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UK Politics: The Beast From The East


Hereward

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2 hours ago, mankytoes said:

For me to respond, you've got to tell me what lies you're referring to. You've given one example, it was a good one, but it was by someone acting as a journalist, not a current member of a government.

I gave you a series of examples by someone who used to be a journalist, is now a member of the government, famously spent the campaign lying his backside off and what's he doing now? Oh yeah he's the Foreign Secretary.

(En passant, he's apparently gone full Godwin on Putin now.)

If you're asking me to provide a lengthy list of shit the press and politicians have lied about because you're claiming somehow to be ignorant of it, sorry. I'm also not going to list the days of the week. Go read any edition of the Sun, the Express, the Mail, any speech by Gove et al, any Leave leaflet published in the referendum. This is basic stuff, and as noted I simply do not believe that you're unaware of it.

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3 minutes ago, mormont said:

I gave you a series of examples by someone who used to be a journalist, is now a member of the government, famously spent the campaign lying his backside off and what's he doing now? Oh yeah he's the Foreign Secretary.

(En passant, he's apparently gone full Godwin on Putin now.)

If you're asking me to provide a lengthy list of shit the press and politicians have lied about because you're claiming somehow to be ignorant of it, sorry. I'm also not going to list the days of the week. Go read any edition of the Sun, the Express, the Mail, any speech by Gove et al, any Leave leaflet published in the referendum. This is basic stuff, and as noted I simply do not believe that you're unaware of it.

Don't fucking start me on that. Considering the amount of Russians killed by the Nazis... he's totally unfit for that office. Yes, Mr Putin is a gangster-leader, but he hasn't insulted Putin, he's insulted every regular Russian.

I know it's politically difficult, but I really think May needs to get shot. Most voters will back her. It's a risk, but she's in a shit situation, and Boris is making it an impossible one.

No, one example meeting my criteria would be fine. To be clear, I'm not saying these examples don't exist, but you're asking me what I think about them. Your question is too vague. If you don't want to, no problem.

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5 hours ago, mankytoes said:

But all UK governments since the EU was formed have been broadly pro EU. So those lies have also been on that side. 

 

I don't know if it was intended to be a lie, but it was certainly a huge piece of bad faith, that Tony Blair in Labour's 2005 Manifesto, promised that the public would get to vote on the EU Constitution, in a referendum, but Gordon Brown subsequently reneged on that promise.  It was one of those cunning plans that would end up backfiring in the long run,

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22 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

 he's insulted every regular Russian.

 


He really hasn't.

I hate to agree with Boris, but (1) he didn't do the Godwining anyway, it was the chap he was talking to (Labour MP Ian Austin) and (2) neither of them said Putin is like Hitler. What they said was he will use the World Cup like Hitler used the Olympics, as a glory boost. Which he will.

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The tabloid press (like the public) were once very pro-EU, and overwhelmingly backed EU membership in 1975, and in the 1983 general election, when Labour were committed to pulling out.  People aged 18-40 voted overwhelmingly for Remain in 1975, but the same people, 41 years later, now in late middle age or old age, voted to Leave. So, it does seem fair to ask what the EU did to alienate a previously very supportive section of the population.  IMHO, it was the relentless drive to integrate politically that turned supporters against the organisation.

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1 hour ago, mankytoes said:

Don't fucking start me on that. Considering the amount of Russians killed by the Nazis... he's totally unfit for that office. Yes, Mr Putin is a gangster-leader, but he hasn't insulted Putin, he's insulted every regular Russian.

I know it's politically difficult, but I really think May needs to get shot. Most voters will back her. It's a risk, but she's in a shit situation, and Boris is making it an impossible one.

No, one example meeting my criteria would be fine. To be clear, I'm not saying these examples don't exist, but you're asking me what I think about them. Your question is too vague. If you don't want to, no problem.

Gee, I was reading about that woman from the Russian foreign ministry complaining how unfair the comparison was, and it made me think of the 20,000 Polish officers shot by the Russians in the Katyn forest, a fact they denied for decades, blaming the Germans. I don’t recall the Germans rounding up say, 20,000 French officers at the start of the war and executing them and burying them in mass graves. And then there’s the deaths in the concentration camps. But a decade before there were 10 million Ukrainians who starved to death when farms were collectivized. And what is the German equivalent to the gulag?

I think it’s Germans being unfairly compared to Russians, perhaps.

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1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

 


He really hasn't.

I hate to agree with Boris, but (1) he didn't do the Godwining anyway, it was the chap he was talking to (Labour MP Ian Austin) and (2) neither of them said Putin is like Hitler. What they said was he will use the World Cup like Hitler used the Olympics, as a glory boost. Which he will.

You mean how pretty much every politician uses every major sporting event in their city/country? Like Boris did with the Olympics?

