Quick question for R+L=J believers.

[kissdbyfire]

27 minutes ago, Megorova said:

My theory is that Wylla came with Ashara to the Tower of Joy. And after Lyanna's death, she went with little Jon to Winterfell. She was that wet nurse, that was there, when Cat arrived to her husband's castle. And a few years later, when Ashara/Jyana gave birth to Meera, Jojen, and then Edric, they summoned Wylla from Winterfell. She took Edric, and brought him to Starfall.

That would require Wylla to stay at Winterfell for years, and there is no indication whatsoever that Jon's original wetnurse, whoever she was, remained there that long.

30 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Edric claims that he and Jon are milk brothers. Probably his wet nurse Wylla told him so. But he misunderstood her, and thought that what she said means, that Jon is her son. While actually Jon was just another baby, same as Edric, whom she was breasfeeding, and he wasn't her own child.

Maybe he didn't misunderstand her, maybe she did say she is Jon's mother. After all, the possibility exists that Wylla is not just in on the secret, but is an active participant. 

I have no comments on BR & Shiera being ser Barry's parents.

 

[SirArthur]

Has someone actually unmasked the reason why of all people Ned send the drinking buddy of Robert and the engaged man of Ashara's sister after the alleged murderer of baby Aegon ? Together with the milk brother of Jon. 

Give me some tinfoil and something to smoke. 

[Khal Rhaego Targaryen]

On 2018-3-9 at 5:32 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

It I agree it’s unlikely Ashara is either’s mom, mostly because why would anyone hide that, and why would it matter... but it’s better to explain that than resort to Star Wars metaphors in my humble opinion.

If Ashara Dayne is involved in the secret R + L and people find out that she is Jon's mother, people will start asking questions of why Ashara killed herself and that would lead to a road to find out about Rhaegar and Lyanna's child.

[Megorova]

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

That would require Wylla to stay at Winterfell for years, and there is no indication whatsoever that Jon's original wetnurse, whoever she was, remained there that long.

Jon was born in late 283. Meera in late 283 (some time after Harvest feast, in autumn). Jojen in 286. Edric in 287.

So maybe when Ashara/Jyana became pregnant second time, in 285/286, they summoned Wylla from Winterfell to Greywater Watch. At that time Jon was 1-1,5-2 years old. Or maybe they summoned her in 286-287, after Edric was born, or during Ashara's third pregnancy. So for 4 years before that, 283-287, Wylla was first Jon's wet nurse, and later his nanny.

ASOS, Jon XII: "Every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk."

So before that he was under Wylla's care, and when she left, responsibility for his upbringing and education was given to maester Luwin, and Rodrik Cassel.

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Jon was born in late 283. Meera in late 283 (some time after Harvest feast, in autumn). Jojen in 286. Edric in 287.

So maybe when Ashara/Jyana became pregnant second time, in 285/286, they summoned Wylla from Winterfell to Greywater Watch. At that time Jon was 1-1,5-2 years old. Or maybe they summoned her in 286-287, after Edric was born, or during Ashara's third pregnancy. So for 4 years before that, 283-287, Wylla was first Jon's wet nurse, and later his nanny.

ASOS, Jon XII: "Every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk."

So before that he was under Wylla's care, and when she left, responsibility for his upbringing and education was given to maester Luwin, and Rodrik Cassel.

I understood what you meant, I was just saying there's absolutely nothing in the text to suggest or support any of it. 

[Nowy Tends]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

So maybe when Ashara/Jyana became pregnant second time, in 285/286, they summoned Wylla from Winterfell to Greywater Watch.

Where did you get the idea that servants in a castle can be "summoned" by people from an other castle several hundreds miles away?

We know that Greywater Watch doesn't use "raven messaging service", how do they "summon" someone 600 or 700 miles away?  And Wylla probably doesn't ride on horseback… etc.

[Ygrain]

5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I understood what you meant, I was just saying there's absolutely nothing in the text to suggest or support any of it. 

Exactly.

[Bloodraven's Spider]

20 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

Please define "legit. I will see it as legit when/if GRRM writes it in the next books… Prior to that words are wind, me nem nesa.

Check my thread about it. R+L=J is straight fairy tale garbage. 

[Rufus Snow]

11 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I understood what you meant, I was just saying there's absolutely nothing in the text to suggest or support any of it. 

This is the George... so we also need to consider whether there's anything in the text that actually disproves it, as well

 

We know George has said Howland is going to re-appear somewhere down the line, and there's been all sorts of speculation about that. I think that his notably unseen wife, Jyana, also has a reason for being notably unseen - now it may be that's because she's a frogeater, and frogeaters tend not to travel much (Howland himself being the big exception here - the Bilbo Baggins of the crannogs...) but then again, if someone had to disappear what better place to go than Greywater Watch?

