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How is Littlefinger able to broker a marriage between Harry Hardyng and Alayne Stone?


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2 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

lol yes you are right, it was a hairnet! Being stupid here.  I did get it mixed up with the show but yes it was on her hair.  The question was the same though, so thank you for that!!!  What I had in mind was not necessarily that someone will get poisoned with it but that it could be treated as "evidence".  Actually, no idea why the change that small detail in the show, I think the necklace works better given the excuse Olenna made.

While it would be interesting if the hairnet were "evidence", the person it most implicates is Sansa herself, so I doubt she would produce it herself.   She has no real proof of Littlefinger's involvement, and if she were to try to use it against him, he would likely say she was lying in retaliation for whatever caused her to accuse him.   Littlefinger could produce it against her, but questions would be asked about how he knew.

2 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I agree with you here although I think she will likely marry or stay married as it were by the end of the series, but possibly towards the end of ADOS.  Not saying that every single character needs to breed but they will be involved in a very intense reconstruction period.  I expect huge numbers of casualties and some children from our main people to repopulate as it were.  She always wanted to be a wife and mother but I think what she ends up with will not be anything like what she wanted at first, so I expect not necessarily a dashing knight.  Both Harry and Aegon (that some people think could be a potential) fit the stereotype a little too much in looks and, without necessarily the cruelty, the arrogance (in smaller doses again) of Joff.  Of the people we know going for Tyrion because I think she would do well with a politician but if not open to the idea of Sandor mayhaps.

I doubt that she will marry in the near future.  Her story seems to heading in the direction of her coming into a position of power and influence in her own right.  For example, if the Knights of the Vale go North for her, it won't be because she is Harry's wife and he orders them.  It will be because she is Sansa Stark and asks them nicely, and they decide they want to help her. 

I too expect that there will be massive death and destruction at the end, and it will be "all hands on deck", so to say, especially for members of the Great Houses.  Lots of marriages and resulting children, and distribution of rulerships.  Strangely enough, Tyrion is the only substantial character I can see her married to in those circumstances.  Sandor would be interesting, but politically, he has nothing to offer.

2 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Yes, it seems astonishing how little people in the Vale seem to know about what is happening in the rest of the realm.  I guess Myranda has the job of the "town crier" (this may be a very British expression though, let me know if it is not clear what I mean) in this and deliver all manners of news in drifts and drafts.  I mean surely the Vale Lords know about the imminent Boltons/Stannis confrontation, that surely involves FArya and hey, LF engineered that one (I mean FArya).  Of course the others will feel she is the true Arya.  How come Sansa hasn't learnt this info (even if my overhearing servants or something)...  I mean it is pretty juicy gossip!  Also, the dragon Queen.  They may take this a bit in the vein of the Others, grumkins etc but KL certainly knows.  Okay, maybe they take the view that they will worry about her if she ever gets to Westeros, so fair enough.  As for Aegon, well we only have one sample chapter for Sansa and we don't even know how far into the book it is, but if they don't know he has landed and taken castles they will soon for sure.

I think Littlefinger is deliberately keeping Sansa in the dark, preventing her from learning things.  Also, many of the events you refer to happened rather late in the story.  Ramsay's announcement of his marriage was well into ADWD, and the actual conflict between him and Stannis was at the end of ADWD.  Which is well after the end of AFFC, and probably even the Sansa preview chapter.  And Daenerys is being taken seriously in KL only at the very end of ADWD.  I expect these events to become widely known fairly early on in TWOW, though. 

2 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Jeyne seems to be possibly heading for the Free Cities but I agree that Sansa would not like to hear about what Ramsay did to her lol!  And yet again, Jeyne is another potential witness against LF lol  I think this LF'S downfall may turned up a bit like Agatha Christie's Orient Express lol  He has framed so many people that if they ever got together, no god would be able to bail him out! (and we don't even need all his enemies, a few should suffice!)  OMG, I want a trial for him soooo badly!!!! even a local one just with the Lords of the Vale or something.

Bad as Ramsay's treatment of Jeyne was, I expect that Littlefinger can escape responsibility for it.  I was referring to Littlefinger's treatment of her.  While under his control, she was apparently tortured, sexually abused, and forced to work in a brothel.  That is likely to displease Sansa should she find out.  Given the skeletons in his closet, I expect some to come tumbling out, causing a breach between him and Sansa. 

