Quick question for R+L=J believers.

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

5 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Haha, yeah I was just thinking . Eh? but that post was directed at the OP?  

Yes I’m with you now. You simply used a quote from me. Again my apologies for the confusion. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

17 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

You realize all the clones from the clone wars were clones of Boba Fett... so he had a small in story roll and a huge backstory impact. Like universe defining... I’m not sure that is the point you were trying to make.

 

Actually all the clones are cloned from Jango Fett. Just to be pedantic as fuck. As you were. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

1 minute ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

Yes I’m with you now. You simply used a quote from me. Again my apologies for the confusion. 

Maybe my role today is just to keep teasing you. Sorry please understand I'm doing it in the absolute best of humour not being a knober. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Questions for the OP. 

1; If Ashara is Jon's mother why hide it? 

2; If Ashara is Jon's mother explain how she communicated with and located Ned at the time required for his conception window whilst Ned was in a war zone in the Riverlands, presumably encamped in a pretty changeable location given how campaigning works. Using evidence in the actual text. As a helpful hint I'll point out that Jon's window of conception is roughly 4 weeks given how close in age he and Robb are and the fact we have Robb's exact conception. Cat tells us it was her wedding night. Before which Ned was at the Batle of the Bells. and he Stayed with Cat for a fortnight. So essentially he had to shag Ashara during the battle of the bells period. He arrived with Hoster Tully and Jon Arryn who he met up with after marching south from WF with his men.  He could I suppose have met up with Ashara immediately after leaving Cat at RR, but the tight conception window required for the minute age gap between him and Robb is closing fast. And as Robert was at the wedding one presumes he and Ned travelled together at this point to the Trident Yet Robert has no idea who Jon's mother is and assumes a camp follower or chanced upon wench, who you will recall Ned waves off as "Wylla" in AGOT. Had Ashara Dayne rocked up one night I think he might have noticed. 

3; Explain why Ned Dayne thinks Jon's mum is Wylla the house wet nurse? Given that he lived in Starfall surrounded by people who knew Ashara and Wylla at the time it all went down. If Ashara is Jon's mum why spread a false rumour that Wylla is? What purpose does it serve?

4; If Ned was Ashara's lover and fathered an illegitimate child upon her how come Barristan "all propriety" Selmy who was in love with Ashara shows no animosity towards Ned and counts him an honourable man?   

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

3 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

3; Explain why Ned Dayne thinks Jon's mum is Wylla the house wet nurse? Given that he lived in Starfall surrounded by people who knew Ashara and Wylla at the time it all went down. If Ashara is Jon's mum why spread a false rumour that Wylla is? What purpose does it serve?

This is the question that I keep going back to with regard to Catelyn's thoughts on Ned taking Arthur's sword to Ashara. If Ashara is this deep in her grief that she ends up killing herself, then she may not be in that head space where she is making up stories about Wylla. 

But really, it's the whole Ned taking the sword back to Ashara specifically that has me mostly wondering. The story that Catelyn gives us is rather romantic. The beautiful, Ashara, tall and fair with haunting violet eyes, the man who loved her also slew her brother is the one who brings her the sword back. Harwin says that he was about Arya's age when he heard the story. 

If Ashara had been the only Dayne in Starfall, then she would have received the sword from Ned. Otherwise, I think Ned would have wanted to give the sword back to Arthur's father or the eldest brother. 

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, must needs the rushes said:

I'm not convinced in any direction of Jon's parentage, so I imagine a lot of this is wishful thinking on my part that GRRM is too good a writer to allow the hidden prince cliche embodied in RLJ.

I think you can rest assured - if Jon proclaims his heritage, sit on the IT to everyone and their mother's rejoicing and live happily ever after, I'll eat my shoes. R+L=J is merely Jon's parentage. The effect it will have on Jon and Westeros.... there are so many ways the hidden prince trope can be deconstructed that GRRM is bound to do something about it. For one, I don't think that Jon will be happy when his dream of a highborn mother and not being a bastard comes true in this way.

[Wolf of The Wall]

5 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I think you can rest assured - if Jon proclaims his heritage, sit on the IT to everyone and their mother's rejoicing and live happily ever after, I'll eat my shoes. R+L=J is merely Jon's parentage. The effect it will have on Jon and Westeros.... there are so many ways the hidden prince trope can be deconstructed that GRRM is bound to do something about it. For one, I don't think that Jon will be happy when his dream of a highborn mother and not being a bastard comes true in this way.

