The American Tolkien

[Olorin81]

It's funny on Wikipedia it says "In 2005, Lev Grossman of Time called Martin "the American Tolkien". Now don't get me wrong, I love the the Song of Ice and Fire books, I also love Tolkien's books The Silmarillion, The Hobbit and LOTR. I've read them all. But man Martin's books are kind of a bit raunchy compared to Lord of the Rings. I'd say it's more like Lord of the Rings combined with Fifty Shades of Grey lol. Fans of the tv show giving you some warning first, that rape scene with Ramsay Bolton and Sansa Stark is tame way way tame compared to what is in the books. I've read the books before and now I'm listening to them again on audio book and some parts make me squirm uncomfortable. Don't be letting your kids read these books and I sure hope some high schools aren't having some copies in their library without knowing what is really in the contents of these books.

How do you feel about the sexuality in these books? Do you feel it's necessary? Do you think Martin goes too far sometimes? Your thoughts?

[ravenous reader]

1 minute ago, Olorin81 said:

It's funny on Wikipedia it says "In 2005, Lev Grossman of Time called Martin "the American Tolkien". Now don't get me wrong, I love the the Song of Ice and Fire books, I also love Tolkien's books The Silmarillion, The Hobbit and LOTR. I've read them all. But man Martin's books are kind of a bit raunchy compared to Lord of the Rings. I'd say it's more like Lord of the Rings combined with Fifty Shades of Grey lol. Fans of the tv show giving you some warning first, that rape scene with Ramsay Bolton and Sansa Stark is tame way way tame compared to what is in the books. I've read the books before and now I'm listening to them again on audio book and some parts make me squirm uncomfortable. Don't be letting your kids read these books and I sure hope some high schools aren't having some copies in their library without knowing what is really in the contents of these books.

How do you feel about the sexuality in these books? Do you feel it's necessary? Your thoughts?

GRRM likes to drop a lot of sexual/anal/scatalogical metaphors.  As to the usefulness of the symbolism, I think it ultimately boils down to 'ME-LISA-ANDRE'...GRRM not having gotten over Lisa Tuttle leaving him for another man (mystery man X or 'Andre'...in Danish, translated as 'the Other' man!) -- and he himself 'squirming uncomfortable'.  He keeps repeating the fingerprint of this love triangle, perhaps unconsciously. Now we wait for the censors...

[kissdbyfire]

I would never say ASoIaF is raunchy.

And imo if we are comparing it w/ LotR, I'd say it's the other way around: LotR is a bit prudish or puritanical. 

Also, any show discussion is a no-no here. For show talk, please use the show forum. So, yeah, the abomination may be called raunchy I guess, but as I've said, no show talk here.

Martin shows sex - the good, the bad, and the ugly - because sex is a part of life. As is death, births, etc. 

 

[The Fattest Leech]

The sex is just where the author wanted it to be and all of it is on purpose. 

Make you feel sexy? On purpose.

Make you feel uncomfortable? Intended

Make you angry and want to throw your books in to the fire? Yup. That was the intent. To envoke emotion from the reader. 

George has no problem with pushing boundaries, and he has also said that he is *not* writing the same type of story as Tolkien. Just that people always ask him about that comparison so he answers. 

[Kandrax]

I don't think it's good to compare them.

Asoiaf is ten time darker than lotr.

Lotr is good vs evil, while in Asoiaf every side (though not every character) have some grayness in it.

[ravenous reader]

4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The sex is just where the author wanted it to be and all of it is on purpose. 

Make you feel sexy? On purpose.

Make you feel uncomfortable? Intended

Make you angry and want to throw your books in to the fire? Yup. That was the intent. To envoke emotion from the reader. 

George has no problem with pushing boundaries, and he has also said that he is *not* writing the same type of story as Tolkien. Just that people always ask him about that comparison so he answers. 

Hi Leech. I don't think that's the intent.  We are not important, Tolkien less so... he is working out his own issues, hurts, resentments, envies, lusts, using the same metaphor... It is a very personal work.  Our attention and scrutiny must boggle his mind!

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, ravenous reader said:

Hi Leech. I don't think that's the intent.  We are not important, Tolkien less so... he is working out his own issues, hurts, resentments, envies, lusts, using the same metaphor... It is a very personal work.  Our attention and scrutiny must boggle his mind!

I disagree to an extent. I do agree that he is writing his own story. However, he has worked through his mental crushes in many of his stories past. So much so that they could be stitched together as an AOIAF patchwork of stories when combined with his other past stories. He wrote specific stories in specific dark times, but he moved in past them as he did in his real love life. Remember, he did end up and marrying his love after decades of being together. This is reflected in his “happier” stories that come later (not really happy, but not Meathouse Man either), Of which he also uses details from his favorite movie that has a bittersweet ending that has the “lives” pair off. 

