Quick question for R+L=J believers.

[Wolf of The Wall]

21 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Quick question for you, mnt rushes,

 Is this question of yours based on the video theory by that group order of the greenpalms (or whatever they are called?). If so, I would be extremely leary of believing everything they claim without doing your own, full, research first. Maybe that is why you posted this question? , but I just wanted to ask real quickly to try and help me figure it out.

 

14 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Green palms? That what my girls eat! Don't you mean Green hand? Or is it green something else? Gods only know, but the few vids by this crew I watched gave me good hearty chuckles and plenty of eye rolls, nothing more.

 

8 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Maybe it is green hand?

It's Order of the Green Hand. And they are the hipsters of ASoIaF.

[The Fattest Leech]

3 minutes ago, Wolf of The Wall said:

 

 

It's Order of the Green Hand. And they are the hipsters of ASoIaF.

[kissdbyfire]

13 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

They can make pretzels faster than anyone I have ever seen.

Perfect!

 

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Wolf of The Wall said:

 

 

It's Order of the Green Hand. And they are the hipsters of ASoIaF.

 

2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I remember perfectly now, it's the 'like' lady! 

"Like, I think yadda yadda, like, you know? Like, I was hoping... like this would be awesome", and on and on it goes.

And this isn't the real problem. This is a problem only for arseholes like me. The actual, real problem is that everything they propose (that's I've seen) requires enormous leaps of faith and excruciating mental gymnastics (is saying 'excruciating gymnastics' being redundant? ). Oh, and there's lots of things they speak of as it fact but are actually downright wrong. 

So, yeah, not a huge fan.

 

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Nowy Tends said:

What? According to the canon, the throne was "forged out of the swords that Aegon the Conqueror collected from the enemies he defeated in battle". The fact that these swords were melted with dragon fire doesn't make them "valyrian".

Yes

and

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Nope, the IT is not made of VS but of the swords of the lords Aegon the Conqueror defeated. 

There may be a couple of VS swords, but the vast majority is regular steel. 

Yes. But.

How do you think - what exactly is a Valyrian steel? What's the difference between regular steel and Valyrian steel? From what material is it made?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel

"Steel is an alloy of iron and carbon and other elements. Iron is the base metal of steel."

So average steel is made from iron. In world of Planetos, there's the same metals/metal ores as on Earth - iron, gold, silver, copper, lead, tin.

Their average steel, same as steel in real world, is made from iron as its basic component. And the only difference between average steel and Valyrian steel, is that Valyrian steel is forged in dragonflame, or sacred flames (like sword of Azor Ahai, that he forged in R'hllor's temple) instead of average fire. What GRRM said about making of Valyrian steel, doesn't exclude my theory.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1153/

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Process_of_Making_Valyrian_Steel

Dragons are creations of R'hllor, thus dragonfire is basically the same element, as sacred flames in R'hllor's temple. It requires spells/magic to bind a dragon, thru blood. And it requires magic to make average fire burning in the furnace, to turn into sacred fire. Thus both of those things (dragonfire and R'hllor's flames) are result of magic/spells.

[kissdbyfire]

10 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Yes

and

Yes. But.

How do you think - what exactly is a Valyrian steel? What's the difference between regular steel and Valyrian steel? From what material is it made?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel

"Steel is an alloy of iron and carbon and other elements. Iron is the base metal of steel."

So average steel is made from iron. In world of Planetos, there's the same metals/metal ores as on Earth - iron, gold, silver, copper, lead, tin.

Their average steel, same as steel in real world, is made from iron as its basic component. And the only difference between average steel and Valyrian steel, is that Valyrian steel is forged in dragonflame, or sacred flames (like sword of Azor Ahai, that he forged in R'hllor's temple) instead of average fire. What GRRM said about making of Valyrian steel, doesn't exclude my theory.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1153/

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Process_of_Making_Valyrian_Steel

Dragons are creations of R'hllor, thus dragonfire is basically the same element, as sacred flames in R'hllor's temple. It requires spells/magic to bind a dragon, thru blood. And it requires magic to make average fire burning in the furnace, to turn into sacred fire. Thus both of those things (dragonfire and R'hllor's flames) are result of magic/spells.

