Rethinking Saint Jon and Winterfell

[Lollygag]

47 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I would have emphasised this paragraph instead of the one you used.

 

Yeah, I did in an earlier post but still it came back to oaths again. Was trying to not be redundant and this was a direct link to the old gods and Jon's decision. But thanks for providing it again as this thread seems to still be struggling to get past oaths!

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

The argument "Jeyne Poole looks nothing like Jon Snow" is not an argument, but a fact. Yes, it is that simple. What is ludicrous is trying to twist this and conveniently forget that you argued that people would notice a girl who looks like Jon Snow.

 

One last time; he never intended to bring Jeyne Poole to the wall, he did not let loose Mance Rayder to go and retrieve  Jeyne Poole or some random girl who looks nothing like him. He planned to bring Arya Stark to the wall, the fact Mance has gotten the girl Jon had never intended to save doesn't matter-for saving that girl was never Jon's intention in the first place. Jon's  mission to Mance Was to bring Arya Stark who does really look like him to the wall. If Jon succeeded in what he sought out to do, yes a girl who looks a lot like him would be at the wall and doubtless  a lot would take note of their repeated interactions and how similar they look.  Yes its that simple. 

No one said Jeyne Poole looked like Jon. The fact they really don't is pointless to bring up and seems the only reason you're bringing it up is simply to try to rebut the idea of what Jon intended to do as having been something that would put the watch at risk. 

The girl Jon planned to bring to the wall(Arya), looked like Jon. Again simple. 

Hell the only person whose even mentioned Jeyne Poole's looks is you. I made perfectly clear in my original comment(to which anyone could see I have not edited after you quoted a snippet of it)  I was talking about Arya. both would. Whether or not Mance merely picked up Arya  on her way to escape the Boltons, or literally extracted her from Winterfel, there is an actual risk for the watch given if this little endeavor is found out, the brotherhood, the wildling refugees are dead. It's going to be noted that there was a preteen girl who looked a lot like Jon, hung out around him. 

 

The girl who I said looked like Jon has always been Arya Stark-not Jeyne Poole. Stop pointing to a fact I had never tried to contradict in the first place. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

On March 9, 2018 at 4:13 PM, Lollygag said:

Thinking fondly of someone one hasn’t seen or even spoken to in years is very different than meeting that person much changed and interacting with them over some very high-stress situations. Do you see someone you haven't seen since you were both children and assume they are unchanged? That you still know them? People change a great deal through childhood and the teen years.

The Starks will want to trust Jon. But he said kill the boy, let the man be born. It was the boy that the Starks knew. The man, the Lord Commander, and whatever else might affect Jon in his stabbing, is a stranger.

 

The Starks will want to trust Arya. But will they find it easy to trust the FM and their influence on her?

 

The Starks will want to trust Rickon. But will they find it easy to trust the Manderlys and whatever influence the Skagosi may have had on Rickon who is no longer a four year old baby?

 

The Starks will want to trust Sansa. But will they find it easy to trust the influence that the KL Court, the Lannisters and LF have had on her?

 

The Starks will want to trust Bran. But will they find it easy to trust Bloodraven thought to be long dead and his influence on Bran?

 

 

 

Arya and Jon would trust eachother if Jon's resurrection goes about unscathed. Immediately I wager. Their bond is as strong as ever. Sansa never really liked her siblings-I'm sure she loved them but she was never especially close to them-she will be wary especially of Jon and Arya who she really never expressed fond memories of(hell she repeatedly mentions how she still wishes she had a better sister). Jon, I'm pretty sure she never really thought about as far as I can remember. Hell I'm struggling to remember when she's really thought of her other siblings. Then again I found Sansa's chapters boring so yes likely I'm forgetting something. Bran too perhaps given experiences with supernatural forces. Besides Rickon she is really only Stark at this point that has not had some interaction with magic-such things can/will scare a person. 

Rickon is still the youngest so out of everyone I expect him to be trusted the most-mostly because he'd seen as the weakest, easiest to control. We don't know if Ghost's beastly ways will have some residual effect on Jon if/when he's resurected. To be clear the direwolves entirely get their behavior from their masters-so likely nothing would change about Jon's due to that any way no? 

