Are the extended seasons evidence of time loops?

[Melifeather]

9 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Tyrion suggested one of the tormented souls was manifested in a huge stone hand reaching from the water with the tops of two fingers rising above the surface. Was this a natural object that looked like a hand or was it a submerged sculpture? And was there some hint in the object being a hand rather than a head or a sword or something else?

The huge stone hand is symbolic of the position of Hand of the King. If Tyrion stayed with Young Griff, would the position eventually be offered and would it drag him down?

9 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

According to legend, Garin a prince of the Rhoynish, had led a huge army against the Valyrians at Chroyane, but they defeated his army and captured him and hung him in a golden cage. He called on the great river to destroy them. The river rose and drowned the invaders. The legend suggested that the Valyrian corpses under the water cause the fog, and that a reincarnated Garin leads the stone men as the Shrouded Lord. And Ysilla suggests that the Valyrian corpses walk among the stone men. The current Shrouded Lord was a corsair from the Basilisk Isles, whose native inhabitants have dark skin.

I'm glad we're discussing Garin, because he is a historical figure that Jaime seems to mirror. Mirroring is what I call the actions current people are taking that are like someone from the past on the history wheel. It's not exactly the same, because it's a mirrored reflection. 

Jaime is famous far and wide for being the Kingslayer. He too is connected to using water as a weapon if we take into consideration his father’s use of water to destroy the Reynes of Castamere. His sibling twin, Cersei, presumably drowned her friend Melara in a well. It also seems possible that their ancestor, Lann the Clever, drowned the Casterlys in order to take the Rock. Garin's “golden” cage is also mirrored in Jaime, because of the Lannister's connection to gold and the golden armor "cage" he put on before he slew Aerys II, proving his loyalty is to his father first over his sworn vow to protect the king.

There is a second Garin that was Arianne’s milk brother, and inseparable friends since before they learned to walk. He even says he was named for Garin the Great, "the wonder of the Rhoyne." This Garin was involved in Arianne's plot to abduct Myrcella and crown her, which is part of the abducted maiden event.

Arianne and Garin mirror Cersei and Jaime in many ways. The most obvious are that the two women are their father's eldest child and would inherit their family homes if they were male. Arianne believed her father meant to offer his inheritance to her younger brother, and Cersei, who was born with Jaime holding her heel, has been driven by resentment her whole life that her father meant to leave the Rock to Jaime. 
 

9 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

After the stone hand and a few more landmarks, they encountered another boat called the Kingfisher. Was there a hint in that name?

Yes, Tyrion is very much a fisher of kings, or maybe now a queen.

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

@Feather Crystal In case you are still on this topic, have you considered time windows instead of time loops? It may not affect the story in the way you think but rather explain how these wonky seasons came about.

I got the idea from watching video summaries of 1000 worlds books by GRRM. I don't think most of these titles are in print, so I don't have the books, but there's this YouTube channel called Preston Jacobs that do summary analyses of GRRM's earlier works.A good majority of themes that appear in AWOIAF appears in 1000 worlds. 

Anyway, in one story, (Manna from Heaven? Override? I'm not sure), the protag goes into a place very much like the House of the Undying. Instead of glimpsing past, present or future events, he instead gets sneak peeks into other worlds through door portals. He keeps opening doors and seeing all these fantastic worlds, exploring. But unlike Dany, he doesn't get out. He's stuck inside, forever travelling for possibly millions of years (this story is actually a metaphor for escapism). 

The point of that story is that the "visions" Dany sees in the Palace of Dust may have been created by opening time windows. Throughout the story, we see characters that get cryptic prophetic visions. It's so common it's not even that special in this world. And people don't even have to do particular types of magic. Dany, for example, sees future events in her dreams, like waking of the dragons. 

My theory is that, what if this seemingly common ability is the most peculiar thing about this world? What if it's connected to what's going on with the irregular seasons, Long Night, and the Others?

There are several other stories in 1000s worlds books where sacrifice plays a role. People make weird sacrifices to alien gods and artifacts that they barely understand. These artifacts/gods are so old, even the contemporary aliens in these planets don't understand them. In return for sacrifices, the person making the sacrifice gets a magical gift, such as the ability to go through dimensional portals (Stone City).These are incredible powers of course. 

In AWOIAF, there's the story about the god-emperors of Yi Ti, which is probably where this Long Night thing started. The Bloodstone emperor stars worshiping a  stone that has fallen from the sky (possibly a meteor or maybe even an alien artifact). He kills his kin the amethyst empress and stars performing horrible sacrificial rituals for the stone. Something goes wrong here, and it's possibly what's causing the long night. 