Sorry, but nothing here makes sense. 

For instance, the swords of the lords defeated by Aegon I that make up the IT weren't necessarily subjected to dragon fire. So, there's that. 

But that's not all. Did you read the stuff in the links you posted? Specifically the SSM where Martin talks about VS? Spells are a part of it. So, even if all of the defeated lords from Aegon's Conquest had had their swords come in contact w/ dragon fire, these swords would still not be VS. 

The IT is not made of VS. 

[Nowy Tends]

22 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

The IT is not made of VS. 

Absolutely, and if it were made of VS I can't see why the author would make a mystery out of it…

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

Absolutely, and if it were made of VS I can't see why the author would make a mystery out of it…

Exactly. On the contrary, in fact. B/c we do get some info on it - IT! Lol - and all of it points towards regular steel. 

[zandru]

Re: "regular steel"

There's steels and steels, back in medieval times as well as today. Today, we have innumerable alloys where traces of other elements (chromium, vanadium, etc etc) are added to optimize certain characteristics. Even back in the day (in Westeros & Essos) there would be more or less pure iron deposits in which extra elements could greatly improve the final steel product. For example, if "Dawn" was indeed forged from a meteorite, it would be an iron-nickle alloy. The forging technique is crucial as well. Valyrian swords have wavy textures, from the metal being folded, hammered out, folded, hammered out, etc over and over again. (Think croissant.) This was done on our world as "Damascus steel." The tachi and katana of the samurai were made by forging together different types (carbon content) of steel, the sharp edge being different from the rest. Even less sophisticated cultures could produce swords of greatly superior steel, such as the 'Ulfberht' blades used by the Vikings. (as seen on PBS!)

All this boring, apparently pointless pedantry is to argue that it's likely the dragonfire was just a quick cheap way of providing great heat, much greater than the ordinary forges of the time were capable of, and not giving some kind of magical properties. It was the spells used in the forging that provided the magic.

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

For instance, the swords of the lords defeated by Aegon I that make up the IT weren't necessarily subjected to dragon fire.

They were. Aegon's Balerion made Iron Throne together with human workers. They worked together 59 days.

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Did you read the stuff in the links you posted?

Yes, I did. And not only info from those links, but everything GRRM ever said about Valyrian steel. Dragons themselves are magic, so there are spells in their blood, and in their fire.

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

The IT is not made of VS. 

We'll see about that. Personally I will wait until Jon will arrive to King's Landing, and see Iron Throne. He has a Valyrian steel blade, so he will recognise what Iron Throne is. And other characters don't see it, for what it is, because they are "blind". They see only Throne/power. So Jon will be the only one who will see Iron Throne for what it is - one of the greatest treasures of 7K. But not because it's a chair of 7K's King, rather because it can be used as a weapon against Undear Army. If this amount of Valyrian steel will be reforged into swords, then they will be able to arm an entire army, with weapons, that are able to kill white walkers.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

8 hours ago, Megorova said:

That's exactly how I got this idea, about Ashara and Howland. Ned supposedly killed Arthur, and because of him Ashara supposedly commited suicide, but they called their little Lord with Ned's name? Ridiculous! Add to this Meera's story - Howland was watching Ashara like a hawk, even remembered everyone with whom she danced. And also a rumor that Ashara was somehow dishonored during Tournament.

<snipped for space

Thank you! Always nice to meet another person who notices such things and has reached this conclusion.

If we few are correct (have your read the H+A = M&J thread?), then Ashara's family would be mightily displeased that she would want to throw herself away on some crannogman. They'd probably rather she were dead...

8 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I also doubt she is hiding anywhere under some other identity. So there's that.

Well then you'd like my twist on the theory...that Ashara did indeed marry Howland and is Meera's mother, but she got sick and died. 

I've got reasoning for this. Might turn it into it's own shiny little Advanced Crackpottery thread.

5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Quick question for you, mnt rushes,

 Is this question of yours based on the video theory by that group order of the greenpalms (or whatever they are called?). If so, I would be extremely leary of believing everything they claim without doing your own, full, research first. Maybe that is why you posted this question? , but I just wanted to ask real quickly to try and help me figure it out.