[Lollygag]

12 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Arya and Jon would trust eachother if Jon's resurrection goes about unscathed. Immediately I wager. Their bond is as strong as ever. Sansa never really liked her siblings-I'm sure she loved them but she was never especially close to them-she will be wary especially of Jon and Arya who she really never expressed fond memories of(hell she repeatedly mentions how she still wishes she had a better sister). Jon, I'm pretty sure she never really thought about as far as I can remember. Hell I'm struggling to remember when she's really thought of her other siblings. Then again I found Sansa's chapters boring so yes likely I'm forgetting something. Bran too perhaps given experiences with supernatural forces. Besides Rickon she is really only Stark at this point that has not had some interaction with magic-such things can/will scare a person. 

Rickon is still the youngest so out of everyone I expect him to be trusted the most-mostly because he'd seen as the weakest, easiest to control. We don't know if Ghost's beastly ways will have some residual effect on Jon if/when he's resurected. To be clear the direwolves entirely get their behavior from their masters-so likely nothing would change about Jon's due to that any way no?

 

Jojen's admonishment to Bran to not spend so much time in Summer would indicate that the direwolves don't entirely get their behavior from their Stark. Seems to indicate a more fluid relationship. Varamyr's prologue also indicates otherwise.

I think that Jon is just in a coma more or less like Bran as we saw Bran through Jon's eyes (it should have been you) instead of through either parent which would have been a more expected choice. ADWD also goes on about how close Jon and Ghost have become and Tyrion notes that it seems like Summer was keeping Bran alive. If Jon is resurrected soon, then Ghost's impact might be minimal. But I'm expecting Jon to be in Ghost for some time thus I think Jon will experience what Jojen warned Bran of in that he shouldn't spend too long in Summer lest he become more wolf than man. So I'm seeing Jon's anger raised a notch or several by being in Ghost too long combined with reduced impulse control which was never Jon's strong area to begin with so this is why I think Jon's anger as mentioned in the OP will be important. So...

 

[JaimeLannister;]

I agree with all the deep analysis written so far.

Jon has nothing to do with the classic hero's figure. He is way more negative and his character is all about controverse emotions and melancholy, which drives him on his path since the beginning. That doesn't means he has a villain turn planned just a few step forward. It's only to say that when you take a deeper look at him, you'll find out he is far from that stereotype. 

[Rosetta Stone]

On 3/10/2018 at 9:13 PM, Agent Orange said:

What's important is Jon's intentions and it is an indicator of his thought process.  He was planning to take Arya to the wall and to later keep her away from her husband.  That act is not in the best interest of the NW.  Ramsay and everyone on the outside will assume the NW is sticking its nose where it doesn't belong.  Yeah, that act will put the men of the night's watch in danger.  Jon was basically putting his brothers in danger for the sake of the girl whom he thought was Arya.  

It is possible to sympathize with Jon but condemn him at the same time.  Jon's fans see him as a man trying to help his sister and they're not seeing the other side.  Everybody needs to understand that Jon put everybody else's sister in danger in order to help his.  Arguing  and digging through every word in those chapters is not going to change anything.  Jon was going to take Arya away from Ramsay.  That's going to bring down Bolton wrath on the wall.  That can only hurt the night's watch and puts everybody on his side of the wall in danger.  I have a little sympathy for Jon but I condemn him for what he did.  Jon was wrong and he acted irresponsibly, to say the least.  What he did was treason.

[Night Train to Kathmandu]

On 3/4/2018 at 1:48 PM, Lollygag said:

 

 

 

 

Winterfell is a Bolton castle now.  It is no longer the Stark's to fight over.  Sansa is making a new life for herself with a new identity.  Arya has no identity and just wants to kill people.  Bran is living in a cave on the Other side.  Rickon is growing up with savages and developing a taste for human flesh if the rumors about Skagos are true.  Most important of all, Jon is dead.  Jon is not going to care about castles because he's dead.  He's free from all the cares of the world.  

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

On 11/03/2018 at 5:03 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

On 10/03/2018 at 0:13 AM, Lollygag said:

Sorry Lollygag I didn't mean to pick up the quote box for you too. 

