The American Tolkien

[Ygrain]

6 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Denethor was probably one of the most interesting, not to mention tragic, characters in the series. Really a shame he was portrayed as little more than a lunatic in the movies.

Grr, don't even mention the abomination!

6 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

For that matter Boromir was also the heart of good intentions with corrupt means.

Pride cometh before the fall... were this GRRMth, though, he wouldn't have been offed so conveniently and then things could become very interesting between him and Aragorn.

6 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Oh I was an avid fan of the EU, though lost interest about the time Yuuzahn Vong came along. Zahn and Stackpole were probably my favorite authors there. There were certainly some interesting characters as you say, Pellaeon, Borsk, Talon, etc, but overall the theme of good vs evil was fairly consistent, and fairly stale, especially when the Force users got involved. It just seems something I outgrew for the most part even if I've fond memories.

I've become acquainted with only a fragment so far and mostly with the games, where I find some characters pretty compelling (Starkiller and Revan).

6 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I was pleasantly surprised in the last movie when Kylo seemed to be trying to escape that mold for just a moment.

Yeah, Kylo is the only interesting character of the new bunch.... but if he aspires to be the top villain, he knows nothing   Little wonder that he has that inferiority complex towards Vader, though.

6 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Though yeah, didn't help my perception of the genre when the movies handwaved the EU away.

Yep. It's really a shame, and doubly so when SW Rebels, a children's show, gets more interesting moments than the main medium.

[Lord Lannister]

4 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Grr, don't even mention the abomination!

Pride cometh before the fall... were this GRRMth, though, he wouldn't have been offed so conveniently and then things could become very interesting between him and Aragorn.

I've become acquainted with only a fragment so far and mostly with the games, where I find some characters pretty compelling (Starkiller and Revan).

Yeah, Kylo is the only interesting character of the new bunch.... but if he aspires to be the top villain, he knows nothing   Little wonder that he has that inferiority complex towards Vader, though.

Yep. It's really a shame, and doubly so when SW Rebels, a children's show, gets more interesting moments than the main medium.

Well it's hard to ignore the movies. It some ways they could've been so much more, in others I just wish they'd have left it alone. But too much money to be made there, as turning the Hobbit into three movies proved.

Think of how tragic it would've been for poor Faramir if he had to be the one to kill Boromir for not supporting Aragorn as king? All kinds of story potential between the stewards and the king. Also more than a minor convenience that Aragorn's line just randomly decided all to hang out up North rather than claim their birthright that the stewards were so obligatory in waiting for. Rather than you know... crowning themselves after a generation.

Haven't played too many of the SW games, but those two I have. A sign of a good game is where you give the player the choice of how the protagonist does things and ultimately control of their fate. As reading books likely isn't outlandish for you since you're here discussing Martin and Tolkien, I'd recommend you read Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy of books. Heir to the Empire, Dark Force Rising and the Last Command. It captures the original cast in their full glory, creates possibly the most compelling villain under the Star Wars label, and tells an epic tale. I even loved that all three titles had multiple meanings. This is the story they should've used for the sequel trilogy, though knowing Hollywood they probably would've botched it. They're definitely the best of the lot of the EU though there are a lot of other good ones.

Kylo, I don't know... he's the most interesting character of the lot, but I'm not sure if I'd call him a compelling character. Honestly at some points I was expecting a scene of him lovingly stroking the Vader helmet whispering "My precious..."

Haven't seen SW Rebels, but it wouldn't surprise me.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Grr, don't even mention the abomination!

Pride cometh before the fall... were this GRRMth, though, he wouldn't have been offed so conveniently and then things could become very interesting between him and Aragorn.

I've become acquainted with only a fragment so far and mostly with the games, where I find some characters pretty compelling (Starkiller and Revan).

Yeah, Kylo is the only interesting character of the new bunch.... but if he aspires to be the top villain, he knows nothing   Little wonder that he has that inferiority complex towards Vader, though.

Yep. It's really a shame, and doubly so when SW Rebels, a children's show, gets more interesting moments than the main medium.

Film Denethor was simply .......horrible.  I enjoyed Parts 1 and 2 but the Return of the King will be forever marred by Denethor, the Ride of the Rohirrim being rendered pointless when Aragorn unleashed the soap bubbles of death on the armies of Mordor, and the cut and paste job of the last hour or so.

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

Think of how tragic it would've been for poor Faramir if he had to be the one to kill Boromir for not supporting Aragorn as king?

If such a fanfiction already exists, I want to read it!