Oh dear lord, them!  The Order of the Green Hand. I wouldn't accuse our OP of that. Anyone who has seen even their first video on why Catelyn is the worst villain in all of Westeros should know better than to trust their analysis.

5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

They can make pretzels faster than anyone I have ever seen.

LOL! Well stated, TFL!

[Lady Blizzardborn]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

We'll see about that. Personally I will wait until Jon will arrive to King's Landing, and see Iron Throne. He has a Valyrian steel blade, so he will recognise what Iron Throne is. And other characters don't see it, for what it is, because they are "blind". They see only Throne/power. So Jon will be the only one who will see Iron Throne for what it is - one of the greatest treasures of 7K. But not because it's a chair of 7K's King, rather because it can be used as a weapon against Undear Army. If this amount of Valyrian steel will be reforged into swords, then they will be able to arm an entire army, with weapons, that are able to kill white walkers.

There is nothing in the books that states that VS can kill the Others. Sam and Jon think that maybe dragonsteel refers to VS, but there is as much chance they are wrong as that they are right. The link in my signature takes you to my theory on it.

However, VS or no VS, I think the IT will be destroyed (and just like it took a dragon to make it, it will take a dragon to break it), and replaced with a new throne. My money is on weirwood and ebony, to symbolize the restoration of balance in the natural world. 

[Ygrain]

8 hours ago, SirArthur said:

A lot of R+L is thought through from the end. Ignoring all the little details along the way. 

Dear Sir, you are woefully mistaken. Every single person on the forums who arrived at the conclusion on their own, started from the breadcrumbs of Ned's thoughts. None of us thought, 'hey, it would be cool if Jon was a Targ, let's look for some support'. You may not believe my word but then you are fooling yourself.

8 hours ago, Wolf of The Wall said:

It's Order of the Green Hand. And they are the hipsters of ASoIaF.

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

We'll see about that. Personally I will wait until Jon will arrive to King's Landing, and see Iron Throne. He has a Valyrian steel blade, so he will recognise what Iron Throne is. And other characters don't see it, for what it is, because they are "blind". They see only Throne/power. So Jon will be the only one who will see Iron Throne for what it is - one of the greatest treasures of 7K. But not because it's a chair of 7K's King, rather because it can be used as a weapon against Undear Army. If this amount of Valyrian steel will be reforged into swords, then they will be able to arm an entire army, with weapons, that are able to kill white walkers.

Do you really think that Ned, who was sitting on the IT and also possessed a Valyrian blade, wouldn't recognize it for what it was?

Valyrian steel has a unique look, every single character who has seen such a blade, instantly recognizes the catspaw's dagger for what it is. The argument that people are "blinded" by the IT's representation of power would be very poor writing on GRRM's part - not to mention that heating steel to a high temperature WON'T produce the Damascus pattern that is characteristic of VS, that can only be produced by repeated folding and forging, over and over.

ETA: Furthermore, the IT is hardly the only chunk of iron ever exposed to dragon fire. If such an exposure was all it took, Westeros would have been flooded with VS after Aegon's conquest...

 

2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Oh dear lord, them!  The Order of the Green Hand. I wouldn't accuse our OP of that. Anyone who has seen even their first video on why Catelyn is the worst villain in all of Westeros should know better than to trust their analysis.

I'm so glad I never watched that one!

[The South Forgets]

On 3/9/2018 at 5:59 AM, must needs the rushes said:

I imagine that this has been addressed elsewhere, but a site search and skims of relevant threads didn't reveal where, and I wonder what's your interpretation of this passage:

 

"Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

 

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice."

 

This strikes me as stronger confirmation of N+A=J than all indications of R+L=J combined, so I'm eager to learn why you think that Ned meant something else by it.

Haven't read the 5 pages of this discussion, but I think that Ned referring to Jon as his blood instead of his son is a point to be noted. Of course, it could be a red herring. IMO, his coldness was because he was afraid that Jon, the last memory of Lyanna, would be killed if Robert knew who Jon's parents really were

[SirArthur]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Dear Sir, you are woefully mistaken. Every single person on the forums who arrived at the conclusion on their own, started from the breadcrumbs of Ned's thoughts. None of us thought, 'hey, it would be cool if Jon was a Targ, let's look for some support'.

