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Future of Maidenpool and Horn Hill


Corvo the Crow

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Randyl Tarly's heir is married (or betrothed) to the daughter and now heir of Lord of Maidenpool. Who will be the overlord of the lands once the current heirs die (after having a child)? Will s/he answer to Reach or Riverlands? Or perhaps even directly to the Crown like Pennytree? 

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1 hour ago, Seams said:

What makes you think the heirs are going to die anytime soon. Maybe they will have a bunch of kids who will grow to maturity and divide up the lands among them.

He doesn't claim they die soon... that both Rickon and lady Mooton will die eventually is a given. What happens after that is interesting. I have thought about this kind of situation before and the books don't really give answers. Westeros doesn't seem to really like combining land so dividing it seems te most logical to me, first born son will get Horn Hill because of the surname and second will get Maidenpool. But what if there is only one heir?

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9 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

You meant Dickon.

I don't think that they will die soon.

In case they have two sons, one will answers to Riverrun, second to Reach.

Yes Dickon, thanks. Nobody knows when they will die but don't you think it's interesting what will happen if there aren't two heirs? Not much in the story shows what happens in this scenario, much of Europe's feudal history is fuelled by these kind of events and GRRM seems to want to skip this kind of difficulties but when he puts situations like Dickon and lady Maidenpool in the story a solution has to have crossed his mind I guess...

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I guess the respective Wardens settle the issue before the Monarch (if there is one at that time). It's important enough for them to care, since Mooton and Tarly are two prominent families.

Gotta take note, though, on Randyll taking Maidenpool and locking lord William in a tower. 

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21 minutes ago, Jon Fossoway said:

I guess the respective Wardens settle the issue before the Monarch (if there is one at that time). It's important enough for them to care, since Mooton and Tarly are two prominent families.

Gotta take note, though, on Randyll taking Maidenpool and locking lord William in a tower. 

Yes but being sidelined isn't the same as being stripped, Mooton sided with his liege Lord same as Bracken and Blackwood and they got invided back into the king's peace, why wouldn't Lord Mooton be?

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15 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Randyl Tarly's heir is married (or betrothed) to the daughter and now heir of Lord of Maidenpool. Who will be the overlord of the lands once the current heirs die (after having a child)? Will s/he answer to Reach or Riverlands? Or perhaps even directly to the Crown like Pennytree? 

Dickon will answer to the Ruler of the Reach and Eleanor (or more likely her appointed Castellan) will answer to the Ruler of the Riverlands. I doubt there will be an heir who directly rules both properties given the distance and we have yet to see Houses swallow up other Houses via marriage. 

The new ruler would likely appoint a castellan until he/she had an heir of their own to give it to. 

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It all depends on whether the Crown interferes, really, because any family can be attainted for putting a foot wrong, and their lands given away. But external factors aside and assuming Dickon grows up and sires a full quiver of sons, then I would expect his firstborn will keep Horn Hill, and his second would take Maidenpool, and thereby start a cadet branch, the Tarlys of Maidenpool. There are plenty of Houses across Westeros with cadet branches, like the Royces in the Vale, Daynes in Dorne, Red and Green Fossoways in the Reach. In time they can become more distant, such as the Karstarks in the North... so in a couple of hundred years time there may well be a House Tarlypool or somesuch...

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17 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Randyl Tarly's heir is married (or betrothed) to the daughter and now heir of Lord of Maidenpool. Who will be the overlord of the lands once the current heirs die (after having a child)? Will s/he answer to Reach or Riverlands? Or perhaps even directly to the Crown like Pennytree? 

It's a pickle. Here's your answer...

15 hours ago, Deepbollywood Motte said:

Yes Dickon, thanks. Nobody knows when they will die but don't you think it's interesting what will happen if there aren't two heirs? Not much in the story shows what happens in this scenario, much of Europe's feudal history is fuelled by these kind of events and GRRM seems to want to skip this kind of difficulties but when he puts situations like Dickon and lady Maidenpool in the story a solution has to have crossed his mind I guess...

The whole point will become... moot... though, when Dickon dies on a battlefield somewhere between Storm's End and Bronzegate. 

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3 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

It all depends on whether the Crown interferes, really, because any family can be attainted for putting a foot wrong, and their lands given away. But external factors aside and assuming Dickon grows up and sires a full quiver of sons, then I would expect his firstborn will keep Horn Hill, and his second would take Maidenpool, and thereby start a cadet branch, the Tarlys of Maidenpool. There are plenty of Houses across Westeros with cadet branches, like the Royces in the Vale, Daynes in Dorne, Red and Green Fossoways in the Reach. In time they can become more distant, such as the Karstarks in the North... so in a couple of hundred years time there may well be a House Tarlypool or somesuch...

But there isn't one listed in the canon, and that is enough for us. George provided a somewhat simplified world in that matter. There are cadet branches to some families, like the Goodbrothers, Harlaws, and the author carefully situates them. If Dick dies in some battle a conflict could certainly arise between Mooton and Tarly, since nor any of the families have cadet branches, Randyll hasn't any baseborn son squacking about and he is old.

