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Quick question for R+L=J believers.


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16 hours ago, Megorova said:

No, he wasn't taking a nap. The original point of the fire kiss, is to cleanse a soul, to make it pass into afterlife without sins.

In Blind Girl chapter, there was a story about God with three heads. First head brings death, third head is rebirth. And in my opinion, second head purifies souls with fire, like in Purgatory.

So the purpose of the fire kiss is purification, not returning of life. And Berric's revival happened because it was R'hllor's will, to bring him back. And Berric's mission was to carry that fire, until his path will cross with Cat. He was revived to revive Cat. Everything happened like it was planned by R'hllor. It's one of those - God works in a mysterious way. ^_^

People are servants and instrumens of gods, not their children or valuable pets. They will live/function, as long as the god requires them to do, what he wants from them. And when they will accomplish their mission, with it will end their service and their existence. So there's no need to actually make them alive again. What for? They can do what they have to do, even without actually becoming alive again.

God/deity is a source of power/magic, all of it. Even those people, that doesn't pray in temples of that certain deity, still can be his servants/instruments and thus be given his power, to make with it miracles. Even if they themselves don't know nothing about that deity, or source of their power. Marionettes don't have to know, what puppeteer plan to make them do, he will just pull their threads, and they will do what needs to be done. Just look at Dany, no matter how many mistakes she does, things happen, that bring her back to right path. So eventually she will still accomplish her mission - to hatch dragons and bring them to Jon. And to do that, she doesn't even need to know what she's doing.

What you are proposing here is blind faith. And I'm going to have to insist that if you think R'hllor is a reality in the books that you prove that via quotes from the text, supported with quotes from the author etc. Because I'm afraid I am not simply going to accept your version of "Because I say so" as canon. 

Therae has said some really pertinent stuff. Great posts. 

You seriously can not expect to have a theory taken seriously if it is supported entirely by your own opinion and goes against the evidence to be found in the actual text. ie: that there is real magic in world which some people can wield, with varying degrees of prowess, that training in magics hones those skills, and that if you are so inclined you can learn to use lots of different forms of magic. But that various religions have adopted certain aspects of the in world magic and attribute them to their gods.

9 hours ago, Megorova said:

Inquisition. And crusades. People burned alive. And people killed. For God

Non of which makes god a real thing.  Not to get into that debate as I'm not sure of the forums rules on discussing the existence or not of the god of the abrahamic religions. But suffice to say that pointing out that people have done similar things in the real world to that which is done in the name of R'hllor in no way contributes towards your argument that R'hllor is intended by the author to be a real deity. 

The bellow quote only illustrates that Jaquen being from Bravos where they pay respects to ALL gods accepts that R'hllor is real. He likely also accepts the Seven as real and The Black Goat of Qohor too. Not to mention that his beliefs in no way prove the existence of a god, no more than Catelyn's do or the Elder Brother's. 

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Jaqen served to Many-Faced God, nevertheless he believes that R'hllor does exist. Otherwise why to pay him back?

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3 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

But suffice to say that pointing out that people have done similar things in the real world to that which is done in the name of R'hllor in no way contributes towards your argument that R'hllor is intended by the author to be a real deity. 

I think that R'hllor is something like force of nature, or spirit of fire, not some personality/identity. He's a force of nature, but with a higher consciousness, on totally different level than human's. He sends certain visions to certain people. That requires him to be something more, than just soulless and mindless source of magic. Though I think that he won't ever manifest himself on Planetos in a burning bush or pillar of light, like God in Bible did.

12 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

What?