And that is the core of the problem. If I start with Dany I "he died for the woman he loved" together with the knowledge that Elia was held captive by Aerys or with Cersei's crush on Rhaegar and her hate for Jon, I can certainly come to other conclusions. At least when it comes to the idea who the father is.

 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

 You may not believe my word but then you are fooling yourself.

Ahh, now we are back with good old Rhaegar+Lyanna faith. "Every single person" is many things, but certainly not the truth.

[kissdbyfire]

7 hours ago, Megorova said:

They were. Aegon's Balerion made Iron Throne together with human workers. They worked together 59 days.

True. I was thinking about the battles, not the actual making of the IT.

7 hours ago, Megorova said:

Yes, I did. And not only info from those links, but everything GRRM ever said about Valyrian steel. Dragons themselves are magic, so there are spells in their blood, and in their fire.

Every bit of info on VS we have mentions spells. That's not the same as whatever inherent magic dragons have.

7 hours ago, Megorova said:

We'll see about that. Personally I will wait until Jon will arrive to King's Landing, and see Iron Throne. He has a Valyrian steel blade, so he will recognise what Iron Throne is. And other characters don't see it, for what it is, because they are "blind". They see only Throne/power. So Jon will be the only one who will see Iron Throne for what it is - one of the greatest treasures of 7K. But not because it's a chair of 7K's King, rather because it can be used as a weapon against Undear Army. If this amount of Valyrian steel will be reforged into swords, then they will be able to arm an entire army, with weapons, that are able to kill white walkers.

I very much disagree. First, it makes no sense that the IT is VS and no one notices it.

Second, yes, the legends say a thousand swords went into making the ugly chair. The truth is probably different, as in, fewer blades. But even if it is 1,000, that's not nearly enough to be the decisive factor. 

[Light a wight tonight]

On 3/9/2018 at 4:18 PM, kissdbyfire said:

 

 But gimme a theory w/ a child by Brandon and Ashara, and I'm on-board! 

So, Brandon Benjen wasn't talking theoretically when he told Jon to reserve judgement about fathering bastards until he had one of his own?

[Ygrain]

40 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

And that is the core of the problem. If I start with Dany I "he died for the woman he loved" together with the knowledge that Elia was held captive by Aerys or with Cersei's crush on Rhaegar and her hate for Jon, I can certainly come to other conclusions. At least when it comes to the idea who the father is.

That could be true if you indeed start with "died for the woman he loved" - but as you could find out if you were willing to spend hours looking into the ancient archived threads, this is not the case. I've been on the forums since 2012, and seen various iterations of "how did you figure out RLJ", not to mention the countless discussions in the pinned thread, and I don't recall anyone mentioning this as an eye-opening moment or a start of their search. The main points were basically the same for everyone who claimed to have figured out on their own - the recurring theme of the blue roses which turn out to be the QoLaB crown, the haunting memory of "promise me", the connection between Lyanna's bed of blood and bloody bed aka birthing bed, Ned's silence about the whole matter , Ned living lies for fourteen years, secrets too dangerous to share.... people sometimes didn't pick on everything or accentuated different parts, but that's the way they went about it - from pieces of information scattered throughout the book, they arrrived at a conclusion what those pieces mean.

40 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Ahh, now we are back with good old Rhaegar+Lyanna faith. "Every single person" is many things, but certainly not the truth.

You have misread what I said. "Every single person on the forums who arrived at the conclusion on their own", or at least "every single person who claimed to have arrived at RLJ on their own and shared their experience on the forums". Either take my word on what I have seen around here, or do your research, or start your own "how did you" thread to see for yourself, but what you claim is simply not true.

[Ygrain]

28 minutes ago, Light a wight tonight said:

So, Brandon wasn't talking theoretically when he told Jon to reserve judgement about fathering bastards until he had one of his own?

You mean Benjen, not Brandon, I suppose?

[kissdbyfire]

33 minutes ago, Light a wight tonight said:

So, Brandon wasn't talking theoretically when he told Jon to reserve judgement about fathering bastards until he had one of his own?

Do you mean Benjen?