One thing I took from Meera and Jojen's telling of the tales from Harrenhal, and their utter amazement that Bran hadn't heard them before, suggests that they had heard them quite often. As if to indicate that the events of Harrenhal were extremely significant to Howland himself. He was clearly smitten with Ashara there, there's the whole Tower of Joy expedition, and the unlikely fondness between the Daynes and the Ned (Howland's best friend ever...), and the disappearance of Ashara (as someone pointed out up-thread, a missing body in fiction is a plant). It's all suggestive of something important that we don't know yet. There's nothing yet to rule out for certain that Ashara could have disappeared into the the Neck with Howland. And we've seen that Jon and Meera are of an age. WHERE WAS MEERA'S MOTHER when she was conceived, given that Howland was down south with Ned?

I don't accept that Ashara is Lemore, because we have Tyrion noticing just about every feature of Lemore's body, yet he didn't notice particulalrly striking eyes (even though he did notice Young Griff's eyes), which is what most people noticed first about Ashara.

Again I think George has left a plot hole big enough to drive a huge plot device through. I don't think it's impossible that Ashara became Jyana.

Finally, I keep wondering why, when the Daynes are such an important family in the events of the story, their family tree is so sketchy.

[LynnS]

18 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

That would require Wylla to stay at Winterfell for years, and there is no indication whatsoever that Jon's original wetnurse, whoever she was, remained there that long.

Wylla seems to be a common name.  A number of characters are so named.  I've wondered if Lyanna took the name Wylla as a means for keeping her identity secret.  That's not to say that she died at Winterfell because it seems more likely to me that she was at Starfall.

[Megorova]

10 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

Where did you get the idea that servants in a castle can be "summoned" by people from an other castle several hundreds miles away?

We know that Greywater Watch doesn't use "raven messaging service", how do they "summon" someone 600 or 700 miles away?  And Wylla probably doesn't ride on horseback… etc.

They could have sent a cart/carriage, or a boat. 65 miles east from Greywater Watch to the sea, from there to White Harbor, and up thru White Knife, then there's only 50 miles from the river to Cerwyn castle (2-3 days walk on foot, lesser on a horseback). And transportation for a way back was arranged by Ned. A ship to Starfall, to bring there Wylla and baby Edric.

12 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I understood what you meant, I was just saying there's absolutely nothing in the text to suggest or support any of it. 

That text:

The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him “son” for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband’s soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur’s sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. “Never ask me about Jon,” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady.” She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne’s name was never heard in Winterfell again.

Whoever Jon’s mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away.

~

If Jon had been born of Ashara Dayne of Starfall, as some whispered, the lady was long dead; if not, Catelyn had no clue who or where his mother might be.

~

“You were never the boy you were,” Robert grumbled. “More’s the pity. And yet there was that one time…what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was…Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard’s mother?”

“Her name was Wylla,” Ned replied with cool courtesy, “and I would sooner not speak of her.”

~

“My lady?” Ned said at last. “You have a baseborn brother… Jon Snow?”

“He’s with the Night’s Watch on the Wall.” Maybe I should go to the Wall instead of Riverrun. Jon wouldn’t care who I killed or whether I brushed my hair… “Jon looks like me, even though he’s bastard-born. He used to muss my hair and call me ‘little sister.’” Arya missed Jon most of all. Just saying his name made her sad. “How do you know about Jon?”

“He is my milk brother.”

“Brother?” Arya did not understand. “But you’re from Dorne. How could you and Jon be blood?”

“Milk brothers. Not blood. My lady mother had no milk when I was little, so Wylla had to nurse me.”

Arya was lost. “Who’s Wylla?”

“Jon Snow’s mother. He never told you? She’s served us for years and years. Since before I was born.”

“Jon never knew his mother. Not even her name.” Arya gave Ned a wary look. “You know her? Truly?” Is he making mock of me? “If you lie I’ll punch your face.”

“Wylla was my wetnurse,” he repeated solemnly. “I swear it on the honor of my House.”

“You have a House?” That was stupid; he was a squire, of course he had a House. “Who are you?”

“My lady?” Ned looked embarrassed. “I’m Edric Dayne, the… the Lord of Starfall.”

Behind them, Gendry groaned. “Lords and ladies,” he proclaimed in a disgusted tone. Arya plucked a withered crabapple off a passing branch and whipped it at him, bouncing it off his thick bull head. “Ow,” he said. “That hurt.” He felt the skin above his eye. “What kind of lady throws crabapples at people?”