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Do we know if the lad's family is in financial trouble?  Nothing cures superiority complex quicker than mounting financial pressure from the banks, which in their case is the iron bank.  Littlefinger's got the jack to make payments on their debts and they do what he says.  He who has the gold makes the rules.  Or so the saying goes.

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16 minutes ago, Peter Peckerton said:

Do we know if the lad's family is in financial trouble?  Nothing cures superiority complex quicker than mounting financial pressure from the banks, which in their case is the iron bank.  Littlefinger's got the jack to make payments on their debts and they do what he says.  He who has the gold makes the rules.  Or so the saying goes.

Yes, I believe LF has paid debts for Vale Lords he needs

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23 hours ago, Nevets said:

While it would be interesting if the hairnet were "evidence", the person it most implicates is Sansa herself, so I doubt she would produce it herself.   She has no real proof of Littlefinger's involvement, and if she were to try to use it against him, he would likely say she was lying in retaliation for whatever caused her to accuse him.   Littlefinger could produce it against her, but questions would be asked about how he knew.

I doubt that she will marry in the near future.  Her story seems to heading in the direction of her coming into a position of power and influence in her own right.  For example, if the Knights of the Vale go North for her, it won't be because she is Harry's wife and he orders them.  It will be because she is Sansa Stark and asks them nicely, and they decide they want to help her. 

I too expect that there will be massive death and destruction at the end, and it will be "all hands on deck", so to say, especially for members of the Great Houses.  Lots of marriages and resulting children, and distribution of rulerships.  Strangely enough, Tyrion is the only substantial character I can see her married to in those circumstances.  Sandor would be interesting, but politically, he has nothing to offer.

I think Littlefinger is deliberately keeping Sansa in the dark, preventing her from learning things.  Also, many of the events you refer to happened rather late in the story.  Ramsay's announcement of his marriage was well into ADWD, and the actual conflict between him and Stannis was at the end of ADWD.  Which is well after the end of AFFC, and probably even the Sansa preview chapter.  And Daenerys is being taken seriously in KL only at the very end of ADWD.  I expect these events to become widely known fairly early on in TWOW, though. 

Bad as Ramsay's treatment of Jeyne was, I expect that Littlefinger can escape responsibility for it.  I was referring to Littlefinger's treatment of her.  While under his control, she was apparently tortured, sexually abused, and forced to work in a brothel.  That is likely to displease Sansa should she find out.  Given the skeletons in his closet, I expect some to come tumbling out, causing a breach between him and Sansa. 

And that may well be why she appears compliant for now lol   It depends on when and how it is exposed.  Lothor Brune could be bought (one guesses) and he heard LF's confession to Sansa.  Did he also shot Dontos?  I seem to recall he did but too lazy to find the passage right now?  Okay, why would Brune do that and likely be killed for his troubles?  Unlikely but then again, possible.  Now, LF appears to had feared Tyrion since before he was Hand or Master of Coin!  Why???

Brune could be bought for a confession, a pardom and a Lordship???  He is there for a reason.  As friend or foe to Sansa, it could go either way...

If Dany is to judge and Ty his Hand, like in the show, I am sure she would be fair but... lol  However, that is not my preferred scenario.  I want them to present the evidence properly and win fairly lol.

Okay, mayhaps LF simply needed a scapegoat but Ty is a bad enemy to have.  He frames him, and frames him and frames him again lol.  To me Tyrion (knowingly or not has something "huge" on LF).  I am of the opinion that Tyrion doesn't know what that is but is bright enough to figure out Petyr wants his head.  Why???  Okay he has now relaxed on him but a Lannister pays his debts ;) hopefully with my Sansa!

Royce and her daughter Myranda are wild cards here but I think likely to go for Sansa.  My fanfic vibe, but okay fanfic, is that Sansa offers her the dowry to marry Harry in exchange for help and a lot of gold... That the Mad Mouse works for Varys (but doesn't intend to kidnap her) and that either Tyrion or someone else with the capacity to do something comes into it.  I go for Tyrion because of his connection with the Vale Tribes and she knows where the food is.

Those peasants and likely Lords alike are going to end up eating their toe nails comes winter, if LF has his way. LF, I don't think wants to kill Robin right away, as he could be his plan C, but Sansa has already seen something to that effect.  If LF doesn't give on the food, he gets a peasant revolt!  I think someone at the tourney is going to become a means of communication between Sansa and Tyrion (Mad Mouse??? she would not trust him) but Jaime/Brienne??? not sure at all here but someone!