AFAIK Christianity started with the Christ; the cult of Rh'llor existed well before the birth of a Rhaego which no one has heard of…

Rhaego's birth was expected for thousands years, and his coming was predicted in a prophecy. Same as birth of Jesus was predicted by Jewish prophets, centuries before he was born. Followers of Christ, created new religion - Christianity, but prior that, those people were followers of Jesus' Father, and he was a single God. And later the concept changed to the Holy Trinity - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

10 hours ago, Therae said:

His father followed the Great Stallion, his mother would have belonged to the Seven if she'd had any instruction, although it appears she did not--and when she thinks about gods, she just thinks it seems like a lonely thing to be and she wouldn't want to be one, but shows no particular leaning towards any of them, R'hllor included. Were he to have lived, he'd be a lot more likely to be an Attila the Great, not a Christ. The Dothraki aren't all that big on love and self-sacrifice (or turning the other cheek).

The Stallion that will mount the world, according to Dothraki prophecy, will unite all people into one khalasar, ALL people, not only Dothraki.

And when I was saying that Rhaego is based on Jesus, I meant more amongs those lines, that according to the Bible, during Apocalypse, Jesus will be leading God's armies against forces of evil, and he will be shepherd, that will unite all people (this is from last book of the Bible, about Armageddon):

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"And the stars shall fall from heaven." - Matthew 24:29.

"and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood--" - Revelation 1:5.

"These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful." - Revelation 17:14.

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war." - Revelation 19:11-16.

"From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty." - Revelation 19:15.

"The number of the armies of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them." - Revelation 9:16.

" "Therefore wait for Me," declares the LORD, "For the day when I rise up as a witness Indeed, My decision is to gather nations, To assemble kingdoms, To pour out on them My indignation, All My burning anger; For all the earth will be devoured By the fire of My zeal. " - Zephaniah 3:8.

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Revelation 19:12-17.

I saw heaven opened, and look! a white horse.t And the one seated on it is called Faithfulu and True,v and he judges and carries on war in righteousness.w 12  His eyes are a fiery flame,x and on his head are many diadems.* He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, 13  and he is clothed with an outer garment stained* with blood, and he is called by the name The Wordy of God. 14  Also, the armies in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen. 15  And out of his mouth protrudes a sharp, long swordz with which to strike the nations, and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron.a Moreover, he treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.b 16  On his outer garment, yes, on his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.c 17 

And this is from ASOIAF:

"As swift as the wind he rides, and behind him his khalasar covers the earth, men without number, with arakhs shining in their hands like blades of razor grass. Fierce as a storm this prince will be. His enemies will tremble before him, and their wives will weep tears of blood and rend their flesh in grief. The bells in his hair will sing his coming, and the milk men in the stone tents will fear his name. The prince is riding, and he shall be the stallion who mounts the world."

"The stallion is the khal of khals promised in ancient prophecy, child. He will unite the Dothraki into a single khalasar and ride to the ends of the earth, or so it was promised. All the people of the world will be his herd."

"Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo’s copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds. And he smiled for her and began to lift his hand toward hers, but when he opened his mouth the fire poured out. She saw his heart burning through his chest, and in an instant he was gone, consumed like a moth by a candle, turned to ash."

"The stallion who mounts the world will burn no cities now. His khalasar shall trample no nations into dust."

"A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him." <- this Dany's vision of the future from THOU, prove that Rhaego is alive, and Mirri lied about his death.

GRRM's parents were religious people, he attended religious grade school and Roman Catholic High School. All this events, about Long Night, are similar to biblical prophecy about Apocalypse. So yes, I think that GRRM is planning to end ASOIAF with

12 hours ago, Therae said:

an end-all be-all holy war with an actual winner, complete with its own JHC savior

Though I think, that when the book (ADOS) will end, the war will be still ongoing. The final book is called A Dream of Spring, because current characters will never see a spring, unless in their dreams. Because the war against the dead, will last for generation, same as winter. So Dany and Jon, and nearly everyone else, will die in battles, or from old age, and 7K will be ruled by their daughter Queen Lyanna, while her fiance Rhaego, will be on the other side of the world, fighting against the Others. GRRM did said that the ending is bittesweet.