Arya and Jon would trust eachother if Jon's resurrection goes about unscathed. Immediately I wager. Their bond is as strong as ever. Sansa never really liked her siblings-I'm sure she loved them but she was never especially close to them-she will be wary especially of Jon and Arya who she really never expressed fond memories of(hell she repeatedly mentions how she still wishes she had a better sister). Jon, I'm pretty sure she never really thought about as far as I can remember. Hell I'm struggling to remember when she's really thought of her other siblings. Then again I found Sansa's chapters boring so yes likely I'm forgetting something. Bran too perhaps given experiences with supernatural forces. Besides Rickon she is really only Stark at this point that has not had some interaction with magic-such things can/will scare a person. 

Rickon is still the youngest so out of everyone I expect him to be trusted the most-mostly because he'd seen as the weakest, easiest to control. We don't know if Ghost's beastly ways will have some residual effect on Jon if/when he's resurected. To be clear the direwolves entirely get their behavior from their masters-so likely nothing would change about Jon's due to that any way no? 

I've not read the thread, so please excuse me if I'm responding to this having missed some earlier discussion.  I read the OP. 

Are we certain Jon will be resurrected? I'm really not so sure. Prior to that which shall not be named airing I maintained that he'll survive. I accepted it due to the abomination. However having had time to seriously consider things I think they just did that for their own reasons. They don't give a shit about integrity to the story so I don't put it past them. But thinking about the fact that when in the past they have revealed a bog fan discussed debated point they have said GRRM told us about this. Such as burning  Shireen or revealing the origins of Hodor' name. But they did not do that about Jon.  Mellisandre herself may well be a Fire Wight (evidenced by the fact she is hundreds of years old, does not require food or water, barely has to sleep/rest, and talks about the flame inside her.) And if she is I don't see how her giving the fire kiss to Jon would work, she'd end up like Beric after he passes his on to Cat. And I don't think her part in the story feels almost finished. GRRM has told us that Fire Wights blood is not pumped around their bodies. And he also hinted that the Dany-Jon  love affair will happen, evidence of the books tells us this too The sweet smelling blue rose is grouped into the bridal section of Dany's shade of the evening induced prophetic trip. But if he's a fire wight he can't get an erection. Male anatomy works via blood being pumped to the penis. Yes.  

As to Sansa yes she has fond memories and thoughts about both Arya & Jon she thinks of them both. 

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But this man had been crookbacked and hideous, and he looked as though he might have lice. If this was what the Night's Watch was truly like, she felt sorry for her bastard half brother, Jon. "Father asked if there were any knights in the hall who would do honor to their houses by taking the black, but no one came forward, so he gave this Yoren his pick of the king's dungeons and sent him on his way. And later these two brothers came before him, freeriders from the Dornish Marches, and pledged their swords to the service of the king. Father accepted their oaths …"

Here she feels sympathy for Jon, and if you read between the lines she is expressing concern for him and the circumstances in the watch being not as they believed.

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She sang for mercy, for the living and the dead alike, for Bran and Rickon and Robb, for her sister Arya and her bastard brother Jon Snow, away off on the Wall. She sang for her mother and her father, for her grandfather Lord Hoster and her uncle Edmure Tully, for her friend Jeyne Poole, for old drunken King Robert, for Septa Mordane and Ser Dontos and Jory Cassel and Maester Luwin, for all the brave knights and soldiers who would die today, and for the children and the wives who would mourn them, and finally, toward the end, she even sang for Tyrion the Imp and for the Hound. He is no true knight but he saved me all the same, she told the Mother. Save him if you can, and gentle the rage inside him.

Here she prays for both Arya & Jon. 

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Oh, and the Night's Watch has a boy commander, some bastard son of Eddard Stark's."

"Jon Snow?" she blurted out, surprised.

"Snow? Yes, it would be Snow, I suppose."

She had not thought of Jon in ages. He was only her half brother, but still . . . with Robb and Bran and Rickon dead, Jon Snow was the only brother that remained to her. I am a bastard too now, just like him. Oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again. But of course that could never be. Alayne Stone had no brothers, baseborn or otherwise.

Here she automatically exclaims Jon Snow, and then thinks about how sweet it would be to see him now, and also considers the position he had in their home as a bastard& what that truly meant for him. And she laments having no brothers as Alayne.

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Her gown was the ivory silk that the queen had given her, the one Arya had ruined, but she'd had them dye it black and you couldn't see the stain at all. 

She thinks of Arya as she dresses to beg for their fathers life.

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 Sansa even missed her sister. By now Arya was safe back in Winterfell, dancing and sewing, playing with Bran and baby Rickon, even riding through the winter town if she liked. 

