Is Robert Baratheon another Mad King?

[Trigger Warning]

Having children with better claims than you murdered is basically par for the course with royalty. In context I wouldn't consider someone mad for ordering it. 

[Lord Lannister]

10 hours ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

 Name one situation where a man (who isn't Tywin Lannister) condones the rape of a highborn lady.

Randyll Tarly informs Brienne she could use a good raping.

 

But on subject, Robert's only grain of irrationality is concerning the Targaryens and his "true love" Lyanna. Given neither was abundant enough to be a factor, Robert Baratheon wasn't a mad king. He was just a piss poor king who didn't care about anything except sating his gluttony and lust.

[Universal Sword Donor]

3 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Randyll Tarly informs Brienne she could use a good raping.

Vargo Hoat

The Mountain

Roose Bolton

Pretty much any ironborn. Hell Vic condones the rape of Maesters

[Jon_Stargaryen]

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

No, he threatened his deputy, who refused to take action on a potential threat to his position as King. 

Rape is not about madness. It is about power

Phrasing it a different way doesn't change what it was.

He fired Ned for not being party to his assassination of a fourteen year old girl.

Also, rape can be about power, as well as being an expression of madness. The two are not mutually exclusive.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Bobby B . was not mad . He was not that bad of a king .

[Jon_Stargaryen]

31 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Vargo Hoat

The Mountain

Roose Bolton

Pretty much any ironborn. Hell Vic condones the rape of Maesters

You'll note that I also stated that they must be accepted by society. None of those men are widely accepted by society.

Roose is accepted because his allies hold hostages. The irornborn aren't accepted by greenlanders. Vargo Hoat is accepted by no one.

The Mountain would fall into the category of Tywin Lannister and his men.

[Universal Sword Donor]

10 minutes ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

You'll note that I also stated that they must be accepted by society. None of those men are widely accepted by society.

Roose is accepted because his allies hold hostages. The irornborn aren't accepted by greenlanders. Vargo Hoat is accepted by no one.

The Mountain would fall into the category of Tywin Lannister and his men.

Roose was accepted by Ned and Robb Stark, whilst he was committing said rapes. Hell Robb made Roose his defacto second in command. The Umbers also allegedly partake in First Night, though I have reason to be skeptical of Roose' claims. 

The Ironborn are part of the seven kingdoms. When they rebelled they were beaten and accepted back into the seven kingdoms. Robert accepting an oath from their erstwhile king to be a vassal is literally the definition of "accepted by greenlanders." Balon's mother was a Piper. They use maesters. Maesters wrote histories of the Ironborn. They trade regularly with non-IB merchants (see Myraham out of Oldtown). They have men in the Night's watch (see Cotter Pyke). They might prefer the old way and the greenlanders might not like them, but the IB are definitely part of Westerosi society.

But sure, yeah they aren't 'accepted by society.' Now that said, I didn't see the condition that you put down. I agree that Vargo is not accepted and the Mountain is definitely one of Tywin's men.  

[Lollygag]

By this definition of madness, one could probably claim that a significant percentage of Westeros is mad based on rapey tenancies, getting very angry at some point, and/or wanting to take out a rival (the real ones, not the imaginary ones).

The OP's perception of madness is an atypical definition of madness which isn't shared by most. While Westeros is a fantasy world, GRRM is a modern fella and crimes involving rape, taking out rivals, and being very angry do not in themselves qualify for insanity pleas in a court of law. I'm no lawyer, but it's my understanding that the insanity plea is based on the predominant views of modern psychology and psychiatry.

The OP can insist that Robert's actions are indicators of madness, but you can't convince me - at all - that Robert's actions are intended to be seen as insanity by the author as he hasn't shown any usage of "madness" which seems to deviate from the typical modern usage.

GRRM is very much a character writer who intends for his fantasy characters to be very relateable. Rape, extreme anger, and taking out very real rivals in themselves presented as madness works against this as most societies that I know of do not view these actions as madness, just as being really awful.

1 hour ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Bobby B . was not mad . He was not that bad of a king .

I'm no fan of Robert, but I agree that he's not that bad compared to Westeros' other kings.

