How is Littlefinger able to broker a marriage between Harry Hardyng and Alayne Stone?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 3/8/2018 at 7:17 PM, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Only the ruling monarch can legitimize a bastard.  So this is not happening unless LF can find a way to boot Cersei and the Lannisters from power.  Aside from that, I agree with the persuasive power of cash over a proud but cash poor house.

First of all, I'm not saying he would try. But you have to admit that a man with that kind of money and land, and no heirs, with a bastard daughter he seems to dote upon, would definitely make people think he might use his influence with the crown and get her declared legal. He doesn't have to do it, he doesn't even have to think it. Other people would be the ones thinking it; Harry the Heir in particular, and he would not be the first person to think he's getting more than he's actually going to get.

Second, if LF wanted to go so far--and be so bold--as to have "Alayne" legitimized, he doesn't have to do a thing against the Lannisters. Legitimization requires only the signing of a piece of parchment, and the offspring in question never have to be seen by the monarch. All LF has to do is ask the crown for a tiny favor, and neither Cersei nor anyone else would see any reason to deny the request. Littlefinger has been so very useful to the crown, after all.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 3/8/2018 at 7:57 PM, goldenmaps said:

It could happen.  If a girl is rich enough, she can marry anybody.  In the Gilded Age many rich American girls were able to marry into English nobility because the men had the titles and the girls had the money. 

Now, would the scheme to marry Sansa to Harry succeed, i hope not.  For some reason i want Robert to survive.  i want Sansa to defeat Littlefinger and for Robert to not be under his influence any longer.  Hopefully with time and loyal Vale lords to help him, Robert can actually be a good ruler. 

The scheme is not to marry Sansa to Harry. Remember LF intends to bring her out at the wedding as Sansa Stark. Sansa Stark is married to Tyrion Lannister--consummated or not, she has to get an annulment before she can be legally wed to anyone else in Westeros, so that stops the wedding right there.

The goal is by that point to have Harry so infatuated with Sansa that he vows to fight all her battles and do pretty much anything else for her. And that's good because it means she will get support from anyone in his circle in addition to all of the Valemen who still remember her father with affection. That also makes Sweetrobin realize she's his cousin so she gets all the official knights of the Vale anyway. No one will take too much offence at the deception because after all LF was protecting his niece.

After that things get complicated because if Cersei's still in power, she WILL find out that LF pulled a fast one on her and try to get both him and Sansa killed. Then again, if Cersei's not in power, Sansa can go to KL and get her annulment and maybe be cleared of the charge of regicide--though that might take a trial so I really hope there's a trial of seven. Heck, by that time maybe Aegon will be on the IT and if he's still single then who needs Harry?

[The Lord of the Crossing]

17 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

First of all, I'm not saying he would try. But you have to admit that a man with that kind of money and land, and no heirs, with a bastard daughter he seems to dote upon, would definitely make people think he might use his influence with the crown and get her declared legal. He doesn't have to do it, he doesn't even have to think it. Other people would be the ones thinking it; Harry the Heir in particular, and he would not be the first person to think he's getting more than he's actually going to get.

Second, if LF wanted to go so far--and be so bold--as to have "Alayne" legitimized, he doesn't have to do a thing against the Lannisters. Legitimization requires only the signing of a piece of parchment, and the offspring in question never have to be seen by the monarch. All LF has to do is ask the crown for a tiny favor, and neither Cersei nor anyone else would see any reason to deny the request. Littlefinger has been so very useful to the crown, after all.

Option 2 is his best chance.  Doing so will mean Sansa will forever become Alayne.  She marries Harry under the false identity of Alayne is one thing.  May as well become Alayne for good and marry under that name.  

[Universal Sword Donor]

17 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

First of all, I'm not saying he would try. But you have to admit that a man with that kind of money and land, and no heirs, with a bastard daughter he seems to dote upon, would definitely make people think he might use his influence with the crown and get her declared legal. He doesn't have to do it, he doesn't even have to think it. Other people would be the ones thinking it; Harry the Heir in particular, and he would not be the first person to think he's getting more than he's actually going to get.

Second, if LF wanted to go so far--and be so bold--as to have "Alayne" legitimized, he doesn't have to do a thing against the Lannisters. Legitimization requires only the signing of a piece of parchment, and the offspring in question never have to be seen by the monarch. All LF has to do is ask the crown for a tiny favor, and neither Cersei nor anyone else would see any reason to deny the request. Littlefinger has been so very useful to the crown, after all.

I had not even thought of that and that's a a diabolical scheme you cooked up

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On ‎3‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 8:17 PM, Angel Eyes said:

A bastard girl marrying the heir to the Vale is a rather mismatched match. 

Or is Littlefinger trying to prove a point by

  Reveal hidden contents

pulling Sansa Stark out of a hat by having her pretend she's a bastard?

Thoughts?

Alayne Stone is the sole heir of the paramount of the Riverlands and Baelish had embezzled millions from the realm , making him rich as Tywin .

[Morgana Lannister]

On 3/11/2018 at 8:51 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

I had not even thought of that and that's a a diabolical scheme you cooked up

I agree that yes it could work just like Joffrey or was it Tommen? didn't pay much attention when he signed the legitimization of Ramsay.  However, I don't think Sansa will be contented to remain Alayne for ever.  For now she doesn't have anywhere else to go but this may change once the Boltons and especially the Lannisters are defeated and the only way she can hope to take Winterfell is under her true identity and yes that brings the complication of her marriage to Tyrion.  Of course there are a lot of variables out there that some of the characters are not aware of.  For one, Rickon and Bran are still alive, also there is the matter of Robb's will.  On top of that, Tyrion seems very much on his way to aiding Dany (even prior to her return) in a way that totally points to the fact that he will hold an important office with her and I reckon he is pretty unlikely to be killed off soon.  It is true that if Sansa wants the marriage annulled (once her true identity is revealed) as it was not consummated she doesn't need his consent.  However, if by then she has lost her virginity to say Harry (as her husband or not) this non-consummation will just rely on the word of the parties.  Also some maidens can lost their maidenhead by riding or whatever so risky business to rely totally on this non-consummation.

