The American Tolkien

[Light a wight tonight]

Who was it that said that said that it was OK to show a gun, which shoots death but not a penis, which shoots life? 

[The Fattest Leech]

3 hours ago, Light a wight tonight said:

Who was it that said that said that it was OK to show a gun, which shoots death but not a penis, which shoots life? 

I believe it was a story Stan Lee was telling about the hypocrisy of the comic book publishing industry at the time. And then Lee went on to draw guns as penises. But truth be told I need to double check if it was Lee that did, indeed, say this. 

[SeanF]

Calling him the American Tolkien was unfair to both authors.

Tolkien created an imaginary world with its own peoples, languages, histories, poetry solely for his own intellectual amusement.  After 21 years, he then published a childrens' novel set in this world, and then 16 years later, a novel for adults.  No other writer would do this, and it gives his stories a level of depth and world-building that is almost unique.

World-building in ASOIAF is far skimpier, and the appeal of the stories lies in the excellent characterisation.

As to darkness, The Children of Hurin  is a much darker story than ASOIAF.  It's a story that is completely without hope.

 

[Jon Fossoway]

George is far from Tolkien. Not in quality of work, but in focus, character and world development and, well, lotta shyt. He surely loves his work, as he loves Lovecraft's: but noone calls him the New Lovecraft. I'm really sure George doesn't like the motto.

I call this article bull.

[zandru]

16 hours ago, Olorin81 said:

Don't be letting your kids read these books and I sure hope some high schools aren't having some copies in their library without knowing what is really in the contents of these books.

Yeah, because post-puberty folks ("men and women grown" in Westeros) in the US have never been exposed to S*E*X*!!! and would be disturbed. Well, their parents most definitely are, and they're the ones who elect the school boards and ban the books. Some of the very best books have been banned - check out "A Wrinkle in Time".

16 hours ago, Olorin81 said:

How do you feel about the sexuality in these books? Do you feel it's necessary? Do you think Martin goes too far sometimes? Your thoughts?

Remember, with respect to sex et al, Tolkien was a very proper English gentleman, who lived in the late 19th and early 20th century - in England. The tail end of the Victorian Era. That was a radically different world than late 20th century, "let it all hang out" USA. This has to be taken into account in evaluating how scandalous or shocking George RR's writing is. Sure, he "goes too far" - as many men always have. If you disbelieve it, check out #MeToo.

This is not to everyone's taste, mine included. But it's an integral part of the story, the characters, and the world.

[Olorin81]

43 minutes ago, zandru said:

Yeah, because post-puberty folks ("men and women grown" in Westeros) in the US have never been exposed to S*E*X*!!! and would be disturbed. Well, their parents most definitely are, and they're the ones who elect the school boards and ban the books. Some of the very best books have been banned - check out "A Wrinkle in Time".

Hey I'm pretty liberal when it comes to most things, in my opinion I think Martin's books would be inappropriate for a public school library as much as the Fifty Shades of Grey series who one other person on here pointed out is fairly tame compared to some BDSM novels. High School kids can go ahead and read ASOIAF outside of school, I don't care.

[Tom Cruise]

I love Tolkien, but he's got NOTHING on GRRM.  I'm biased, in that I consider GRRM one of the best writers.  Ever.  Period.  I do not put Tolkien in that category at all.

[Olorin81]

35 minutes ago, Tom Cruise said:

I love Tolkien, but he's got NOTHING on GRRM.  I'm biased, in that I consider GRRM one of the best writers.  Ever.  Period.  I do not put Tolkien in that category at all.

Tom Cruise, easy there, don't make me nut punch you. hahaha JK. I'm the other way I'm huge Tolkien fan, I have Tolkien's sigil tattoed on my forearm.

[Ygrain]

12 minutes ago, Olorin81 said:

I have Tolkien's sigil tattoed on my forearm.

Lol, who might have guessed, given your nick

I have no problem with sexual scenes, it is murders of babies that I find way more disturbing, but at the same time I am aware that it still pales in comparison with horrors comitted over the centuries.

As for the comparison: it remains to be seen if ASOIAF maintains its appeal after the books are finished, because the appeal of the unrevealed is a part of its charm, I think.

 

 

[zandru]

5 hours ago, Olorin81 said:

in my opinion I think Martin's books would be inappropriate for a public school library as much as the Fifty Shades of Grey series

Well, I'm going to defer to the librarians on this one. School librarians (and others) have a pretty strong creed of making information available. Parents, even more so in these "helicopter-parenting" days, tend to over-protectiveness. Note that I'm not saying ALL parents are like this!

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

it is murders of babies that I find way more disturbing

Here, here! One can grow tired and bored with Tyrion's subservience to his mighty cock (not to mention poor, too-long celibate Arys Oakhead), but slaughter of the innocents is always appalling.

[The Sunland Lord]

22 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

We are not important

This is wrong, in my opinion. If this was the case, he'd write it and read it to himself at night.

[Kandrax]

18 minutes ago, zandru said:

but slaughter of the innocents is always appalling

Unless they are Freys, for some people

[Lord Lannister]

I'll admit that Tolkien's work has lost some of it's luster to me. It could just be I've gotten older and outgrown it, it could be I've exposed myself to it all and it's done. I think it has something to do with the "good vs evil" having no shades of gray. Star Wars has similarly lost it's appeal to me as I've gotten older. Martin certainly overlaps almost everything with shades of gray. Though he's certainly less focused than Tolken in the quality and direction of his work.