I think Sansa will pull the food under the carpet for LF and will aid Dany's victory by doing so, knowingly or not...

She may go to the Lords, but she needs "evidence."  Too soon for a dragon, so no that lol  If it happens at all in this book, LF's downfall it will be at the very end and by treachery.  I count on Myranda for that!

Overall, LF is in charge of a huge house of cards and no matter what his flexibility, if you juggle 50 balls at a time, the odds ain't with you!

I think in the meantime it will be revealed that Rickon is alive or something like that and that shall be interesting too!

As for Petyr, owning brothels and giving common girls (but not so "common" in that although her father may not have held a title he has an important job with a powerful Lord)  to prostitution would be frown upon but the least of his worries.  Even against a king / king he has not "seduced" yet, regicide and framing people maybe a different kettle of fish.  My question would be, were I that new monarch, okay, you betrayed the last why not me???

Sorry, forgot to answer one paragraph.  No, I disagree, Harry will only take his troops North if she is either his wife or fiancee.  Why do so otherwise?  He has nothing to gain up North without her.  Waste of bannermen if you ask me unless he gets a share of the power...  Some Lords of the Vale may be different in that they may remember Eddard Stark and his house fondly.

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On 3/13/2018 at 6:40 PM, Nevets said:

There is no necklace.  That was in the show.  She has a hairnet with poison crystals in it.  as far as anyone knows, she is still in possession of it.  Littlefinger's being poisoned by it is a distinct possibility, but killing soneone by poison can be risky, especially if you don't know what you're doing (and Sansa doesn't)

I too expect that the status of Winterfell will be settled by the time Sansa is in a position to do anything about it.  I have serious doubts that she will ever marry Harry.  She doesn't like the idea of marrying again, and doesn't seem to particularly like Harry either.

Sansa is unaware of Ramsay's marriage to Arya - real or fake.  I expect Myranda Royce will be happy to tell her, though, and test her reaction.:P  She has no idea what happened to Jeyne Poole, either, and is unlikely to be happy about it if she finds out. As for Ramsay, I expect him to be dead well before Arya is back in Westeros.  Nor do I expect Arya to become an assassin,, either.  She hasn't the training for it, and given the events of the preview chapter, is unlikely to stay long enough to get it.

I expect that when she does leave the Vale, it will be for the North.  She can safely reveal herself there, as the Crown's authority doesn't really extend there, and the accusations of involvement in Joffrey's murder would likely be to her benefit, and not to her detriment.  And if Cersei is out of power, she can probably reveal herself in the Vale, as well.  I doubt she will go to KL.  There is nothing for her there,, except bad memories.

I too ship Sansa and Tyrion.  I think they would make an excellent political team together.  In any case, I expect her to use her marriage to Tyrion as a blocking maneuver to prevent being used as marriage bait (which she is quite wary of).  I can also imagine her dragging her feet on obtaining an annulment, if it came to that.

This would be very, very interesting. 

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10 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I agree but may take second stage once Rickon being alive, say, and possibly Rob's will come into place which I reckon may happen around the same time...

I am more interested to learn about Sansa's feelings if she learns i) her little sister is the Lady of Winterfell, ii) her little sister is being abused and/or has fled, iii) the trumped up daughter of Winterfell's old steward was abused and had to flee. (Remember, Sansa knows that Petyr took Jeyne into his custody.) 

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16 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I agree, but I think if this surfaces and there are even traces of it in the empty socket this could constitute evidence even in a medieval style court of law.  That is where I want the hairnet to end up lol!

Shae may have been totally innocent as Sansa's maid when he dressed her but yes it is interesting that she turned out in Tywin's bed!  This is way too out of topic but I believe we are to learn more as to why she was there, I believe George said as much but haven't got the quote.

It is easy to think that hey, he is just a hypocrite and she wants his coin and a powerful man but Varys, I think knew she was there... something is fishy... As for Tywing and Petyr, I think they trust each other as far as they can throw them but then again, necessity makes for queer bedfellows so maybe more will be revealed as well ;)

I'm not that convinced the hairnet will be proof of anything just because laws and courts don't seem to be much of a thing in the series. KL looks to be a mess with Aegon, Euron, Cersei, the High Sparrow, the Tyrells, Martells, and later Dany with Dragons (am I forgetting someone?) all going at each other. I just don't see a place for Sansa amongst all of that plus her arc really seems directed North.

