NBA 2018 - Soup's on!

[SkynJay]

7 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Dude, he was complaining all night long and he got away with 20+ offensive fouls. He hooks guys every time he goes into the post. I have no idea how he gets away with that.

Dude it is the NBA, every player on both sides last night was barking for calls after every play; they let Rose cuss them out through a timeout without throwing a tech.  He didnt stop playing his game and flop around looking for calls, he was looking for calls after getting mauled repeatedly (which i have already said happened at both ends but dont pretend the wolves were not barking too).

And he wore Gibson as a coat all night, dont throw out offensive foul talk, that is just junk.  If this game was in January KAT, Butler, Jokic, Milsap, Gibson, and Teague would have fouled out by the third quarter.   

 

[Jace, Extat]

Just saw that Frank Vogel got canned. Guy can't catch a break.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 hours ago, SkynJay said:

Dude it is the NBA, every player on both sides last night was barking for calls after every play; they let Rose cuss them out through a timeout without throwing a tech.  He didnt stop playing his game and flop around looking for calls, he was looking for calls after getting mauled repeatedly (which i have already said happened at both ends but dont pretend the wolves were not barking too).

And he wore Gibson as a coat all night, dont throw out offensive foul talk, that is just junk.  If this game was in January KAT, Butler, Jokic, Milsap, Gibson, and Teague would have fouled out by the third quarter.   

 

Idk man. Agree to disagree. I thought the last game was garbage both ways, but it felt like the refs were trying to keep it close last night. There were stretches when the Wolves were up where they were calling everything on one end and nothing on the other.

Anyways, looking at the standings, there are two things that jump out to me. First, the Warriors got a monster break in getting the Spurs instead of the Thunder. I honestly thought the Thunder could have upset them. The Spurs, OTOH, have no chance. Second, the 76ers got the best draw possible. Don’t be surprised if the Eastern Conference Finals is Philly vs. the winner of Toronto-Cleveland.

[Sour Billy Tipton]

8 hours ago, SkynJay said:

That is a great hot take for the AM radio show.  A couple cliches and saying not much at all.

Jokic is not much defensively, that is true, though he at least is a rebounding machine down there.  But he is not just a great offensive talent he is a game changing talent.  He carried a team that couldn't shoot all night.  I am not going to cuss about the refs because they allowed maulings on both ends but he wasn't looking for 'easy calls,' early in OT KAT racked a forearm across his nose as he went up for a no call ( the airball that ended up being reviewed for a shot clock violation).

To say he played soft is silly, he played the same game is always does.  He isn't a muscle you out of the way guy and he can barely jump; he wont take over the game powering in and throwing down a monster jam.  He did however clear a space and feed a wide open Will Barton to tie the game back up late in OT...who missed a floater. 

The Nuggets got 8 games better this year with their free agent signing out over half the season and their leading scorer down during the final stretch.  Jokic and Harris are 23, Murry is 21.  I don't know if Jokic can take Denver to a championship; this is the NBA after all.  But I doubt the Nuggets will miss the playoffs again for as long as Jokic is on the team. I am damn pissed this morning and can name a couple of bench players that need to be swapped out but this is a very young team that I will gladly take the future of. 

And Jokic should be the third team all NBA choice for fives; he outplayed KAT last night but didn't have anyone step up to be his Jimmy Butler.  Neither center could stop the other one from scoring so it wasn't defense that defined that matchup. 

hmmmm, bias much?

[BigFatCoward]

I remember when averaging a triple double meant something. Now it's barely discussed.

[Jace, Extat]

3 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

I remember when averaging a triple double meant something. Now it's barely discussed.

Did he get it? The sixteen rebounds?

[SkynJay]

30 minutes ago, Sour Billy Tipton said:

hmmmm, bias much?

Sure I am, but make the case other wise.  I see it as Davis, Embiid, Jokic.  

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

16 minutes ago, Pony Queen Jace said:

Did he get it? The sixteen rebounds?

He got 20. 

[Jace, Extat]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

He got 20. 

Shit, nice.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

9 minutes ago, SkynJay said:

Sure I am, but make the case other wise.  I see it as Davis, Embiid, Jokic.  

KAT was statistically better in pretty much every way. Points, rebounds, blocks, shooting across the board, advanced metrics. It's difficult to find anything that Jokic did better than KAT.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/townska01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jokicni01.html

[Sour Billy Tipton]

53 minutes ago, SkynJay said:

Sure I am, but make the case other wise.  I see it as Davis, Embiid, Jokic.  

Steven Adams is more valuable than Jokic.  I don't care for one-way players.  That's why Gary Harris is the MVP on the Nuggets.  Jokic is at too great of a physical disadvantage.  He's too slow, too weak, and has too much body fat.  Not only is he easy to back down but he's got those tight hips that are always exposed. Athletic bigs can always make a quick pivot, gain a step, then finishes above him with no threat of Jokic recovering with a block from behind.

Give me Steven Adams, who is quite possibly the most physically imposing of all the centers in the NBA.  And not only is he a presence down-low, but he also plays great perimeter defense.  It's amazing how well he moves around the perimeter on offense as well.  One of the best at setting screens.

ESPN should have highlights more like this:

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

You'd only taken Adams over Jokic if your goal is to build a team of time traveling wizard-pirates. 

[Sour Billy Tipton]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

You'd only taken Adams over Jokic if your goal is to build a team of time traveling wizard-pirates. 

That too.  Jokic only averages a little more than 4.5 PPG over Adams.  Adams does more than enough on the defensive end to make up for that, and then some.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

17 minutes ago, Sour Billy Tipton said:

That too.  Jokic only averages a little more than 4.5 PPG over Adams.  Adams does more than enough on the defensive end to make up for that, and then some.