[Ygrain]

9 hours ago, zandru said:

Here, here! One can grow tired and bored with Tyrion's subservience to his mighty cock (not to mention poor, too-long celibate Arys Oakhead), but slaughter of the innocents is always appalling.

Well... a mother's madness, what can I say.

7 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I'll admit that Tolkien's work has lost some of it's luster to me. It could just be I've gotten older and outgrown it, it could be I've exposed myself to it all and it's done. I think it has something to do with the "good vs evil" having no shades of gray.

Er... there are not many but they do exist. For example, is Denethor with his "it should have been you" a good or an evil character? Fëanor's sons? - Celegorm and Curufin are certainly D-bags, but what about Maedhros?

7 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Star Wars has similarly lost it's appeal to me as I've gotten older.

You need to meet some expanded universe characters, there's a lot of interesting stuff there. I've met them only recentyl and they are way more appealing than MaRey Sue.

7 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Martin certainly overlaps almost everything with shades of gray. Though he's certainly less focused than Tolken in the quality and direction of his work.

Agreed.

[Lollygag]

On the lighter side, this covers a lot for me. 

 

[SeanF]

19 hours ago, Olorin81 said:

Hey I'm pretty liberal when it comes to most things, in my opinion I think Martin's books would be inappropriate for a public school library as much as the Fifty Shades of Grey series who one other person on here pointed out is fairly tame compared to some BDSM novels. High School kids can go ahead and read ASOIAF outside of school, I don't care.

Roughly, I'd suggest 16 would be an appropriate age to read these novels.  Not because of the sex, but because I think that a lot of the violence (eg Chiswick's jolly tale about gang-raping an Innkeep's daughter, the Reek chapters, Arya's journey through the Riverlands) would be upsetting to younger readers.

[SeanF]

18 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Lol, who might have guessed, given your nick

I have no problem with sexual scenes, it is murders of babies that I find way more disturbing, but at the same time I am aware that it still pales in comparison with horrors comitted over the centuries.

As for the comparison: it remains to be seen if ASOIAF maintains its appeal after the books are finished, because the appeal of the unrevealed is a part of its charm, I think.

 

 

There is as much horror in Tolkien as in ASOIAF (eg severed heads being catapulted into Minas Tirith, the descriptions of the Dead Marshes and Mordor,  the "dreadful place of feast and slaughter" discovered by Sam, the Watcher in the Water, the werewolves slaying and eating Beren's companions, Morgoth's genetic experiments on elves,  Gollum eating babies, the Numenoreans resorting to human sacrifice, etc.) but what he doesn't provide are graphic accounts of torture and abuse.  Partly because he was writing in the 1950's (although there were some pretty explicit books produced at the time, like The Knights of Bushido) but more because of his nature.  In one of his letters, he commented that he loathed reading and writing violent scenes and even hated having to write about Frodo being whipped by orcs.

[Ygrain]

18 minutes ago, SeanF said:

There is as much horror in Tolkien as in ASOIAF (eg severed heads being catapulted into Minas Tirith, the descriptions of the Dead Marshes and Mordor,  the "dreadful place of feast and slaughter" discovered by Sam, the Watcher in the Water, the werewolves slaying and eating Beren's companions, Morgoth's genetic experiments on elves,  Gollum eating babies, the Numenoreans resorting to human sacrifice, etc.) but what he doesn't provide are graphic accounts of torture and abuse.  Partly because he was writing in the 1950's (although there were some pretty explicit books produced at the time, like The Knights of Bushido) but more because of his nature.  In one of his letters, he commented that he loathed reading and writing violent scenes and even hated having to write about Frodo being whipped by orcs.

Indeed, there is a lot of dark in Tolkien, but people mostly don't notice because the narrative doesn't focus on the gruesome stuff (BTW, you've left out Gollum trying to reach the dead in the Marshes to eat them).

[Lord Varys]

I daresay, the whole comparison there is about sales and popularity in the fantasy genre. This isn't about comparison between the two authors.

[Lord Lannister]

6 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Er... there are not many but they do exist. For example, is Denethor with his "it should have been you" a good or an evil character? Fëanor's sons? - Celegorm and Curufin are certainly D-bags, but what about Maedhros?

You need to meet some expanded universe characters, there's a lot of interesting stuff there. I've met them only recentyl and they are way more appealing than MaRey Sue.

Agreed.

Denethor was probably one of the most interesting, not to mention tragic, characters in the series. Really a shame he was portrayed as little more than a lunatic in the movies. For that matter Boromir was also the heart of good intentions with corrupt means.

Oh I was an avid fan of the EU, though lost interest about the time Yuuzahn Vong came along. Zahn and Stackpole were probably my favorite authors there. There were certainly some interesting characters as you say, Pellaeon, Borsk, Talon, etc, but overall the theme of good vs evil was fairly consistent, and fairly stale, especially when the Force users got involved. It just seems something I outgrew for the most part even if I've fond memories. I was pleasantly surprised in the last movie when Kylo seemed to be trying to escape that mold for just a moment. Though yeah, didn't help my perception of the genre when the movies handwaved the EU away.