I'm not sure that Tywin trusted much of anyone except maybe Kevan, but trust or no, he can't do everything on his own. LF seems to have positioned himself into a place of (grudging) trust here:

ASOS Tyrion III

Ser Kevan cleared his throat. "I would sooner have Petyr Baelish ruling the Eyrie than any of Lady Lysa's other suitors. Yohn Royce, Lyn Corbray, Horton Redfort . . . these are dangerous men, each in his own way. And proud. Littlefinger may be clever, but he has neither high birth nor skill at arms. The lords of the Vale will never accept such as their liege." He looked to his brother. When Lord Tywin nodded, he continued. "And there is this—Lord Petyr continues to demonstrate his loyalty. Only yesterday he brought us word of a Tyrell plot to spirit Sansa Stark off to Highgarden for a 'visit,' and there marry her to Lord Mace's eldest son, Willas."

"Littlefinger brought you word?" Tyrion leaned against the table. "Not our master of whisperers? How interesting."

 

 

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On 13/03/2018 at 11:03 PM, Lollygag said:

I don’t think it’s a given that every stone in the hairnet is poison. Perhaps only 1 was poison, or maybe just a few.

I hadn't thought about this until now, but wouldn't that make LF and the Queen of Thorn's plot much more difficult? LF would have to give her a very exact description of the hairnet and where the poison was placed in it. QoT would then have to do a much more difficult slight of hand. Much easier just to make every stone poison. 

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4 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I hadn't thought about this until now, but wouldn't that make LF and the Queen of Thorn's plot much more difficult? LF would have to give her a very exact description of the hairnet and where the poison was placed in it. QoT would then have to do a much more difficult slight of hand. Much easier just to make every stone poison. 

It could have been more difficult depending on the style of the hairnet. Olenna could have been told something like "choose the stone over her left ear" or something like that. The description of the hairnet and the scene doesn't really give us much detail either way.

I just think it's worth considering as LF leaving with Sansa with a stockpile of poison seems a rather odd choice. I can't think what his reasoning would be there and I doubt he just forgot.

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On 3/14/2018 at 2:58 PM, Morgana Lannister said:

I totally agree with your steps in LF's mind, however, I think number 3 is extremely unlikely, although he is very flexible and well with Cersei, say, out of power (my wager goes for Aegon taking KL for a time), revealing her identity would be possible.  Now, this (Tyrion not dying anytime soon and pressumably back on the scene in Westeros somehow) would force a plan B on LF for sure.  He could try to persuade her to try and get an annulment, which I think Tyrion would grant if asked anyway.  Ok Tyrion has other issues besides the regicide, i.e. killing Tywin, which could prevent him from coming back and LF would be counting on this.  Still, if backed by Danny, things take yet another turn.  One that I am sure LF would totally fear.  He has been trying to get Tyrion killed since the first book lol but plotting an ally of a queen with dragons may be out of his league.

IMHO, your reasoning is totally sound in terms of what LF is currently planning but I think for once he is going to lose control of some of the balls he is juggling.  There are just way too many, North, South, East everywhere! and even in his "home turf" in the Vale.

Yeah, I mean 100% expect this to all blow up in LF's face at some point.  I saw a lot of this kind of erroneous thinking especially during the tv show with LF that he's sort of infallible and people don't expect him to go out like a chump.  To that I say that LF may be very clever and intelligent, but he is also emotionally compromised and I'd say incapable of guarding his feelings around and towards Sansa.  I expect that to somehow, whether directly or indirectly, lead into his downfall.  

I agree, I don't know how LF sees #3 coming to fruition, considering Tyrion is in the wind.  LF would need a friend on the throne in order to broker an annulment of Tyrion's and Sansa's marriage so he can then use Sansa as a marriage token in whatever alliance he wants to form.  I don't see who LF could possibly see as that replacement to Cersei...perhaps he is more in league with the Tyrells than even previously imagined and is counting on a pliable Tommen with no Cersei left to go after Sansa.