It is also my view that Sansa is no longer the naive girl we saw at the start of the story.  Also she is ambitious.  Besides, it wouldn't be hard for her to figure out that if she wants to be in a powerful marriage which doesn't tax her too much in the bed chamber, Tyrion is perfect candidate in that, I am sure if she lets her get on with his whores discreetly he wouldn't try to bed her and she could well go for it.  I guess he would have to grant her the same sort of right but unless she falls badly for someone I am not sure I could really see her taking a lover.  Still this presents issues too.  Even if Tyrion becomes Dany's Hand (for instance), even if he takes Casterly Rock by way of conquest, he signed a great deal of his gold to the Second Sons lol  There are so many interconnected plots here!  Still, at face value, Tyrion got badly screwed by that deal.  However, thinking about it, if the Second Sons have any hope whatsoever or recouping that gold they need to help Tyrion take Casterly and knowing how cunning he can be I think he was more than aware of that fact when he signed.  Still I can;t see this happening (keeping a marriage of convenience) in TWOW either, too soon...

If Harry gets wings and the betrothal (not the wedding) goes ahead him and his army and the rest of the winged knights are likely to support her claim to WF.   Sweet Robin is also likely to approve, despite his dislike for Harry.  Now, if the Boltons win against Stannis unless there is a peasant revolt at North of Cersei losses there is no much that can be done as they would be badly outnumbered.   Now, if Stannis wins, it will be interesting to see if he is still keen on giving WF to a Stark or whether he may try something slightly different like marrying Shireen to Rickon or something.  Failing that he could certainly try to have a say as to which Stark he backs...  The latter would be IMHO the more interesting for his own arc in that he has so far gone on and on about primogeniture (him against Renly) but if presented with a candidate that is yet too young, maybe or maybe not unsuitable personaility wise, well that could put him into a "double standards" situation...

Of course, at present, non of these people know that Bran and Rickon are alive.  I reckon Bran is going to be way North for a bit longer yet but that Rickon will turn up and that Manderly will try to make him his pawn and betroth him to one of his granddaughters.  Here we could see some pro-Manderleys cheering for Rickon and some other northern Lords for Sansa or even Jon and I think we will see some of this built up in TWOW.  Will Sansa try to take WF from her own little brother?  Here is where I am not too sure.  It would depend, or it could be her justification, on what Rickon is like and how manipulated she (and others) feel he is.  She could try to take WF even for her younger brother as she could act as Regent for quite a few years yet.  Now, the revelation that Rickon is alive could be a game breaker for Harry too (assuming by then he knows who she truly is).  I cannot see Harry going to war for the claim of his wife or betrothed younger brother...  Also this is likely to throw LF off balance a bit.  He is completely convinced that he can manipulate Sansa (even if she is married to another).  In fact he did this very successfully via Dontos when she was married to someone very shrewd.  I think he is too self-confident to think otherwise and I think that is where everything will start going wrong for him.  Rickon is very unlikely to be in his radar so he won't be able to manipulate him, even if he is a very young child.  Now, with Sansa as Regent... so he will continue with this plan but tensions at North re who gets WF are going to run high, I think...

Personally, I think this betrothal can be explained with or without Harry and the Waynwoods knowing the truth and that it will serve a purpose in the overall story and that the winged knights are connected to this purpose hence my prediction of Harry getting wings and a long betrothal (3 years).  The purpose, to me,is linked to the rule in WF.  Robin is another wild card and my gut instinct is that he is not going to die anytime soon either.  It could well be me, but when something is expected or someone keeps saying something like "never" we should pay close attention.  He has developed a childhoood crush on Alayne, although not a sexual one yet.  I think that is there for a reason too.  I think that although he annoys the hell out of her, she cares for him but not enough to marry him, not even for his title.  I may seem inconsistent in that I said that I could see her in a political marriage with Tyrion but Tyrion doesn't need a babysitter.  His personality is much stronger.  Still, once he knows her true identity he will know she cannot marry Harry.  I think Robert Arryn's arc is not over yet either.  It may break his heart but I think he will have to learn that his mother unwittingly made him weak and cruel.  It's funny how he wanted Tyrion dead almost without question on his mother's say.  However, he commented on how little he was almost with pity and perhaps empathy (until the point when Lysa intervened).  Sansa may paint a different picture of him though.  Now, if they were ever to meet again (Robin and Tyrion) Sansa would have the upper hand with both and I think Sansa/Tyrion would protect Robin.  For their own end game as it may be but I think it could happen with the punchline of the reveal, by Sansa, to him and his Lords re Lysa's death.  If Robin lives he is out for a hard awakening that is for sure.

A lot of our characters are pawns that think of themselves as players.  I count both Harry and Tyrion as such.  Harry may well raise an army to aid his own ambition via Sansa but, say if a suitable match is made for Robin (when he is able to marry) and he has issue, off they go Harry's dreams.  I wouldn't put it past Sansa to arrange such match.  LF will be confident that he won't survive and if the match is advantageous to the Vale he may not have an excuse to reject it...

The way I see Sansa with Harry, she wants to retain LF's approval and keep playing the game but has little intention of marrying him and even less so if that involves allowing Robin to be murdered, and she can't be so stupid as to fail to notice that she is only marrying someone powerful (Harry) if Robert dies lol.  Yet, the text is very ambiguous as to her intentions but I believe very much on purpose.  Now, as soon as Robin comes of age, he may be able to nominate his successor.  If Sansa keeps him safe, discreetly, and plays her cards right this successor could be a child of hers by anyone but Harry... as our little Robert is very suspicious of him.  Of course Sansa is not yet to know that Tyrion is likely to become prominent again but I wouldn't be at all surprised that, in the quiet, pretending to be stupid, Sansa wouldn't end up (or her children) with the Vale, WF and Casterly Rock, maybe even the Riverlands (if Edmure and his son die, say and of course assuming Rickon dies and Bran has other jobs in mind)..  WF if all the other characters get caught up in internal northern rivalries, Bran renounces his title etc and Jon has bigger fish to fry.  The main problem I see with this theory of mine is that it represents a huge concentration of power in her hands and I believe the end of ADOS will be about reconstruction with a slightly fairer political system.  Still a number of our characters are in training, being groomed for something (Arya, Bran, Jon even, Sansa herself of course) and if we think of people like Eleanor of Aquitaine well that sort of power in a woman's hand did happen in medieval Europe.