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

I think that R'hllor is something like force of nature, or spirit of fire, not some personality/identity. He's a force of nature, but with a higher consciousness, on totally different level than human's. He sends certain visions to certain people. That requires him to be something more, than just soulless and mindless source of magic. Though I think that he won't ever manifest himself on Planetos in a burning bush or pillar of light, like God in Bible did.

But again, your not providing anything from the text or the author to back this up. Can't you see that just thinking something is not enough to convince others of your theories. Or refute theories of other peoples, especially when they DO provide evidence. 

The visions are not to the best that we can ascertain sent to people. This becomes obvious when you take into account that Alys who is just a bastard riverlands girl and in no way associated with R'hllor uses not only fire to seek visions but air and water too. 

Something else which sounds an awful lot like a "miracle" of R'hllor but which is performed by a Woodswitch is the story Dick Crab tells Brienne about the Whispers. She Kisses the severed heads of her husbands enemies and they COME BACK TO LIFE! Another woodswitch of history is said to have lived for hundreds of years, and another said that she could raise armies of the dead to throw back the Andals. 

These are all little clues that there is no R'hllor. There is only magic which some people can use. 

 

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On 3/13/2018 at 8:59 AM, Megorova said:

I wouldn't be so sure about that, what they can and what they can't do.

You may argue, that this scene from World War Z movie, has nothing to do with ASOIAF books.

And then you'll be wrong, because we do have this:

"That night he dreamt...Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. “Snow,” an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.

<snip

They did got OVER The Wall.

Yes, because Martin didn't write WWZ. You cannot use a zombie movie as evidence in a discussion about books from a series written by an entirely different person.

No, I won't be.

Martin has made a point of telling us in interviews and correspondence with fans that dreams in the series are not literal. You can see this clearly in how Ygritte actually died, compared to how Jon saw it in his dream.

And that dream was about the Wildling attack on Castle Black. Remember how the Wildlings were trying to climb the wall? He saw them as dead men because the attack was doomed. Dreams are symbolic.

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On 3/13/2018 at 9:10 AM, Widow's Watch said:

That's perfectly fine. I find it more interesting that out of the people that Ashara danced with, only one (Jon Connington) is still be alive since we don't know who the White Sword was and I'm assuming there's a reason for that since at three of them had nicknames that would have made them easily recognizable. So I think that's purposely vague. 

As far as Ashara goes, I used to think that she was alive because her body was never recovered, but not anymore. Seven years between books will do that. I think I'd be disappointed if she pops up.

Well I don't expect her to pop up unless Martin has flaunted her in front of us (but not as Septa Lemore). I expect even if Ashara didn't die all those years ago, she probably did in the intervening years.

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On 3/14/2018 at 10:08 AM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Not really. Unlike on this forum, in the books they're barely ever mentioned. Dayne is more or less tied with zo Loraq.

Except for the author's statement that we don't have the Dayne house words because they're a spoiler. They claim to be the oldest house in Westeros, with only some nobody family in the Vale claiming to go back as far--before the Long Night, even. They have a magic sword, that few get to wield, and have a cool title to go with it varied only by changing Morning to Evening. One of their kings sacked Oldtown, and one was sent to the Wall in chains. Queen Nymeria married Davos Dayne. And they're the only non-Valyrian family on the planet that's known for purple eyes.

They keep being brought up in the books. Catelyn thinks Ashara might be Jon's mother. Ned remembers Arthur. Cersei accuses Ned of stealing Ashara's child. Edric tells Arya a bunch of things he got second-hand at best. Meera tells the story that includes the girl with the laughing purple eyes. Barristan remembers Ashara multiple times. And that's not an exhaustive list either. GRRM keeps mentioning them. I doubt it's because he's thrilled with his own cleverness at the name Day+ne, Dawn, and the Sword of the Morning.