Come on, no one really thinks that they thought the only way to express that point was to mention Hitler. They did that knowing exactly what associations they are forming in people's minds.

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

The tabloid press (like the public) were once very pro-EU, and overwhelmingly backed EU membership in 1975, and in the 1983 general election, when Labour were committed to pulling out.  People aged 18-40 voted overwhelmingly for Remain in 1975, but the same people, 41 years later, now in late middle age or old age, voted to Leave. So, it does seem fair to ask what the EU did to alienate a previously very supportive section of the population.  IMHO, it was the relentless drive to integrate politically that turned supporters against the organisation.

To me, anyway, it's important that you're talking about the EEC, not the EU. The EU was founded in 1993. A European trading block is something I think is a good idea. A European political system is something I think is a bad idea.

25 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

Gee, I was reading about that woman from the Russian foreign ministry complaining how unfair the comparison was, and it made me think of the 20,000 Polish officers shot by the Russians in the Katyn forest, a fact they denied for decades, blaming the Germans. I don’t recall the Germans rounding up say, 20,000 French officers at the start of the war and executing them and burying them in mass graves. And then there’s the deaths in the concentration camps. But a decade before there were 10 million Ukrainians who starved to death when farms were collectivized. And what is the German equivalent to the gulag?

I think it’s Germans being unfairly compared to Russians, perhaps.

I'm a bit unclear of your point, because they compared Putin to Hitler, they didn't compare Stalin to Hitler. Most people outside Russia acknowledge that Stalin is on Hitler's level of evil. What they should also understand is that without the millions of Russians giving up their lives, we might well have lost the war, and I wouldn't have even been born, like millions of others.

This isn't a defense of Stalinism. Boris is supposed to be leading our diplomatic service. He's blundering around moronically, increasing interntional tensions while trying to promote his own celebrity.

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5 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

I'm a bit unclear of your point, because they compared Putin to Hitler, they didn't compare Stalin to Hitler. Most people outside Russia acknowledge that Stalin is on Hitler's level of evil. What they should also understand is that without the millions of Russians giving up their lives, we might well have lost the war, and I wouldn't have even been born, like millions of others.

This isn't a defense of Stalinism. Boris is supposed to be leading our diplomatic service. He's blundering around moronically, increasing interntional tensions while trying to promote his own celebrity.

Meh, it's actually a bit of a mug's game to make comparisons. But the story I saw on the internet made me laugh out loud about it being unfair to compare Russians to Germans. Cuz Russians haven't slaughtered millions.

Yes millions of Russians died in WW II. Part of the reason was because lives were cheap. Stalin did throw a lot of bodies at German forces. It doesn't take anything away from their sacrifice to comment about those killed by Russians.

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I don't know if it was intended to be a lie, but it was certainly a huge piece of bad faith, that Tony Blair in Labour's 2005 Manifesto, promised that the public would get to vote on the EU Constitution, in a referendum, but Gordon Brown subsequently reneged on that promise.  It was one of those cunning plans that would end up backfiring in the long run,

You mean the constitution that was dead already because the French and Dutch had both voted No in their referendums, thus making it pointless for us to have one?

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1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

He really hasn't.

I hate to agree with Boris, but (1) he didn't do the Godwining anyway, it was the chap he was talking to (Labour MP Ian Austin) and (2) neither of them said Putin is like Hitler. What they said was he will use the World Cup like Hitler used the Olympics, as a glory boost. Which he will.

:rolleyes: Sure, and of all the possible things to say the guy chose to use Hitler. But not because he wants to compare Putin to Hitler, mind you. It's just handy to use that particular example, ya know. No ulterior motive, I swear.

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2 minutes ago, Mr Fixit said:

:rolleyes: Sure, and of all the possible things to say the guy chose to use Hitler. But not because he wants to compare Putin to Hitler, mind you. It's just handy to use that particular example, ya know. No ulterior motive, I swear.



Hitler is the most obvious example of a dictator using a world sporting event to boost his image. The point could have been made without it, and might have been better off that way, but reaching for it when you're trying to make that point really doesn't need some nefarious plotting or indicate any kind of forethought.

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1 hour ago, Fragile Bird said:

Gee, I was reading about that woman from the Russian foreign ministry complaining how unfair the comparison was, and it made me think of the 20,000 Polish officers shot by the Russians in the Katyn forest, a fact they denied for decades, blaming the Germans. I don’t recall the Germans rounding up say, 20,000 French officers at the start of the war and executing them and burying them in mass graves. And then there’s the deaths in the concentration camps. But a decade before there were 10 million Ukrainians who starved to death when farms were collectivized. And what is the German equivalent to the gulag?

You really want to go there? Interesting choice of arguing technique...

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14 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Hitler is the most obvious example of a dictator using a world sporting event to boost his image. The point could have been made without it, and might have been better off that way, but reaching for it when you're trying to make that point really doesn't need some nefarious plotting or indicate any kind of forethought.