He at least had the wherewithal to acknowledge that he had no head for / no interest in kinging and made sure to put in relatively competent people to rule in his stead and got out of the way. Self-honesty from a leader that one isn't interested in doing the job well and/or that one doesn't have the ability to do some or all of the job well is an underrated virtue in my book. Preferable to the leader who is incompetent and/or only interested in half-assing having their hands in everything and just screwing it all up.

[Dorian Martell's son]

3 hours ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

Phrasing it a different way doesn't change what it was.

It is phrased differently because it is different. 

3 hours ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

He fired Ned for not being party to his assassination of a fourteen year old girl.

she wasn't simply a 14 year old girl in the same way that Lord commander snow is not simply a 15 year old boy. She carried the hair to the Targaryen dynasty, one less than 2 decades gone and still a potential threat. In fact, the rest of the story shows how right Bob was. She had sacked two cities and conquered a third in slaver's bay back. Some child. The Wise Masters of Astapor though she was just a girl. Look what happened to them. 

4 hours ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

Also, rape can be about power, as well as being an expression of madness. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Rape is so very rarely an expression of madness it does not warrant consideration. It is always about power. Bob was king, and he felt he had sexual rights to his wife whether she wanted it or not. That isn't madness, that is pure power. 
So no, Bob was not in any way mad. Lazy, Drunken, Egotistical and a rapist?  Yes. Mad? No, 

[Kandrax]

3 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Roose was accepted by Ned and Robb Stark, whilst he was committing said rapes.

We don't know for sure whether they were aware or not what he is doing.

[The Sunland Lord]

1 hour ago, Kandrax said:

We don't know for sure whether they were aware or not what he is doing.

They probably weren't. The author took care of it when Roose cut off the miller's brother's tongue so that he wouldn't trouble Rickard with stories. 

And no, Robert wasn't mad. 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

So. If we dig deep, we find things that Robert said which... still aren't nearly as bad as the shit Aerys actually did.

What a silly, silly thread.

[Stormking902]

Is this even a question worth answering? Obviosly Robert isnt even CLOSE to being insane in any shape or form nor does he find joy in rape and murder, what you call rape against Cersie isnt rape at all in a feudal society. Robert tried to have a teenage girl murdered so what? All this shows is he is a realist and a Targaryan with a horse Lord for a father could be a danger to his reign which was 100% true btw. 

[Jon_Stargaryen]

6 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

It is phrased differently because it is different. 

she wasn't simply a 14 year old girl in the same way that Lord commander snow is not simply a 15 year old boy. She carried the hair to the Targaryen dynasty, one less than 2 decades gone and still a potential threat. In fact, the rest of the story shows how right Bob was. She had sacked two cities and conquered a third in slaver's bay back. Some child. The Wise Masters of Astapor though she was just a girl. Look what happened to them. 

Rape is so very rarely an expression of madness it does not warrant consideration. It is always about power. Bob was king, and he felt he had sexual rights to his wife whether she wanted it or not. That isn't madness, that is pure power. 
So no, Bob was not in any way mad. Lazy, Drunken, Egotistical and a rapist?  Yes. Mad? No, 

Here's the thing. You keep talking about madness and power is if they're mutually exclusive. As if by attributing an action to power, you negate the aspect of madness. It doesn't actually work that way. You can abuse power AND be mad. Ask Aerys Targaryen.

Actually, the rest of the show shows how wrong Robert was. She had no real desire for the throne until Robert tried to poison her and her unborn child. She'd been acclimating to the ways of the dothraki, until Robert threatened her life and her child's life. That's what pissed her and Drogo off, prompting him to promise her Westeros.

And both were simply 14/15 year old children until a certain point. Drogo's armies were just that: Drogo's.

Even if she wanted to lead them, not enough men would have followed her, and Drogo had made it clear he didn't care about the Iron Throne.

(This last bit was somewhat off topic. I just felt the need to clear up a common misconception)

[Jon_Stargaryen]

3 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Is this even a question worth answering? Obviosly Robert isnt even CLOSE to being insane in any shape or form nor does he find joy in rape and murder, what you call rape against Cersie isnt rape at all in a feudal society. Robert tried to have a teenage girl murdered so what? All this shows is he is a realist and a Targaryan with a horse Lord for a father could be a danger to his reign which was 100% true btw. 