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

All kinds of story potential between the stewards and the king. Also more than a minor convenience that Aragorn's line just randomly decided all to hang out up North rather than claim their birthright that the stewards were so obligatory in waiting for. Rather than you know... crowning themselves after a generation.

Ten thousand years doesn't suffice in Gondor, remember? 

Besides, the stewards were kings in all but name, and they seemed pretty happy with the status quo - claiming the fancy title might have ruffled some feathers with the likes of Dol Amroth or other noble houses, but without it, they still had the power which no-one was entitled to question.

Also, if things hadn't gone so south in Gondor (pun intended), I don't think some ragtag northern chieftain would ever stand a chance of claiming the crown. - More the pity that we didn't get Aragorn confronting Denethor or Boromir, when even a loving brother believes that Aragorn and Boromir would have become rivals!

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

Haven't played too many of the SW games, but those two I have. A sign of a good game is where you give the player the choice of how the protagonist does things and ultimately control of their fate.

I haven't played the games, only watched the story cut.

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

As reading books likely isn't outlandish for you since you're here discussing Martin and Tolkien, I'd recommend you read Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy of books. Heir to the Empire, Dark Force Rising and the Last Command. It captures the original cast in their full glory, creates possibly the most compelling villain under the Star Wars label, and tells an epic tale. I even loved that all three titles had multiple meanings. This is the story they should've used for the sequel trilogy, though knowing Hollywood they probably would've botched it. They're definitely the best of the lot of the EU though there are a lot of other good ones.

I listened to the audiobook of Thrawn's rise in the Empire's ranks and enjoyed it a lot, but as for Zahn... I tried Heir to the Empire twice but somehow, I lost interest very soon, dunno why. But perhaps a third time might make the charm :-)

 

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

Kylo, I don't know... he's the most interesting character of the lot, but I'm not sure if I'd call him a compelling character.

In comparison with Rey, anyone seems compelling.

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

Honestly at some points I was expecting a scene of him lovingly stroking the Vader helmet whispering "My precious..."

ROFLMAO!

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

Haven't seen SW Rebels, but it wouldn't surprise me.

If Thrawn is your favourite antagonist, then you might want to, because he gets to shine there since season 3.

On the whole, there is - unsurprisingly - some childish stuff in the show but there are also some pretty intense, epic and dark moments, especially in the seasons' finales. I wouldn't have believed what can be conveyed with animated characters before.

 

 

47 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Film Denethor was simply .......horrible.  I enjoyed Parts 1 and 2 but the Return of the King will be forever marred by Denethor, the Ride of the Rohirrim being rendered pointless when Aragorn unleashed the soap bubbles of death on the armies of Mordor, and the cut and paste job of the last hour or so.

I enjoyed FOTR even though it had some weak moments (especially the characterisation of Frodo who practically became a damsel in distress), but since TTT, I was mostly and thoroughly disapponted, seeing so much sacrificed for the sake of visual effects or cheap humour, and the horribly repetitive and unimaginative writing. The last defence behind the last door again, really? Rohan wouldn't fight, Ents wouldn't fight, Gondor wouldn't fight? Merry and Pippin are presumed dead, Aragorn is presumed dead... yaaaaawn. Such a wasted opportunity.

BTW, "Soap bubbles of death" is nice but I rather go with "gooseberry jelly".

[Lord Lannister]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

If such a fanfiction already exists, I want to read it!

Ten thousand years doesn't suffice in Gondor, remember? 

Besides, the stewards were kings in all but name, and they seemed pretty happy with the status quo - claiming the fancy title might have ruffled some feathers with the likes of Dol Amroth or other noble houses, but without it, they still had the power which no-one was entitled to question.

Also, if things hadn't gone so south in Gondor (pun intended), I don't think some ragtag northern chieftain would ever stand a chance of claiming the crown. - More the pity that we didn't get Aragorn confronting Denethor or Boromir, when even a loving brother believes that Aragorn and Boromir would have become rivals!

I haven't played the games, only watched the story cut.

I listened to the audiobook of Thrawn's rise in the Empire's ranks and enjoyed it a lot, but as for Zahn... I tried Heir to the Empire twice but somehow, I lost interest very soon, dunno why. But perhaps a third time might make the charm :-)

In comparison with Rey, anyone seems compelling.

ROFLMAO!

If Thrawn is your favourite antagonist, then you might want to, because he gets to shine there since season 3.

On the whole, there is - unsurprisingly - some childish stuff in the show but there are also some pretty intense, epic and dark moments, especially in the seasons' finales. I wouldn't have believed what can be conveyed with animated characters before.