Of course it does. You know it, I know it, little Joe in the corner knows it. Johnson (and he's far from the first) wants to liken Putin to Hitler, and not only because of the whatever sport event we're talking about. That's not only hyperbolic in the extreme -- thankfully, Putin hasn't opened concentration camps and instituted racial policies yet -- but also very disrespectful toward real Nazi victims. I'm not talking just about 25+ millions Soviet citizens killed, but also about everyone else. How do you think Jewish survivors of the Holocaust feel every time some moron compares the current World Threat Number One(TM) to Hitler? I can think of at least four Hitlers in the last 15-20 years gracing the lurid self-congratulatory headlines of certain media outlets.

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8 minutes ago, Mr Fixit said:

Of course it does. You know it, I know it, little Joe in the corner knows it. Johnson (and he's far from the first) wants to liken Putin to Hitler, and not only because of the whatever sport event we're talking about. That's not only hyperbolic in the extreme -- thankfully, Putin hasn't opened concentration camps and instituted racial policies yet -- but also very disrespectful toward real Nazi victims. I'm not talking just about 25+ millions Soviet citizens killed, but also about everyone else. How do you think Jewish survivors of the Holocaust feel every time some moron compares the current World Threat Number One(TM) to Hitler? I can think of at least four Hitlers in the last 15-20 years gracing the lurid self-congratulatory headlines of certain media outlets.



Given that I'm Polish, I don't actually need a lecture on holocaust survivors, but thanks.

And no, it really fucking doesn't. If you think it's impossible to refer to Hitler without previously going 'hmmm I am going to make this reference on purpose to damage someone' then I really don't know what to say to you. Is it possible that that's what happened? Sure. Do I think Austin went into the meeting going 'hmmm what comparison can I make that'll cause the loudest international incident'? I really fucking doubt it. Like I say, it's the obvious comparison when you're talking about that use of sporting events.

In any case, when your state commits chemical attacks on other people's soil, in my view you lose any right you had to complain about them calling you names, and if you don't want to be compared to history's most famous dictator, don't be a fucking dictator. Not every Hitler comparison is about the very worst things Hitler did, unless you think anyone who calls their boss a 'little Hitler' is accusing them of genocide. He's a shorthand for totalitarianism overall.
 

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3 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Not every Hitler comparison is about the very worst things Hitler did

Of course it is. When used by a prominent politician, talking about a serious political matter, especially given the current geopolitical climate, it absolutely is. Say Hitler, and Auschwitz, extermination policies, and genocidal total war instantly pop up as primary associations in public consciousness. I am really not clear on why you pretend otherwise. 

Quote

He's a shorthand for totalitarianism overall

He's really not. There have been many, many dictators, autocrats and totalitarian leaders that we have to be careful to compare to Hitler as some kind of shorthand. Even going back to WW2 era, was Mussolini like Hitler? How about Franco? Petain or Quisling? Shall we talk about Saddam Hitler, Assad Hitler, and countless other little Hitlers (maybe current Saudi leadership wrt Yemen)? Pinochet Hitler, Salazar Hitler, Calero Hitler and Chamorro Hitler, and on and on and on. It's silly, counterproductive and ultimately meaningless.

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1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

Are you comparing Boris to Putin?

Ha, fair play.

1 hour ago, Fragile Bird said:

Meh, it's actually a bit of a mug's game to make comparisons. But the story I saw on the internet made me laugh out loud about it being unfair to compare Russians to Germans. Cuz Russians haven't slaughtered millions.

Yes millions of Russians died in WW II. Part of the reason was because lives were cheap. Stalin did throw a lot of bodies at German forces. It doesn't take anything away from their sacrifice to comment about those killed by Russians.

It's certainly fair to say the Russians are in denial about the brutality of their recent history. But he who is without sin and all that, all nations have their skeletons, we are hardly clean in that regard.

We've had a bad relationship with Russia for so long. I just feel like WW2, this is something we were allies on, this is something we both feel great national pride over, this should be a positive for our relationship.

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Lots of people been saying that the Tories are in bed with Russsians who've given them money.  I've no problem believing it, per se, but here's the part I don't get.  There's no honor among thieves -- or among the corrupt.  You pay me to get an edge in my country's local politics, and that's all very well, but you'd better damn well be sure I won't suffer you to muscle in on my personal strength, i.e. with my countrymen.  If I'm part of the government, and you embarrass us and threaten us on the world stage, you'd better be goddamn sure I'm keeping your money and using it to run for a re-election for the purpose of shitting all over you and your country and embarrassing the fuck out of all of you.  So, why isn't that the Tories' position?  Taking the money from the Russians should make them more pissed, more likely to hit back, and not less.  So ... what am I missing?  What is their problem?

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