What would you base this off of?

We only have a small section of his reign as a litmus test, and that small section showed him beating his wife, condoning rape and murder, screaming obscenities and threatening anyone who opposes his will (even the bad ones), and attempting to assassinate a couple of orphans.

That seems fairly unhinged to me.

You say that he doesn't find joy in rape or murder, but he certainly found some joy in it if he continued to do it to his wife. Also, you say that it isn't rape in a feudal society, but there are no other examples of a husband raping his wife (other than the truly depraved)

[Jon_Stargaryen]

4 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

So. If we dig deep, we find things that Robert said which... still aren't nearly as bad as the shit Aerys actually did.

What a silly, silly thread.

That's nice and all, but there are levels to madness in this world. Aerys wasn't actually mad before Duskendale; he was actually a better King than Robert (he didn't rape his wife, he didn't burn people, he kept himself groomed, etc.)

So my main point is that Robert is certainly on the madness spectrum, based on his violent outbursts towards people who certainly aren't his enemy (though Cersei would eventually be) and his insistence that all people who had were related to Aerys or Rhaegar had to die to the point of ranting about dragon spawn, despite not having any role in their deeds.

If that doesn't sound like madness to you, there's no point in trying to convince you.

[JaimeLannister;]

I think Robert's just lazy and coward when it comes to politics and responsibility. He is incapable of dealing with hard thinking and to truly take the blame of himself when it's needed. He's just a broken man who longs to look away and not place an eye on what he has become. 

[Stormking902]

2 hours ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

What would you base this off of?

We only have a small section of his reign as a litmus test, and that small section showed him beating his wife, condoning rape and murder, screaming obscenities and threatening anyone who opposes his will (even the bad ones), and attempting to assassinate a couple of orphans.

That seems fairly unhinged to me.

You say that he doesn't find joy in rape or murder, but he certainly found some joy in it if he continued to do it to his wife. Also, you say that it isn't rape in a feudal society, but there are no other examples of a husband raping his wife (other than the truly depraved)

Explain to me where he enjoyed rape and murder? Yes he raped Cersie by our standards but by feudal standards when your husband who btw is the king wants to have sex you usually agree, where is the murders he ordered that he enjoyed so much? Even Cersie doesnt claim he raped her. 

 

Killing orphans?? You mean Danny and Viserys TARGARYAN? The two people who were literally plotting to cross the narrow sea and retake the Iron Throne? Btw with a dothraki hoard who would rape, enslave, and murder who ever wasnt safe behind a castle wall. 

 

He screams and hollars obscenities at people who don't follow his orders? Well ya he is the KING his subjects are supppse to obey, beating Cersie was wrong but man its Cersie I don't feel to bad but he deffinitly was wrong in that in every way. 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

2 hours ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

That's nice and all, but there are levels to madness in this world. Aerys wasn't actually mad before Duskendale; he was actually a better King than Robert (he didn't rape his wife, he didn't burn people, he kept himself groomed, etc.)

So my main point is that Robert is certainly on the madness spectrum, based on his violent outbursts towards people who certainly aren't his enemy (though Cersei would eventually be) and his insistence that all people who had were related to Aerys or Rhaegar had to die to the point of ranting about dragon spawn, despite not having any role in their deeds.

If that doesn't sound like madness to you, there's no point in trying to convince you.

Considering how many people don't see madness where you're pointing, the problem might not be on my side.  

[The Sunland Lord]

13 hours ago, Lollygag said:

The OP's perception of madness is an atypical definition of madness which isn't shared by most. While Westeros is a fantasy world, GRRM is a modern fella and crimes involving rape, taking out rivals, and being very angry do not in themselves qualify for insanity pleas in a court of law. I'm no lawyer, but it's my understanding that the insanity plea is based on the predominant views of modern psychology and psychiatry.

This.

Rape is a crime, and you go to jail for that, not in a mental institution. No one claims he is insane in court after such an act since it wouldn't work.