She imagines her safe back in Winterfell. 

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Sansa found herself thinking of Lady again. She could smell out falsehood, she could, but she was dead, Father had killed her, on account of Arya. She drew the knife and held it before her with both hands.

She thinks of her in perhaps not so pleasant circumstances; missing her wolf. When she is drawing on her bravery in order to pull her knife in the godswood. 

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He'd owned a sword named Lion's Tooth once, Sansa remembered. Arya had taken it from him and thrown it in a river. I hope Stannis does the same with this one. 

She thinks of her when Joffrey presents his new sword and hopes that Stannis will take the same action Arya did. 

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She sang for mercy, for the living and the dead alike, for Bran and Rickon and Robb, for her sister Arya and her bastard brother Jon Snow, away off on the Wall

Again that prayer. 

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nd little Lady Bulwer reminded her of Arya, though not so fierce.

She thinks of her when she meets the Tyrell girls.

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Sansa had once dreamt of having a sister like Margaery; beautiful and gentle, with all the world's graces at her command. Arya had been entirely unsatisfactory as sisters went. 

And again when considering what to tell them about Joff. Now this seems negative, but put it in context. She has just favourable compared Arya to one of the Tyrell girls. She said but not so fierce and that ferocity is implied to have been a good trait in Arya; she wanted Stannis to be as fierce as her sister and throw Joffreys sword into the water remember. And here she thinks of Arya,and thinks she could not let her sister marry Joffrey. So although she puts in the proviso that Arya was unsatisfactory as a sister. The underlying truth is she loves her sister and is concerned with her fate. 

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 her children looked just like the brothers she had lost. Sometimes there was even a girl who looked like Arya.

Here she fantasises about a daughter just like Arya. 

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I mustbe brave. Her torments would soon be ended, one way or the other. If Lady was here, I would not be afraid. Lady was dead, though; Robb, Bran, Rickon, Arya, her father, her mother, even Septa Mordane. All of them are dead but me. She was alone in the world now.

Here she has accepted Arya is dead and she's mourning her but also note drawing on her memory for bravery.

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Sansa remembered Lion's Tooth, the sword Arya had flung into the Trident, and Hearteater, the one he'd made her kiss before the battle. She wondered if he'd want Margaery to kiss this one.

Here we're back to swords and again she thinks of Arya and her defiance, she thinks next of her own compliance; even though shehad no choice I suspect a small part of Sansa wishes she could have been as rebellious as her sister. Next she thinks will he make Margaery kiss this one. IE: Will Marge bow down and do as she is told or will she defy him and be his undoing.  

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She had dreamt that she was little, still sharing a bedchamber with her sister Arya. But it was her maid she heard tossing in sleep, not her sister, and this was not Winterfell, but the Eyrie. And I am Alayne Stone, a bastard girl. The room was cold and black, though she was warm beneath the blankets. 

Here she is really missing Arya, and their home, and life before it all went wrong. 

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She had last seen snow the day she'd left Winterfell. That was a lighter fall than this, she remembered. Robb had melting flakes in his hair when he hugged me, and the snowball Arya tried to make kept coming apart in her hands. It hurt to remember how happy she had been that morning. Hullen had helped her mount, and she'd ridden out with the snowflakes swirling around her, off to see the great wide world. I thought my song was beginning that day, but it was almost done.

This one is the melancholy memory that almost all the siblings recount. Again her sister is noted and remembered. 

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Sansa began to make snowballs, shaping and smoothing them until they were round and white and perfect. She remembered a summer's snow in Winterfell when Arya and Bran had ambushed her as she emerged from the keep one morning. They'd each had a dozen snowballs to hand, and she'd had none. Bran had been perched on the roof of the covered bridge, out of reach, but Sansa had chased Arya through the stables and around the kitchen until both of them were breathless. She might even have caught her, but she'd slipped on some ice. Her sister came back to see if she was hurt. When she said she wasn't, Arya hit her in the face with another snowball, but Sansa grabbed her leg and pulled her down and was rubbing snow in her hair when Jory came along and pulled them apart, laughing.

Another memory, this time full of joy and happiness and Arya takes centre stage.

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Spoiler

For just a little while, as she ran, she forget who she was, and where, and found herself remembering bright cold days at Winterfell, when she would race through Winterfell with her friend Jeyne Poole, with Aryarunning after them trying to keep up.