Eh, I like Adams' game, but Jokic is the better player. Denver wouldn't have sniffed the playoffs if they swapped teams (IDK if the Thunder would be any better though because Adams fills a lot of their needs in ways that Jokic never could). 

[Jaime L]

1 hour ago, BigFatCoward said:

I remember when averaging a triple double meant something. Now it's barely discussed.

He's an awesome rebounder for a 6'3" guy but he gets a few rebounds each game because Steven Adams doesn't care about stats at all and blocks out his guy to the third row letting Westbrook swoop in and get it. He gets 10 assists a game but he's not a great or eager passer...he just always has the ball in his hands. 

The triple-double thing does at least call attention to the force of nature he is on the court but everyone recognizes there's some artificial bloat in his stats. Lot of things ancillary to helping his team win. 

 

 

[Red Tiger]

The Houston Rockets "collapse" is gonna be epic.

I can't wait to finally see this Cleveland disaster end and see LeBron leave this dumpster fire.

Welp, David West retiring with a second championship is cool, I guess.

[Sour Billy Tipton]

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Eh, I like Adams' game, but Jokic is the better player. Denver wouldn't have sniffed the playoffs if they swapped teams (IDK if the Thunder would be any better though because Adams fills a lot of their needs in ways that Jokic never could). 

 

1 hour ago, Jaime L said:

He's an awesome rebounder for a 6'3" guy but he gets a few rebounds each game because Steven Adams doesn't care about stats at all and blocks out his guy to the third row letting Westbrook swoop in and get it.

 

I think Adams would be an improvement at center for most teams.  He's incredibly underrated, and Jaime L is exactly right about his box-out skills.  

This UTAH vs. OKC series has two of the best defensive centers in the game.  I'm a huge fan of the Stifle Tower, it should be fun to watch how one incredibly strong center goes up against one if not the best rim protectors in the league.  

P.S. Rudy Gobert was drafted by the Nuggets too!  Damn, the Jazz double downed when they fleeced the Nuggets with the Mitchell trade on draft day this year.

[SkynJay]

3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

KAT was statistically better in pretty much every way. Points, rebounds, blocks, shooting across the board, advanced metrics. It's difficult to find anything that Jokic did better than KAT.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/townska01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jokicni01.html

KAT is great.  I don't want to make this an anti-KAT rant because if I was to pick the third best center I would listen to arguments for KAT and Jokic and be willing to entertain them.  But with these stats you ignore two things; assists and the fact that Jokic is the teams damn point guard.  The offense goes through him every play and the team tanks when he leaves the floor; he is the Nuggets right now and that is impossible to quantify.

2 hours ago, Sour Billy Tipton said:

Steven Adams is more valuable than Jokic.  I don't care for one-way players.  That's why Gary Harris is the MVP on the Nuggets.  Jokic is at too great of a physical disadvantage.  He's too slow, too weak, and has too much body fat.  Not only is he easy to back down but he's got those tight hips that are always exposed. Athletic bigs can always make a quick pivot, gain a step, then finishes above him with no threat of Jokic recovering with a block from behind.

Give me Steven Adams, who is quite possibly the most physically imposing of all the centers in the NBA.  And not only is he a presence down-low, but he also plays great perimeter defense.  It's amazing how well he moves around the perimeter on offense as well.  One of the best at setting screens.

ESPN should have highlights more like this:

 

 

2 hours ago, Sour Billy Tipton said:

That too.  Jokic only averages a little more than 4.5 PPG over Adams.  Adams does more than enough on the defensive end to make up for that, and then some.

Lou Williams is only scoring 2 points less a game than Steph Curry this year.  You take that trade since he is a better defender?  This is a silly argument and completely ignores Jokic's game. Jokic IS the Nugget's offense, it doesn't exist without him.  Adams gets more slop points than I do at the rec; his average goes down on any other team and tanks without a superstar next to him.  He is valuable on the specific team he plays for but he isn't even close to the reason for their success. 

You don't have to like one way players (though I think this is a bit of a stretch since Jokic often has the other teams center in foul trouble early, making up for some of his own deficiencies) but there have been some highly successful teams with them over the years (Kyrie, Harding, and Curry are all arguably the worst defenders on their respective teams).  And while Jokic may not be able to guard other teams bigs thus far other teams bigs have not found a way to guard him either; I watched at least 60 Nuggets games and only saw Jokic outplayed by the other team's center a couple of times; he outplayed KAT so bad on the offensive end that they switched off on defense in the forth quarter.

The fact is people don't know how to judge a center that doesn't play like a center; we over look defensive deficiencies in guards and small forwards all the time and people just expect the five to play big. 

[Sour Billy Tipton]

27 minutes ago, SkynJay said:

Lou Williams is only scoring 2 points less a game than Steph Curry this year.  

They don't play the same position so that's a poor example.  And it's a comparison of players who are in different situations.  GS is the 2 seed, LAC finished 10th.  Besides, we all know what Steph can do offensively without Durant.  

And I don't overlook defensive deficiencies for any player.  Especially when they're "superstars".  That's why Carmello was the most overrated player in the NBA for years.  It's part of the reason why Harden has underperformed in the playoffs.  

Hell, after 2015 I was telling everyone the Sixers should trade Okafor to Denver for Gary Harris.  At the time Okafor was coming off of a rookie year where he averaged 17.5 PPG and Harris had a nice sophomore season averaging 12.3.  Obviously we're all aware of Okafor's defense at the time.  But Okafor was also horrible match for the fast tempo the Sixers had always been trying to run on offense.  Damn, Gary Harris on the Sixers.  That could be amazing.

[KingintheNorth4]

Raptors in 6

Cavs in 5

Sixers in 6

Celtics in 5

Rockets in 4

Thunder in 6

Blazers in 5

Warriors in 5