Agreed. This is not a mere hidden prince trope. I don't think Jon will assume his place at Iron Throne after the reveal of his parentage. I don't think there will be an IT to sit upon at all. Story GRRM brewing from the first page is too big to restore point zero after shit goes down. After a fight against a magical icemen race and their undead thralls I dont think we will just return to a peaceful Westeros where everyone lives happily ever after under the just reign of King Jon I.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

46 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

This is the question that I keep going back to with regard to Catelyn's thoughts on Ned taking Arthur's sword to Ashara. If Ashara is this deep in her grief that she ends up killing herself, then she may not be in that head space where she is making up stories about Wylla. 

But really, it's the whole Ned taking the sword back to Ashara specifically that has me mostly wondering. The story that Catelyn gives us is rather romantic. The beautiful, Ashara, tall and fair with haunting violet eyes, the man who loved her also slew her brother is the one who brings her the sword back. Harwin says that he was about Arya's age when he heard the story. 

If Ashara had been the only Dayne in Starfall, then she would have received the sword from Ned. Otherwise, I think Ned would have wanted to give the sword back to Arthur's father or the eldest brother. 

I assume you refer to this bit? 

Quote

They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. 

The assumption that Ned took the sword to Ashara specifically is made by the soldiers who were not there. The story sounds devastatingly romantic yes. But it is a tale told by servants and soldiers. It isn't even remotely primary information. We can not assume that he took the sword specifically to Ashara. 

I'm not sure I can buy the idea of a deranged Ashara spreading malicious rumours about the House Wetnurse. Seems a bit unsupported. I mean where is the in text evidence? Surely if that were the case we'd have some recollection that the fair Lady Ashara went mad before she jumped. Accusing random people of gods only knows what. 

Chances are Ned did indeed return Dawn to Lord Dayne be it Arthur's father or brother. But that doesn't sounds anywhere near as romantic as the version the WF staff were telling does it. 

[Megorova]

5 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Anyway, this idea pulls together some things I've found odd. Firstly, for all that is supposed to have happened - Ned killing Arthur in 'single combat', Ashara 'commiting suicide', yet Edric (Ned) Dayne being named for the Ned, and there obviously being a strong affection between the Daynes and Ned... come on you don't get 'fond' of someone just for returning a sword, if that also entailed the death of its bearer. So that always struck me as a false note. Now with Meg's idea, it makes more sense.

That's exactly how I got this idea, about Ashara and Howland. Ned supposedly killed Arthur, and because of him Ashara supposedly commited suicide, but they called their little Lord with Ned's name? Ridiculous! Add to this Meera's story - Howland was watching Ashara like a hawk, even remembered everyone with whom she danced. And also a rumor that Ashara was somehow dishonored during Tournament. So I think that during that feast, Rhaegar noticed Lyanna, and Howland was beside her. Probably Howland had his shield. So when a few days later, appeared the Knight of the Laughing Tree, Rhaegar realised that it's Lyanna, and that the shield the knight has, is Howland's shield. And when King ordered to his knights to unmask the Mystery Knight on the next day, Rhaegar asked Arthur to send Ashara to Lyanna or Howland, to warn them about what's going to happen. That's why the Knight didn't returned next day, furthermore they got rid of that shield, by abandoning it in a tree's hollow. Probably someone saw Ashara that night, near Starks' tent, because Howland was also living there, and Lyanna too (and some people thought that Ashara went there to see Ned, because earlier she was dancing with him). So Ashara went to warn either one of them, or both.

So during that feast, Howland was watching Ashara. And then she also came to warn him. And after what happened at Harrenhal, Howland became Ned's and Lyanna's friend. So my guess, is that when Lyanna was kidnapped, Howland were looking for her all over Westeros. And because it was known, that among those people, that kidnapped Lyanna, was Arthur Dayne, probably Howland, in search of clues where to look for Lyanna, went to Ashara to Starfall. That's when their relationship started. And that's also how Ned has find out where Lyanna is - Howland told him, and Howland find it out from Ashara.

All this details added together, perfectly fill the gaps, missing from the official story.