What if this alien stone gifts the emperor/people the ability to see through time and space in return for sacrifices? It would be an incredible power, something that a person can easily get addicted to, like the protag who gets lost in the portal house or the stone city, forever looking into fantastical worlds. But GRRM has said that magic has consequences, and when people get the ability to see into the future (the visions), there may have been natural consequences where the whole world gets stuck in a wonky timeline, resulting in the insane seasons. 

There's also the Shadow, where no one knows what's going on or went there. Messing with magical or alien artifacts that people don't really understand may have resulted in the cataclysm that causes the seasons to go awry. The point is, maybe this world isn't stuck in the time loop per se, but there may be something disrupting the manner in which the past and the future are seen (bending time and space?). 

I'm not sure if I articulated this correctly.

[Melifeather]

15 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

@Feather Crystal In case you are still on this topic, have you considered time windows instead of time loops? It may not affect the story in the way you think but rather explain how these wonky seasons came about.

I got the idea from watching video summaries of 1000 worlds books by GRRM. I don't think most of these titles are in print, so I don't have the books, but there's this YouTube channel called Preston Jacobs that do summary analyses of GRRM's earlier works.A good majority of themes that appear in AWOIAF appears in 1000 worlds. 

Anyway, in one story, (Manna from Heaven? Override? I'm not sure), the protag goes into a place very much like the House of the Undying. Instead of glimpsing past, present or future events, he instead gets sneak peeks into other worlds through door portals. He keeps opening doors and seeing all these fantastic worlds, exploring. But unlike Dany, he doesn't get out. He's stuck inside, forever travelling for possibly millions of years (this story is actually a metaphor for escapism). 

The point of that story is that the "visions" Dany sees in the Palace of Dust may have been created by opening time windows. Throughout the story, we see characters that get cryptic prophetic visions. It's so common it's not even that special in this world. And people don't even have to do particular types of magic. Dany, for example, sees future events in her dreams, like waking of the dragons. 

My theory is that, what if this seemingly common ability is the most peculiar thing about this world? What if it's connected to what's going on with the irregular seasons, Long Night, and the Others?

There are several other stories in 1000s worlds books where sacrifice plays a role. People make weird sacrifices to alien gods and artifacts that they barely understand. These artifacts/gods are so old, even the contemporary aliens in these planets don't understand them. In return for sacrifices, the person making the sacrifice gets a magical gift, such as the ability to go through dimensional portals (Stone City).These are incredible powers of course. 

In AWOIAF, there's the story about the god-emperors of Yi Ti, which is probably where this Long Night thing started. The Bloodstone emperor stars worshiping a  stone that has fallen from the sky (possibly a meteor or maybe even an alien artifact). He kills his kin the amethyst empress and stars performing horrible sacrificial rituals for the stone. Something goes wrong here, and it's possibly what's causing the long night. 

What if this alien stone gifts the emperor/people the ability to see through time and space in return for sacrifices? It would be an incredible power, something that a person can easily get addicted to, like the protag who gets lost in the portal house or the stone city, forever looking into fantastical worlds. But GRRM has said that magic has consequences, and when people get the ability to see into the future (the visions), there may have been natural consequences where the whole world gets stuck in a wonky timeline, resulting in the insane seasons. 

There's also the Shadow, where no one knows what's going on or went there. Messing with magical or alien artifacts that people don't really understand may have resulted in the cataclysm that causes the seasons to go awry. The point is, maybe this world isn't stuck in the time loop per se, but there may be something disrupting the manner in which the past and the future are seen (bending time and space?). 

I'm not sure if I articulated this correctly.

I really enjoyed your post, because you realize that GRRM recycles his favorite ideas and puts spins on them, and I like the idea that Dany opened these time portals, but I don't think she's the cause, because there are too many other historical events that have repeated other than those viewed by Dany.

I was just discussing blood sacrifice on another thread that I will share here. It all goes back to Durran Godsgrief, the first lord of Storm's End, and his marriage to Elenei, which I suspect wasn't an actual marriage to an actual woman. I believe Elenei was a moon maiden. In other words she's magic itself...the very first instance in Westeros where man was able to work ice magic.

First a foundational thought. The Children of the Forest believe the earth Planetos is a sister moon to the moon in the sky (Nissa Nissa). Magic is called a "moon maiden", because a women's menstrual cycle roughly coincides with moon cycles, but its actually the blood that's important.