 

That last one is from TWOW. And again it is a happy joyfull memory of her sister. 

 

So you can see they both are on her mind a lot. She has fond memories, longings, mourning, concern, hopes, etc involving them both. And Bran,Rickon, and Robb too. 

You are right to say you are forgetting things. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

11 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I've not read the thread, so please excuse me if I'm responding to this having missed some earlier discussion.  I read the OP. 

Are we certain Jon will be resurrected? I'm really not so sure. Prior to that which shall not be named airing I maintained that he'll survive. I accepted it due to the abomination. However having had time to seriously consider things I think they just did that for their own reasons. They don't give a shit about integrity to the story so I don't put it past them. But thinking about the fact that when in the past they have revealed a bog fan discussed debated point they have said GRRM told us about this. Such as burning  Shireen or revealing the origins of Hodor' name. But they did not do that about Jon.  Mellisandre herself may well be a Fire Wight (evidenced by the fact she is hundreds of years old, does not require food or water, barely has to sleep/rest, and talks about the flame inside her.) And if she is I don't see how her giving the fire kiss to Jon would work, she'd end up like Beric after he passes his on to Cat. And I don't think her part in the story feels almost finished. GRRM has told us that Fire Wights blood is not pumped around their bodies. And he also hinted that the Dany-Jon  love affair will happen, evidence of the books tells us this too The sweet smelling blue rose is grouped into the bridal section of Dany's shade of the evening induced prophetic trip. But if he's a fire wight he can't get an erection. Male anatomy works via blood being pumped to the penis. Yes.  

As to Sansa yes she has fond memories and thoughts about both Arya & Jon she thinks of them both. 

Here she feels sympathy for Jon, and if you read between the lines she is expressing concern for him and the circumstances in the watch being not as they believed.

Here she prays for both Arya & Jon. 

Here she automatically exclaims Jon Snow, and then thinks about how sweet it would be to see him now, and also considers the position he had in their home as a bastard& what that truly meant for him. And she laments having no brothers as Alayne.

She thinks of Arya as she dresses to beg for their fathers life.

She imagines her safe back in Winterfell. 

She thinks of her in perhaps not so pleasant circumstances; missing her wolf. When she is drawing on her bravery in order to pull her knife in the godswood. 

She thinks of her when Joffrey presents his new sword and hopes that Stannis will take the same action Arya did. 

Again that prayer. 

She thinks of her when she meets the Tyrell girls.

And again when considering what to tell them about Joff. Now this seems negative, but put it in context. She has just favourable compared Arya to one of the Tyrell girls. She said but not so fierce and that ferocity is implied to have been a good trait in Arya; she wanted Stannis to be as fierce as her sister and throw Joffreys sword into the water remember. And here she thinks of Arya,and thinks she could not let her sister marry Joffrey. So although she puts in the proviso that Arya was unsatisfactory as a sister. The underlying truth is she loves her sister and is concerned with her fate. 

Here she fantasises about a daughter just like Arya. 

Here she has accepted Arya is dead and she's mourning her but also note drawing on her memory for bravery.

Here we're back to swords and again she thinks of Arya and her defiance, she thinks next of her own compliance; even though shehad no choice I suspect a small part of Sansa wishes she could have been as rebellious as her sister. Next she thinks will he make Margaery kiss this one. IE: Will Marge bow down and do as she is told or will she defy him and be his undoing.  

Here she is really missing Arya, and their home, and life before it all went wrong. 

This one is the melancholy memory that almost all the siblings recount. Again her sister is noted and remembered. 

Another memory, this time full of joy and happiness and Arya takes centre stage.

That last one is from TWOW. And again it is a happy joyfull memory of her sister. 

 

So you can see they both are on her mind a lot. She has fond memories, longings, mourning, concern, hopes, etc involving them both. And Bran,Rickon, and Robb too. 

You are right to say you are forgetting things. 

Is there a thread in the show forum that talks about the spoilers The George revealed to tweedle dee and tweedle dum? 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

2 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Besides Rickon she is really only Stark at this point that has not had some interaction with magic-such things can/will scare a person. 

I wanted to address this section too. Sansa may have had more interaction with magic that it first appears. When we examine her recollections of Lady it becomes clear that just as with the other siblings she was having some early warg experiences. 