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Now you mention Lothor Brune and this is indeed interesting.  He was in the boat when Sansa was "rescued."  Revealing what he heard and saw etc could be risky for him but if he were given some guarantees and a fat bag of gold...  This character has to serve some purpose and I think he may end up being a witness against LF re purple wedding...  LF made a confesion, if I remember rightly, in front of him.  Please correct me if I am wrong.  Things are a bit mixed up in my head and this series has got sooo much detail.

Yes this is a good point on Brune.  He certainly knows many, if not all, of LF's dark secrets.  I do find it interesting that during the descent to the Gates of the Moon Sansa and Myranda spend some time talking about Brune and his obvious crush on Mya Stone.  Don't know how or if that could play into things but that may be another piece to consider. 

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I am certain that the Mad Mouse and many others know who she is.  Personally my bet is that he is an informant for Varys but that his intentions are not to bring her to Cersei but to inform Varys of what goes on with her and with the Vale in general.  Myranda seems also likely to suspect something.  However, and perhaps more importantly it would be almost a miracle if the likes of Bronze Yohn hadn't put 2 and 2 together.  I was recently re-reading book 1 and he met Catelyn with Robb around the time of the beginning of the war and Sansa (dyed hair or not) is always described as looking much like her.  Also the Brandon/LF duel seems to be pretty much in the public domain and yes, he saw younger Sansa (although pre-puberty) in WF.  Yes, girls do change a lot at that age but not so much their features as their shape.  LF has to know that he is living on borrowed time if he must continue the charade.  Another reason why I think he is not as secretive re Sansa's identity as he is making it look.  The main purpose there to me is to fool Cersei & Co not so much the Vale.  He has a year to prove himself and bringing to the Vale the heiress of WF could save his bacon.

This has bothered me for a while :D...I feel like the "Alayne" disguise is so see-through it's almost comical.  Like everyone knows LF's past relationship with Catelyn and Lysa and all of a sudden he shows up with this beautiful girl right around Sansa's age who looks a lot like a young Catelyn.  Sansa is said to be identical looking to Catelyn, he can dye her hair all he wants but how are more people not putting this together.  That's why I kind of like the idea that Myranda for one already suspects that Alayne is Sansa and just shows up to make the descent with Sansa and mention Jon's name just to elicit that exact reaction to confirm her suspicions.  

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Of course, although LF maybe accounting for a "possible" Tyrion disappearance there are other elements that are even more likely to throw him off balance.  The re-appearance of Rickon for one, as and when it happens (although surely the plot with Davos and Manderly has to lead somewhere).  This makes her no longer such a "trump card," plus if I am correct in that LF has told or has hinted re her true identity to the Waynwoods they are likely to feel cheated.  His best bet would then be, IMHO, to marry her to Robert Arryn when he is a little older hence she could still control the Vale "for him."  It is possible that, although no one realistically has any reason to believe her true born brothers are alive, that he has a contingency plan for either such an eventuality or say even Harry dying or something.  If this is the case, if I were him, I would try and keep Robin alive until nearer the wedding between Alayne/Harry or even until the wedding...

LF, from where I see it can do little for now other that "wait and see."  The Boltons - v - Stannis battle is imminent.  I would certainly would wait to see who wins to formulate my next plan and take my next step because, for instance, if Stannis wins, then he may be able to break faith with the current monarch but then he would have to "seduce" or defeat Stannis.  He appears totally on board with this Vale army idea of Sansa's so maybe he intends to use it, via Harry, to possibly defeat Stannis at WF....

As to his feelings for her, yes sure, although I think he is projecting Cat on her.  Still, even villains can have genuine feelings when it comes to some stuff (if they are 3-D villains, which I think LF is).  I don't think he would discard her if she loses her claim to LF, hence I thought he may try and marry her to Robert.  He wants her in power of course but he is adaptable.

One thing is for sure, it is going to be a lot of fun watching him adapt and re-scheme.  I personally don't think that his infatuation for Sansa per se will be his downfall but the fact that he is juggling like 20 balls simultaneously with trajectories in many different locations and with many, many players.

 

I think LF in a sense has two competing goals...One is absolute power and two is to get the girl.  I think he undoubtedly sees Sansa as his Catelyn replacement and he has a need to get Sansa.  That's why we see this insane level of creepy pedo-grooming going on where LF is simultaneously telling Sansa to act like his daughter while at the same time demanding kisses and signs of affection from her.  I think ultimately that his need to get love from Sansa will be his downfall and prevent him from achieving one. For me, I like the narrative that that for as smart as LF is he has not learned the lesson he should have learned from his first failure when he fought Brandon for Catelyn.  And instead of moving on from that and going to himself "hey, maybe I wasn't meant to get the girl" there's still a major part of him that thinks Catelyn should have been his and he's replaying that out with Sansa. 