Okay, I appear to be going all over the place with this but Sansa is soooo connected to nearly all characters (by blood, marriage or some sort of allegiance, like with LF) that trying to see what may be her arc involves trying to solve all the other puzzles.  Granted though, this thread is about how did LF managed to "sell the betrothal" to Lady Anya and my apologies if I have gotten well off topic.

[Tagganaro]

From what I can understand, the first step of LF's plan is for "Alayne" to seduce and win over Harry, without Sansa revealing herself.  Step 2 involves Sweet Robin "having an accident" and Harry making his claim to the Vale as a result.  Step 3 involves Sansa's marriage being annulled through Tyrion's death (and I'd imagine LF is also counting on Cersei botching things and getting the Lannisters killed off).  Once those 3 steps happen, then "Alayne" can reveal herself as Sansa and you'd have this new "power couple" which the Knights of the Vale would support for their claim to the North and you'd have LF behind it all.

Edited to add that I think it's acknowledged that "Alayne" is below Harry's station, but if she can charm Harry on the side while LF negotiates with Waynwood regarding a dowry before they tie the knot that's why LF would be able to broker a marriage between the 2.

I think once Sansa is revealed you could have LF, Brune, and probably Bronze Yohn/Myranda (remember Bronze Yohn has seen Sansa pretty recently on the way to taking Waymar to the Night's Watch and seems to be a pretty open supporter of the Starks and Tullys) all attest to her identity.

I think obviously that the biggest wrench in all this is LF's personal feelings towards Sansa getting in the way and him overplaying his hand in front of her.  Factor in that the "Mad Mouse" has now seen "Alayne" and may harbor suspicions about her true identity as well as whatever game Myranda Royce is playing (I'm of the opinion that she probably already has deduced Sansa's identity based on Sansa's impulsive reaction to hearing that Jon was named LC of the Night's Watch, which based on the seeming randomness of that remark by Myranda was probably specifically designed to elicit that type of response from Sansa).

[Morgana Lannister]

On 3/11/2018 at 3:46 AM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The scheme is not to marry Sansa to Harry. Remember LF intends to bring her out at the wedding as Sansa Stark. Sansa Stark is married to Tyrion Lannister--consummated or not, she has to get an annulment before she can be legally wed to anyone else in Westeros, so that stops the wedding right there.

The goal is by that point to have Harry so infatuated with Sansa that he vows to fight all her battles and do pretty much anything else for her. And that's good because it means she will get support from anyone in his circle in addition to all of the Valemen who still remember her father with affection. That also makes Sweetrobin realize she's his cousin so she gets all the official knights of the Vale anyway. No one will take too much offence at the deception because after all LF was protecting his niece.

After that things get complicated because if Cersei's still in power, she WILL find out that LF pulled a fast one on her and try to get both him and Sansa killed. Then again, if Cersei's not in power, Sansa can go to KL and get her annulment and maybe be cleared of the charge of regicide--though that might take a trial so I really hope there's a trial of seven. Heck, by that time maybe Aegon will be on the IT and if he's still single then who needs Harry?

I have to go with you.  Okay, it would help if Harry fancies Sansa but it is not necessary, as long as he fancies the Vale and WF.  Harry will help LF help Sansa take WF as far as he profits.  If he knows who she is and who she is married to for now, that may even bring their kids (Sansa and Harry) the Rock if they have the sense to let the Half-Man fight for Dany or whatever ( I cannot see how this is going to be a secret for much longer) let him take the Rock by force of dragon, kill him, maybe after she gives him a son, or let foolish Tyrion be killed lol and marry her as planned.  Now, Harry maybe many things but he strikes me as a bit of a young Robert Baratheon, all for the sex and pleasure and the idea of lands until he has to rule them!  That would suit LF perfectly and I guess he is banking on that.  However, I doubt LF's plans will come to pass this time the way he expects them to.  LF assumes a lot of deaths and betrayals and what not and Sansa, if she got enough acumen to be believed has the answer to the Purple Wedding and to Lysa's death, never mind the knowledge or where the food is!

I see Harry as a LF wannabe but no way so amoral and no way so shrewd.  Still, I think it will be ultimately up to Sansa to say who she shares her power with:  Harry, Robin or Tyrion.  If it were me, I would go for the most able of the lot, call it self-preservation and I mean able in the mind, and to boot, a man that would not ask me to do much (or else he would had done before when under pressure even).

lol I am contradicting myself badly here!!!  Originally I stated, rather categorically, that Harry knows who she is.  Why back her for nothing though?  Like many others he may well think Tyrion dead or unable to come back to Westeros, or even better, let him take the Rock and then she can claim it for herself (I guess that would involved allowing Ty and Sansa to meet and have a child...) 

A lot of people here for some reason see Harry as a guy who would not take no for an answer and would rape her.  That would put him in the "brain dead" character of the year competition lol.  IMHO, Harry is even more likely to allow his "wife" Sansa to have a child by Tyrion so that once Robin is dead their own children, even if Casterly were to go to her first by Tyrion (hopefully a dwarf and unsuitable, in Harry's mind) and then hey 3 kingdoms from starting life as a poor cousin of the Vale lol

Hell, with my machinations I guess you guys think I could have been the worse character in the series, had I happened to be one

[Morgana Lannister]

34 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I have to go with you.  Okay, it would help if Harry fancies Sansa but it is not necessary, as long as he fancies the Vale and WF.  Harry will help LF help Sansa take WF as far as he profits.  If he knows who she is and who she is married to for now, that may even bring their kids (Sansa and Harry) the Rock if they have the sense to let the Half-Man fight for Dany or whatever ( I cannot see how this is going to be a secret for much longer) let him take the Rock by force of dragon, kill him, maybe after she gives him a son, or let foolish Tyrion be killed lol and marry her as planned.  Now, Harry maybe many things but he strikes me as a bit of a young Robert Baratheon, all for the sex and pleasure and the idea of lands until he has to rule them!  That would suit LF perfectly and I guess he is banking on that.  However, I doubt LF's plans will come to pass this time the way he expects them to.  LF assumes a lot of deaths and betrayals and what not and Sansa, if she got enough acumen to be believed has the answer to the Purple Wedding and to Lysa's death, never mind the knowledge or where the food is!