And there's another reason why A+N =/= J. Jon was born in late 283, probably in September (October, November). This is based on when his birthday was, some time after he came to The Wall, and uncle Benjen left him, so it was in second part of the year. Thus the earliest, when Jon could have been born is July, and the latest is December. So he was conceived between October 282 and March 283, and in that period Ned was nowhere near Ashara, he was battling in a war. Ashara was Elia's lady-in-waiting, in the Rebellion Dorne was on Targaryens' side, thus it's unlikely that Ashara at that time was somewhere on territory controlled by Ned's and Robert's troops. Most likely she was at Starfall, and near the end of Rebellion, went to the Tower of Joy. Because someone had to bring Wylla there. Arthur and other two Kingsguards, couldn't leave, because they were ordered by Rhaegar to protect his wife, and their unborn child. So probably Arthur sent the message to Starfall, to Ashara, and ordered her to bring to the TofJ a wet nurse for the future baby. And because it was very important, Ashara also went with Wylla, escorted her there, to be sure, that Lyanna and her pregnancy will stay a secret, from those that may harm them. And because Ashara and Wylla were already there, when Lyanna and Arthur died, then there was no need for Ned, to go to Starfall with Dawn sword. That's also the reason why I think that Starks still have that sword. It's hidden near Lyanna's statue in crypts under Winterfell. And that sword is a Lightbringer. When Jon had nightmares about those crypts, it was the sword calling him there, because Jon is Azor Ahai. He saw himself in another of his nightmares, fighting on The Wall, wielding blazing sword. And because Jon is most likely son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and thus he is a Targaryen, then his dreams are prophetic.

At least that's my theory, and it all fits together.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

3 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I'm not sure I can buy the idea of a deranged Ashara spreading malicious rumours about the House Wetnurse. Seems a bit unsupported. I mean where is the in text evidence? Surely if that were the case we'd have some recollection that the fair Lady Ashara went mad before she jumped. Accusing random people of gods only knows what. 

No, wait. I didn't say she was deranged. I just have doubts think she was part of any kind of scheme or cover-up if she was so grief-stricken over the losses she had recently suffered that she ended up killing herself.

I also doubt she is hiding anywhere under some other identity. So there's that.

[SirArthur]

10 minutes ago, Megorova said:

All this details added together, perfectly fill the gaps, missing from the official story.

The only reason you won't get attacked over this story is because this forum has become abusive over any idea not matching Rhaegar + Lyanna, even if it uses the exact same argument.

Quote

, Rhaegar asked Arthur to send Ashara to Lyanna or Howland

For this sentence alone, mentioned outside R+L=J, you would get declared "believer in invisible pink unicorns". How can Rhaegar even know about Ashara, the sister of his closest friend and lady-in-waiting of his wife ? Blasphemy. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

20 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

bingo! N+A=J. The. Reddest. Of. All. Herrings.

Hah!

[Megorova]

5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I think you can rest assured - if Jon proclaims his heritage, sit on the IT to everyone and their mother's rejoicing and live happily ever after, I'll eat my shoes.

I think that no one will sit on Iron Throne. Because it's made of Valyrian steel, and thus when people will realise it, the throne will be dismantled, and reforged into thousands swords, to fight with them against Undead Army.

"The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke." - AGOT, Bran I.

" “Ser Jorah Mormont,” she said, “first and greatest of my knights, I have no bride gift to give you, but I swear to you, one day you shall have from my hands a longsword like none the world has ever seen, dragon-forged and made of Valyrian steel." - AGOT, Dany X.

"Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade." - AGOT, Dany IX.

"The way the throne is described in the books... HUGE, hulking, black and twisted, with the steep iron stairs in front, the high seat from which the king looks DOWN on everyone in the court..." - GRRM, first link in references, on Iron Throne's page in ASOIAF wikia.

"He sat high upon the immense ancient seat of Aegon the Conqueror, an ironwork monstrosity of spikes and jagged edges and grotesquely twisted metal. It was, as Robert had warned him, a hellishly uncomfortable chair, and never more so than now, with his shattered leg throbbing more sharply every minute. The metal beneath him had grown harder by the hour, and the fanged steel behind made it impossible to lean back." - AGOT, Eddard XI.

"Have you ever seen the Iron Throne? The barbs along the back, the ribbons of twisted steel, the jagged ends of swords and knives all tangled up and melted?" - ASOS, Davos IV.

The barbs along the back - fanged steel behind. Aside from those steel barbs, there's even more steel - the ribbons of twisted steel. And the entire throne is made from that black and twisted metal (aside from iron stairs in front of it), and that's Valyrian steel, that is dark as smoke, and smoke is black colored. Iron Throne was forged in dragonflame, and according to what Dany said, Valyrian steel is also forged in dragonflame. And swords of Targaryens (those ghost kings from Dany's dream) were also Valyrian steel, and they were seen as swords of pale fire. Probably because Valyrian steel has a bit of dragonfire left inside of them. Thus Valyrian steel is deadly to the Others and White Walkers. Because basically it is a fire in a solid form + metal as its physical vessel. And fire kills wights. 

