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NBA 2018 - Soup's on!


Jaime L

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9 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Yes, I still think you're crazy.  Porzingis can change the way a game is played on both sides of the court.  Tatum and Brown, well, can't.  And he has plenty of time left to maintain health as he gets stronger.  Dude's only 22.

His body will never be able to handle the NBA. His bones are just too long, his feet are way too big, and no amount of muscle mass will change that. His height and agility are freakish, for sure, but those same physical traits that make him such an exciting NBA player will force him into many a missed game. Imho. 

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6 hours ago, Triskele said:

Have there ever been two less "alpha" alphas than these two?  I hate that term, but I think everyone knows what I mean. 

"You take it!"  "No, you take it!"  

Not too typical of an NBA scenario.  

Yeah, moreso Carter, but yeah. Though weirdly both were totally fine with taking (and good at making) the big clutch shots. You’d almost think that’s the part non-alphas pushed into alpha roles would most want to avoid, but nah. 

  

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2 hours ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said:

My poor Hornets. :(

Indeed. They should be a lot better than they actually are, and worse, they’re stuck in the worst place a NBA team can be: mediocre.

2 hours ago, Relic said:

His body will never be able to handle the NBA. His bones are just too long, his feet are way too big, and no amount of muscle mass will change that. His height and agility are freakish, for sure, but those same physical traits that make him such an exciting NBA player will force him into many a missed game. Imho. 

The problem is his game and his body don’t fit one another. Towns can get away with it because he’s a little shorter, has a bigger frame and is a lot stronger. I still think KP can be great, but I’m not 100% sure how to use him at this point.  

7 hours ago, dmc515 said:

LeBron is the alpha non-alpha.  That's what separates him and Jordan.

What makes you say that? Being passive aggressive at times doesn’t mean you can’t be an alpha.

I heard an interesting take the other day comparing Jordan and LeBron. It started with comparing Manning to Rosen. Both are really intelligent, but Manning never made others feel bad about their own intelligence. They looked up to him because of it. OTOH, people seem to dislike Rosen because he’s smart. The topic then shifted to Jordan and LeBron. Jordan always told everyone how great he was, and everyone in turn nodded with approval. LeBron does the same thing and people don’t like it. The subtleties of communication can play a bigger role than we might realize.

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Hot take time!:

This offseason, the 76ers will trade Fultz, draft picks and other assets to the Spurs in exchange for Kawhi.

Then LeBron will sign with the Sixers.

They’ll also resign JJ to a cheap deal.

Their starting lineup will be LeBron/JJ/Kawhi/Simmons/ Embiid, which will destroy everyone.

 

How bout that!

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29 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Hot take time!:

This offseason, the 76ers will trade Fultz, draft picks and other assets to the Spurs in exchange for Kawhi.

Then LeBron will sign with the Sixers.

They’ll also resign JJ to a cheap deal.

Their starting lineup will be LeBron/JJ/Kawhi/Simmons/ Embiid, which will destroy everyone.

 

How bout that!

Nice dream, but im thinking Bron goes to Houston still. 

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Just now, Tywin et al. said:

 

The race for the 7th seed between Miami, Washington and Milwaukee would go nuclear except it's just about impossible to engineer because there's 3 teams virtually tied and you gotta end up in the middle. So not killing it but not tanking either. 

Looking at remaining schedule, guessing it'll be Milwaukee, Miami and Washington in that order but who the fuck knows. 

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11 minutes ago, Relic said:

Nice dream, but im thinking Bron goes to Houston still. 

Idk how the money works on that one goes, assuming LeBron holds to his word not to take anymore discounts.

That said, wouldn’t it be great if the Rockets win the title and LeBron goes there. I would love to see @briantw's head explode on that one.

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1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Idk how the money works on that one goes, assuming LeBron holds to his word not to take anymore discounts.

That said, wouldn’t it be great if the Rockets win the title and LeBron goes there. I would love to see @briantw's head explode on that one.

Eh...if he joins the team that beats him, you're not gonna see me defending him.  It'll be a weak beta move just like it was when Durant did it, and just like it was when Allen did it.