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On 3/13/2018 at 5:28 AM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

The little crannogman observed everything. For example, one sentence earlier, he noted, for the benefit of the future generations (and the readers), with whom the "storm lord" had a drinking contest. Everything he remembered, including Bob drinking Richard Lonmouth under the table, might be significant storywise, but would it also be significant personally to Howland himself? Generally, I don't see, why.

Therefore, I require something more to consider Howland + Ashara.

Actually, yes that could all be significant to him personally. Can't tell you how at this point, but it could.

That's fair. 

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On 3/16/2018 at 8:19 PM, Megorova said:

Inquisition. And crusades. People burned alive. And people killed. For God.

Seems that this fire religion is based on Christianity, where Rhaego is like Jesus Christ. King of kings, that will unite all people. And the Stallion that will mount the world, is khal of khals. Khal is equivalent of a King.

There's also other symbols in ASOIAF, taken from Christianity. Like sacrificial lamb, during Red Wedding. Unicorns and griffins on doors of House of Black and White, that are symbols of Jesus. And burning heart, that Melisandre and Stannis use as symbol of Azor Ahai and R'hllor. Which is also a symbol of Jesus. R'hllor's Fiery Hands are like crusaders or knight templars. And High Priest of Volantis is like Pope of Rome.

Jaqen served to Many-Faced God, nevertheless he believes that R'hllor does exist. Otherwise why to pay him back?

GRRM has said the R'hllorism is based on Zoroastrianism.

The Seven is loosely based on Catholicism (think the trinity on acid). The High Septon is the pope equivalent.

Rhaego is in no way a Christ figure. He didn't even live. And Khal means prince, not king.

There was no lamb at the Red Wedding, and GRRM could easily have worked one in, either through the menu or a house sigil.

Unicorns and gryphons are not symbols of Jesus.

The High Priest of Volantis means nothing to a religion centered in Asshai.

You are forcing all of the symbolism.

Jaqen serves the Many-Faced God yes. But the servants of the MFG believe that he is the ONLY God and all the others are him, it's just people know him by different names. The MFG is death-centered so of course if his fire persona was cheated out of three deaths, the death cult guy is going to say he has to give MFG three other deaths.

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On 3/14/2018 at 7:35 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

On first read the author led me down the garden path. I din't much like it. Thing is the author failed to follow through with his multiple Jon baby momma drama.

This stuff about eye color meaning more than it is intended to mean is ludicrous.

My mom had brown eyes. My dad had smokey blue. I have hazel.

Knowing what I know about my family dunna even try to tell me mudder mixed it up with someone other than my dad.

Damn, wilya please Mr. Martin let loose of WoW.

 

I see. And which one of your parents had magic dragon blood? Real world eye color genetics are not a good measure of Planetos eye color genetics.

GRRM has planted certain things for a reason, and one very very important one is eye color. Targs have eyes in all shades of purple: some have really dark eyes that can be mistaken for black, like Aegon V and possibly Rhaegar with his indigo; some have pale eyes of a lilac hue like Viserys III; some have violet eyes like Dany, and a very few have blue like Alysanne and Valarr.

The Starks tend to have grey eyes, which is why it's interesting that of all Catelyn's children only Arya has those grey eyes, drawing a parallel to Jon who looks so much like a Stark that Cat is bothered by it--in fact he looks like Arya, who looks like Lyanna...

The George likes to keep us off balance by adding Daynes and Tyroshi but the eye color thing actually can be a clue.

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1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Except for the author's statement that we don't have the Dayne house words because they're a spoiler.

We Bring the Light.

:)

Dawn sword of Daynes is Azor Ahai's Lightbringer ^_^

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

There was no lamb at the Red Wedding, and GRRM could easily have worked one in, either through the menu or a house sigil.

There was.

Dany prophetic vision in THOU:

"Farther on she came upon a feast of corpses. Savagely slaughtered, the feasters lay strewn across overturned chairs and hacked trestle tables, asprawl in pools of congealing blood. Some had lost limbs, even heads. Severed hands clutched bloody cups, wooden spoons, roast fowl, heels of bread. In a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter, and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal."

