sworn brother of the Watch, is one of the main discerning factors that influenced him to turn down Stannis' offer to make him the Lord of Winterfell. 

You cannot expect to have a discussion in where Jon's childhood desire to have Winterfell is portrayed as an undesirable and condemnatory character trait, and not allow discussion pertaining to him ignoring these desires, and making a selfless sacrifice in order to uphold his oath. 

The fact that he was given a legitimate means to acquire Winterfell (without stealing it), and turned it down due to his oath, I feel, is relevant to assessing whether or not Jon would "attempt to steal Winterfell from his siblings". As well, a false claim that Jon betrayed the Watch, is defamation of his character, and if it were true, would greatly influence my thoughts as to whether or not Jon would be willing to accept Winterfell under the circumstances of it being in opposition of one of his siblings.

I suppose you can make the case that his oath factored into the decision, but after getting stabbed and betrayed, that seems likely to be a lesser priority for him though I think he'll be just as committed to fighting the Others. 

But he declined Winterfell because it came with the decision to cut down the heart tree, not as much for the oath.

You can't be the Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born, he heard Robb say again. And the stone kings were growling at him with granite tongues. You do not belong here. This is not your place. When Jon closed his eyes he saw the heart tree, with its pale limbs, red leaves, and solemn face. The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said . . . but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman's hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods.

 

I'd like to have the discussion you're suggesting, but you know it won't go that way and the OP will no longer bear any relevance to the discussion and a discussion which has been discussed to death lately on several other threads. We've seen through Robb, Catelyn, and Stannis that Jon's oath is no obstacle to his having Winterfell. The KitN and/or RLJ make it seem inevitable that Jon will part from the NW, and it's debatable how long the NW will be around anyhow, either due to Bowen Marsh or the Others. Jon's oath seems more like a debate exercise to me at this point.

[Lollygag]

On ‎3‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 5:46 PM, Tagganaro said:

I'd say there is about 0% or less than 0% of the bolded happening.  And I'd also go further and say that for all the Stark children...I do not see any conflict directly between them happening (possibly indirect, like if Manderley is manipulating Rickon or something like that).  And I also don't think Jon "wanting Winterfell" is that important to him as a character so I'm not sure I really see it coming THAT much into play...I definitely think Jon's fight is North of Winterfell with the Others, and he may be getting to the point where he realizes being in the NW is not the best spot for him to be in order to save the realm.  

I hope you're right, but this seems to not quite fit with what we've received on page so far. I'm not sure that any of them will turn evil and backstab their family, but I definitely can see them disagreeing vehemently as to the right thing to do, what the priority is...etc.

I can see Jon being so burdened by the fight with the Others that he might make decisions against his family as he might be in a situation where he'd believe his choice is either not going against them and letting them die or betraying them and keeping them alive. And his anger might push him to rationalize certain things.

That indirect conflict with Manderly/Rickon can possibly turn very ugly especially if you add Jon's anger/inferiority issues + desperation to fight the Others possibly amplified by the set up from ADWD showing that Bowen Marsh will make Every. Wrong. Decision. when it comes to defending the Wall. 

I was joking a bit with this post, but I very much hold to the point behind it.