I see Harry as a LF wannabe but no way so amoral and no way so shrewd.  Still, I think it will be ultimately up to Sansa to say who she shares her power with:  Harry, Robin or Tyrion.  If it were me, I would go for the most able of the lot, call it self-preservation and I mean able in the mind, and to boot, a man that would not ask me to do much (or else he would had done before when under pressure even).

lol I am contradicting myself badly here!!!  Originally I stated, rather categorically, that Harry knows who she is.  Why back her for nothing though?  Like many others he may well think Tyrion dead or unable to come back to Westeros, or even better, let him take the Rock and then she can claim it for herself (I guess that would involved allowing Ty and Sansa to meet and have a child...) 

A lot of people here for some reason see Harry as a guy who would not take no for an answer and would rape her.  That would put him in the "brain dead" character of the year competition lol.  IMHO, Harry is even more likely to allow his "wife" Sansa to have a child by Tyrion (or pretend he is unaware of their intercourse - I think that is where Myranda is needed)  so that once Robin is dead their own children, even if Casterly were to go to her first by Tyrion (hopefully a dwarf and unsuitable, in Harry's mind) hey he gets 3 kingdoms even if he started life as a poor cousin of the Vale lol

Hell, with my machinations I guess you guys think I could have been the worse character in the series, had I happened to be one

Okay, I wrote this post from Harry's point of view in the most cynical way.  I am absolutely sure that things will not go that smoothly for him.  It is also likely that he is not as Machiavellian as myself

 

 

[Morgana Lannister]

On 3/11/2018 at 3:46 AM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The scheme is not to marry Sansa to Harry. Remember LF intends to bring her out at the wedding as Sansa Stark. Sansa Stark is married to Tyrion Lannister--consummated or not, she has to get an annulment before she can be legally wed to anyone else in Westeros, so that stops the wedding right there.

The goal is by that point to have Harry so infatuated with Sansa that he vows to fight all her battles and do pretty much anything else for her. And that's good because it means she will get support from anyone in his circle in addition to all of the Valemen who still remember her father with affection. That also makes Sweetrobin realize she's his cousin so she gets all the official knights of the Vale anyway. No one will take too much offence at the deception because after all LF was protecting his niece.

After that things get complicated because if Cersei's still in power, she WILL find out that LF pulled a fast one on her and try to get both him and Sansa killed. Then again, if Cersei's not in power, Sansa can go to KL and get her annulment and maybe be cleared of the charge of regicide--though that might take a trial so I really hope there's a trial of seven. Heck, by that time maybe Aegon will be on the IT and if he's still single then who needs Harry?

and Sansa knows it and unless we get a change in government, she cannot be outed! LF believes Sansa still believes in fairytales but even if she had the IQ of an ameba, which I don't think is the case, she cannot possibly believe that.  Yes, a story to sing a song about "your true, pure identity in front of all on your wedding day" blah.  Sansa's point of view is hugely ambiguous (no doubt on purpose by the author).  She is wanted for regicide lol surely not even an ameba could feel safe with that!  Yes, if Cersei is gone, a welcome possibility but not otherwise.  Even the readers who think Sansa is passive and stupid can surely understand self-preservation!  She knows her beautiful cloak or whatever and her never ending love and no longer a bastard hey do not come with her maidenhood but with a swift in power!

lol I was not contradicting you in any way lol  I agree that she will use Harry to do something about WF post battle Stannis-v-Boltons and I have posted on both possibilities although I think Stannis will win but short-life, just like Aegon.  

I don't think Sansa will ever face a trial for that.  Where is the necklace by the way?  Not being arsy just forgot where it went...  I think her and Tyrion have a huge defence if Dany is judging! and hey, the guys may have thought it but didn't do it!  

However, love her or hate her, I think she will ensure that the knights of the Vale fight a battle for her or her sibblings.

As for the annulment, just like Tyrion relies on the gold he promised to the Second Sons, Sansa relies on her currently "married" status.  It's an insurance policy, really.  If Sansa wants to marry, and the girl used to believe in knights and sons but no longer so much, I think she will marry for power but only to someone she can control and to a point admire.

Okay, this is going to take away credibility from me as a poster but it is no secret.  I ship Sansa/Tyrion for many reasons but overall, a preference lol  The thing is, I try to be rational but no one could be as effective as them, in tandem with Gilly and Sam etc in the reconstruction stage.  The plot would come full circle with reconstruction from the two houses who went to war... okay just call it a preference.

I am very aware that my "wishful thinking" leads to a lot of stuff but hell, I have tried to position myself as the least moral, more pragmatic bitch in the series and that is what I came up with

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

On 3/7/2018 at 0:16 PM, The Broke Howard Hughes said:

I agree, I think it's pretty well expected that Robert Arryn isn't going to live very long.

I agree and while we don’t know the totality of little Arryn’s addiction it is quite clear he is borderline (if not already)reliant now

So my fan-fic scenario.... when a tore up Robert Arryn wants his best bud/surrogate mom around, is it possible he tells his brand new shiny sworn gaurdsmen to bring her to him or something like that? This could be his 1st official order by the way 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 3/11/2018 at 3:51 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

I had not even thought of that and that's a a diabolical scheme you cooked up

Thank you. I try.

5 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

<snip

lol I was not contradicting you in any way lol  I agree that she will use Harry to do something about WF post battle Stannis-v-Boltons and I have posted on both possibilities although I think Stannis will win but short-life, just like Aegon.  

I don't think Sansa will ever face a trial for that.  Where is the necklace by the way?  Not being arsy just forgot where it went...  I think her and Tyrion have a huge defence if Dany is judging! and hey, the guys may have thought it but didn't do it!  

However, love her or hate her, I think she will ensure that the knights of the Vale fight a battle for her or her sibblings.

<snip

Okay, this is going to take away credibility from me as a poster but it is no secret.  I ship Sansa/Tyrion for many reasons but overall, a preference lol  The thing is, I try to be rational but no one could be as effective as them, in tandem with Gilly and Sam etc in the reconstruction stage.  The plot would come full circle with reconstruction from the two houses who went to war... okay just call it a preference.