Lisa Tutttle is not his only “muse”. He has used the names and likenesses of his friends, football players, Seasame Street, his (late) cat with his current wife, and his many other author friends. Tuttle is one aspect of one arc (possibly) and that is of Lysa Tully, Baelish, and Cat. Melisandre is based on Morgan Le Fey from his story Bitterblooms (and a few other of his charlatans) and I have to accept his word on this because while he is a tricksy bird, he isn’t a liar.  

[ravenous reader]

6 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I disagree to an extent. I do agree that he is writing his own story. However, he has worked through his mental crushes in many of his stories past. So much so that they could be stitched together as an AOIAF patchwork of stories when combined with his other past stories. He wrote specific stories in specific dark times, but he moved in past them as he did in his real love life. Remember, he did end up and marrying his love after decades of being together. This is reflected in his “happier” stories that come later (not really happy, but not Meathouse Man either), Of which he also uses details from his favorite movie that has a bittersweet ending that has the “lives” pair off. 

Lisa Tutttle is not his only “muse”. He has used the names and likenesses of his friends, football players, Seasame Street, his (late) cat with his current wife, and his many other author friends. Tuttle is one aspect of one arc (possibly) and that is of Lysa Tully, Baelish, and Cat. Melisandre is based on Morgan Le Fey from his story Bitterblooms (and a few other of his charlatans) and I have to accept his word on this because while he is a tricksy bird, he isn’t a liar.  

I can't think of another reason why he must repeat the same triangle again and again, and again.  LmL calls it the sun-moon-comet signature; I call it Me-Lisa-'n Andre.  No, I don't think he's over it.

[The Fattest Leech]

4 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I can't think of another reason why he must repeat the same triangle again and again, and again.  LmL calls it the sun-moon-comet signature; I call it Me-Lisa-'n Andre.  No, I don't think he's over it.

GRRM repeats a TON TON TON of his own themes. The love triangle is not the only one by far. If I were to list them all, this would turn into a shitfest of haters on all sides. You’ll find politics, religion, society (or rather the breakdown of each) in every story, where the love triangles are only in a few (by comparison). 

He has come to terms with it as a life event and it is now a theme he adds to his many other themes. And really I wouldn’t want it any other way or we wouldn’t have four decades+ of amazing GRRM-not-Tolkien material to read. 

And he does think about his readers. It’s one of the stories he tells about the difficulties of getting some past, gloomy stories published. They didn’t work for the readers... until he tweeked them...

[Olorin81]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

I would never say ASoIaF is raunchy.

And imo if we are comparing it w/ LotR, I'd say it's the other way around: LotR is a bit prudish or puritanical. 

Also, any show discussion is a no-no here. For show talk, please use the show forum. So, yeah, the abomination may be called raunchy I guess, but as I've said, no show talk here.

Martin shows sex - the good, the bad, and the ugly - because sex is a part of life. As is death, births, etc. 

 

It is not intended to be a discussion of the tv show, it was just a little comment about how much more sexually explicit the books are than the tv show and that in itself is not the intended topic of this thread. Though I know how one little comment can create a thread to go off on a whole other tangent. I don't mean this to be a comparison of the sexuality between the tv show and the books. Only to my question at the end of my first post.

How do you feel about the sexuality in these books? Do you feel it's necessary? Do you think Martin goes too far sometimes? Your thoughts?

[ravenous reader]

Just now, The Fattest Leech said:

GRRM repeats a TON TON TON of his own themes. The love triangle is not the only one by far. If I were to bake them all, this would turn into a shitfest of haters on all sides. You’ll find politics in religion (or rather the breakdown of each) in every story, where the love triangles are only in a few (by comparison). 

He has come to terms with it as a life event and it is now a theme he adds to his many other themes. And really I wouldn’t want it any other way or we wouldn’t have four decades+ of amazing GRRM-not-Tolkien material to read. 

And he does think about his readers. It’s one of the stories he tells about the difficulties of getting some past, gloomy stories published. They didn’t work for the readers... until he tweeked them...

So -- please answer the only question that matters:

We all know that THAT he repeats himself; but, WHY does he repeat himself?