Lets begin with her bond with the Wolf. 

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Septa Mordane sniffed in disapproval. "A noble lady does not feed dogs at her table," she said, breaking off another piece of comb and letting the honey drip down onto her bread.

"She's not a dog, she's a direwolf," Sansa pointed out as Lady licked her fingers with a rough tongue. "Anyway, Father said we could keep them with us if we want."

The septa was not appeased. "You're a good girl, Sansa, but I do vow, when it comes to that creature you're as willful as your sister Arya." She scowled. "And where is Arya this morning?"

Here we see she is just as wilful as Arya when it comes to Lady. This is out of character for Sansa so we can tell she is strongly bonded to the animal; so strongly that it makes her act out of alignment with her usual nature. 

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Sansa slid from the bench. Lady followed at her heels as she ran from the inn's common room.

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 Lady brushed against her leg. Sansa scratched her ears the way she liked, and Lady sat beside her on her haunches, watching Arya chase Nymeria.

These two quotes demonstrate the strength of their bond. Lady is fully Sansa's animal here and she is loyal to her, and resists the natural urge to go chase with Nymeria and Arya even. The scene itself mirrors that too, Sansa is trying to persuade Arya to join her in the wheelhouse and even thinks of herself as behaving all adult and reasnoble. And asks why Arya would want to ride; an activity which is exhilarating, physical, & and can instil a sense of freedom.  The scene is telling us how much Sansa is striving to be an adult a lady etc. But it serves also to show how the bond with Lady is just as strong as that of the other siblings and their wolves. 

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Anxious to see, Sansa let Lady clear a path through the crowd. People moved aside hastily for the direwolf. 

Sansa thinks she is letting Lady cut a path towards the centre of the crowd. But Lady is in fact acting as proxy for Sansa. Sansa is anxious to see what all the fuss is about, Lady does her bidding and goes into the crowd ahead of her, clearing her path. She is acting at Sansa's unspoken behest. Showing the link between them. 

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Sansa could not take her eyes off the third man. He seemed to feel the weight of her gaze. Slowly he turned his head. Lady growled. A terror as overwhelming as anything Sansa Stark had ever felt filled her suddenly. 

Again Sansa is afraid of Ilyn she doesn't like the look of him at all, Lady growls for her. 

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Strong hands grasped her by the shoulders, and for a moment Sansa thought it was her father, but when she turned, it was the burned face of Sandor Clegane looking down at her, his mouth twisted in a terrible mockery of a smile. "You are shaking, girl," he said, his voice rasping. "Do I frighten you so much?"

He did, and had since she had first laid eyes on the ruin that fire had made of his face, though it seemed to her now that he was not half so terrifying as the other. Still, Sansa wrenched away from him, and the Hound laughed, and Lady moved between them, rumbling a warning. Sansa dropped to her knees to wrap her arms around the wolf. They were all gathered around gaping, she could feel their eyes on her, and here and there she heard muttered comments and titters of laughter.

"A wolf," a man said, and someone else said, "Seven hells, that's a direwolf," and the first man said, "What's it doing in camp?" and the Hound's rasping voice replied, "The Starks use them for wet nurses," and Sansa realized that the two stranger knights were looking down on her and Lady, swords in their hands, and then she was frightened again, and ashamed. Tears filled her eyes.

That quote leads into this one. ANd it is interesting too, it can be interpreted that Sansa had some sort of premonition about Ilyn, Lady again acts for Sansa in that she moves between her and Sandor in a protective, warning manner. But the bit I think is interesting is the latter part, it is almost as though she feels ashamed of herself- as a warg. She is surrounded by people laughing at her, she is afraid, men have their swords drawn and are threatening her wolf, they're questioning it's place in their company; Sansa feels afraid and ashamed. It could be about her own feelings, A warg has no place in fancy court society, she is afraid of being laughed at by people if say she shared the feelings/dreams she has regarding Lady. She adopts a protective posture towards her wolf, but simultaneously uses her wolf to protect herself. And The Hounds words highlight the differences culturally between her world in the North and these "fine" Southern socialites she is amongst now. She feels shame for what she is, both out of place northerner and warg. Fear that they might reject her, fear of being discovered as a warg, and shame that she is one. 

