Quentyn Martell, why making him die?

[zandru]

9 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Take a step back and look harder, a not small portion of ADWD is about turning Dorne against Dany.

Maybe. You're right that Doran would have to be out of the way. With his bad health, this is a reasonable bet. I would have assumed that Dorne would prefer the Targaryen with dragons to the possible Targaryen with elephants - but, on the other hand, Dorne was first to kill dragons during Aegon's Conquest, taking down Rhaenys on Meraxes. We shall see - hopefully, within our lifetimes.

[The Commentator]

1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I think it is interesting to remember, and easy to forget that Quentyns plan was working.  He was subduing the dragon he was focusing on.  He got burned by the other dragon he had not been paying attention to.  This suggests that dragons can be tamed either by people with very little Targ blood, or possibly even none at all as Quentyns was generations back.

Well, there is a huge difference between a dragon tolerating his presence and a dragon doing his bidding.  They tolerated his presence because they saw him with their mother previously.  But it is a whole other ballgame to actually bond and ride with a dragon.  Quentyn was tolerated but it is not clear whether he could have done any more than what he was doing.  

11 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

To prove that dragons are not pushovers.

 

Mess with dragons at your own peril.  

15 hours ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

All men must die.  Death comes for every one eventually.  He died because it was his time to die.  It was foolhardy to steal a dragon.  Too many things can go wrong.  One did and it was enough to get him killed.

So what is the purpose of his arc?  The plot has been steadily building connections between Daenerys and Westeros.  Many come seeking the Dragon Queen.  Quentyn's story built a connection between Daenerys and Dorne.  It's just one more thread between Daenerys and Westeros.  Quentyn came to dance with dragons.

1. Quentyn came to dance with dragons.  He brought a signed agreement to the dance but it was not enough.  He pushed the boundaries and learned that dragons are dangerous playmates.  This is the kind of dance where you can die if your steps aren't good enough.
2. Victarion is coming to dance with dragons.  He brings a Dragonbinder to the dance.  Will it be enough?  
3. Marwyn is coming to dance with dragons.  He brings knowledge.  

It takes three to get it right.  So which of the remaining suitors will do well in the ballroom and get a dance with the dragon?

#3.  Marwyn is the one who will be successful.  He's bringing something important to the dance.  

[Free Northman Reborn]

3 minutes ago, zandru said:

Maybe. You're right that Doran would have to be out of the way. With his bad health, this is a reasonable bet. I would have assumed that Dorne would prefer the Targaryen with dragons to the possible Targaryen with elephants - but, on the other hand, Dorne was first to kill dragons during Aegon's Conquest, taking down Rhaenys on Meraxes. We shall see - hopefully, within our lifetimes.

What strikes me about Martin is how unnecessarly messy he makes things, at the cost of vast numbers of wasted pages. Or put differently, lots of pages for small plot gain.

Take Doran, Arriane and Quentyn. The purpose of the cautious Doran was to explain why Dorne never acted before and thus saved their forces until Aegon arrives, and the purpose of the hot headed Arriane is to explain why they are acting against the Lannisters now.

Well, that could as easily have been achieved by simply not killing Oberyn. He is such a great character and would have made a far more menacing vengefull leader of Dorne than Arriane will ever be able to be. Oberyn was a wasted character, and imagine having him take over now at Doran's death, and joining Aegon. Oberyn as one of Aegon's key generals would have made for a mouthwatering prospect. And saved much of the Doran, Arriane and even the Quentyn plot in the process.

Instead, Oberyn graces our pages for less than half a book and the story is the poorer for it. Plus we had to wade through pages of Dornish fluff, covering less interesting characters than Oberyn Martell.

Some strange creative decisions, in my view.

[chrisdaw]

Arianne is an actual arc, or failed arc into descent like Cat, and her mistakes or failings of character will serve as pivotal lessons for the more important POV queens. Oberyn was a two dimensional irrelevance.

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I think it is interesting to remember, and easy to forget that Quentyns plan was working.  He was subduing the dragon he was focusing on.  He got burned by the other dragon he had not been paying attention to.  This suggests that dragons can be tamed either by people with very little Targ blood, or possibly even none at all as Quentyns was generations back.

But a drop and fate (ie, plot necessity) might be all that is required. I do appreciate your argument that Quentyn did appear to be subduing Viserion...

Quote

The plan had been to feed the beasts and chain them in their torpor, just as the queen had done. One dragon, or preferably both.

"More meat," Quentyn said. Once the beasts were fed they will become sluggish. He had seen it work with snakes in Dorne, but here, with these monsters … "Bring … bring …"

Viserion launched himself from the ceiling, pale leather wings unfolding, spreading wide. The broken chain dangling from his neck swung wildly. His flame lit the pit, pale gold shot through with red and orange, and the stale air exploded in a cloud of hot ash and sulfur as the white wings beat and beat again.

