Rethinking Saint Jon and Winterfell

[Lollygag]

On ‎3‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 4:24 AM, Leo of House Cartel said:

Warfare is a corrupting influence. Death, uncertainty, the paranoia that "they're getting closer"; all serve to alter one's perception. If anything I'd say Jon was akin to certain "tragic samurai" archetypes like Miyamoto Musashi, Zatoichi or Logan from the X-Men - all too aware of the wrongs he has done, yet firm in his dedication to what he perceives as "the honourable path". The trouble with war is, one soldier's "right way" will always be another's "wrong way".

You put into words something that hadn't quite risen to the surface for me! I do think this will play a big part in Jon's future. 

On ‎3‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 4:24 AM, Leo of House Cartel said:

Considering Jon is faced with the kind of challenge that no one ever really has to deal with (the destruction of the human race by a benign group of demons), I'd say he was doing the best he could.

Capability is something Lord Snow has a great deal of. Look at his movements through the series and you will see not only a high level of skill and resourcefulness, but also a great deal of loyalty, honour and friendship.

• A sad child at WF, uncertain of his parentage yet clearly full of love for his siblings and father.
• Finds a litter of Direwolves (a species not seen south of The Wall in like a century) 
• Bonds with the great wolf and displays Skinchanging abilities - such skills make Jon more powerful than most people, yet he never considers "pulling a Varamyr" and sending Ghost after women, nor does he ever even think about "entering another human's mind". When you think about it, Jon's time inside Ghost is a lot less violent or self serving than Bran/Summer's or Arya/Nymeria's domination and consolidation of wolfpacks.
• Joins the NW, humiliates the other recruits in the yard but is man enough to see the error of his ways, quickly bringing the other lads over to his side and "making them his own men", if you will.
• Protects Sam from bullying.
• Is appalled by the idea of "Mole's Town"
• Is specifically selected by the Lord Commander to be his steward - preparing Jon for rule.
• He kills a wight, maiming his hand and nearly dying in the process - all to save a man he respected
• Goes Beyond the Wall and worries about Gilly and her sisters/nieces, showing human compassion.
• After like a year in the Watch, is told to kill Halfhand and join the Free Folk - a dangerous ploy, yet Snow manages to win the affection of several hardened war chiefs.
• Comes to realise the Free Folk are just people, loses any NW inspired prejudice.
• Falls in love with Yggrite, but is racked by guilt over the breaking of his vows.
• Climbs the Wall and against heavy odds defends the brotherhood against Rayder's army, when he could have just ran away.
• Is elected LC but doesn't use his station to arrogantly flaunt power, instead he takes up residence in Donal's armoury.
• Ends the centuries long war between the Wildlings and Crows - "Jon, The Conciliator"
• Invites the Free Folk through the Wall, as he knows they are doomed otherwise. Saves hundreds if not thousands of lives.
• Gains the trust and services of a Giant, showing his lack of prejudice. 
• Refuses Stannis' WF offer, even though it would have brought him fame, power, riches and perhaps family.
• Allows the baby swap to happen, for fear of the children's safety.
• Saves Alys Karstark from being married and abused by her nuncle.
• Prepares as best he can for a war with ice demons and an army of zombies.
• Sends Mance after Arya, because he is a good brother.
• Plans to defend the Wall against Ramsay by taking the fight to him. 

Now, Jon's desire for Winterfell could be looked at as negative, but such childish wants and jealousy are common place, even in the best of people. When offered Northern rule by Stannis, Jon declines, due to his belief it wouldn't be "right". Keep in mind that Jon is only 13 when the tale begins - any dark thoughts of usurping Winterfell can probably chalked up to the foils of youthful despair/puberty. 

Growing up in a household where you are looked down on by the matriarch and referred to as "The Bastard of Winterfell" by small folk and highborn alike is the kind of youth that breeds bitterness. Jon does fantasise about taking his "father's" castle, but he clearly dislikes doing this. We must keep in mind that more often, Jon dwells on the thought of how much he misses his siblings.

As you said, he's a grey character, flawed and controversial - but fundamentally, a good guy. 

Look at some of the the well respected, fundamentally "good" people who in turn respect Jon and recognise his merit as a good man - Maester Aemon, The Old Bear, Samwell, Donal, such sharp minds can't all be wrong can they?