Actual event:

"The servers were bringing out huge silver platters piled high with cuts of juicy pink lamb, the most appetizing dish they’d seen all evening."

Shortly after they brought the lamb, the killing started. So this dish was symbolic, also it was the best food of that feast, the rest of food was so so. It was symbolising sacrificial lamb, and the butchery that will happen soon.

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Unicorns and gryphons are not symbols of Jesus.

(Not gryphons, griffins)

Yes, they are.

https://aleteia.org/2017/08/14/how-the-griffin-became-a-symbol-of-christ/

"When the image was taken up by Christians it became a surprising symbol of Christ. According to the Academy of Classical Christian Studies, “The griffin became for [Christians] a rich symbol of the two natures of Christ Himself: the eagle, which is lord of the sky, reminds us of the divine nature, while the lion, which is lord of the earth (the ‘king of beasts’), reminds us of the human nature. Together, they remind us that our Lord is the true King of the heavens and the earth.”

Saint Isidore even notes how, “Christ is Lion because He reigns and has strength; Eagle, because after the Resurrection He rises into Heaven.”

The griffin is also closely connected to the book of Revelation, where it is mentioned: “And round the throne, on each side of the throne, are four living creatures … the first living creature like a lion, the second living creature like an ox, the third living creature with the face of a man, and the fourth living creature like a flying eagle” (Revelation 4:6-7)."

http://www.margaretstarbird.net/unicorn.html

"The medieval unicorn is widely accepted as a symbol for Jesus Christ."

http://castlelyons7.blogspot.com/2008/09/christ-unicorn.html

"We find the symbolism of the unicorn as Christ in many medieval writings, and even in writings from long before the medieval age. As early as the fourth century A.D., saints had been known to refer to Christ as a unicorn."

http://www.biblicalhorizons.com/open-book/no-28-concerning-unicorns/

"Like the phoenix (the legendary bird that dies and rises from its ashes every millennium), the unicorn was adopted by Christians as a symbol of Christ. The fact that he had one horn meant that he was one in power (horn = power) with the Father. St. Basil (329-379) wrote, "Christ is the power of God, therefore He is called the Unicorn on the ground that He has one horn, that is, one common power with the Father."

In the Middle Ages, the unicorn was used as a symbol of love as well as a Christ image."

And burning heart is also symbol of Jesus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Heart

GRRM does uses lots of religious symbols. That's because he's from religious family, and he attended Roman Catholic highschool.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_R._R._Martin#Early_life

"In response to a question on his religious views, Martin replied: "I suppose I'm a lapsed Catholic. You would consider me an atheist or agnostic. I find religion and spirituality fascinating. I would like to believe this isn't the end and there's something more, but I can't convince the rational part of me that makes any sense whatsoever." "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_R._R._Martin#Personal_life

He considers himself to be atheist or agnostic, but religion is fascinating for him. Which is obvious from his books, for which he created a few of his own religions - Old Gods, R'hllor, The Seven, Drowned God, Many Faced God, etc.

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

You are forcing all of the symbolism.

No, I'm not.

GRRM did wrote about Rhaego - khal of khals, that will unite all Dothraki into one khalasar, and all people of the world will be his herd. Is it a mere coincidence, that similar things were written in the Revelation about Jesus, that is King of kings, and Lord of lords, and that he will unite all people and will be their shepherd? I think that GRRM did used Bible as a source of some symbols in his books.

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5 minutes ago, Megorova said:

We Bring the Light.

:)

Dawn sword of Daynes is Azor Ahai's Lightbringer ^_^

May or may not be the right house words, but Dawn is definitely the leading candidate for Lightbringer, if in fact such a sword exists. 

I prefer to think their words play off of House Hightower's.