I am very aware that my "wishful thinking" leads to a lot of stuff but hell, I have tried to position myself as the least moral, more pragmatic bitch in the series and that is what I came up with

The necklace is in Sansa's possession. She took it with her when she left KL. Personally I think she'll be killing LF with it, such a fitting end for him.

I actually think Stannis stands a good chance of winning Winterfell back, at least temporarily. So Sansa may not need Harry for that at all. I don't remember, does she know that "Arya" is actually Jeyne Poole? If not I could see her sending the Knights of the Vale to try and rescue her little sister from Ramsay--who will be killed by the real Arya, at a date to be determined later.

Unless the truth about who killed Joffrey is publicly known, Sansa still  has that charge hanging over her head. So if she goes to the High Septon (assuming there is one, even if not the current one) he may insist she stand trial on the grounds that she has nothing to fear if she's innocent. And we have to get a trial of seven somehow! Wishful thinking maybe, but it's a strong wish.

I'm not of the opinion that shipping invalidates anyone's thoughts. I'm more of a San/San person myself but I don't think there's a happy ending in sight for that particular vessel. Sansa is currently turning into the kind of person Sandor hates, or at least pretending to turn into that kind. The beauty is becoming the beast, while the beast is being transformed into the kind of man she hoped he could be. It's a brilliant trope inversion, if a sad one. No matter who Sansa ends up with, if anyone, she's got some interesting things ahead of her for sure.

[Morgana Lannister]

On 3/13/2018 at 4:37 AM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Thank you. I try.

The necklace is in Sansa's possession. She took it with her when she left KL. Personally I think she'll be killing LF with it, such a fitting end for him.

I actually think Stannis stands a good chance of winning Winterfell back, at least temporarily. So Sansa may not need Harry for that at all. I don't remember, does she know that "Arya" is actually Jeyne Poole? If not I could see her sending the Knights of the Vale to try and rescue her little sister from Ramsay--who will be killed by the real Arya, at a date to be determined later.

Unless the truth about who killed Joffrey is publicly known, Sansa still  has that charge hanging over her head. So if she goes to the High Septon (assuming there is one, even if not the current one) he may insist she stand trial on the grounds that she has nothing to fear if she's innocent. And we have to get a trial of seven somehow! Wishful thinking maybe, but it's a strong wish.

I'm not of the opinion that shipping invalidates anyone's thoughts. I'm more of a San/San person myself but I don't think there's a happy ending in sight for that particular vessel. Sansa is currently turning into the kind of person Sandor hates, or at least pretending to turn into that kind. The beauty is becoming the beast, while the beast is being transformed into the kind of man she hoped he could be. It's a brilliant trope inversion, if a sad one. No matter who Sansa ends up with, if anyone, she's got some interesting things ahead of her for sure.

Thank you!!!  OMG, that means Sansa can call the shots on that trial re Joffrey.   Most people see Tyrion as the one wronged for it but both of them were!!!  Please, please, god George, let me get them together Sansa and Ty to present that necklace.... possibly to the Lords of the Vale, no more... She also could confess the truth re Lysa's death, bitch as she was but still fair is fair and he did kill her...

I am going for Stannis winning too but not for long and we know Shireen burns lol (will cry!) but possibly not his doing as we don't know the details, still I can see several Starks kids being manipulated.  Sansa less likely, to be honest to be manipulated becuase whatever her detractors say I think she is learning to hold her own lol

The reason I don't think it will come to trial with her, or Tyrion etc, is because I reckon Dany will pull an Aegon the Conqueror again and whoever she favours, well...  I do fear for Marg though, and I don't think she did anything bad much (at most losing her virginity) and I have very little faith in trial by combat or any other trial although I would kill to see the Clegangebowl with Sandor a victor of course!

lol got to give you an e-kiss!  Many (but not all) San/San shippers have been a little harsh with me in the past for me liking Tyrion/Sansa (athough I have also found friends who dislike the pairing and are all for Sandor/Sansa  ) and hey each to their own.  I personally feel that Sandor is being brought back into the story for a reason and the reason escapes me but I think something big, like with Jaime at the end... but you guys may be right.  I don't hate Sandor (not that you said that) and I don't think Sansa is that bad either (ambitious yeah, I hope...) I just thought her and Ty would be more compatible over a glass of expensive wine in Casterly but we shall see...  but it is great to hear from someone who "ships and lets ship" lol

Thing with Sansa is that she is connected to nearly every character in some way, so whatever happens with them will impact on her but I think 90% of fans agree she is taking down LF.  Yeah, she has the necklace!!!  I am a lawyer in real life (albeit property not criminal) but that has made my day.  Could not remember!!!  The downfall of LF I expect to be rather spectacular though... (and okay it may be her by herself or with Arya, but two people who could give evidence to back her are both the one you fancy with her and the one I fancy with her).  The more the merrier in my book, but wow, the higher the climb the hardest the fall.... yeah!  For once in this series, I do hope Lord Baelish gets a proper trial lol

As far as I am aware, Alayne (Sansa) doesn't know about Arya/Jeyne, but that will come out soon no doubt lol another element!

[Son of Man]

It is a mismatch but that's not the important question. Petyr's gold can open just about any door.  The question is really what LF wants.  

LF knows how to use women.  He has been using women to get ahead in life.  Which is funny because he's not particularly handsome.  But ok, so he knows how to use women and he knows when to discard them.  He used Lysa to get to Jon Arryn and moved up to become one of the most important members of Robert's council.  He used Lysa again and again.  He used Catelyn to trigger the war between the Starks and the Lannisters.  He used brothel women to build his personal fortunes.  LF is still playing the same game and singing the same tune with Sansa.  He is using her to get to the Hardyng boy.  Littlefinger disposes his tools when they're no longer useful.  

Sansa-Alayne is still singing the same song.  Once again, she's attracted to another asshole.  A handsome jerk with a potential to move up in the world, but a jerk nonetheless.  I think history will repeat itself and the Hardyng boy will drop Alayne after a few tumbles in the hay.  

[Nevets]

17 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The necklace is in Sansa's possession. She took it with her when she left KL. Personally I think she'll be killing LF with it, such a fitting end for him.