Thing is, I can't see LeBron doing that.  He's not a guy who's never won before looking for the cheapest, easiest path to a trophy like Durant last year.  He's won multiple titles and is more concerned about his legacy at this point than anything else.  Joining Houston after they win would hurt his legacy.  He's not stupid.  He knows that it would be used in any arguments against him as the GOAT.  It's why he immediately shut down those rumors that he would consider Golden State this summer.  He'd never consider going to the Warriors because, like going to Houston if they win this summer, it would have a lasting negative impact on his legacy.

Now, maybe I'm wrong and all LeBron wants is a few more title wins to add to his resume, but it certainly doesn't look like he's seeking the path of least resistance like Durant was, and so I don't see him joining either a team that beats him or a team that just won without him.

But if he does, I'll criticize him the same as I criticized Durant and Allen.

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I would like to call for a moratorium on the whole alpha-beta thing. That said, Brian, if LBJ wants to go to Houston he just has to shape the argument into a Houston vs GS thing. Even if Houston wins this year they’re dragon slayers...especially with Curry’s injury. The Warriors will be pretty heavy favourites next year unless LBJ goes that way. 

Also, the stories play for a while, but with a little time it just becomes a math discussion. Remember when the first Big Three (Celtics) had lost all legitimacy because they needed each other to win? No, me neither. 

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49 minutes ago, briantw said:

Eh...if he joins the team that beats him, you're not gonna see me defending him.  It'll be a weak beta move just like it was when Durant did it, and just like it was when Allen did it.

Thing is, I can't see LeBron doing that.  He's not a guy who's never won before looking for the cheapest, easiest path to a trophy like Durant last year.  He's won multiple titles and is more concerned about his legacy at this point than anything else.  Joining Houston after they win would hurt his legacy.  He's not stupid.  He knows that it would be used in any arguments against him as the GOAT.  It's why he immediately shut down those rumors that he would consider Golden State this summer.  He'd never consider going to the Warriors because, like going to Houston if they win this summer, it would have a lasting negative impact on his legacy.

Now, maybe I'm wrong and all LeBron wants is a few more title wins to add to his resume, but it certainly doesn't look like he's seeking the path of least resistance like Durant was, and so I don't see him joining either a team that beats him or a team that just won without him.

But if he does, I'll criticize him the same as I criticized Durant and Allen.

Ray Allen?

Anyways, I think you’re wrong here. First, James has twice chosen the easier path. Going to Miami and teaming up with two other top 10 players was the easiest path. Then when that team looked old and broken he teamed up with a younger version of Wade in Kyrie and Love when he was seen as a fringe top 5 player (he wasn’t put his stats were nuts). Considering he hasn’t given the Cavs any kind of commitment, there’s a good chance that he’ll pick the easiest path again. And frankly, there’s nothing wrong with that. If I worked for a mediocre company and a great company offered me a job with better pay and benefits, I’d be an idiot not to accept it.

Second, it would only hurt his legacy in the short term. People remember the championships, not how you got them. Some of the all-time greats took an easier path to get their rings and few people remember. Hell, even Jordan was constantly hounding his GM to get more talent. Kobe is celebrated for his five rings, but Shaq got him three and after that he was constantly trying to get more and he could win on his own so he got Gasol in his prime. And those are just some recent examples.

Finally, regarding LeBron’s legacy, he can’t risk losing in the Finals anymore. 3-5 doesn’t look bad, but 3-8 does. Some greats are remembered for their losing. Jerry West and Wilt come to mind on that front. They’re universally recognized as all-time greats, but there’s always that “but” that comes up when discussing them. LeBron doesn’t want that.

Or maybe we’re all wrong and he’s going to LA because he wants to get his entertainment company going, and big picture, that could be the smart move.  

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21 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Ray Allen?

Anyways, I think you’re wrong here. First, James has twice chosen the easier path. Going to Miami and teaming up with two other top 10 players was the easiest path.

Miami wasn't the easier path.  Joining Boston would have been the easiest path, and that's akin to what Durant did when he joined Golden State.  LeBron teamed up with two other stars because Cleveland just didn't have enough firepower to beat Boston's super team.  As a Cleveland fan, not a LeBron fan, I recognize that fact.  I still think that the main reason that LeBron rightfully got killed for that move (rightfully) was because of The Decision, not because he teamed up with Wade and Bosh.  He still would have been criticized, but it wouldn't have been nearly as bad without that special. 