Been ages since I've messed with fanfiction.net, but I'm sure there's something there. I don't know, just seems to me someone would've been corrupt enough to want to seize the crown in all that time. But in some ways the characters in Middle Earth are two dimensional in their morality and motivations even if the world is fully fleshed out and complete.

Thrawn plays a large role in the old TIE Fighter game, where you pretty much are along for the ride with his rise to power. As for the books, I was instantly hooked, but if it's not your thing then it's not. To me it just seemed to capture the feel of the old movies, coupled with a villain that wins through his genius against the odds rather than overpowering strength. A lot of memorable characters and shades of gray in this one too.

You really have it out for Rey don't you? Honestly she's not even interesting enough for me to spend the time thinking about her unless she's on a screen I'm watching at the time. To be fair though, most of her Mary Sue'ish traits were the same ones Luke had, just dialed up beyond any subtlety.

That's probably my biggest hurdle, would be the child thing. I just picture Ewoks and Jar Jar when I picture Star Wars childrens shows. Though childrens shows can be utterly complex, compelling and dark while still maintaining a PG rating. Gargoyles was one of them. A show that inspired me to pick up Shakespeare as a kid so I could figure out some of what's going on.

[Ygrain]

21 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

You really have it out for Rey don't you? Honestly she's not even interesting enough for me to spend the time thinking about her unless she's on a screen I'm watching at the time. To be fair though, most of her Mary Sue'ish traits were the same ones Luke had, just dialed up beyond any subtlety.

I certainly cannot claim that Luke was a particularly complex character, but at least he had to learn stuff before he started performing and when he fucked up, it had consequences for him. Whereas Miss Perfect just excels at anything she puts her hands on without even losing one, always does the right thing and hasn't had a single Dark side moment whatsoever.

21 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

That's probably my biggest hurdle, would be the child thing. I just picture Ewoks and Jar Jar when I picture Star Wars childrens shows. Though childrens shows can be utterly complex, compelling and dark while still maintaining a PG rating. Gargoyles was one of them. A show that inspired me to pick up Shakespeare as a kid so I could figure out some of what's going on.

Sounds like something I might want to try out. I've developed quite some appreciation for children's shows ever since Avatar: The Last Airbender and both Clone Wars and Rebels are high on my list of favourites (the Clone Wars do take some time to get used to). If you want to get a taste of what the Rebels can be like and don't mind spoilers, you can watch a certain duel.

[Kandrax]

7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

cheap humour

Especially Gimli, who was never comic-relief character in the books.

[Varysblackfyre321]

9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I certainly cannot claim that Luke was a particularly complex character, but at least he had to learn stuff before he started performing and when he fucked up, it had consequences for him. Whereas Miss Perfect just excels at anything she puts her hands on without even losing one, always does the right thing and hasn't had a single Dark side moment whatsoever.

You're right. Luke's first encounter with Darth Vader ended with Luke  losing his hand. He was manhandled, brutalizied, and traumatized and he was damn near broken. He was shown he was a rookie that him blowing up the Death Star did not elevate him to the level of power of legends. Ray was nothing more than an orphan but she's shown to more knowledge of the millennium falcon than Han freaking Solo trounced, Kylo(injured yes still though), in the first movie, trounced him again in the second movie and even trounced Luke.

9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Sounds like something I might want to try out. I've developed quite some appreciation for children's shows ever since Avatar: The Last Airbender and both Clone Wars and Rebels are high on my list of favourites (the Clone Wars do take some time to get used to). If you want to get a taste of what the Rebels can be like and don't mind spoilers, you can watch a certain duel.

I don't think children's shows is applicable to many great cartoons. Dora the explora is a children's show. Shows like Gargoyle, Avatar the last airbender, they're, they're shows for everyone and can appeal to children. 

[Ygrain]

6 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Especially Gimli, who was never comic-relief character in the books.

He does provide some humour in the books, but never in such a stupid and undignified way. He is a respected warrior, not a bumbling idiot. If the book Gimli ever got to our world, he and his axe would have some talking with Jackson (and he wouldn't be the only character desiring such a talk very much).

3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

You're right. Luke's first encounter with Darth Vader ended with Luke  losing his hand. He was manhandled, brutalizied, and traumatized and he was damn near broken. He was shown he was a rookie that him blowing up the Death Star did not elevate him to the level of power of legends.