Furthermore, look at the morally grey, yet capable characters who also respect Lord Snow - Stannis, Val, Mance, Yggrite, Tormund, Thorne (though he wouldn't admit it), Tyrion and many Free Folk - these are all skilled warriors or tacticians, in my estimation their respect of Jon serves as proof that he is the right man to be leading homo-sapiens into the War for The Dawn.

Keep in mind that Snow believes that another Long Night is on the way - no sunshine, no warmth, no crops, only cold blizzards and demons from the dark. Any questionable decisions he has recently made have been done with this knowledge looming over him. Add in the fact that he believes most of his family have been unfairly executed and one can understand why Jon might have a certain darkness to him. Most of us do.

All in all, I'd say Jon's kindness and good deeds heavily outweigh his faults. Yeah, he went against NW regulations with his WF plan and he dreamt of being Lord of his father's castle - but he also protected Sam from bullying, saved the life of Mance's kid, ended a centuries long war and is constantly analysing his own wrongdoings.

I very much agree with this but there's a premise in here that Jon will undergo no significant changes in his character.

A great many characters are poised to make very significant changes as of the end of ADWD, so in general, I'm hesitant to use their past behavior as a predictor of their future behaviors. I suspect the deeper traits/wants/fears/etc are likely to rise to surface with a number of them and they will look very changed to the reader. Not that they'll be completely changed and their past wiped out, but I suspect a sharp turn-around for most of the character arcs hence my asking questions about Jon. I think Dany, Tyrion, and Theon are a bit ahead of Jon in this development. With Dany and Tyrion especially, feeling long buried have come to the surface. Theon, long buried is rising to the surface from Reek. Jaime, Cersei, and Brienne are on the verge of a very significant change. Sansa and Arya seem poised to make significant changes in their TWOW preview chapters. 

[Lollygag]

On ‎3‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 10:04 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Oh, I thought you were comparing show Jon to book Jon... All of the heroes in ASOIAF, like most of the villains, are pretty flawed. 

I can see how it came off that way. My bad. 

[Lollygag]

On ‎3‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 6:24 PM, Nevets said:

There are a couple of things I am reasonably certain of.

1.  Jon is not actually dead, only seriously injured.  I think he will be in a coma for some time, including the arrival (and departure) of Jeyne Poole.  I think his protective clothing will prevent the daggers from being fatal, but it won't do him any good.

2.  Jon will  lead the fight against the Others.  Whether this is in his capacity as the LC of the Night's Watch or something else (King of the North?) I am unsure of.  I also think the Wall and those manning it (Night's Watch and wildlings) still have a part to play, if only to delay the invasion until help can arrive.  Or at least try to delay it.

3.  Jon will not come into serious conflict with family members.  The Starks aren't the Lannisters.  Even now, they pretty much think nice thoughts about each other.  Rickon being used as a figurehead by somebody could potentially cause problems, although I have doubts that he will actually make it south of the Wall.

I agree with 1 and 2. 

For the third, there are a lot of sibling conflicts (or at least distance) independent of the Lannisters. Greyjoys, Tullys, Baratheons...which is why I consider that the Starks may not be exempt.

[300 H&H Magnum]

There is something I would like to add to my previous reply.  The question of what will Jon do as soon as he has consciousness.  I think the answer is obvious.  He wargs into Ghost and goes in search for his true love, Arya.  This can lead to a confrontation with Ramsay's girls.

[The Sunland Lord]

Jon and Tyrion are not comparable. Tyrion is actually a turncloak, schemer, kinslayer and a murderer, non of which Jon is.

I'm not debating whether Tyrion had reason to become those things or not, I'm just saying that Jon, if even being tempted to hurt his family, he never did such thing.

 

[300 H&H Magnum]

10 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Jon and Tyrion are not comparable. Tyrion is actually a turncloak, schemer, kinslayer and a murderer, non of which Jon is.

I'm not debating whether Tyrion had reason to become those things or not, I'm just saying that Jon, if even being tempted to hurt his family, he never did such thing.

 

Jon is not a turncloak against the Starks but he is a turncloak against his NW family.  He deserted his brothers (and had to be brought back by more honorable boys) in order to help Robb Stark. 