[Leo of House Cartel]

1 hour ago, Olorin81 said:

It's funny on Wikipedia it says "In 2005, Lev Grossman of Time called Martin "the American Tolkien". Now don't get me wrong, I love the the Song of Ice and Fire books, I also love Tolkien's books The Silmarillion, The Hobbit and LOTR. I've read them all. But man Martin's books are kind of a bit raunchy compared to Lord of the Rings. I'd say it's more like Lord of the Rings combined with Fifty Shades of Grey lol. Fans of the tv show giving you some warning first, that rape scene with Ramsay Bolton and Sansa Stark is tame way way tame compared to what is in the books. I've read the books before and now I'm listening to them again on audio book and some parts make me squirm uncomfortable. Don't be letting your kids read these books and I sure hope some high schools aren't having some copies in their library without knowing what is really in the contents of these books.

How do you feel about the sexuality in these books? Do you feel it's necessary? Do you think Martin goes too far sometimes? Your thoughts?

Hey dude, an interesting question I've not seen discussed a whole bunch.

I think the sexuality fits with the Westeros George intends to present.  

Now, there are certain sex scenes (the tales of Gregor Clegane) which are certainly appalling, however, such horrors help enhance the feeling that the country is suffering from nightmares of war.

Scenes like Arianne's rendezvous with Arys have proven good at building character - Arianne bursts into the story showing a level of sexual power and confidence not displayed by many other characters, which in turn helps add credence to her own character, as well as the more open nature of Dornish culture.

Other naughty scenes, such as Jon and Ygritte's time in their cave, do serve as a good way to remind the reader on the fundamentals of nature - in a book full of death, a little life comes as a welcome reprise. 

[The Fattest Leech]

3 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

So -- please answer the only question that matters:

We all know that THAT he repeats himself; but, WHY does he repeat himself?

I wish I knew 

Comfort level? 

His past stories were so banging awesome that he wanted to stitch them together??? None of them are exact remakes of each other or each character, but there is a definite pattern. Usually the character that is a Jon archetype is also a Bran archetype, so when posters here think Bran and Jon will have to work together to beat whoever, those posters are not without reason in thinking so. 

The only thing I know is that we are all guessing everything until we read the words “the end”. 

We do know it started with Bran and wolves, but even here there are heavily repeated themes from past stories that apply to Bran. We will have to wait and see. 

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, Olorin81 said:

It is not intended to be a discussion of the tv show, it was just a little comment about how much more sexually explicit the books are than the tv show and that in itself is not the intended topic of this thread. Though I know how one little comment can create a thread to go off on a whole other tangent. I don't mean this to be a comparison of the sexuality between the tv show and the books. Only to my question at the end of my first post.

It was meant as a heads-up, that's all. 

7 minutes ago, Olorin81 said:

How do you feel about the sexuality in these books? Do you feel it's necessary? Do you think Martin goes too far sometimes? Your thoughts?

I told you how I feel in my first reply to you.

here:

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Martin shows sex - the good, the bad, and the ugly - because sex is a part of life. As is death, births, etc. 

 

To answer specifically:

1 - I feel 'fine'. That is to say, I agree w/ what @The Fattest Leech said up thread: the very different types of reactions we have to any given sexual act/content - be it 'looking on firsthand' or reading descriptions - are intentional. And Martin knows that different people will have different reactions, and that's the idea. And this is true to many other things, not just the sex. 

2 - Yes, to this specific story I think they absolutely are.

3 - Define "too far"? Because what you consider too far may be very different from what I consider too far.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Olorin81 said:

It's funny on Wikipedia it says "In 2005, Lev Grossman of Time called Martin "the American Tolkien". Now don't get me wrong, I love the the Song of Ice and Fire books, I also love Tolkien's books The Silmarillion, The Hobbit and LOTR. I've read them all. But man Martin's books are kind of a bit raunchy compared to Lord of the Rings. I'd say it's more like Lord of the Rings combined with Fifty Shades of Grey lol. Fans of the tv show giving you some warning first, that rape scene with Ramsay Bolton and Sansa Stark is tame way way tame compared to what is in the books. I've read the books before and now I'm listening to them again on audio book and some parts make me squirm uncomfortable. Don't be letting your kids read these books and I sure hope some high schools aren't having some copies in their library without knowing what is really in the contents of these books.

How do you feel about the sexuality in these books? Do you feel it's necessary? Do you think Martin goes too far sometimes? Your thoughts?

I don't think Martin is literally an American Tolkien; their subgenres of fantasy are woefully diffrent but I guess when talking about bare knuckle influence on how fantasy is perceived I can see the case for Martin being an American Tolkein. Fifty shades of gray is about a desperate  woman falling in love with a man,tries to control every facet of her life and who even sexually assaults her on multiple occasions-mostly while being as being portrayed as romantic and sexy. Martin has has sex scenes in his books but if they're truly appalling it is portrayed as just that. 