There is no necklace.  That was in the show.  She has a hairnet with poison crystals in it.  as far as anyone knows, she is still in possession of it.  Littlefinger's being poisoned by it is a distinct possibility, but killing soneone by poison can be risky, especially if you don't know what you're doing (and Sansa doesn't)

17 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I actually think Stannis stands a good chance of winning Winterfell back, at least temporarily. So Sansa may not need Harry for that at all. I don't remember, does she know that "Arya" is actually Jeyne Poole? If not I could see her sending the Knights of the Vale to try and rescue her little sister from Ramsay--who will be killed by the real Arya, at a date to be determined later.

I too expect that the status of Winterfell will be settled by the time Sansa is in a position to do anything about it.  I have serious doubts that she will ever marry Harry.  She doesn't like the idea of marrying again, and doesn't seem to particularly like Harry either.

Sansa is unaware of Ramsay's marriage to Arya - real or fake.  I expect Myranda Royce will be happy to tell her, though, and test her reaction.  She has no idea what happened to Jeyne Poole, either, and is unlikely to be happy about it if she finds out. As for Ramsay, I expect him to be dead well before Arya is back in Westeros.  Nor do I expect Arya to become an assassin,, either.  She hasn't the training for it, and given the events of the preview chapter, is unlikely to stay long enough to get it.

17 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Unless the truth about who killed Joffrey is publicly known, Sansa still  has that charge hanging over her head. So if she goes to the High Septon (assuming there is one, even if not the current one) he may insist she stand trial on the grounds that she has nothing to fear if she's innocent. And we have to get a trial of seven somehow! Wishful thinking maybe, but it's a strong wish.

I expect that when she does leave the Vale, it will be for the North.  She can safely reveal herself there, as the Crown's authority doesn't really extend there, and the accusations of involvement in Joffrey's murder would likely be to her benefit, and not to her detriment.  And if Cersei is out of power, she can probably reveal herself in the Vale, as well.  I doubt she will go to KL.  There is nothing for her there,, except bad memories.

16 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I don't hate Sandor (not that you said that) and I don't think Sansa is that bad either (ambitious yeah, I hope...) I just thought her and Ty would be more compatible over a glass of expensive wine in Casterly but we shall see...

I too ship Sansa and Tyrion.  I think they would make an excellent political team together.  In any case, I expect her to use her marriage to Tyrion as a blocking maneuver to prevent being used as marriage bait (which she is quite wary of).  I can also imagine her dragging her feet on obtaining an annulment, if it came to that.

[Lollygag]

I don’t think it’s a given that every stone in the hairnet is poison. Perhaps only 1 was poison, or maybe just a few.

Shae set Sansa’s hairnet (while asking to see the pie cutting…hint, hint) so she could have been ordered to set the hairnet a certain way and Olenna was instructed to choose the stone in a certain place. We know that Shae was working with Tywin and possibly also LF as LF and Tywin had a history.

This passage placed near the Purple Wedding makes me consider that those other stones may just be stones.

ASOS Daenerys III

Ser Jorah barked a command, and the trade goods were brought forward. Six bales of tiger skins, three hundred bolts of fine silk. Jars of saffron, jars of myrrh, jars of pepper and curry and cardamom, an onyx mask, twelve jade monkeys, casks of ink in red and black and green, a box of rare black amethysts, a box of pearls, a cask of pitted olives stuffed with maggots, a dozen casks of pickled cave fish, a great brass gong and a hammer to beat it with, seventeen ivory eyes, and a huge chest full of books written in tongues that Dany could not read. And more, and more, and more. Her people stacked it all before the slavers.

[Morgana Lannister]

On 3/12/2018 at 9:47 PM, Tagganaro said:

From what I can understand, the first step of LF's plan is for "Alayne" to seduce and win over Harry, without Sansa revealing herself.  Step 2 involves Sweet Robin "having an accident" and Harry making his claim to the Vale as a result.  Step 3 involves Sansa's marriage being annulled through Tyrion's death (and I'd imagine LF is also counting on Cersei botching things and getting the Lannisters killed off).  Once those 3 steps happen, then "Alayne" can reveal herself as Sansa and you'd have this new "power couple" which the Knights of the Vale would support for their claim to the North and you'd have LF behind it all.

Edited to add that I think it's acknowledged that "Alayne" is below Harry's station, but if she can charm Harry on the side while LF negotiates with Waynwood regarding a dowry before they tie the knot that's why LF would be able to broker a marriage between the 2.

I think once Sansa is revealed you could have LF, Brune, and probably Bronze Yohn/Myranda (remember Bronze Yohn has seen Sansa pretty recently on the way to taking Waymar to the Night's Watch and seems to be a pretty open supporter of the Starks and Tullys) all attest to her identity.

I think obviously that the biggest wrench in all this is LF's personal feelings towards Sansa getting in the way and him overplaying his hand in front of her.  Factor in that the "Mad Mouse" has now seen "Alayne" and may harbor suspicions about her true identity as well as whatever game Myranda Royce is playing (I'm of the opinion that she probably already has deduced Sansa's identity based on Sansa's impulsive reaction to hearing that Jon was named LC of the Night's Watch, which based on the seeming randomness of that remark by Myranda was probably specifically designed to elicit that type of response from Sansa).

I totally agree with your steps in LF's mind, however, I think number 3 is extremely unlikely, although he is very flexible and well with Cersei, say, out of power (my wager goes for Aegon taking KL for a time), revealing her identity would be possible.  Now, this (Tyrion not dying anytime soon and pressumably back on the scene in Westeros somehow) would force a plan B on LF for sure.  He could try to persuade her to try and get an annulment, which I think Tyrion would grant if asked anyway.  Ok Tyrion has other issues besides the regicide, i.e. killing Tywin, which could prevent him from coming back and LF would be counting on this.  Still, if backed by Danny, things take yet another turn.  One that I am sure LF would totally fear.  He has been trying to get Tyrion killed since the first book lol but plotting an ally of a queen with dragons may be out of his league.

IMHO, your reasoning is totally sound in terms of what LF is currently planning but I think for once he is going to lose control of some of the balls he is juggling.  There are just way too many, North, South, East everywhere! and even in his "home turf" in the Vale.