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16 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

 

This has bothered me for a while :D...I feel like the "Alayne" disguise is so see-through it's almost comical.  Like everyone knows LF's past relationship with Catelyn and Lysa and all of a sudden he shows up with this beautiful girl right around Sansa's age who looks a lot like a young Catelyn.  Sansa is said to be identical looking to Catelyn, he can dye her hair all he wants but how are more people not putting this together.  That's why I kind of like the idea that Myranda for one already suspects that Alayne is Sansa and just shows up to make the descent with Sansa and mention Jon's name just to elicit that exact reaction to confirm her suspicions.  

I

How many people in the Vale have even seen Catelyn in the last 2 decades to know that Alayne looks like her ? with Cersei searching high and low for Sansa Stark no one would ever think that Littlefinger would have the arrogance to just have her front and center in Vale , Lords have bastards all over the place so it would not be a big deal that Littlefinger has a bastard no one has seen before . Maybe Myranda suspects but it's because she is very bright and not because it's obvious . 

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2 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

How many people in the Vale have even seen Catelyn in the last 2 decades to know that Alayne looks like her ? with Cersei searching high and low for Sansa Stark no one would ever think that Littlefinger would have the arrogance to just have her front and center in Vale , Lords have bastards all over the place so it would not be a big deal that Littlefinger has a bastard no one has seen before . Maybe Myranda suspects but it's because she is very bright and not because it's obvious . 

I mean, considering that Catelyn was in the Vale in the first book I'd say many people saw her.  

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Just now, Tagganaro said:

I mean, considering that Catelyn was in the Vale in the first book I'd say many people saw her.  

And they saw Catelyn under very memorable circumstances. Catelyn kidnapped Tyrion and his trial was highly attended. No doubt Catelyn was watched closely for her reaction when Tyrion won his trial by combat. And then there would have been the interactions with those attending the trial off-page...

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21 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

If Dany is to judge and Ty his Hand, like in the show, I am sure she would be fair but... lol  However, that is not my preferred scenario.  I want them to present the evidence properly and win fairly lol.

Dany to judge what?  Joffrey's murder?  Given that he was the son and successor to the Usurper, I doubt she will care; may even think it a point in Sansa's favor.   

 

21 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Royce and her daughter Myranda are wild cards here but I think likely to go for Sansa.  My fanfic vibe, but okay fanfic, is that Sansa offers her the dowry to marry Harry in exchange for help and a lot of gold... That the Mad Mouse works for Varys (but doesn't intend to kidnap her) and that either Tyrion or someone else with the capacity to do something comes into it.  I go for Tyrion because of his connection with the Vale Tribes and she knows where the food is.

That Myranda knows who Sansa is I have little doubt.  I wouldn't be usrprised if they come to some sort of agreement over Harry, as Myranda is interested in him, and Sansa really isn't.

I think the Mad Mouse is working for himself, but wouldn't be at all surprised if one of the other knights is working for Varys.  It's a perfect opportunity to infiltrate Littlefinger's household.

21 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

As for Petyr, owning brothels and giving common girls to prostitution would be frown upon but the least of his worries.  Even against a rival king, regicide and framing people maybe a different kettle of fish.  My question would be, of course, okay, you betrayed the last why not me???

I was thinking that Sansa would not be happy to find out her friend was abused in Littlefinger's care, and would consider it asa betrayal of her trust.  I doubt that it would be sufficient to get him in trouble; not by itself.  By the way, Jeyne is not a commoner.  She has a House.  I think she is at a level of the Cassels, or possibly Podrick Payne.  Lower nobility, but definitely highborn.

21 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Sorry, forgot to answer one paragraph.  No, I disagree, Harry will only take his troops North if she is either his wife or fiancee.  Why do so otherwise?  He has nothing to gain up North without her.  Waste of bannermen if you ask me unless he gets a share of the power...

Harry has nothing to do with my suggestion of taking troops North.  I was suggesting that they would go on their own initiative, at Sansa's request.  And Harry is nobody until and unless Sweetrobin dies, and I have a feeling that won't be for a while, if ever.

