Politics stark robb

[Sourjapes]

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

"Yes. Jason Mallister captured him in the Whispering Wood and has been holding him at Seagard for ransom. Of course I'll free him now, though he may not wish to join me. We wed without his consent, I fear, and this marriage puts him in dire peril. The Crag is not strong. For love of me, Jeyne may lose all."

 

 

 

My memory is fading then. I stand corrected. Well, that just makes Robb look a little worse. Sympathetic, but yeah, he was not making his situation any better.

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

Robb's team had problems from the start.  He's the biggest problem.  The people who make up the team had each their own agendas.  Catelyn wanted to get her daughters back and gave up the war's most valuable POW to get them back.  Roose was working against Robb.  Robb screwed over his most valuable ally, Walder Frey.

Robb followed his heart instead of his head.  He chose to break his oath for the love of Jeyne Westerling.  I can't really blame Walder and the Freys for getting upset.

Catelyn knew the value of the Kingslayer and still she lets him go.  This undermined Robb's authority and lost them bargaining power.

I would argue that it's not for lack of political skills but rather a lack of self-discipline and too much selfishness on the parts of Robb and Cat.

[Big P]

War is serious and deadly, soldiers need to know their leaders are in it for keeps.

Every team has people in it that aren't reading from the same page.  Team Direwolf is not alone in this.  Jon was not on the same page as the NW and got them involved in his personal feud with the Boltons.  Robb and Catelyn let their bannermen and allies down.  The Freys were in it for Robb's promise.  Brown Ben switched sides because in his mind Dany was holding back from winning the war.  Ben was in it to make easy gold before he got old.   

[The Commentator]

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

You freed him without my knowledge or consent . . . but what you did, I know you did for love. For Arya and Sansa, and out of grief for Bran and Rickon. Love's not always wise, I've learned. It can lead us to great folly, but we follow our hearts . . . wherever they take us. Don't we, Mother?"

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"I have. I know what it is to love so greatly you can think of nothing else."

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"All men should keep their word, kings most of all. I was pledged to marry one of you and I broke that vow. The fault is not in you. What I did was not done to slight you, but because I loved another. 

 

Robb's pretty clear he married Jeyne because he loved her, he is even intelligent enough to realise the potential consequences of such love

"Yes. Jason Mallister captured him in the Whispering Wood and has been holding him at Seagard for ransom. Of course I'll free him now, though he may not wish to join me. We wed without his consent, I fear, and this marriage puts him in dire peril. The Crag is not strong. For love of me, Jeyne may lose all."

 

 

 

People who give in to their passions instead of doing what is right are severely punished.  Love doesn't always lead to good.  Best to think with your head instead of your heart.  We have talked endlessly on this forum about the need for a potential ruler to be somewhat detached and not too attached with a particular family that they rule over.  It makes sense.  

[The Commentator]

4 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

I would argue that it's not for lack of political skills but rather a lack of self-discipline and too much selfishness on the parts of Robb and Cat.

Those should never be in a position to rule.  

[cpg2016]

On 3/14/2018 at 1:41 PM, Lord Lannister said:

He was raised to value honor and integrity when politics is based on manipulation and deceit. Couple this with the fact that he's young and impulsive and he wasn't exactly set up to be successful. In the first novel he even admitted a cold and calculating commander is often the best. Well it's the same with politics and Robb was unable to see how intertwined war and politics were.

This is ridiculous.  Politics can be based on a lot of things.  Ned Stark based his politics on honor and integrity, and because of that, his vassals are fighting to death, on behalf of a total stranger, to uphold his legacy.  That's both in-story and in real life.

Robb is an excellent politician, as we see again and again.  Catelyn calls it out in the text, as he is handling his vassals extremely well, showing favor to all of them equally, not being cowed by either their threats or enticements.  He fails because everything that can go wrong does; this is GRRM's finger on the scales.

[Nowy Tends]

12 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

 his vassals are fighting to death, on behalf of a total stranger, to uphold his legacy.  That's both in-story and in real life.

Not in real life; the feudal system was based on a "cascade" of person-to-person loyalty relations…

[cpg2016]

3 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

Not in real life; the feudal system was based on a "cascade" of person-to-person loyalty relations…

Yes, I'm aware.  What's the point your making?  The mountain clans are fighting for Stannis Baratheon, but solely to rescue Ned Stark's daughter.  In other words, they have no feudal relationship with Stannis, but on the basis of the way Ned Stark treated his vassals and the principles by which he lived (and died), they're supporting a "foreign" king in a campaign to retake Winterfell from a Northern House.

My point about in-story and IRL politics is that being honorable and honest is a very viable method of conducting yourself as a politician.  Lord Lannister's statement that politics is a business of deceit and manipulation is incredibly wrong, incredibly shortsighted, and refuted in the text and in examples from real life.  To take an example from American politics, the consensus best President in history is "Honest Abe" Lincoln - obviously some of that is self-managed image making, but the point is that his political career was built on a reputation for honesty and integrity.  Indeed, most "dishonest" politicians find themselves on the losing end of historical analysis.  Lyndon Johnson was one of the most successful "politicians" of his time, but his legacy has suffered because of the way he conducted himself.