Now you mention Lothor Brune and this is indeed interesting.  He was in the boat when Sansa was "rescued."  Revealing what he heard and saw etc could be risky for him but if he were given some guarantees and a fat bag of gold...  This character has to serve some purpose and I think he may end up being a witness against LF re purple wedding...  LF made a confesion, if I remember rightly, in front of him.  Please correct me if I am wrong.  Things are a bit mixed up in my head and this series has got sooo much detail.

I am certain that the Mad Mouse and many others know who she is.  Personally my bet is that he is an informant for Varys but that his intentions are not to bring her to Cersei but to inform Varys of what goes on with her and with the Vale in general.  Myranda seems also likely to suspect something.  However, and perhaps more importantly it would be almost a miracle if the likes of Bronze Yohn hadn't put 2 and 2 together.  I was recently re-reading book 1 and he met Catelyn with Robb around the time of the beginning of the war and Sansa (dyed hair or not) is always described as looking much like her.  Also the Brandon/LF duel seems to be pretty much in the public domain and yes, he saw younger Sansa (although pre-puberty) in WF.  Yes, girls do change a lot at that age but not so much their features as their shape.  LF has to know that he is living on borrowed time if he must continue the charade.  Another reason why I think he is not as secretive re Sansa's identity as he is making it look.  The main purpose there to me is to fool Cersei & Co not so much the Vale.  He has a year to prove himself and bringing to the Vale the heiress of WF could save his bacon.

Of course, although LF maybe accounting for a "possible" Tyrion disappearance there are other elements that are even more likely to throw him off balance.  The re-appearance of Rickon for one, as and when it happens (although surely the plot with Davos and Manderly has to lead somewhere).  This makes her no longer such a "trump card," plus if I am correct in that LF has told or has hinted re her true identity to the Waynwoods they are likely to feel cheated.  His best bet would then be, IMHO, to marry her to Robert Arryn when he is a little older hence she could still control the Vale "for him."  It is possible that, although no one realistically has any reason to believe her true born brothers are alive, that he has a contingency plan for either such an eventuality or say even Harry dying or something.  If this is the case, if I were him, I would try and keep Robin alive until nearer the wedding between Alayne/Harry or even until the wedding...

LF, from where I see it can do little for now other that "wait and see."  The Boltons - v - Stannis battle is imminent.  I would certainly would wait to see who wins to formulate my next plan and take my next step because, for instance, if Stannis wins, then he may be able to break faith with the current monarch but then he would have to "seduce" or defeat Stannis.  He appears totally on board with this Vale army idea of Sansa's so maybe he intends to use it, via Harry, to possibly defeat Stannis at WF....

As to his feelings for her, yes sure, although I think he is projecting Cat on her.  Still, even villains can have genuine feelings when it comes to some stuff (if they are 3-D villains, which I think LF is).  I don't think he would discard her if she loses her claim to LF, hence I thought he may try and marry her to Robert.  He wants her in power of course but he is adaptable.

One thing is for sure, it is going to be a lot of fun watching him adapt and re-scheme.  I personally don't think that his infatuation for Sansa per se will be his downfall but the fact that he is juggling like 20 balls simultaneously with trajectories in many different locations and with many, many players.

[Morgana Lannister]

22 hours ago, Son of Man said:

It is a mismatch but that's not the important question. Petyr's gold can open just about any door.  The question is really what LF wants.  

LF knows how to use women.  He has been using women to get ahead in life.  Which is funny because he's not particularly handsome.  But ok, so he knows how to use women and he knows when to discard them.  He used Lysa to get to Jon Arryn and moved up to become one of the most important members of Robert's council.  He used Lysa again and again.  He used Catelyn to trigger the war between the Starks and the Lannisters.  He used brothel women to build his personal fortunes.  LF is still playing the same game and singing the same tune with Sansa.  He is using her to get to the Hardyng boy.  Littlefinger disposes his tools when they're no longer useful.  

Sansa-Alayne is still singing the same song.  Once again, she's attracted to another asshole.  A handsome jerk with a potential to move up in the world, but a jerk nonetheless.  I think history will repeat itself and the Hardyng boy will drop Alayne after a few tumbles in the hay.  

Yes LF uses women and men for that matter lol  Still, I think he was truly infatuated with Cat (which he now projects on Sansa) and that he sincerely feels very wronged (a bit a la Walder Frey) for the Tullys classing him as "beneath them."  As I said in my last post on this, I don't think she will discard Sansa if things go arse up (which are likely to do) but to formulate a new plan in which she features (could be forgetting about this possible betrothal and moving onto Robin/Sansa) even if she can only get the Vale and not WF.  One down in terms of kingdoms but one higher up that he would have been without this...

On the subject of Harry/Sansa I personally feel that George has been very ambiguous on purpose.  I didn't get the feeling that Sansa is infatuated with Harry at all.  Yes, she wants to seduce him (I believe without doing the deed) because that keeps LF sweet and she has nowhere to go for now and because hey, what teenage girl (or boy) doesn't want to feel desired!  Furthermore desired by the jerk who was so rude to her in public lol  I personally sense that Harry is more pawn than Sansa here, although he thinks it is the other way around.

[Morgana Lannister]

20 hours ago, Nevets said:

There is no necklace.  That was in the show.  She has a hairnet with poison crystals in it.  as far as anyone knows, she is still in possession of it.  Littlefinger's being poisoned by it is a distinct possibility, but killing soneone by poison can be risky, especially if you don't know what you're doing (and Sansa doesn't)

I too expect that the status of Winterfell will be settled by the time Sansa is in a position to do anything about it.  I have serious doubts that she will ever marry Harry.  She doesn't like the idea of marrying again, and doesn't seem to particularly like Harry either.

Sansa is unaware of Ramsay's marriage to Arya - real or fake.  I expect Myranda Royce will be happy to tell her, though, and test her reaction.  She has no idea what happened to Jeyne Poole, either, and is unlikely to be happy about it if she finds out. As for Ramsay, I expect him to be dead well before Arya is back in Westeros.  Nor do I expect Arya to become an assassin,, either.  She hasn't the training for it, and given the events of the preview chapter, is unlikely to stay long enough to get it.