Exactly. A hero must struggle and overcome hardship, so that we could root for him/her. How am I supposed to root for someone who just keeps winning without breaking  a sweat, who never doubts or falters? In that final duel in ROTJ, Luke is so overcome with anger and hatred that we can reasonably fear what he might do next. Rey? Somewhere along the way, someone came up with the idea that a strong female character means that she has no flaws and never loses. That, however, is not strength, that is Mary Poppins Sue. Damn, if she at least accepted Kylo's offer, so that we could watch each trying to turn the other!

Besides, because of what happened to Luke in ESB, it is perfectly understandable why he appears in ROTJ wearing black, using force choke and nearly succumbing to the dark side. Whereas how he got from there to wanting to murder his young nephew in his sleep and abandoning everyone and everything to their fate, I will never understand.

 

 

 

[Kandrax]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

He does provide some humour in the books, but never in such a stupid and undignified way. He is a respected warrior, not a bumbling idiot. If the book Gimli ever got to our world, he and his axe would have some talking with Jackson (and he wouldn't be the only character desiring such a talk very much).

Speaking about movies, i never liked decision for Bombadur to be mute.

[SeanF]

18 hours ago, Ygrain said:

If such a fanfiction already exists, I want to read it!

Ten thousand years doesn't suffice in Gondor, remember? 

Besides, the stewards were kings in all but name, and they seemed pretty happy with the status quo - claiming the fancy title might have ruffled some feathers with the likes of Dol Amroth or other noble houses, but without it, they still had the power which no-one was entitled to question.

Also, if things hadn't gone so south in Gondor (pun intended), I don't think some ragtag northern chieftain would ever stand a chance of claiming the crown. - More the pity that we didn't get Aragorn confronting Denethor or Boromir, when even a loving brother believes that Aragorn and Boromir would have become rivals!

I haven't played the games, only watched the story cut.

I listened to the audiobook of Thrawn's rise in the Empire's ranks and enjoyed it a lot, but as for Zahn... I tried Heir to the Empire twice but somehow, I lost interest very soon, dunno why. But perhaps a third time might make the charm :-)

 

In comparison with Rey, anyone seems compelling.

ROFLMAO!

If Thrawn is your favourite antagonist, then you might want to, because he gets to shine there since season 3.

On the whole, there is - unsurprisingly - some childish stuff in the show but there are also some pretty intense, epic and dark moments, especially in the seasons' finales. I wouldn't have believed what can be conveyed with animated characters before.

 

 

I enjoyed FOTR even though it had some weak moments (especially the characterisation of Frodo who practically became a damsel in distress), but since TTT, I was mostly and thoroughly disapponted, seeing so much sacrificed for the sake of visual effects or cheap humour, and the horribly repetitive and unimaginative writing. The last defence behind the last door again, really? Rohan wouldn't fight, Ents wouldn't fight, Gondor wouldn't fight? Merry and Pippin are presumed dead, Aragorn is presumed dead... yaaaaawn. Such a wasted opportunity.

BTW, "Soap bubbles of death" is nice but I rather go with "gooseberry jelly".

To be fair, I think it was @La Cygne who coined the expression, but I like it a lot.

[Ygrain]

3 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Speaking about movies, i never liked decision for Bombadur to be mute.

Do you mean Bombur from The Hobbit? I saw only the middle part and refused to watch the rest, so I didn't even catch that.

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

To be fair, I think it was @La Cygne who coined the expression, but I like it a lot.

Oh, it is a lovely one for sure! Got any other? We had a caulliflower orc, skateboarding Legolas, Minas Tirith built from Russian concrete (referring to a hushed scandal of a hospital built using some superhard concrete of Russian - Soviet - production, which, however, started to crumble about two decades later), Gandalf the dental surgeon and x-rayed Galadriel.

[SeanF]

59 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Do you mean Bombur from The Hobbit? I saw only the middle part and refused to watch the rest, so I didn't even catch that.

Oh, it is a lovely one for sure! Got any other? We had a caulliflower orc, skateboarding Legolas, Minas Tirith built from Russian concrete (referring to a hushed scandal of a hospital built using some superhard concrete of Russian - Soviet - production, which, however, started to crumble about two decades later), Gandalf the dental surgeon and x-rayed Galadriel.

A lot of people claim to spot a resemblance between the cauliflower orc and the current Speaker of the House of Commons.