A hand seized Quentyn by the shoulder. The torch spun from his grip to bounce across the floor, then tumbled into the pit, still burning. He found himself face-to-face with a brass ape. Gerris. "Quent, this will not work. They are too wild, they …"

The dragon came down between the Dornishmenand the door with a roar that would have sent a hundred lions running. His head moved side to side as he inspected the intruders—Dornishmen, Windblown, Caggo. Last and longest the beast stared at Pretty Meris, sniffing. The woman, Quentyn realized. He knows that she is female. He is looking for Daenerys. He wants his mother and does not understand why she' s not here. Quentyn wrenched free of Gerris's grip. "Viserion," he called. The white one is Viserion. For half a heartbeat he was afraid he'd gotten it wrong.

"Viserion," he called again, fumbling for the whip hanging from his belt. She cowed the black one with a whip. I need to do the same. The dragon knew his name. His head turned, and his gaze lingered on the Dornish prince for three long heartbeats. Pale fires burned behind the shining black daggers of his teeth. His eyes were lakes of molten gold, and smoke rose from his nostrils.

"Down," Quentyn said. Then he coughed, and coughed again. The air was thick with smoke and the sulfur stench was choking. Viserion lost interest. The dragon turned back toward the Windblown and lurched toward the door. Perhaps he could smell the blood of the dead guards or the meat in the butcher's wagon. Or perhaps he had only now seen that the way was open.

Quentyn heard the sellswords shouting. Caggo was calling for the chains, and Pretty Meris was screaming at someone to step aside. The dragon moved awkwardly on the ground, like a man scrabbling on his knees and elbows, but quicker than the Dornish prince would have believed. When the Windblown were too late to get out of his way, Viserion let loose with another roar. Quentyn heard the rattle of chains, the deep thrum of a crossbow.

"No," he screamed, "no, don't, don' t, " but it was too late. The fool was all that he had time to think as the quarrel caromed off Viserion's neck to vanish in the gloom. A line of fire gleamed in its wake—dragon's blood, glowing gold and red.

The crossbowman was fumbling for another quarrel as the dragon's teeth closed around his neck. The man wore the mask of a Brazen Beast, the fearsome likeness of a tiger. As he dropped his weapon to try and pry apart Viserion's jaws, flame gouted from the tiger's mouth. The man's eyes burst with soft popping sounds, and the brass around them began to run. The dragon tore off a hunk of flesh, most of the sellsword's neck, then gulped it down as the burning corpse collapsed to the floor.

The other Windblown were pulling back. This was more than even Pretty Meris had the stomach for. Viserion's horned head moved back and forth between them and his prey, but after a moment he forgot the sellswords and bent his neck to tear another mouthful from the dead man. A lower leg this time.

Quentyn let his whip uncoil. "Viserion," he called, louder this time. He could do this, he would do this, his father had sent him to the far ends of the earth for this, he would not fail him. "VISERION! " He snapped the whip in the air with a crack that echoed off the blackened walls. The pale head rose. The great gold eyes narrowed. Wisps of smoke spiraled upward from the dragon's nostrils.

"Down," the prince commanded. You must not let him smell your fear. "Down, down, down. " He brought the whip around and laid a lash across the dragon's face. Viserion hissed.

And then a hot wind buffeted him and he heard the sound of leathern wings and the air was full of ash and cinders and a monstrous roar went echoing off the scorched and blackened bricks and he could hear his friends shouting wildly. Gerris was calling out his name, over and over, and the big man was bellowing, "Behind you, behind you, behind you! "

Quentyn turned and threw his left arm across his face to shield his eyes from the furnace wind.Rhaegal, he reminded himself, the green one is Rhaegal.

When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning.

Oh, he thought. Then he began to scream.

The Dragontamer, Dance 68

[zandru]

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

What strikes me about Martin is how unnecessarly messy he makes things, at the cost of vast numbers of wasted pages. Or put differently, lots of pages for small plot gain.

Take Doran, Arriane and Quentyn. The purpose of the cautious Doran ...

(my emphases)

Well, if you want to reduce the whole story down to its Major Themes and Plot, I hear they're looking for writers over at Cliffnotes.  ;-)

To me, that's looking under the hood in a way that I find distasteful. GRRM's writing is very effective, in my opinion, at getting inside the characters' minds and vividly describing their environments and situations, as they see them. I don't care to think of the people as Lego blocks that get snapped in as needed to either stick together a plotline or set off another (more important) character.

I'm also not bothered much by the complexity of the plotlines and profusion of characters, not all of which/whom will "pay off" for the "main" plot. At this point, can you honestly say something was "too messy" or "unnecesary"? The story's not anywhere near done.