I expect that when she does leave the Vale, it will be for the North.  She can safely reveal herself there, as the Crown's authority doesn't really extend there, and the accusations of involvement in Joffrey's murder would likely be to her benefit, and not to her detriment.  And if Cersei is out of power, she can probably reveal herself in the Vale, as well.  I doubt she will go to KL.  There is nothing for her there,, except bad memories.

I too ship Sansa and Tyrion.  I think they would make an excellent political team together.  In any case, I expect her to use her marriage to Tyrion as a blocking maneuver to prevent being used as marriage bait (which she is quite wary of).  I can also imagine her dragging her feet on obtaining an annulment, if it came to that.

lol yes you are right, it was a hairnet! Being stupid here.  I did get it mixed up with the show but yes it was on her hair.  The question was the same though, so thank you for that!!!  What I had in mind was not necessarily that someone will get poisoned with it but that it could be treated as "evidence".  Actually, no idea why the change that small detail in the show, I think the necklace works better given the excuse Olenna made.

I agree with you here although I think she will likely marry or stay married as it were by the end of the series, but possibly towards the end of ADOS.  Not saying that every single character needs to breed but they will be involved in a very intense reconstruction period.  I expect huge numbers of casualties and some children from our main people to repopulate as it were.  She always wanted to be a wife and mother but I think what she ends up with will not be anything like what she wanted at first, so I expect not necessarily a dashing knight.  Both Harry and Aegon (that some people think could be a potential) fit the stereotype a little too much in looks and, without necessarily the cruelty, the arrogance (in smaller doses again) of Joff.  Of the people we know going for Tyrion because I think she would do well with a politician but if not open to the idea of Sandor mayhaps.

Yes, it seems astonishing how little people in the Vale seem to know about what is happening in the rest of the realm.  I guess Myranda has the job of the "town crier" (this may be a very British expression though, let me know if it is not clear what I mean) in this and deliver all manners of news in drifts and drafts.  I mean surely the Vale Lords know about the imminent Boltons/Stannis confrontation, that surely involves FArya and hey, LF engineered that one (I mean FArya).  Of course the others will feel she is the true Arya.  How come Sansa hasn't learnt this info (even if my overhearing servants or something)...  I mean it is pretty juicy gossip!  Also, the dragon Queen.  They may take this a bit in the vein of the Others, grumkins etc but KL certainly knows.  Okay, maybe they take the view that they will worry about her if she ever gets to Westeros, so fair enough.  As for Aegon, well we only have one sample chapter for Sansa and we don't even know how far into the book it is, but if they don't know he has landed and taken castles they will soon for sure.

Jeyne seems to be possibly heading for the Free Cities but I agree that Sansa would not like to hear about what Ramsay did to her lol!  And yet again, Jeyne is another potential witness against LF lol  I think this LF'S downfall may turned up a bit like Agatha Christie's Orient Express lol  He has framed so many people that if they ever got together, no god would be able to bail him out! (and we don't even need all his enemies, a few should suffice!)  OMG, I want a trial for him soooo badly!!!! even a local one just with the Lords of the Vale or something.

I can't remember who mentioned the trial by Seven but I think we are likely to see that with Cersei, although my wager is that she will win... for a very brief period...

I am with you with Arya.  I really don't think she will be a killing sword for hire but she is a bit of a loose cannon right now and she may kill who she thinks deserves it.  Okay, won't go into it much, as out of topic, but I think both her and Tyrion will renounce revenge for the sake of it in TWOW, or take steps towards that realisation.  Seeing what Cat has become could be a trigger for Arya but, again, out of topic.

I think she will go North for sure and I expect most of the main characters to do so too.  Yet again, out of topic, but the topics are all so interlinked lol   I am convinced a lot of the action with the Others will take place around WF and WF was built by the same guy as the Wall... I think there is strong magic there, aside the political plots and sub-plots.

Whatever happens between Sansa and Tyrion it will be awkward as hell to start with.  She left him, unbeknown to her, carrying the can when he treated her well but it is also understandable that she mistrusted his family plus hey he did kill his father and Shae lol.  She probably wouldn't know about Shae but that could be an interesting conversation.  Whatever the weather though I cannot see them as enemies, either they keep the marriage and consummate (even if the do their own thing afterwards) just to make that pact solid or they annul in agreement and become just political allies.  Of course they could become a Cat/Ned situation.  After all, that sort of marriage seems to do better in ASOIAF than the love at first sight type...  It probably won't affect the overall plot hugely but I am certain that they will join forces but I would just love to see them both bringing LF down with the help of some much needed witnesses + hairnet lol

[Morgana Lannister]

20 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I don’t think it’s a given that every stone in the hairnet is poison. Perhaps only 1 was poison, or maybe just a few.

 

Shae set Sansa’s hairnet (while asking to see the pie cutting…hint, hint) so she could have been ordered to set the hairnet a certain way and Olenna was instructed to choose the stone in a certain place. We know that Shae was working with Tywin and possibly also LF as LF and Tywin had a history.

 

 

This passage placed near the Purple Wedding makes me consider that those other stones may just be stones.

 

ASOS Daenerys III

 

Ser Jorah barked a command, and the trade goods were brought forward. Six bales of tiger skins, three hundred bolts of fine silk. Jars of saffron, jars of myrrh, jars of pepper and curry and cardamom, an onyx mask, twelve jade monkeys, casks of ink in red and black and green, a box of rare black amethysts, a box of pearls, a cask of pitted olives stuffed with maggots, a dozen casks of pickled cave fish, a great brass gong and a hammer to beat it with, seventeen ivory eyes, and a huge chest full of books written in tongues that Dany could not read. And more, and more, and more. Her people stacked it all before the slavers.

 

I agree, but I think if this surfaces and there are even traces of it in the empty socket this could constitute evidence even in a medieval style court of law.  That is where I want the hairnet to end up lol!

Shae may have been totally innocent as Sansa's maid when he dressed her but yes it is interesting that she turned out in Tywin's bed!  This is way too out of topic but I believe we are to learn more as to why she was there, I believe George said as much but haven't got the quote.

It is easy to think that hey, he is just a hypocrite and she wants his coin and a powerful man but Varys, I think knew she was there... something is fishy... As for Tywing and Petyr, I think they trust each other as far as they can throw them but then again, necessity makes for queer bedfellows so maybe more will be revealed as well