[Seams]

I remember reading an author interview where GRRM commented on the sexual violence in the books, and readers' reaction to it. He said that the books are full of all kinds of violence - beheadings, children killed with swords, amputation of body parts, disemboweled people dying slowly, young men being made into eunuchs and killing babies and puppies to prove their fitness for warfare, etc. Yet the objections tend to focus only on the sexual violence. He was not excusing either one - he put them in the book because they are shocking and horrible, and one of his goals is to make people think about the horrors of war and of "games" of political power. He just said people shouldn't read his books if they can't handle the violent content - he realizes they are not everyone's cup of tea.

The reviewer who compared him to Tolkien was clearly not saying that the books are targeted at exactly the same audiences or that people will enjoy them in the same ways. He may have been implying that these fantasy books will have lasting value and appeal, as well as acknowledging that they make terrific material for a tv series.

27 minutes ago, Olorin81 said:

It is not intended to be a discussion of the tv show, it was just a little comment about how much more sexually explicit the books are than the tv show and that in itself is not the intended topic of this thread. Though I know how one little comment can create a thread to go off on a whole other tangent. I don't mean this to be a comparison of the sexuality between the tv show and the books. Only to my question at the end of my first post.

How do you feel about the sexuality in these books? Do you feel it's necessary? Do you think Martin goes too far sometimes? Your thoughts?

You referred to a rape scene that occurs in the show. The reason you were called out on this is that this part of the forum has an explicit rule against discussing show material. I stopped watching the show after season 5 and have done my best to avoid spoilers or any show material. It so happens that the scene you discuss is one that I have heard about elsewhere so, for me personally, this was not a spoiler but it would not surprise me at all if you were revealing something that other people REALLY don't want to know. It irritates me when people toss comments like that into this forum because I try so hard to avoid hearing about developments in the show.

If you don't understand my point, it's probably worthwhile to go back and re-read the pinned post at the top of this (the books, ASOIAF) forum:

 

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

8 hours ago, Olorin81 said:

It is not intended to be a discussion of the tv show, it was just a little comment about how much more sexually explicit the books are than the tv show and that in itself is not the intended topic of this thread. Though I know how one little comment can create a thread to go off on a whole other tangent. I don't mean this to be a comparison of the sexuality between the tv show and the books. Only to my question at the end of my first post.

How do you feel about the sexuality in these books? Do you feel it's necessary? Do you think Martin goes too far sometimes? Your thoughts?

She's right, the books can't be called "raunchy." See the contexts in which sexuality is used. There are good situations and bad. Dany's wedding night with Drogo and Jon's time with Ygritte are sexually explicit in romantic way, but it's not awfully titillating in a raunchy way. Most of the controversial sex stuff comes from GRRM's willingness to write about rape scenes, including wartime rape. I think it's a very important part to include because that's real life. Then there's also how men like Tywin, Victarion, and whoever, interact with women. In these POV chapters there are titillating descriptions of not really sex but women. And that goes with the characters' attitudes and behavior. Most fiction authors don't delve into those aspects even though these things reflect what happens in real life. 

I don't think he goes too far at all. There are those BDSM type books that do way worse actually, and only for the purposes of titillation. Fifty Shades is like G-rated in comparison. 

I think some people are put off because this is supposed to be a fantasy book and explicit scenarios are not common to the genre. I laud GRRM for not doing what he was supposed to do. 

[HexMachina]

9 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

She's right, the books can't be called "raunchy." See the contexts in which sexuality is used. There are good situations and bad. Dany's wedding night with Drogo and Jon's time with Ygritte are sexually explicit in romantic way, but it's not awfully titillating in a raunchy way. Most of the controversial sex stuff comes from GRRM's willingness to write about rape scenes, including wartime rape. I think it's a very important part to include because that's real life. Then there's also how men like Tywin, Victarion, and whoever, interact with women. In these POV chapters there are titillating descriptions of not really sex but women. And that goes with the characters' attitudes and behavior. Most fiction authors don't delve into those aspects even though these things reflect what happens in real life. 

I don't think he goes too far at all. There are those BDSM type books that do way worse actually, and only for the purposes of titillation. Fifty Shades is like G-rated in comparison. 

I think some people are put off because this is supposed to be a fantasy book and explicit scenarios are not common to the genre. I laud GRRM for not doing what he was supposed to do. 

They really are actually

[Kandrax]

11 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

think some people are put off because this is supposed to be a fantasy book and explicit scenarios are not common to the genre. I laud GRRM for not doing what he was supposed

They probably never heard about Greek mythology.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Anything written by Martin is rubbish compared to tolkien.