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Would Walder betray Robb without Roose and vice versa?


Kandrax

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52 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Title.

Walder Frey would betray Robb even without cooperation from Roose Bolton.  Walder Frey would not betray Robb without the ok from Tywin Lannister.  Tywin's approval is the important part of the equation because Tywin speaks for the king.  

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When you say ". . . and vice versa," do you mean would Robb betray Walder without Roose?

Would Walder betray Roose without Robb?

Would Roose betray both Walder and Robb?

Would Robb betray Roose with a side order of Walder?

What if bread and salt were not part of the equation?

If so, I would say, "Yes. He would."

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9 minutes ago, Seams said:

When you say ". . . and vice versa," do you mean would Robb betray Walder without Roose?

Would Walder betray Roose without Robb?

Would Roose betray both Walder and Robb?

Would Robb betray Roose with a side order of Walder?

What if bread and salt were not part of the equation?

If so, I would say, "Yes. He would."

Hmmm methinks the vice versa means “would Roose betray Robb without Walder”? 

I’d say “definitely, since he already was doing exactly that”. Roose had been sawing the legs from under Robb’s throne since aGoT. He was going to use any opportunity for outright betrayal when it presented itself.

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10 minutes ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Yes for Roose  . There is a long history of animosity between the Starks and the Boltons.

Totally agree with this. What we are seeing now is a long running issue between Stark and Bolton coming to a head. 

10 minutes ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

No for Walder , The Freys would need somebody to save them from a vengeful north like the Boltons and especially the Lannisters .

Maybe. GRRM made a comment that, #1 he is not a fan of “what if” scenarios, but when you get past that he essentially says that Walder was ready to bolt (betray) as soon as the going got tough. The same reason why in the beginning Walder lags behind when called, hence “Late Lord Frey”. 

And GRRM also comments that essentially  Roose was not truly loyal one way or another from the start. As many of us here have mentioned in threads’ past. 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1116

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12 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Title.

Yes. The way things were going many of the Riverland and quite a few of the Northern lords would have betrayed Robb. He was in a pretty poor situation and was not willing to compromise. 

 

Now the Red Wedding would not have happened without Roose as Roose ensured that Robb only had 3,500 men and was against around double that. Without Roose Robb has around 10k Northern, the Red Wedding would have been a bloodbath and even if the Frey's won it would have weakened them significantly in being able to defend themselves. 

 

Roose is needed for the Red Wedding, it is likely that it was Roose, rather than Walder or Tywin, who insisted on it given the Red Wedding benefits him more than it does the other two. 

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4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yes. The way things were going many of the Riverland and quite a few of the Northern lords would have betrayed Robb. He was in a pretty poor situation and was not willing to compromise. 

 

Now the Red Wedding would not have happened without Roose as Roose ensured that Robb only had 3,500 men and was against around double that. Without Roose Robb has around 10k Northern, the Red Wedding would have been a bloodbath and even if the Frey's won it would have weakened them significantly in being able to defend themselves. 

 

Roose is needed for the Red Wedding, it is likely that it was Roose, rather than Walder or Tywin, who insisted on it given the Red Wedding benefits him more than it does the other two. 

Believe it was Lord Walders idea-Roose merely helped planned on how to do it with one of lord Walder's sons. So how big a betrayl do you figure? Turn heel in a important battle, betrayl or straight up abandonment betrayl(I.e refuse the calls for more troops), betrayl? I imagine if anything the former.

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Walder would betray Robb without Roose.  What he wouldn't do is betray anyone without Tywin.

Roose is not particularly important to Walder.  He doesn't have the ability to protect him from the Iron Throne, or Northern vengeance, or anything.  Tywin does.  

Whether Tywin would arrange for the Red Wedding without Roose is another story.  Roose is crucial to him quelling and regaining the North; he knows he can't do it without Northern support.

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I don't think the Red Wedding would have happened without the Bolton-Frey conspiracy. But Roose began betraying Robb immediately after Stannis lost the Battle of the Blackwater, when he dispatched Glover and Tallhart to Duskendale. He did that before he knew that Walder knew of Robb's marriage to Jeyne. And I think the conclusion that Roose gave Ramsey the go-ahead to move on Hornwood and then Winterfell is inescapable. 

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Put me down for Roose betraying Robb at the earliest chance of success in doing so  regardless of anyone else's involvement.

Walder betrayed Robb only because he had the backing/support of Tywin Lannister.  I'm not sure why he would have betrayed Robb solely with a partnership w/Roose Bolton, he couldn't expect any better of a deal from Roose than he got w/Robb, worse probably.  Without Tywin whispering in his ear he probably would have sucked it up and been happy with marriages Robb offered as compensation.

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6 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Believe it was Lord Walders idea-Roose merely helped planned on how to do it with one of lord Walder's sons.

No, we are told that Roose and Lame Lothar plotted it. Walder simply ordered the rest of the family and vassals to comply. 

6 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

So how big a betrayl do you figure?  Turn heel in a important battle, betrayl or straight up abandonment betrayl(I.e refuse the calls for more troops), betrayl? I imagine if anything the former.

Simply renounce their support. Likely after first trying to convince Robb that his cause was a losing one. We see this at Harrenhal

Ser Harys Haigh, who was a Frey on his mother's side, nodded vigorously. "If Lord Tywin could defeat a seasoned man like Stannis Baratheon, what chance will our boy king have against him?" He looked round to his brothers and cousins for support, and several of them muttered agreement.
"Someone must have the courage to say it," Ser Hosteen said. "The war is lost. King Robb must be made to see that."

I imagine that Robb would have been refused support to retake his homeland and also refused to allow him to cross their bridge forcing him to face battle at the Trident, with the Freys with the Royal army. This is the meaning I get from GRRM's words on the matter

 knowing old Lord Walder's character, it is likely he would have searched for some way to disentangle himself from a losing cause sooner or later, but his desertion would likely have taken a less savage form. The Red Wedding was motivated by his desire to wash out the dishonor that was done him...

 

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53 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I imagine that Robb would have been refused support to retake his homeland and also refused to allow him to cross their bridge forcing him to face battle at the Trident, with the Freys with the Royal army. This is the meaning I get from GRRM's words on the matter

 knowing old Lord Walder's character, it is likely he would have searched for some way to disentangle himself from a losing cause sooner or later, but his desertion would likely have taken a less savage form. The Red Wedding was motivated by his desire to wash out the dishonor that was done him...

That's how I always assumed it would go for the most part. No need for them to be involved at the hypothetical battle either. Walder could have sent soldiers and cavalry to hookup with Gregor behind the northern army and cut off their retreat, a la what Gregor did at Duskendale. Frankly the Freys didn't even need to do that. Refusing Robb's army (with or without Roose) a crossing over the Trident, they have to march south and there is no way they make it back north as anything other than shattered, broken men.

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