“The bad kind,” said Arya, suddenly contrite. She turned back to Ned. “I’m sorry I didn’t know who you were. My lord.”

“The fault is mine, my lady.” He was very polite.

Jon has a mother. Wylla, her name is Wylla. She would need to remember so she could tell him, the next time she saw him. She wondered if he would still call her “little sister.” I’m not so little anymore. He’d have to call me something else. Maybe once she got to Riverrun she could write Jon a letter and tell him what Ned Dayne had said. “There was an Arthur Dayne,” she remembered. “The one they called the Sword of the Morning.”

“My father was Ser Arthur’s elder brother. Lady Ashara was my aunt. I never knew her, though. She threw herself into the sea from atop the Palestone Sword before I was born.”

“Why would she do that?” said Arya, startled.

Ned looked wary. Maybe he was afraid that she was going to throw something at him. “Your lord father never spoke of her?” he said. “The Lady Ashara Dayne, of Starfall?”

“No. Did he know her?”

“Before Robert was king. She met your father and his brothers at Harrenhal, during the year of the false spring.”

“Oh.” Arya did not know what else to say. “Why did she jump in the sea, though?”

“Her heart was broken.”

Sansa would have sighed and shed a tear for true love, but Arya just thought it was stupid. She couldn’t say that to Ned, though, not about his own aunt. “Did someone break it?”

He hesitated. “Perhaps it’s not my place…”

“Tell me.”

He looked at her uncomfortably. “My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal—”

“That’s not so. He loved my lady mother.”

“I’m sure he did, my lady, but—”

“She was the only one he loved.”

“He must have found that bastard under a cabbage leaf, then,” Gendry said behind them.

~

How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole?

~

The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf… but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

~

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory’s father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon’s squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man’s memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dome at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

“When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

“I came down on Storm’s End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, “and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.” As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. “Eddard!” she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

~

“I was with her when she died,” Ned reminded the king. “She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father.” He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it.

~

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.

~

 

If there was only two people still alive - Ned and Howland, then who were those THEY, that had found Ned near Lyanna's body? Which means that besides Lyanna, there were other people at the Tower of Joy. It's unbelivable that Ned took newborn Jon, and with him went to Starfall, thru mountains and desert. So Wylla was already there, otherwise the baby wouldn't have survived without milk. Pregnancy lasts 9 months, so they had time to prepare for childbirth. They brought wetnurse from Starfall, and maester to help Lyanna to deliver the baby. The knights swore an oath to stay with Lyanna, and protect her and Rhaegar's unborn baby. So everything was aranged beforehand, prior Rhaegar has went to the war. Someone arranged all of that, and most likely it was Ashara. Because she was Elia's lady-in-waiting, she was Arthur's sister, and Arthur was Rhaegar's closest friend. So if Rhaegar could have trusted to someone, to keep a secret about Lyanna, and help her with everything when Rhaegar will be gone (to war), then the most likely option is Ashara Dayne.

If based on quotes from the books, that I posted above, you didn't made the same conclusions, as I did, that Ashara Dayne isn't dead, and that she isn't Jon's mother, and that Wylla to Jon was just his wetnurse, and that Wylla is a connection between Edric Ashara and Howland, then we just have too different way of thinking. And thus what I saw as possible clues, you didn't. Maybe I just have too wild imagination, and see things that aren't there , or maybe I'm very smart, and figured out GRRM's plan, faster than other readers . Could be either of those.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I don't know if this has ever been discussed and it does connect to the OP, but taking into consideration this as well;

She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned's sake, so long as they were out of sight. Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him. Somehow that made it worse. (Catelyn II, AGOT 6)

In the OP, Catelyn gives us a description of Ashara. Beautiful, tall and fair, which are pretty generic descriptions of someone. But Catelyn zeroes in on the eyes which are violet and I have to wonder if Jon's eyes were not some shade of purple (or whatever variance of that) when he was a baby before it finally settled on the grey that we know. 

Catelyn goes on to say that as Jon grew he looked more like Ned than her own sons. So may not have looked completely like a Stark when he was a small boy. Catelyn must have noticed a lot more about Jon than the things she said, but she didn't like him, so she'd rather not think of him all that much. But whatever she observed when Jon was a small boy, that information is not gone.

 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Finally, I keep wondering why, when the Daynes are such an important family in the events of the story, their family tree is so sketchy.

Not really. Unlike on this forum, in the books they're barely ever mentioned. Dayne is more or less tied with zo Loraq.