 

[The Sunland Lord]

17 minutes ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Jon is not a turncloak against the Starks but he is a turncloak against his NW family.  He deserted his brothers (and had to be brought back by more honorable boys) in order to help Robb Stark. 

 

Even if that counts (Mormont would disagree), I adressed the OP's Jon & Tyrion comparisons. Tyrion was climbing a hundred stairs to put his father and a worthless whore to death, when he could've just beat it. 

I think that Jon reacted in a very emotional fashion that night. I agree that it wasn't right. But he did not turn his cloak. He came back (yes, persuaded by his brothers) and that's what counts in the end.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

On March 6, 2018 at 5:03 PM, Blackwater Revenant said:

comment on whether it was right or wrong to do so. I was replying to the assertion that Jon's decision to rescue the girl in grey, put the Watch at risk of retaliation by Ramsey; Which would not have been the case in the scenario that I've suggested. Mance's decision to go to Winterfell put the Watch at risk, not Jon's decision to have a fleeing girl rescued from the shores of Long Lake.

How would that be declaring war, if Ramsey knew nothing about it?

They both would. Whether or not Mance merely picked up Arya  on her way to escape the Boltons, or literally extracted her from Winterfel, there is an actual risk for the watch given if this little endeavor is found out, the brotherhood, the wildling refugees are dead. It's going to be noted that there was a preteen girl who looked a lot like Jon, hung out around him. 

 

And all the while Jon is letting a man responsible dozens of his brothers deaths to save a half sister of his he'd swore he would have no alligence too.

[Nevets]

14 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I agree with 1 and 2. 

For the third, there are a lot of sibling conflicts (or at least distance) independent of the Lannisters. Greyjoys, Tullys, Baratheons...which is why I consider that the Starks may not be exempt.

The Greyjoys are even more dysfunctional than the Lannisters, and the Baratheons were at odds from the very beginning of the story.  As for the Tullys, while they had disagreements, there was no plotting against each other or other serioius conflict between them.  They got along pretty well.  I certainly expect some disagreements and fraught conversations among the Starks, but at the end of the day, they still love and miss each other, even Arya and Sansa.   So I don't see them actively plotting against one another.

[Varysblackfyre321]

On March 4, 2018 at 10:48 AM, Lollygag said:

There’s set up for Jon to become a much darker character. Being stabbed, betrayed, and spending too much time in one’s wolf is apt to make this worse. Actually, there’s a lot of set up for most of the characters to become darker, not just Jon, and I will say that the set up for some of the other characters seems to be a darker path than Jon.  When I say there is set up for Jon to become darker, this should probably be kept in perspective with the events in the books and the set up for other characters, as well.

But within each of these passages, there’s the other side of Jon. He’s also appalled at the idea of hurting his family. He’s upset about his attack on Emmett. As much as he wants Winterfell, Jon has his limits.

 

So if we rightfully abandon the Saint Jon who never existed, what do you see in Jon’s future given that he’s very deeply conflicted? How will what Jon’s gone through (betrayal, stabbing, coma/death/resurrection, spending too much time in Ghost, desperation) affect his future decisions? Given that Jon’s feelings are compared to Tyrion’s and we know how that turned out, how likely is it that Jon’s anger could turn him against one or more of his family under certain circumstances?  Will Jon use rationalization to get Winterfell? If the NW is damned (really looks like it is) and thusly useless against the fight with the Others, will Jon use this as rationalization to steal Winterfell from his siblings? I’ll add that I think wanting Winterfell is more about proving the world wrong about him much like how Tyrion wants Casterly Rock. If Jon comes to see Winterfell as the only way he proves to himself that he is just as good as a true-born, not something to be dumped in the midden heap of the NW, then how might this affect Jon’s decisions and views about Winterfell? I’m quite sure we won’t be getting Saint Jon as he never existed, but I’m equally as sure that Jon won’t turn evil (or as evil as any other character seems set up to be), but as for the broad space between Saint and evil, I’m not sure.