Recall that when Durran got his moon maiden, Elenei, all his wedding guests were killed. I theorize that his guests were Children of the Forest, and it was their blood that seeded the magic and enabled him to combine the elements of water and air to create magic. Elenei was said to be a deity herself and daughter to the sea god and goddess of the wind. Those are references to the Drowned God and Storm God of the Ironborn. The story further elaborates that when Durran took Elenei's maidenhead she became "mortal". In other words, when Durran "seeded" the "marriage" (read: spell that combined elements) with (moon's) blood - the blood of sacrificed Children - he successfully obtained Elenei (magic).

With this explanation we can read the story of the Nights King in a new way. The Lord Commander spied an Other north of the Wall, at least this is how the story begins, but what he really saw was a Child of the Forest. He chased it, captured it, and then sacrificed it, thus "seeding" the "marriage" - in other words the blood of the sacrificed Child was the "seed" that allowed the magic spell to work, and he was able to combine water and air to work ice magic aka, capturing his magical "moon maiden". 

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

14 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I really enjoyed your post, because you realize that GRRM recycles his favorite ideas and puts spins on them, and I like the idea that Dany opened these time portals, but I don't think she's the cause, because there are too many other historical events that have repeated other than those viewed by Dany.

I'm not saying Dany opened these time windows. It's probably the power of the pale, worm-like thing the Undying worship. I'm saying that the Bloodstone emperor's many sacrifices to the stone may have resulted in people gaining this ability. That's why there are people all over the world who can see into the future. And we know people start from a single community and then spread all over an area. 

Sacrifice, particularly kin sacrifice, does seem to be the root cause of pretty much all magic we know. The fire magic, the people fed to weirwoods, and Craster gains protection by sacrificing his sons to the Others. Azhor Ahai gains Lightbringer by sacrificing his wife and love. It goes on and on, regardless of the intentions. There are a lot more sacrifices in the Essos chapters in AWOIAF, like for the Black Goat and all that. 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

I'm not saying Dany opened these time windows. It's probably the power of the pale, worm-like thing the Undying worship. I'm saying that the Bloodstone emperor's many sacrifices to the stone may have resulted in people gaining this ability. That's why there are people all over the world who can see into the future. And we know people start from a single community and then spread all over an area. 

Sacrifice, particularly kin sacrifice, does seem to be the root cause of pretty much all magic we know. The fire magic, the people fed to weirwoods, and Craster gains protection by sacrificing his sons to the Others. Azhor Ahai gains Lightbringer by sacrificing his wife and love. It goes on and on, regardless of the intentions. There are a lot more sacrifices in the Essos chapters in AWOIAF, like for the Black Goat and all that. 

Human sacrifice is required to work fire magic. That is how Dany was able to hatch dragons. The blood of humans germinates...it's the "seed" that makes the magic spell work when combining the two elements of earth and fire.

Ice magic on the other hand requires the blood of Children (of the Forest) to "seed" the elements of water and air.

I haven't quite figured out Craster's deal yet, but I think he's a red herring. (Craster's kippers and all that) We're meant to suspect that he is giving his children to the Others, but his story is intended to cause us to conclude that child sacrifice is needed when what it really requires is Children with a capital C.

I freely admit that I haven't dug too deeply into the pale, worm-like thing the Undying worship, nor the Bloodstone Emperor's business. If you have more information to share on those topics, I'll read it.

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

11 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I freely admit that I haven't dug too deeply into the pale, worm-like thing the Undying worship, nor the Bloodstone Emperor's business. If you have more information to share on those topics, I'll read it.

The Dawn Empire arc is must-read to understand the Long Night. It's all in the Yi Ti chapters of AWOIAF. 

[LynnS]

The Bridge of Dreams seems to be an example of a time loop when passing beneath the bridge (or portal) returns Tyrion's party to a past event.   The stone men dumped off at the Bridge of Dreams is an allusion to Einstein which means to surround or enclose with stone and an Einsten-Rosen Bridge or wormhole (hat tip to Ravenous Reader for pointing out the connection some time ago).  

This specific location seems to be an anomaly and although the event is rationalized as the strange eddies and currents of the river itself; Bloodraven likens time to a river as well.     