Don't get me wrong it's subtle as fuck and interpretive but I think it is there. These chapters are all about Sansa evaluating who she is. How she behaves, her goals, her defiance of her true nature. Both defying her very childhood; she's on the cusp here between childhood and adolesance. And the new feelings about her Direwolf and what might be going on that isn't on the page. ie dreams. 

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. Sansa struggled to steady herself. She felt like such a fool. She was a Stark of Winterfell, a noble lady, and someday she would be a queen. 

My interpretation is reinforced by the lines that follow.She has to pull herself together and remind herself her position is perfectly secure. And that she has been given a place of the absolute highest esteem in this new slightly alien southern culture, that of Queen. But bellow Renly even calls her wolf girl, and reiterates that she is Ned Starks daughter, a northerner.He's saying that but also testing her southern type skills of heraldry knowledge etc.

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"Now, wolf girl, if you can put a name to me as well, then I must concede that you are truly our Hand's daughter."

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Sansawas beginning to feel comfortable … until Ser Ilyn Payne shouldered two men aside, and stood before her, unsmiling. He did not say a word. Lady bared her teeth and began to growl, a low rumble full of menace, but this time Sansa silenced the wolf with a gentle hand to the head. 

Another illistration of how the magic is there in Sansa's story, hereis Lady once again acting on Sansa's emotions. Showing the warg bond. 

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Joffrey glanced back at Lady, who was following at their heels. "Your wolf is liable to frighten the horses, and my dog seems to frighten you. Let us leave them both behind and set off on our own, what do you say?"

Sansa hesitated. "If you like," she said uncertainly. "I suppose I could tie Lady up." 

This quote isn't about the magic of the warg bond so much directly as it is an illustration of the war within Sansa in this chapter Joffrey is imploring her to leave Lady behind. Leave her wolf, the part of her that belongs to the world of magic and the north, the old gods etc. Sansa doesn't say yes she will leave it behind note; she says she supposes she could tie her up. She's tied her magical side up for now. It's restrained, not let go of.

Quote

Sansa sat up. "Lady," she whispered. For a moment it was as if the direwolf was there in the room, looking at her with those golden eyes, sad and knowing. She had been dreaming, she realized. Lady was with her, and they were running together, and … and … trying to remember was like trying to catch the rain with her fingers. The dream faded, and Lady was dead again.

This is a strong indicator that she was indeed on the path to warging Lady, it is almost like a wolf dream, she dreams her wolf is there and tehn they are running together, is it together or is she recalling a previous wolf dream where she is running in Lady? She tries to remember the dream but it slips away and Lady is dead again. 

Quote

If they catch me now, they'll strip the skin off my back."

And what will they do to me? Sansa found herself thinking of Lady again. She could smell out falsehood,

This one too, Cersei wanted to strip the skin from Lady's back, literally. Then Sansa thinks of Lady, and that she could smell a lie. How does Sans know this? It has to have been through the warg-wolf bond.  

Quote

That was such a sweet dream, Sansa thought drowsily. She had been back in Winterfell, running through the godswood with her Lady. Her father had been there, and her brothers, all of them warm and safe. If only dreaming could make it so . . .

Another sdemi wolf dream, I suspect these are like recurring dreams of her wolf dreams. IYSWIM. 

THen there are two ocasions linked with the Hound and Lady, one when she feels a form on her bed and thinks it of Lady, but it is Sandor, then shedreams of Sandor and awakes to theold dog and thinks for a second it is Lady. 

There is something peculiar going on there, undoubtedly. 

Next we can look at birds. There is an incident in KL where Sansa and Largaery go hawking together but it is off page. Sansa chooses a Merlin, which is the smallest bird of pray in Europe. SO a "little bird" Sansa is strongly asociated with birds and this has led many to believe she might skinchange a bird. I'm putting my money on a Merlin. Not only is it a little bird but the name is irrevocably linked to magic. Merlin was reputed to be able to slip inside animals and birds too. The scene takes place off page so we conveniently do not see first hand how that interaction went. But then at the Eyrie Sansa has a weird dream where she physically see's Merillion in his sky cell. The Eyrie is surrounded by Falcons which she has spent a great deal of time watching and thinking about how lovely it would be to be one of them etc. Might be she really did slip into one momentarily. 