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On 3/15/2018 at 1:49 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

I am more interested to learn about Sansa's feelings if she learns i) her little sister is the Lady of Winterfell, ii) her little sister is being abused and/or has fled, iii) the trumped up daughter of Winterfell's old steward was abused and had to flee. (Remember, Sansa knows that Petyr took Jeyne into his custody.) 

Well, the thing is with her being a point of view character George has to be a little careful or else he could spoil too much.  He can show us some internal conflict in Sansa, maybe even jealousy towards her siblings, especially Arya if she hears that she has married into WF and not won it in her own right.  Of course, despite the naivety and a degree of selfishness she displays in GOT (meaning the book) I don't think the author intends for her to be a totally unsympathetic character.  She even cares for Robin, who is frankly hard to like, so I think she will be rather furious when she finds out about first Arya and then okay maybe relief that it wasn't Arya but Jeyne was her best friend!  Still, I keep insisting on my idea that George is very careful when it comes to her point of view.  I mean, okay she hated being married to Tyrion (at the time) partly because she had hope for someone more alike her archetype of knight and because of his family.  Still she seems a little dismayed to hear of his arrest and yet she doesn't seem to be mad with rage at the fact that not only he was framed but her as well, and in fact her disappearance makes her look much more guilty.  Also he killed Lysa.  She may tell herself that he did it because she was about to kill her but there are signs that she doesn't trust him, so I think the rage is there but she is not allowing it to reach the surface, yet.... partly due to self-preservation because she doesn't have anywhere else to go but overall yes, I want to see her internal reaction to all these events.

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On 3/15/2018 at 5:53 AM, Lady Whitesnake said:

HH was bought and paid for.  His name at least but not his heart.  I don't think Sansa will win his heart.  This guy is a playboy.  He will not stick to one woman.  

Of course he has been bought, either with gold (suggested by payment by LF of some noble people's debts) and also either by the huge dowry he has offered for Sansa and possibly by the promise of WF.

Of course the guy is a bit of a young Robert in that regard lol but that is not a central point in my opinion.  Sansa used to dream of gallant, handsome princes but no more.  I think she would settle, if she has to marry at all, for someone who does his own thing and lets her be too.  Okay, yes, she would have to do her duty and have kids but I really don't see Sansa being in love with him.  In the sample chapter she is pretty mad at him one minute and then determined to "play" at winning him over the next.  I think 2 things are possible a) she is still hurt by his rude comments and hey what better satisfaction than make him eat his words than by making him fall for her (and a boost to her teenage ego) plus she cannot afford to antagonise LF just yet or b ) she knows he is likely to know who she is (his reaction, his rudeness in public, to me, gave it away) and she really is playing...

In any event, I expect many medieval ladies did not expect their husbands to stick with one woman and it probably wasn't even the norm that they did.  I think one of the issues with Cersei, for instance, apart from the obvious humiliation when Robert kept calling her "Lyanna" in his cups is that she was humiliated.  Had he been more discreet and not go fondling servants at feasts she may have been contented shagging Jaime discreetly also.   Okay, not our idea of modern romance and I am sure some couples did made the best of their political marriages and grew to love each other but I think, in the context, unfaithful but discreet would be tolerable in a political marriage.  Of course, someone should clip Harry around the ear and make him discreet lol

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1 hour ago, Nevets said:

Dany to judge what?  Joffrey's murder?  Given that he was the son and successor to the Usurper, I doubt she will care; may even think it a point in Sansa's favor.   

 

That Myranda knows who Sansa is I have little doubt.  I wouldn't be usrprised if they come to some sort of agreement over Harry, as Myranda is interested in him, and Sansa really isn't.

I think the Mad Mouse is working for himself, but wouldn't be at all surprised if one of the other knights is working for Varys.  It's a perfect opportunity to infiltrate Littlefinger's household.

I was thinking that Sansa would not be happy to find out her friend was abused in Littlefinger's care, and would consider it asa betrayal of her trust.  I doubt that it would be sufficient to get him in trouble; not by itself.  By the way, Jeyne is not a commoner.  She has a House.  I think she is at a level of the Cassels, or possibly Podrick Payne.  Lower nobility, but definitely highborn.

Harry has nothing to do with my suggestion of taking troops North.  I was suggesting that they would go on their own initiative, at Sansa's request.  And Harry is nobody until and unless Sweetrobin dies, and I have a feeling that won't be for a while, if ever.