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1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Except for the author's statement that we don't have the Dayne house words because they're a spoiler. They claim to be the oldest house in Westeros, with only some nobody family in the Vale claiming to go back as far--before the Long Night, even. They have a magic sword, that few get to wield, and have a cool title to go with it varied only by changing Morning to Evening. One of their kings sacked Oldtown, and one was sent to the Wall in chains. Queen Nymeria married Davos Dayne. And they're the only non-Valyrian family on the planet that's known for purple eyes.

They keep being brought up in the books. Catelyn thinks Ashara might be Jon's mother. Ned remembers Arthur. Cersei accuses Ned of stealing Ashara's child. Edric tells Arya a bunch of things he got second-hand at best. Meera tells the story that includes the girl with the laughing purple eyes. Barristan remembers Ashara multiple times. And that's not an exhaustive list either. GRRM keeps mentioning them. I doubt it's because he's thrilled with his own cleverness at the name Day+ne, Dawn, and the Sword of the Morning.

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks the Daynes are significant beyond their scanty appearances :thumbsup: And even so, I had overlooked the bolded bit above, so thanks for throwing that into the pot.

I'm really struggling for their House Words, though, and most of my thoughts around that keep circling around Ned taking Dawn back to Starfall, and the otherwise unlikely affection between the two Houses. For one thing, looking across ASoIaF and AWoIaF there's a long tradition of capturing the swords of other families - the Royces taking Lady Forlorn and then the Corbrays taking it back, and ... oh, my mind's gone blank, but that Red Ironman something-or-other with his captured VS blade... it just seems really rare to give one back voluntarily, is my point.

So my guessing at their words are along the lines of 'Summer is coming', 'After the night, the dawn', or 'The darkest hour falls before dawn'.... but yeah, it's all guesswork, I admit, with the third one being my favourite so far....

 

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On 3/14/2018 at 8:35 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

On first read the author led me down the garden path. I din't much like it. Thing is the author failed to follow through with his multiple Jon baby momma drama.

This stuff about eye color meaning more than it is intended to mean is ludicrous.

My mom had brown eyes. My dad had smokey blue. I have hazel.

Knowing what I know about my family dunna even try to tell me mudder mixed it up with someone other than my dad.

Damn, wilya please Mr. Martin let loose of WoW.

 

No offense, but I'm not a fan of bringing up real world genetics into a fantasy story. With all the incest in the Targaryen line, Rhaegar and Dany wouldn't be called beautiful, they would be the stuff of nightmares, instead. A cross between Moe Szyslak and a hairy troll. Even Tyrion would look beautiful by comparison.

The point of my post was that Catelyn thinks that as Jon grew he looked more like Ned than her own sons. So Jon may not have had all the Stark looks he does now. And her thoughts point to Ashara's eye color. And as far as we know, Catelyn and Ashara never crossed paths. The only physical description (outside of the height) that Catelyn gives us is Ashara's her eye color. She confronts Ned with the result that we know, she tells us that Ned must have loved Jon's mother fiercely because Ned wouldn't send Jon away and how he was always there and that as he grew he looked more like Ned than her sons. So the possibility that Jon looked more like his other parent is there. It had to be more than the rumors around the castle that prompted her to confront Ned over who Jon's mother was, that perhaps she saw something that lent credence to what she saw in Jon's face. And the only thing we know about Ashara up to that point is her eye color.

It's really just a different take on Catelyn's thoughts. 

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23 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

No offense, but I'm not a fan of bringing up real world genetics into a fantasy story.

No offense taken. I'm not a fan of the ^ either. I guess I could have stated it better. Been more blunter. :mellow:

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On 19/03/2018 at 1:40 AM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

There was no lamb at the Red Wedding, and GRRM could easily have worked one in, either through the menu or a house sigil.

There was lamb served at the Red Wedding. 

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The servers were bringing out huge silver platters piled high with cuts of juicy pink lamb, the most appetizing dish they'd seen all evening. And Robb was leading Dacey Mormont in a dance.