[Ygrain]

3 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I don't know if this has ever been discussed and it does connect to the OP, but taking into consideration this as well;

She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned's sake, so long as they were out of sight. Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him. Somehow that made it worse. (Catelyn II, AGOT 6)

In the OP, Catelyn gives us a description of Ashara. Beautiful, tall and fair, which are pretty generic descriptions of someone. But Catelyn zeroes in on the eyes which are violet and I have to wonder if Jon's eyes were not some shade of purple (or whatever variance of that) when he was a baby before it finally settled on the grey that we know. 

Catelyn goes on to say that as Jon grew he looked more like Ned than her own sons. So may not have looked completely like a Stark when he was a small boy. Catelyn must have noticed a lot more about Jon than the things she said, but she didn't like him, so she'd rather not think of him all that much. But whatever she observed when Jon was a small boy, that information is not gone.

I don't recall anyone bringing up Jon's childhood looks or Cat's view on this but it has been noted that Jon's eyes are a grey so dark that it seemed black (which is never mentioned about any other Stark), and the only other time a colour is so dark that it looks black, it is purple (with Darkstar). Pity we never had Ygritte's PoV, what she might have seen when she looked into his eyes real close

[Alexis-something-Rose]

39 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I don't recall anyone bringing up Jon's childhood looks or Cat's view on this but it has been noted that Jon's eyes are a grey so dark that it seemed black (which is never mentioned about any other Stark), and the only other time a colour is so dark that it looks black, it is purple (with Darkstar). Pity we never had Ygritte's PoV, what she might have seen when she looked into his eyes real close

No, no ever brings it up. It's just a different way of looking at Catelyn's thought in that chapter about Jon. I don't think the mention of Ashara's eye color is there just to tell us what her eye color was and that Jon may not always have looked like a Stark, that it was something that was more "progressive".

I don't know, it just seems like we're getting a lot more on Jon's looks from Catelyn without her being overt about it.

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

No, no ever brings it up. It's just a different way of looking at Catelyn's thought in that chapter about Jon. I don't think the mention of Ashara's eye color is there just to tell us what her eye color was and that Jon may not always have looked like a Stark, that it was something that was more "progressive".

I don't know, it just seems like we're getting a lot more on Jon's looks from Catelyn without her being overt about it.

I meant on the forums, not in-verse. Meaning, you can probably claim authorship of the idea :-)

Either way, the idea that Jon may not have been Ned's carbon copy since day one is definitely intriguing, and since Cat is not quite dead yet, we may still hear something interesting.

[Crona]

On 3/8/2018 at 4:29 PM, must needs the rushes said:

I imagine that this has been addressed elsewhere, but a site search and skims of relevant threads didn't reveal where, and I wonder what's your interpretation of this passage:

 

"Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

 

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice."

 

This strikes me as stronger confirmation of N+A=J than all indications of R+L=J combined, so I'm eager to learn why you think that Ned meant something else by it.

I took that passage to mean that Ashara had something to do with Jon. Not necessarily meaning she is his mother. But, yes she does connect in some way to Jon. Otherwise, why not just say that she is not the mother of him. And he also followed up with knowing where she got Ashara’s name and nobody gossiped about Ashara afterwards. 

[kissdbyfire]

9 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

This is the George... so we also need to consider whether there's anything in the text that actually disproves it, as well

Yes, this is Martin. And he doesn't really disprove most anything. That's why there are so many different theories on just about any mystery. Actually, there are several different theories on things that aren't even mysteries.

That said, I was replying specifically about Wylla not only being the wetnurse that went to Winterfell w/ Ned and baby Jon, but to the suggestion that she stayed there for years until she was summoned to GW. And to the idea that Ned Dayne was swapped somehow. 

@Megorova, I stand by what I said earlier. Sorry, but none of the quotes you provided do anything to change my mind. There's still no evidence nor hint that I can see. We will have to wait and see what happens in Winds.

[Rufus Snow]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

We will have to wait and see what happens in Winds.

Aye, there's the rub - I've not been waiting half so long as most people here, and I'm already going crazy

Just glad I've got some folk that understand my strange obsession, even if we don't all go down the same rabbitholes....

[Clegane'sPup]

4 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I don't think the mention of Ashara's eye color is there just to tell us what her eye color was and that Jon may not always have looked like a Stark, that it was something that was more "progressive".

On first read the author led me down the garden path. I din't much like it. Thing is the author failed to follow through with his multiple Jon baby momma drama.

This stuff about eye color meaning more than it is intended to mean is ludicrous.

My mom had brown eyes. My dad had smokey blue. I have hazel.

Knowing what I know about my family dunna even try to tell me mudder mixed it up with someone other than my dad.

Damn, wilya please Mr. Martin let loose of WoW.