Okay, yes, this is far fetched, Dany asking for the trial (on Tyrion's bequest...) However, it does seem likely plot-wise that she is going to accept Tyrion as a high level adviser when she returns to find that he turn the Second Sons for her and that that may have been decisive lol Also she took Barristan, who would have served Joff had he not been fired lol and she seems intent on justice, so yeah, a bit tin-foil for now but possible, I guess...  The only way I see Dany asking for this trial is if she has become very reliant and fond of Tyrion and "needs" him acquitted.

We agree about Myranda lol  The text seems to indicate that she may betray Sansa/Alayne because she "covets" Harry for herself but I think there is likely to be a twist.  At present, LF is unlikely to fork out the money for her dowry to Harry (for one he wants him for Sansa for now...) also even if she knows he is married to Tyrion, Tyrion is "most wanted."  Now, were he to surface with dragons lol Myranda may well get to trust that a Lannister pays his debts.  Now what debts?  Well, the ones his lawful wife has promised lol

It could well be the Mad-Mouse but sure Varys has an incline, if not evidence and Tyrion only needs to sober up a bit and calm down a bit to figure out who may had framed him, and who is likely to have taken his wife.  Okay, hard-core Stark supporters could be a possibility in his eyes, but they are currently a bit split and weakened.  If I were Tyrion and wanted to figure it out (he doesn't appear do want to do that yet), it is not hard to come up with that possibility.  Okay, maybe the Tyrells again who wanted to marry her into their house, but with Cersei around?  It would at least cross my mind.  Tyrion is interesting in ADWD because his ire is all focused on his father, Jaime, Shae etc and he didn't seem to be able to see "the forest for the trees" lol.  But this guy is on an arc and calm down he will and when he does, I would be worried if I were Petyr!  I don't think he is going to be in a stage of clinical nervous breakdown much longer and hell he has all the pieces of the puzzle, he just needs to link them!

What is Sansa to him? well, for now he is angry at her too but there was a telling statement when he said he didn't think she could have acted alone...  Okay, he tried to be good to her but still he is selfish like everyone else and she may not be his priority, but with his relationship with the Tribes, if he learns she knows where the food is... perfect sabotage!  I really want Sansa to give the "go ahead" to whoever works for Varys re the food.  Huge bold move, though, and Sansa could end up with no food herself, unless the guarantees were very solid or she left...  It could just be that in the first book when he promised him the Vale... I thought he would have to deliver lol  Now of course, if Sansa is in liege with him she will ensure she provides for the Lords that may keep faith with her.  That is where I think some sort of mini trial or something would win her their support.

Hell, no, I agree!  Sansa will be incensed about that kind of fate having befall her sister or her friend lol  She may stay mute for a while though, until she gathers her strength.  She seems to have been figuring out, or trying to, who in the Vale backs who.  That is not for nothing.  She will make use of that.  Petyr treats her like a daughter most of the time, spoils her even but she has seen too many deaths perpetrated by him and that cannot go away (unless you agree with them).  I keep saying that George is probably sorry that she made her a point of view.  It must be a nightmare to show us her thoughts without spoiling.  I think there will be a great big twist with Sansa, but one that us "nerd readers" expect! lol

Fair enough, but I think he will fall for LF's trick.  LF wants her to take the North.  No question there.  If Stannis wins and gets arsy, which he will.  My bet will try to marry Shireen to Rickon, so only give the Starks their own home by marriage into his house lol  Yes, he offered it to Jon when he didn't have a hope in hell for better...  Anyhow, betrothed but not yet married (wings for 3 years) I think Harry will charge for his and his fiancees' right and LF counts on that.  It is possible though that some other Lords may want to take WF for her, but once Rickon reappears lol

By the way, not just with you, but I love the Vale plot and it is a pleasure and a privilege to argue, agree and all the rest lol :)

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18 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

I mean, considering that Catelyn was in the Vale in the first book I'd say many people saw her.  

i can't believe that i completely forgot that Cat was in the Vale in the books , how did that slip my mind ? But it does not mean that people who saw her at 40 for that little amount of time are going to be automatically recognizing Sansa at 14 or 15 as her daughter . Maybe a few people would be able to put it together but the fact that Littlefinger would brazenly parade Sansa Stark out there like that would be hard for anybody to believe considering how badly Cersei wants her . 

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