I see the only reason to which Jon would go against his siblings over this would be if they seem to be puppets for other parties whose plans may be jepordarizing the mission(Manderly, little finger),  Jon wasn't betrayed Mars and his cohorts never were his men. They were Watchmen. Jon likely won't become evil or mad; I do think he will possibly suffer from apathy from his resurrection like Thoros.  No ones a paragon in this series. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

10 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Even if that counts (Mormont would disagree), I adressed the OP's Jon & Tyrion comparisons. Tyrion was climbing a hundred stairs to put his father and a worthless whore to death, when he could've just beat it. 

I think that Jon reacted in a very emotional fashion that night. I agree that it wasn't right. But he did not turn his cloak. He came back (yes, persuaded by his brothers) and that's what counts in the end.

 

God darn it why couldn't Shae love Tyrion who'd allowed Bronn to steal her from the guy she was sleeping with to sleep with Tyrion and who'd tried his hardest to isolate her and in the end was just some guy who was just paying to sleep with her? How dare she not put her life on the line just so Tyrion could continue his fantasy of what they had being any more than him paying her to fuck him. Jon's friends made it clear they would not let him leave willing. Jon could either kill his brothers or go back with them. He chose the latter. He deserves no credit for his behavior in this debacle. I'm sure there are multiple of brothers to which have family's who now under threat of death because of the war. Much greater than the Starks even. We didn't see any of those brothers try to leave out. The fact Jon did is the only real thing that counts in the end. 

[The Sunland Lord]

10 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

God darn it why couldn't Shae love Tyrion who'd allowed Bronn to steal her from the guy she was sleeping with to sleep with Tyrion and who'd tried his hardest to isolate her and in the end was just some guy who was just paying to sleep with her? How dare she not put her life on the line just so Tyrion could continue his fantasy of what they had being any more than him paying her to fuck him. 

And where did I say otherwise? I specifically wrote that it wasn't worth it.

Quote

Jon's friends made it clear they would not let him leave willing. Jon could either kill his brothers or go back with them. He chose the latter. He deserves no credit for his behavior in this debacle. I'm sure there are multiple of brothers to which have family's who now under threat of death because of the war. Much greater than the Starks even. We didn't see any of those brothers try to leave out. The fact Jon did is the only real thing that counts in the end. 

So you suggest that he turned his cloak? But that's hard to prove, since he stayed in the Night's Watch. If the writer wanted Jon to escape for good, he would've made it so. 

I agree that he reacted poorly, but in the end, he didn't desert from the Watch. 

[Anck Su Namun]

46 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

And where did I say otherwise? I specifically wrote that it wasn't worth it.

So you suggest that he turned his cloak? But that's hard to prove, since he stayed in the Night's Watch. If the writer wanted Jon to escape for good, he would've made it so. 

I agree that he reacted poorly, but in the end, he didn't desert from the Watch. 

Weeeeelllll, he did technically desert from the Watch.  The writer wanted to establish a pattern.  It's hints that Jon is not wholeheartedly focused on the duty of protecting the realm from the W/W.  To be more accurate, it established Jon as a man who acts on feelings and emotions instead of reason when it comes to the Stark family.  He's not only conflicted but his dedication is compromised.  The point was made, there are many men on that Wall whose families were in danger because of the Stark-Lannister feud and they didn't desert.  So the excuse that it's not reasonable to expect a man to keep to his vows is invalid.  Jon's resolve is weaker than most of the men's on that Wall. 

I can't say what will happen to Jon from this point on.  I think he died from his stab wounds. 

[The Sunland Lord]

12 minutes ago, Anck Su Namun said:

Weeeeelllll, he did technically desert from the Watch. 

Where did he end up when he deserted? On the Wall?

[Moiraine Sedai]

A Dance of the Direwolves would be an interesting turn of events.  Someone will have to establish himself or herself as the leader of the pack.  The pack follows the strong, the alpha wolf.  Winterfell is the symbol of power in the north.  This is not unlike the Great Pyramid in Meereen.  It's the seat of the one who rules.  Rickon is the one likely to oppose Jon.  Bran is a cripple and the macho among the lords will be turned off by that.  Sansa is a Lannister.  Arya is too damaged.  That leaves Rickon to challenge Jon.  The black wolf vs. the white wolf.  The wild wolf vs. the quiet wolf. The angry wolf vs. the mad wolf.  They battle to determine who will lead the pack.  Winterfell will literally become a den of wolves that feed on the dead.  