[Melifeather]

6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The Bridge of Dreams seems to be an example of a time loop when passing beneath the bridge (or portal) returns Tyrion's party to a past event.   The stone men dumped off at the Bridge of Dreams is an allusion to Einstein which means to surround or enclose with stone and an Einsten-Rosen Bridge or wormhole (hat tip to Ravenous Reader for pointing out the connection some time ago).  

This specific location seems to be an anomaly and although the event is rationalized as the strange eddies and currents of the river itself; Bloodraven likens time to a river as well.     

I'm not familiar with an Einsten-Rosen Bridge. Are you able to provide a brief explanation?

I like how repeating the passage under the bridge gets a different result than the first time, and its not for the better. In fact its much, much worse....which I think it the point. 

[LynnS]

16 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I'm not familiar with an Einsten-Rosen Bridge. Are you able to provide a brief explanation?

I like how repeating the passage under the bridge gets a different result than the first time, and its not for the better. In fact its much, much worse....which I think it the point. 

I think most people have seen how wormholes work in science-fiction for instantaneous transportation between two points in space or time.  I doubt Martin is using wormholes in this story in that way; but it is curious that he has given us one instance of such an event.  The notion that doors and gateways allow a character to see into the past, present and future or travel from one place to another on the astral plane is interesting.   I'm thinking of the HoU where Dany thinks she has been walking for hours but seems to be gone only a short time.  It's curious that the tunnels beneath the Wall are called wormways and the Wall is essentially an ice bridge.  Comparisons to the Bifrost Bridge have been made and the bi-frost bridge has also been likened to an einstein-rosen bridge.  I'm not sure what Martin is getting at with Tyrion's trip through the Bridge of Dreams but it does seem to be a space/time loop in this one instance.   

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think most people have seen how wormholes work in science-fiction for instantaneous transportation between two points in space or time.  I doubt Martin is using wormholes in this story in that way; but it is curious that he has given us one instance of such an event.  The notion that doors and gateways allow a character to see into the past, present and future or travel from one place to another on the astral plane is interesting.   I'm thinking of the HoU where Dany thinks she has been walking for hours but seems to be gone only a short time.  It's curious that the tunnels beneath the Wall are called wormways and the Wall is essentially an ice bridge.  Comparisons to the Bifrost Bridge have been made and the bi-frost bridge has also been likened to an einstein-rosen bridge.  I'm not sure what Martin is getting at with Tyrion's trip through the Bridge of Dreams but it does seem to be a space/time loop in this one instance.   

If a wormhole has two mouths - one on each end - then the Black Gate is one such mouth. Going through the mouth would be akin to time travel, but did Bran enter the future, or the past? Or was it simply a short-cut?

[LynnS]

6 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

If a wormhole has two mouths - one on each end - then the Black Gate is one such mouth. Going through the mouth would be akin to time travel, but did Bran enter the future, or the past? Or was it simply a short-cut?

Not necessarily time travel but the same gateway accessed at the Wall or the HoU.  Both are hinges to hang the same door.  I think Bran does use the Black Gate when he appears to Jon as Tree-Bran with time sped up to show the sapling tree growing before Jon's eyes.  Another conundrum since Bran has a dream of this while in the crypt before he crosses the wall and is wed to the tree.  In some ways, this is similar to Tyrion passing under the bridge of dreams and ending up in the past re-experiencing the trip through the gate a second time.

[Melifeather]

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Howland spent the winter on the Isle of Faces, but when spring broke he left. This was during the year of the False Spring which means shortly after the Harrenhal tourney winter had returned. It was called the "year" of the False Spring, because spring only lasted one year, and "false", because instead of leading into summer - winter returned. This is a prime example of time being reset, but why? Does Howland’s prayer for a way to “win” have anything to do with this reset? Did Lyanna's abduction happen during winter, or did winter last for a year and then it was finally spring before she went missing?

The more I think about Howland's prayer for "a way to win", the more I suspect it has nothing to do with becoming a knight and getting revenge on the squires and more that this story is an allegory for something bigger? If it is an allegory, who is he praying for to win? I'm assuming since Howland was on the Isle of Faces and that the crannogmen are closer to the children of the forest, then they are the side he's praying for. Would the children still adhere to the Pact and keep faith with their allies the First Men?

The time loops must be the mechanism being used as "a way to win". The variable lengths of seasons are evidence that an attempt is being made to slow the progression of time. It would also appear that these time loops are now working in reverse. The timeline of major events are occurring in reverse. Is Howland trying to return to a time where the children believe they made a huge mistake? In effect, is this one big "do over"?