 

17 hours ago, Deepbollywood Motte said:

Yes but being sidelined isn't the same as being stripped, Mooton sided with his liege Lord same as Bracken and Blackwood and they got invided back into the king's peace, why wouldn't Lord Mooton be?

Not sure what you mean with this. Sorry, my english is not that good.

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53 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

It all depends on whether the Crown interferes, really, because any family can be attainted for putting a foot wrong, and their lands given away. But external factors aside and assuming Dickon grows up and sires a full quiver of sons, then I would expect his firstborn will keep Horn Hill, and his second would take Maidenpool, and thereby start a cadet branch, the Tarlys of Maidenpool. There are plenty of Houses across Westeros with cadet branches, like the Royces in the Vale, Daynes in Dorne, Red and Green Fossoways in the Reach. In time they can become more distant, such as the Karstarks in the North... so in a couple of hundred years time there may well be a House Tarlypool or somesuch...

I'd imagine that his second son would tale the Mooton name. This can't be the first time something like this has arisen and given that their are a hundred or so Houses that have existed for a thousand years the chances are that, in general, the lands dictate what the lord will be called rather than their father. That is what we see in Dorne when women inherit and it is what seems to happen in Westeros when the female rulers like Lady Oakheart, Waynwood, Mormont pass their name down to their children rather than their husbands (presuming they are not all married to cousins). 

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Well surely there would be some instances of similar situations BUT we rarely see houses marrying outside their region, so this is the main point I wanted to raise; we see some succession issues but in all of them potential heirs are within the same region, even if they are in line to inherit some other title. What happens once the only heir  is also the heir to a title in another region or already holds lands there?

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9 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Well surely there would be some instances of similar situations BUT we rarely see houses marrying outside their region, so this is the main point I wanted to raise; we see some succession issues but in all of them potential heirs are within the same region, even if they are in line to inherit some other title. What happens once the only heir  is also the heir to a title in another region or already holds lands there?

In the Age of Heroes era of consolidation we saw plenty of this. The Starks married the daughter of the Marsh King and incorporated his realm into theirs, as they did with the daughters of many other defeated foes.

But that does not seem to be the practice any longer.

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18 hours ago, Jon Fossoway said:

I guess the respective Wardens settle the issue before the Monarch (if there is one at that time). It's important enough for them to care, since Mooton and Tarly are two prominent families.

Gotta take note, though, on Randyll taking Maidenpool and locking lord William in a tower. 

Lord William is out on good behavior for now.

40 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Well surely there would be some instances of similar situations BUT we rarely see houses marrying outside their region, so this is the main point I wanted to raise; we see some succession issues but in all of them potential heirs are within the same region, even if they are in line to inherit some other title. What happens once the only heir  is also the heir to a title in another region or already holds lands there?

I mean, the inheritance is not really gonna be up for much debate. There is only one heir we know of, since Myles Mooton died in RR. It should be pretty much as simple as Horn Hill going to first and Maidenpool going to second. The only problem is going to be if they only have one heir.

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On 10.03.2018 at 9:26 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

 

I mean, the inheritance is not really gonna be up for much debate. There is only one heir we know of, since Myles Mooton died in RR. It should be pretty much as simple as Horn Hill going to first and Maidenpool going to second. The only problem is going to be if they only have one heir.

And that is the point of this thread;  what happens if only one heir is left?

Two lordships which aren't in the same region and leagues apart from each other. Surely the lord paramount of the Reach won't agree that lands de jure part of his realm ruled by a lord/lady who is in Riverlands, or the other way around for Riverlands' LP. When there's a war it's enough trouble with lords who just have land in your region; They may answer your call to arms, they may sit idly at their lands (Hightower during conquest, some Stormlanders during 5K) or may even go over to the enemy (Vale,Stormlands,Riverlands lords dıring RR, Reach lords during 5K)

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  • 5 weeks later...

it will not come that far, i think.

the riverlands will again switch their owner at least once and then either lady mooton-tarly will be excluded from the line of succession or dickon tarly will be excluded from the group of living induviduals. (i really hope the second will happen, i really want that Randyll's plan to send Sam to the wall backfires and he will have no male heir in the end)

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In many European feudal societies, if one lord held different lands in the name of different overlords, then they would simply do homage to the two different lords. You even had kings doing homage to other kings for certain lands - the Kings of England did homage to the Kings of France at times for Normandy and Aquitaine. 

It would create all sorts of difficult situations if war broke out. Usually what would happen would be that the lord would have to pick a side, and the lands he held for one lord would be forfeit for breaking his feudal obligation. This sort of land seizure is what eventually contributed to effectively ending lords in Scotland and England holding lands on both sides of the border. A few wars between the Scottish and the English monarchs, and everyone had sooner or later lost their lands in one or the other kingdom. 

In that scenario, say if Dickon only had one son, he would do homage to Harrenhal for the Maidenpool lands, and Highgarden for the Horn Hill lands. 

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