Some people, though, just want to know the final score without having to sit through the game with its incessant time-outs.

[John Suburbs]

4 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Mess with dragons at your own peril.  

Lol, Meddle not in the affairs of dragons. For thou art crunchy, and taste good with ketchup.

I saw it on a t-shirt at a Renaissance Fair once.

[Josette DuPres]

On 3/16/2018 at 3:25 PM, John Suburbs said:

Lol, Meddle not in the affairs of dragons. For thou art crunchy, and taste good with ketchup.

I saw it on a t-shirt at a Renaissance Fair once.

 

[Aegon1FanBoy]

For me 3 reasons

1, to show reader dany's good intentions have massive bad repercussions. Hell the things he said he saw on his way to mereen all on her.

2. To show that Aegon was right to go straight to westeros as they said to go east was death now we know it to be true made no sense they went there 

3. To get dorne involved in the greater game which they now are and when news of his death gets back oh yea (it was a dumb plan if you ask me though)

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On ‎3‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 1:37 PM, Littlefinger's crewman said:

Quentyn Martell is one of my favourite characters and I think his storyline could evolve in a very interesting way. So when he died I was very surprised ( more than when happened Red wedding). Now I ask myself: why should Martin have written through his point of view if he knew that Quentyn would be dead? Why did he need to tell us his story? Have Quentyn been useful at something?

 

P.S. I'm sorry for my English, I'm from Italy, if I made any mistake please forgive me

This  was Quentyn's fate when he was written , one Samwell is enough . The real driving force in the series are the women , Catelyn , Arya , Daenerys , Sansa , Brienne , Margaery , Arianne , Asha, Cercei .

[Lord Lannister]

I thought it rather refreshing that the trope of the "boy hero" on his quest to get the princess and the dragon ends in epic failure. His death served the purpose of as mentioned, driving the wedge between Dany and Dorne, likely assuring they side with the young Aegon. Along with the added plot benefit of releasing the dragons in time for the big battle.

[Angel Eyes]

On 3/15/2018 at 1:37 PM, Littlefinger's crewman said:

Quentyn Martell is one of my favourite characters and I think his storyline could evolve in a very interesting way. So when he died I was very surprised ( more than when happened Red wedding). Now I ask myself: why should Martin have written through his point of view if he knew that Quentyn would be dead? Why did he need to tell us his story? Have Quentyn been useful at something?

 

P.S. I'm sorry for my English, I'm from Italy, if I made any mistake please forgive me

For me, it's another nail in the coffin for Doran Martell's plans.

1. He has Oberyn and Willem Darry set up a marriage between Arianne Martell and Viserys Targaryen, which is stupid because of Viserys' psychopathic nature. Does Doran care for his kids?
2. He didn't burn the letter that indicated that Arianne would be passed over, leading to the attempted coup, the mutilation of Myrcella, and the decapitation of Arys Oakheart. 
3. He sends Quentyn to Meereen, not anticipating that Daenerys might make other matches, leading Quentyn to getting a large burn, and something that would get him... fired.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

He was another knight seeking the Holy Grail.   Quentyn is one of those plot pieces that play an important role and then removed as soon as they finish their part.  He had a Honda in stock and tried to sell it as a Lamborghini.  The customer didn't buy.  He chose to steal and got what was coming to him. 

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

He was another knight seeking the Holy Grail.   Quentyn is one of those plot pieces that play an important role and then removed as soon as they finish their part.  He had a Honda in stock and tried to sell it as a Lamborghini.  The customer didn't buy.  He chose to steal and got what was coming to him. 

He didn't really play a part, to be honest. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Doran likes sending his kids and other family members into dangerous quests that have a high probability of death. All while he sits on his biscuit not willing to risk it. 

[Angel Eyes]

11 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Doran likes sending his kids and other family members into dangerous quests that have a high probability of death. All while he sits on his biscuit not willing to risk it. 

He can’t really. Kinda hard to travel with gout. 

[TheThreeEyedCow]

Well, I guess George could of just had Quentyn arrive one day to meet Dany and then go off and get himself burnt. But I think George likes to indulge us. He gave us a great story within a story which he so often does. It definitely reinforced the notion that this is not typical fantasy and it set up the side characters for future development. And as others have suggested, it did give us extra insight into Essos.

I enjoyed reading his ill fated journey and still do to this day. Same with Arys Oakheart (side character admittedly). Dying doesn't make their story any less interesting. And it's more to do with what they see and hear and feel than it is what they get for participating. 

You could make the same argument for Ned, or Rob or Oberyn. Each had miles left in the tank. But they didn't make it which makes it even more interesting/agonizing. These characters are sacrificed for the greater good of the story and the entertainment of the reader. I love it.