I've said this before, but if he had released a statement thanking Cleveland for everything that they'd done for him, but mentioned that the team just didn't have enough assets to put a championship-caliber team around him, and that he hoped to come back someday once they did, I think Cavs fans mostly would have been, if not okay with it, at least not vehement toward him.  The Decision flopped so badly because it was perceived as kicking a battered fan base while it was down, and it showed a remarkable lack of understanding of the city/region that LeBron is from.

And yes, Ray Allen.  Because he's the only other star player I can think of who left a contending team to join the team that knocked him from the playoffs in free agency.  It doesn't happen very often.

Maybe I'm wrong and LeBron joins Houston.  However, I don't see how it happens without him taking a serious pay cut (something he's been adamantly against for years now), and I certainly don't see it happening if Houston wins a title without him this year.  That's especially true if it's the Cavs and LeBron that they beat to win it.

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19 minutes ago, briantw said:

 

I've said this before, but if he had released a statement thanking Cleveland for everything that they'd done for him, but mentioned that the team just didn't have enough assets to put a championship-caliber team around him, and that he hoped to come back someday once they did, I think Cavs fans mostly would have been, if not okay with it, at least not vehement toward him.  

Can I just say ‘no way in hell’? I literally predicted the reaction to the Decision before I knew there was such a thing. I agree that it was crappily handled, but there is literally no way he isn’t vilified for leaving, however handled. The only way a star player leaves without lynch mobs is if it is made clear it was the team’s decision and he was desperate to stay in the Best City In The World. 

Here in Toronto people still insist Carter has admitted to faking injury to force a trade even though that, like, never remotely happened. (In an interview he mentioned that years previously, when he first came in he took being healthy etc. for granted and didn’t work as hard as he had to ‘now’, ie the time of the trade, which somehow morphed into admitting to tanking now, and even the interviewer (Thompson) taking the time to actually go on record about how it was being wildly misinterpreted). Many insist he refused to dunk, citing I suppose the joke he made about not dunking anymore and overlooking the many dunks that followed, starting in the 1st quarter of the next game. Stuff like that just happens, and reality plays little role in the matter. 

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11 minutes ago, briantw said:

And yes, Ray Allen.  Because he's the only other star player I can think of who left a contending team to join the team that knocked him from the playoffs in free agency.  It doesn't happen very often.

The 2012-13 Celtics were not contenders whether Allen resigned or not.  They got very lucky to make the ECF in 2012 because Rose and Noah got hurt which destroyed the #1 seeded Bulls.  Then they couldn't beat the Heat team in the ECF even with Bosh barely playing from injury. It was obvious by 2012 the championship window was closed, and there was no way another year of Allen, Garnett and Pierce aging was going to help anything. 

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5 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Can I just say ‘no way in hell’? I literally predicted the reaction to the Decision before I knew there was such a thing. I agree that it was crappily handled, but there is literally no way he isn’t vilified for leaving, however handled. The only way a star player leaves without lynch mobs is if it is made clear it was the team’s decision and he was desperate to stay in the Best City In The World. 

Again, not saying people would have been okay with it, but I don't think the reaction would have been nearly as bad without The Decision.  That special was basically pouring gasoline on a fire.

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10 minutes ago, briantw said:

Again, not saying people would have been okay with it, but I don't think the reaction would have been nearly as bad without The Decision.  That special was basically pouring gasoline on a fire.

I think a different version is pretty much the same volume, just shaped differently. I know Toronto is worse for this with the whole US tv thing, but Raptors fans are extremely pissed at both Bosh and McGrady for not sufficiently warning the team the year before they hit free agency that they were going to leave, regardless of whether or not they had in fact decided yet, What I mean is, without the Decision, Something would have happened. Even the scenario you painted I can envision as The Apology where it’s cited as obviously fake and It’s Not Not You It’s Me or where someone reports him smiling that day or something. I’ll grant you that maybe a better handled one makes some difference, but I think it’s pretty insignificant. The rejection is the thing that stings.