Next the descent from the Eyrie where she pulls upon the spirit of her wolf to gather the strength and bravery to tackle the mountain and keep Robert on the path. She hears the wolf

Quote

She helped the boy dismount, and hand in hand they walked out onto the bare stone saddle, their cloaks snapping and flapping behind them. All around was empty air and sky, the ground falling away sharply to either side. There was ice underfoot, and broken stones just waiting to turn an ankle, and the wind was howling fiercely. It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa. A ghost wolf, big as mountains.

THe imagary here supports the idea of this wolf girl adopting a bird too, she's leading Robert Arryn by the hand, he is symbolic of Falcons and birds as both an Arryn & Sweet Robin. The cloaks snap and flap like wings, the sky is all around them, empty skies, as though they were truly flying and the wind (air)howls fiercely all around them, sounding like a wolf, like a giant mountain sized ghost wolf. Here she draws on the strength of her dead wolf, of her magic, the mountain again merging the wolf falcon imagary as the Mountain is tied to those wild falcons who circle it. So we've had her as a bird flying in the air and the air as ferocious howls, sounding like a wolf then the wolf as a mountain where Falcons live. 

She is of course now in the Vale home of falconry where she may again go try her hand at hawking and interact directly with another bird; probably as I said a Merlin. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Is there a thread in the show forum that talks about the spoilers The George revealed to tweedle dee and tweedle dum? 

no idea, I don't bother with the show forum. I'm only going on what I've heard within the fandom in general. As a rule of thumb each time something they have done is a direct told to us by GRRM they mention it in some magazine interview or other. And it gets posted all over the facebook groups. Where the crossover between the two groups of fans, book & show is much more interwoven. 

[Lollygag]

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Is there a thread in the show forum that talks about the spoilers The George revealed to tweedle dee and tweedle dum? 

Not sure if there is or not, but it might be interesting. However, they lost what little credibility they might have had with me when they both forgot that Sam was a POV character and the actor who plays Sam had to correct them.  

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

no idea, I don't bother with the show forum. I'm only going on what I've heard within the fandom in general. As a rule of thumb each time something they have done is a direct told to us by GRRM they mention it in some magazine interview or other. And it gets posted all over the facebook groups. Where the crossover between the two groups of fans, book & show is much more interwoven. 

 

58 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Not sure if there is or not, but it might be interesting. However, they lost what little credibility they might have had with me when they both forgot that Sam was a POV character and the actor who plays Sam had to correct them.  

For me those little tidbits are like SSMs. The only two I am aware of are 

Spoiler

Hodor and Shireen

so I am wondering if there are others. 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

Not sure if there is or not, but it might be interesting. However, they lost what little credibility they might have had with me when they both forgot that Sam was a POV character and the actor who plays Sam had to correct them.  

Ooh, I’ve seen that talk as well. Jaw dropping hilarious 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

They make me want to bang both their heads together. 

But yes as far as I am aware there have only been those two things and given they have said this came from GRRM. and yes. It's a bit like a SSM. Isn't it. I'd say that Jon fire wight is possibly their own invention. I mean they've been forthcoming about other GRRM given events so why not that one? And as I said no blood flow no erection. And GRRM has hinted the romance between Dany & Jon is an in book thing, which we can also surmise from the fact his fragrant blue rose from the chink in the wall of ice imagary falls under Dany's bridal segment in her Shade of the evening trip. 

[Alora]

On 3/21/2018 at 8:20 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Is there a thread in the show forum that talks about the spoilers The George revealed to tweedle dee and tweedle dum? 

I don't know if this is helpful or what you're referring to, but this interview with Benioff & Weiss talks about the stuff GRRM revealed to them:

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/05/24/george-rr-martin-3-twists-game-thrones/

(ETA: NP!! :D)

[Lost Melnibonean]

19 minutes ago, Alora said:

I don't know if this is helpful or what you're referring to, but this interview with Benioff & Weiss talk about the stuff GRRM revealed to them:

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/05/24/george-rr-martin-3-twists-game-thrones/

Thanks. I will check it out when I get a chance! 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Right, I'm calling it. There is no fire wight Jon in the books. 

They say in that interview that GRRM gave them three holy shit moments and that the first is Shireen Burning, the second is Hodor's name reveal, and the third. 

And the third shocking moment?

“… is from the very end…,” Benioff teased.

From the VERY end. Not Jon's resurection. So GRRM did not reveal it and so they have likley made it up.