Thus Baratheons-Lannisters are last monarchs of 7K, that will sit on Iron Throne. Whoever will become ruler of 7K after them, will have a different throne.

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

The only reason you won't get attacked over this story is because this forum has become abusive over any idea not matching Rhaegar + Lyanna, even if it uses the exact same argument.

For this sentence alone, mentioned outside R+L=J, you would get declared "believer in invisible pink unicorns". How can Rhaegar even know about Ashara, the sister of his closest friend and lady-in-waiting of his wife ? Blasphemy. 

I don't understand, how people can ignore facts, written in the books - Jon's dream, where he had a blazing sword, and was fighting against Undead Army, and that when Melisandre asked R'hllor to show her Azor Ahai, the flames kept showing to her Jon Snow. This is facts, not speculations - Jon had a blazing sword, and flames showed that he is Azor Ahai. And we know that the Prince that was promised, is a descendant of Rhaella and Aerys, and that's Rhaegar and his children, and Dany and her children.

There's just too many clues, that point out to Jon being a dragon / Targaryen secret prince / Azor Ahai / one of three heads of the dragon.

At the time of Jon's conceivent, there was only one female Targaryen, and she was still pregnant when Jon was already born. Thus his mother wasn't a Targaryen. So the only option left is that his father is a Targaryen. At that time there was three male Targaryens - Viserys was too young, Aerys was hiding isolated in Red Keep, and thus there's only Rhaegar left as Jon's possible father. Add to this Jon's brand Stark looks, and the fact that there was only one female Stark at that time, thus Jon's mother is Lyanna.

[Nowy Tends]

38 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I think that no one will sit on Iron Throne. Because it's made of Valyrian steel,

What? According to the canon, the throne was "forged out of the swords that Aegon the Conqueror collected from the enemies he defeated in battle". The fact that these swords were melted with dragon fire doesn't make them "valyrian".

[kissdbyfire]

52 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I think that no one will sit on Iron Throne. Because it's made of Valyrian steel, and thus when people will realise it, the throne will be dismantled, and reforged into thousands swords, to fight with them against Undead Army.

Nope, the IT is not made of VS but of the swords of the lords Aegon the Conqueror defeated. 

There may be a couple of VS swords, but the vast majority is regular steel. 

'ed by @Nowy Tends! 

[The Fattest Leech]

On 3/8/2018 at 7:29 PM, must needs the rushes said:

I imagine that this has been addressed elsewhere, but a site search and skims of relevant threads didn't reveal where, and I wonder what's your interpretation of this passage:

 

"Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

 

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice."

 

This strikes me as stronger confirmation of N+A=J than all indications of R+L=J combined, so I'm eager to learn why you think that Ned meant something else by it.

Quick question for you, mnt rushes,

 Is this question of yours based on the video theory by that group order of the greenpalms (or whatever they are called?). If so, I would be extremely leary of believing everything they claim without doing your own, full, research first. Maybe that is why you posted this question? , but I just wanted to ask real quickly to try and help me figure it out.

[SirArthur]

43 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I don't understand, how people can ignore facts, written in the books -

Not facts. Possibilities. There are other people who can claim to be AA. Devan Seaworth is a hot candidate for everything besides the decendant prophecy. He even stands next to Mel when she sees Snow in the flames. And Dany as well.  

A lot of R+L is thought through from the end. Ignoring all the little details along the way. 

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Quick question for you, mnt rushes,

 Is this question of yours based on the video theory by that group order of the greenpalms (or whatever they are called?). If so, I would be extremely leary of believing everything they claim without doing your own, full, research first. Maybe that is why you posted this question? , but I just wanted to ask real quickly to try and help me figure it out.

Green palms? That what my girls eat! Don't you mean Green hand? Or is it green something else? Gods only know, but the few vids by this crew I watched gave me good hearty chuckles and plenty of eye rolls, nothing more.

 

[The Fattest Leech]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Green palms? That what my girls eat!

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

 

Don't you mean Green hand? Or is it green something else?

Maybe it is green hand?

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Gods only know, but the few vids by this crew I watched gave me good hearty chuckles and plenty of eye rolls, nothing more.

 

They can make pretzels faster than anyone I have ever seen.