[Olorin81]

On ‎03‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 3:54 AM, SeanF said:

There is as much horror in Tolkien as in ASOIAF (eg severed heads being catapulted into Minas Tirith, the descriptions of the Dead Marshes and Mordor,  the "dreadful place of feast and slaughter" discovered by Sam, the Watcher in the Water, the werewolves slaying and eating Beren's companions, Morgoth's genetic experiments on elves,  Gollum eating babies, the Numenoreans resorting to human sacrifice, etc.) but what he doesn't provide are graphic accounts of torture and abuse.  Partly because he was writing in the 1950's (although there were some pretty explicit books produced at the time, like The Knights of Bushido) but more because of his nature.  In one of his letters, he commented that he loathed reading and writing violent scenes and even hated having to write about Frodo being whipped by orcs.

Yes Tolkien had some dark stuff but certainly wasn't as graphic in his description and focus of it as GRRM, which Ygrain pointed out. That severed heads being catapulted into Minas Tirith scene has to probably be the most gruesome thing in the Lord of the Rings and that still is fairly tame in it's description compared to what GRRM does in his books.

[Kandrax]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Bombur

Yeah, i mean Bombur. He is mute in the movie, even though he was one of the four dwarves in the book to have more than three lines.

[SeanF]

32 minutes ago, Olorin81 said:

Yes Tolkien had some dark stuff but certainly wasn't as graphic in his description and focus of it as GRRM, which Ygrain pointed out. That severed heads being catapulted into Minas Tirith scene has to probably be the most gruesome thing in the Lord of the Rings and that still is fairly tame in it's description compared to what GRRM does in his books.

GRRM would have had a description of the armies of Mordor lining up their captives and torturing them in view of the defenders, before lobbing their heads over the wall.

[Ygrain]

58 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Yeah, i mean Bombur. He is mute in the movie, even though he was one of the four dwarves in the book to have more than three lines.

Well... just one more among the ton of bad decisions Jackson made.

57 minutes ago, SeanF said:

GRRM would have had a description of the armies of Mordor lining up their captives and torturing them in view of the defenders, before lobbing their heads over the wall.

You mean, just like dismembering and beheading Gelmir right in front of  his brother? Ah, wait... that was also Tolkien

Silmarillion is dark and full of terrors.

[HexMachina]

1 hour ago, Olorin81 said:

Yes Tolkien had some dark stuff but certainly wasn't as graphic in his description and focus of it as GRRM, which Ygrain pointed out. That severed heads being catapulted into Minas Tirith scene has to probably be the most gruesome thing in the Lord of the Rings and that still is fairly tame in it's description compared to what GRRM does in his books.

Saruman's... "Breeding program" was far more disturbing imo. As was the implication that gollum would snatch babies from cradles and eat them...

When you expand Tolkien to cover the Silmarillion and related stories there is even more horror of course, but there is plenty in LOTR alone.

[Olorin81]

14 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Saruman's... "Breeding program" was far more disturbing imo. As was the implication that gollum would snatch babies from cradles and eat them...

When you expand Tolkien to cover the Silmarillion and related stories there is even more horror of course, but there is plenty in LOTR alone.

His "breeding program" as you call it wasn't very detailed, pretty vague if you ask me. It's only disturbing when you think about it. Tolkien never went into it in graphic detail like GRRM maybe would have lol. He never gave us graphic scenes of Orcs raping women. You probably have to go to some naughty fanfiction for that. In fact I think it was implied that Saruman used some kind of sorcery to "breed" his half orcs.

[Lord Varys]

43 minutes ago, Olorin81 said:

His "breeding program" as you call it wasn't very detailed, pretty vague if you ask me. It's only disturbing when you think about it. Tolkien never went into it in graphic detail like GRRM maybe would have lol. He never gave us graphic scenes of Orcs raping women. You probably have to go to some naughty fanfiction for that. In fact I think it was implied that Saruman used some kind of sorcery to "breed" his half orcs.

That is actually not implied. What is actually stated is that the good guys consider some of the men in Saruman's army to be 'half-orcs', more like humans than like orcs. Which very much implies that orc-women were impregnated by human men or vice versa. Saruman began to fortify Isengard shortly after the last meeting with the White Council and was working actively (sort of) with Sauron since around 3,000 TA. He had time to produce at least 1-2 generations of half-breeds the conventional way.

It is, of course, true that we don't have text covering any of this stuff, but it is implied by the fact that those creatures exist.

In general, Tolkien clearly can claim to be more thorough world-builder in certain respects (most due to the fact that he took fifty years creating his world as a recreational activity - he was never a professional writer, dependent on selling stories or novels to earn a living) but George clearly creates more convincing and realistic characters and the better plots.