Likewise, in the story, we see that the characters who act in good faith and treat others with honesty and respect tend to be vindicated, while those who act in dishonest, manipulative, or otherwise negative ways find themselves or their legacies being cast aside.  Case in point - Tywin Lannister, for all that he was feared and maybe even respected in his lifetime, has everything he worked to build fall apart, almost entirely because of his own actions.  Indeed, he literally begins rotting the moment he dies.  House Lannister is on the verge of collapse, because no one trusts them and because Tywin didn't bother to care for his children or instill in them a sense of honor, or duty, or treat them as anything but extensions of his own ego.

[Nowy Tends]

22 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Yes, I'm aware.  What's the point your making? 

No point, actually I misread your post (with which I agree).

[Sourjapes]

4 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

 To take an example from American politics, the consensus best President in history is "Honest Abe" Lincoln - obviously some of that is self-managed image making, but the point is that his political career was built on a reputation for honesty and integrity.  Indeed, most "dishonest" politicians find themselves on the losing end of historical analysis. 

You are a good kid. A reputation for integrity and honesty, especially among the public, is indeed an effective strategy. However behind the scenes successful rulers, people, politicians, leaders, or lords, have to be willing to be pragmatic. Ruthless even, when necessary. Lincoln played a very dirty game indeed. He has great PR lasting through the century and a half after his death, but that PR is not the truth of the man or his success. Even Ned was not above being pragmatic, to a point. He did after all ultimately try to buy the gold cloaks so he could seize Cersei and her children once Robert was dead. He was willing to use Theon Greyjoy as a hostage to get Balon Greyjoy's fleet. His failure was his inability to read all these strangers fast enough and understand their motives and interests. Like with Robb as well, he was also particularly unlucky in several ways.

[Myrish Lace]

Robb was just dealt a very bad hand. He is stuck in the war with the Crown and the Ironborn he didn't start. He can't win this war alone, but he has no allies he can turn to to offset Lannisters, Greyjoys and eventually Wildlings. 

Robb can't win war with Stannis because Stannis has too many enemies and not enough strength to save Robb.

Robb could win the war with Renly, but Renly was eliminated early on.

Robb could try to win the war with post-Renly Tyrells, but Lannisters make much more appealing partner to the Reach compared to Robb.

Aegon and Dany are too far away and too late to the party to save Robb's bacon.

Without allies, Robb is stuck in an unwinnable war. The North is threatened by Ironborn armada and eventually Wildlings. The Riverlands are beset from all sides by the enemy. The North can field around 40000 men under arms, Riverlands - half as many. With that number, Robb must defend half of Westeros - and he doesn't even have ships! He is doomed to either fight his battles piecemeal or to abandon one or two fronts to the enemy. No matter how good of a tactician Robb is, he has no method to offset enemy's advantage. He could cross the Trident here or there, accept or reject the crown - the war was just prolonged agony for Robb since the moment Renly died.

 

[Josette DuPres]

On 3/16/2018 at 2:16 PM, cpg2016 said:

This is ridiculous.  Politics can be based on a lot of things.  Ned Stark based his politics on honor and integrity, and because of that, his vassals are fighting to death, on behalf of a total stranger, to uphold his legacy.  That's both in-story and in real life.

Robb is an excellent politician, as we see again and again.  Catelyn calls it out in the text, as he is handling his vassals extremely well, showing favor to all of them equally, not being cowed by either their threats or enticements.  He fails because everything that can go wrong does; this is GRRM's finger on the scales.

Those things went wrong because he made very bad decisions.  He broke his word to his most powerful ally.  He removed the head of another for something like killing prisoners of war.  Robb was an incompetent.

[Nowy Tends]

32 minutes ago, Josette DuPres said:

Robb was an incompetent.

That's really a poor choice of a word. If he were an incompetent he wouldn't have won these battles against more experienced generals…

And your "prisoners of war" were actually hostages, an even more important status…

[Quoth the raven,]

Robb was not honorable. He was lacking in that department.  He did what he wanted to do instead of what he promised to do.  That is what caused his downfall.  It's not because of some goodness or because he had good qualities that caused his fall like some people are trying to spin.  Robb fell because he was extremely flawed and he crapped on his allies.  

[Nowy Tends]

1 hour ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Robb was not honorable. He was lacking in that department.  

Sure, he should have followed Roose and Walder's example, they know about honor!

[Lord Lannister]

4 hours ago, Josette DuPres said:

Those things went wrong because he made very bad decisions.  He broke his word to his most powerful ally.  He removed the head of another for something like killing prisoners of war.  Robb was an incompetent.

Even without his political blunders, if everything went right for Robb, and on the battlefield almost everything did, Robb was pretty much doomed the moment he let his bannermen crown him. As lord of Winterfell, he had the option of bending the knee at some point and coming to a negotiated truce, as King in the North the the Iron Throne, whoever sits upon it, will seek his destruction without fail.