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Merrett Frey poured himself another cup of wine, while Jinglebell wandered about stealing bites off the plates of those who'd left. Ser Wendel Manderly was lustily attacking a leg of lamb.

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 It is nothing, she tried to tell herself, you are seeing grumkins in the woodpile, you are become an old silly woman sick with grief and fear. But something must have shown on her face. Even Ser Wendel Manderly took note. "Is something amiss?" he asked, the leg of lamb in his hands.

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Ser Wendel Manderly rose ponderously to his feet, holding his leg of lamb. A quarrel went in his open mouth and came out the back of his neck.

All taken from ASoS Catelyn VII

I've seen this claim multiple times, that no lamb was served at the Red Wedding, thus it can't possibly be the event that Dany foresaw in the House of the Undying. But there's clearly lamb mentioned as being served. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 3/20/2018 at 8:12 AM, Unacosamedarisa said:

There was lamb served at the Red Wedding. 

All taken from ASoS Catelyn VII

I've seen this claim multiple times, that no lamb was served at the Red Wedding, thus it can't possibly be the event that Dany foresaw in the House of the Undying. But there's clearly lamb mentioned as being served. 

Thank you, Unacosamedarisa! I have forgotten far too many things from the series.

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On 3/18/2018 at 9:50 PM, Rufus Snow said:

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks the Daynes are significant beyond their scanty appearances :thumbsup: And even so, I had overlooked the bolded bit above, so thanks for throwing that into the pot.

I'm really struggling for their House Words, though, and most of my thoughts around that keep circling around Ned taking Dawn back to Starfall, and the otherwise unlikely affection between the two Houses. For one thing, looking across ASoIaF and AWoIaF there's a long tradition of capturing the swords of other families - the Royces taking Lady Forlorn and then the Corbrays taking it back, and ... oh, my mind's gone blank, but that Red Ironman something-or-other with his captured VS blade... it just seems really rare to give one back voluntarily, is my point.

So my guessing at their words are along the lines of 'Summer is coming', 'After the night, the dawn', or 'The darkest hour falls before dawn'.... but yeah, it's all guesswork, I admit, with the third one being my favourite so far....

 

It's true that captured swords are never returned but it's also true that Dawn is no ordinary sword. That sword is so fixed in people's minds as belonging to House Dayne that not returning it might have caused some issues.

I have a head canon (one of many) that Dawn is actually the original Ice and was given to the Daynes for safekeeping until the next Long Night comes around--if that were the case, Ned might have heard the story and even if he didn't believe it, something might have told him "hey, give that sword back!"

If we look at the words of other important ancient houses, it's not too hard to guess what the Dayne words could be.

The Starks are about winter. The Hightowers light the way. The Tarlys are first in battle. The Tolletts words are "when all is darkest." So yes, I agree that something about Dawn is very likely.

Though I also like to think they play off of Hightowers' "We light the way" with "We light the tower." ;)

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On 3/8/2018 at 11:33 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

First of all, we aren't believers. We are simply not denying reality
Secondly, it is a book, and a red herrings abound. And a dayne mom would not fit the story as well as a stark and a targ. 

This.  R+L=J is simply the reality.

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13 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I have a head canon (one of many) that Dawn is actually the original Ice and was given to the Daynes for safekeeping until the next Long Night comes around--if that were the case, Ned might have heard the story and even if he didn't believe it, something might have told him "hey, give that sword back!"

I have always thought that Dawn, The runic bronze armor of the Royces and Winterfell were the possessions of the last hero that were divided amongst his heirs for safe keeping. 

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4 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I have always thought that Dawn, The runic bronze armor of the Royces and Winterfell were the possessions of the last hero that were divided amongst his heirs for safe keeping. 

In which case the Last Hero would potentially have been a Dayne, because they're very likely the oldest house in Westeros. Only one other somewhere in the Vale claims to go back as far as the Daynes' 10,000 years...one of the Shetts I think.

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