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48 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

I think a different version is pretty much the same volume, just shaped differently. I know Toronto is worse for this with the whole US tv thing, but Raptors fans are extremely pissed at both Bosh and McGrady for not sufficiently warning the team the year before they hit free agency that they were going to leave, regardless of whether or not they had in fact decided yet, What I mean is, without the Decision, Something would have happened. Even the scenario you painted I can envision as The Apology where it’s cited as obviously fake and It’s Not Not You It’s Me or where someone reports him smiling that day or something. I’ll grant you that maybe a better handled one makes some difference, but I think it’s pretty insignificant. The rejection is the thing that stings.

Well, I think The Decision in particular stung Cleveland more than most, as it's a city with a history of horrible sports events with similar names like The Drive and The Fumble.  It was that complete misunderstanding of the region LeBron grew up in that hurt as much as anything else.  I remember my buddies and I talking about how there's no way LeBron would do a national TV special like that if he was going anywhere else, because it was unfathomable that he'd be that out of touch about the city he grew up in.

Then the special started and I saw how nervous he looked and was like, "Well, fuck."

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18 minutes ago, briantw said:

Well, I think The Decision in particular stung Cleveland more than most, as it's a city with a history of horrible sports events with similar names like The Catch and The Fumble.  It was that complete misunderstanding of the region LeBron grew up in that hurt as much as anything else.  I remember my buddies and I talking about how there's no way LeBron would do a national TV special like that if he was going anywhere else, because it was unfathomable that he'd be that out of touch about the city he grew up in.

Then the special started and I saw how nervous he looked and was like, "Well, fuck."

Honestly, I think a lot of places think of themselves in a similar fashion. For example, not trying to be a dick, but I sincerely only know of Clark’s ‘The Catch’. Unless, do you mean like baseball, Willie Mays? Was that against Celeveland? I really don’t know. Also, total aside, but if that’s the one it’s misnamed; the throw was the special part. 

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51 minutes ago, briantw said:

Miami wasn't the easier path.  Joining Boston would have been the easiest path, and that's akin to what Durant did when he joined Golden State.  

His wasn't overtly the easiest path like Durant but it was, in 2010, and then again in 2014, the most sustainably easy path. If he joined the Celtics (or Lakers) in 2010...he'd be joining an aging team on its last legs. He'd get a quick first title but he wouldn't get.....not 3, not 4, not 5. Not to mention he couldn't join either one if he still wanted to earn a max salary as they were both capped out from their 2008-2010 contention.

Instead he joined with Dwyane Wade who was probably the 2nd best player in basketball in 2010 and Chris Bosh a top 10 guy. He probably had no idea how quickly Wade would decline from that point on. But the goal was to build the best team he could for the next 5 years if not longer. 

When it was clear that wasn't sustainable past 2014 he jumped to the next best option for the next 5 years, a team that had improbably won the lottery 3 of the prior 4 years....and restored his damaged image all in one fell swoop because it was Cleveland. He could rebuild in an instant with a younger, hungrier big 3 and be seen as a hero for doing so. 

Maybe no one decision was quite as outrageous and self-serving as Durant...but think he's taken the easiest road that's presented itself each time. I don't blame him for the choices he made, he more than did his time playing on a talentless Cleveland team from 2003-2010, but honestly I don't see him as somehow nobler in his decisions than Durant. 

To me, the one character move he could make at this point is staying with Cleveland through the adversity. But if he jumps to Houston or Philly it only proves my point. 

 

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6 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Honestly, I think a lot of places think of themselves in a similar fashion. For example, not trying to be a dick, but I sincerely only know of Clark’s ‘The Catch’. Unless, do you mean like baseball, Willie Mays? Was that against Celeveland? I really don’t know. Also, total aside, but if that’s the one it’s misnamed; the throw was the special part. 

I wondered that too, The Catch is definitely Dwight Clark against the Cowboys.  Maybe brianw meant to say The Drive?  Neither The Drive nor The Fumble are as famous nationally as The Catch, but both are pretty famous heartbreaking moments for Browns fans. 

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