[Adam Yozza]

2 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

A Dance of the Direwolves would be an interesting turn of events.  Someone will have to establish himself or herself as the leader of the pack.  The pack follows the strong, the alpha wolf.  Winterfell is the symbol of power in the north.  This is not unlike the Great Pyramid in Meereen.  It's the seat of the one who rules.  Rickon is the one likely to oppose Jon.  Bran is a cripple and the macho among the lords will be turned off by that.  Sansa is a Lannister.  Arya is too damaged.  That leaves Rickon to challenge Jon.  The black wolf vs. the white wolf.  The wild wolf vs. the quiet wolf. The angry wolf vs. the mad wolf.  They battle to determine who will lead the pack.  Winterfell will literally become a den of wolves that feed on the dead.  

See you say that, but I personally find it highly unlikely that this will go down that way. Beyond the fact that I don't think there's enough time in the story for a war between the Starks, especially considering how out of character it would be for them, the most likely candidate to try and stake a claim on Winterfell is actually Littlefinger as a proxy for Sansa, but I find even that doubtful.

[Varysblackfyre321]

9 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

And where did I say otherwise? I specifically wrote that it wasn't worth it.

You wrote she was  a worthless whore-I've found such statements come from feelings of resentment for the girl for not sticking her  neck out for Tyrion as if she really owed him so much.

9 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

So you suggest that he turned his cloak? But that's hard to prove, since he stayed in the Night's Watch. If the writer wanted Jon to escape for good, he would've made it so. 

I agree that he reacted poorly, but in the end, he didn't desert from the Watch. 

I suggest nothing-what I'm pointing out is that Jon did leave Castle Black, and did intend to keep going till he could reach winterfel to be with his family-that behavior was not displayed by anyone else in the watch with news of the war-it's extremely unlikely more than few brothers have former loved ones and relatives who are going to be at far greater risk than Jon's. In the end, Jon was the only one to actually try to leave. It's not just reacting "poorly", odds are if Jon had done this and was caught by those not totally indedted to him, and news of this incident got out the old bear would likely have to take the boy he had wanted to be his protégé head. If the writer wanted Daenarys  to turn into a dragon he would have made it so; what relevance does that have? None.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Adam Yozza said:

See you say that, but I personally find it highly unlikely that this will go down that way. Beyond the fact that I don't think there's enough time in the story for a war between the Starks, especially considering how out of character it would be for them, the most likely candidate to try and stake a claim on Winterfell is actually Littlefinger as a proxy for Sansa, but I find even that doubtful.

I agree with your conclusion, but I do think the author could go in that direction if he so desired. It is possible that Jon has decided that he wants Winterfell, Rickon be damned (I don't see it either, but it is possible). And I think the plot demands a reckoning between the sisters, whether for good or ill. 

[The Sunland Lord]

3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

You wrote she was  a worthless whore-I've found such statements come from feelings of resentment for the girl for not sticking her  neck out for Tyrion as if she really owed him so much.

No, I mean that she was worthless-which was proven so. Why would someone expect loyalty from a whore? 

3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I suggest nothing-what I'm pointing out is that Jon did leave Castle Black, and did intend to keep going till he could reach winterfel to be with his family-that behavior was not displayed by anyone else in the watch with news of the war-it's extremely unlikely more than few brothers have former loved ones and relatives who are going to be at far greater risk than Jon's. In the end, Jon was the only one to actually try to leave. It's not just reacting "poorly", odds are if Jon had done this and was caught by those not totally indedted to him, and news of this incident got out the old bear would likely have to take the boy he had wanted to be his protégé head. If the writer wanted Daenarys  to turn into a dragon he would have made it so; what relevance does that have? None.

So, what if Jon wanted to leave, but did not? What relevance does that have? 

It's not a done deed, unlike when, for example, Tyrion killed Tywin, or when Jaime killed Aerys. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

2 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

See you say that, but I personally find it highly unlikely that this will go down that way. Beyond the fact that I don't think there's enough time in the story for a war between the Starks, especially considering how out of character it would be for them, the most likely candidate to try and stake a claim on Winterfell is actually Littlefinger as a proxy for Sansa, but I find even that doubtful.

Dance of the Direwolves would make the story in the north better, in my opinion.  It's what I want to see.   Okay.