[cpg2016]

On 3/16/2018 at 10:13 PM, Sourjapes said:

You are a good kid. A reputation for integrity and honesty, especially among the public, is indeed an effective strategy. However behind the scenes successful rulers, people, politicians, leaders, or lords, have to be willing to be pragmatic. Ruthless even, when necessary. Lincoln played a very dirty game indeed. He has great PR lasting through the century and a half after his death, but that PR is not the truth of the man or his success. Even Ned was not above being pragmatic, to a point. He did after all ultimately try to buy the gold cloaks so he could seize Cersei and her children once Robert was dead. He was willing to use Theon Greyjoy as a hostage to get Balon Greyjoy's fleet. His failure was his inability to read all these strangers fast enough and understand their motives and interests. Like with Robb as well, he was also particularly unlucky in several ways.

I don't dispute any of that.  But Abraham Lincoln was honest, in addition to portraying that, and Ned Stark was honest (and "buying" the goldcloaks isn't wrong, it's well within his legal and moral authority as Hand).  It's incredibly difficult to been seen as honest if you aren't acting in good faith to begin with.

And that is why Lord Lannister is so very wrong.  Yes, politicians have to be pragmatic, have to compromise, have to make deals.  Have to keep secrets, even.  But none of that is the same as being deceitful, or particularly manipulative.  Those kinds of people tend to make awful politicians, because no one will deal with them.

Robb makes one inconsequential mistake.  Other than that, his handling of both his external politics (war) and internal politics (the feudal jockeying of his vassals) is practically flawless. Marrying Jeyne is unimportant because the Frey's were in the process of abandoning him anyway, and as they were bargaining in bad faith, he is under no obligation either.

[cpg2016]

On 3/17/2018 at 4:48 PM, Josette DuPres said:

Those things went wrong because he made very bad decisions.  He broke his word to his most powerful ally.  He removed the head of another for something like killing prisoners of war.  Robb was an incompetent.

Actually, his ally (not his most powerful, that would be the Tullys or possible the Manderlys) broke their word to him and negotiated in bad faith.  Not that he knew that, but that's the situation.  Also, he made a mistake and offered an honest attempt to make amends.  No one is perfect - if Walder Frey had meant to deal in good faith with the Starks, none of it would have been an issue.  The fact is, the Frey's meant to betray the Starks before they heard about the Red Wedding.  GRRM has said as much.

And... what exactly was he supposed to do with Rickard Karstark?  The man killed two prisoners of war that weren't his, breaking every Westerosi taboo and rule of war in the process.  He was a criminal, and it sounds like the death penalty was accepted as just.

In every action we see Robb take save his marrying Jeyne Westerling, he acts about as perfectly as anyone could under difficult circumstances.

[Bernie Mac]

43 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Marrying Jeyne is unimportant because the Frey's were in the process of abandoning him anyway, and as they were bargaining in bad faith, he is under no obligation either.

According to the author it was not unimportant, but very costly. It was a festering wound that others, like Roose and Tywin, saw as an opportunity to exploit.  Even Jaime before the Red Wedding, who himself is no politician, can see that this wedding was the end of Robb

"Jaime felt almost sorry for Robb Stark. He won the war on the battlefield and lost it in a bedchamber, poor fool. "How does Lord Walder relish dining on trout in place of wolf?" he asked."

It was a poor decision, one that everyone on both Robb's and Tywin's side could see was a monumental error. 

 

On 16/03/2018 at 6:16 PM, cpg2016 said:

 

Robb is an excellent politician, as we see again and again. 

Come on. It is ok to argue that he was not a terrible politician but this is just bizarre. He was not an excellent politician, he was average at best. He has no idea how to deal with the Freys in AGOT, had his mother not been there to negotiate a deal his lack of political nous would have derailed him, he wants to negotiate alliances with other factions but offers Stannis, Renly, Balon or Lysa nothing in return for them supporting his military needs. He failed to see the opportunity with the Tyrells till it was too late, saw no similar opportunities with the Martells (like Tyrion did).  When it came to Rickard Karstark he chose to act on his honour rather than make the sensible decision not to kill one of his strongest allies and turn his men against him. And even on his journey to the Twins when his own mother points out the pragmatic choice would be to cut their losses and sue for peace Robb refuses. 

Politics is the art of compromise and Robb was rarely willing to do so. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

On March 20, 2018 at 4:03 PM, Bernie Mac said:

When it came to Rickard Karstark he chose to act on his honour rather than make the sensible decision not to kill one of his strongest allies and turn his men against him.

Meh, I feel the sensible decision could also be argued to have honor to it-Rickard Karstark was of noble blood, his sons died for Robb, offering a man such as him the black would be seen as totally appropriate, hell plenty of murderers in the realm to which aren't of proper birth are given the opputunity to join the watch-much worse than Rickard.

Actually probably more appropriate than what Robb did. It came across to me more him trying to avenge the boys than deliver what would be seen as "justice" on Rickard.  I feel Robb was partially still reeling from the death of Rickon and Brandon, and Karstarks murder of two innocent noble boys hit close to home. 

He felt to protect Bran and Rickon, he felt to protect the boys in his care, at least he could do is avenge the latter.