Brandon the Barren?

[zandru]

58 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

But I do suspect we have heard of at least one bastard child of Brandon Stark; he went by the name of Domeric Bolton.

Okay, I'll bite. Where's your proof?

[Corvo the Crow]

On 17.03.2018 at 3:41 PM, Ygrain said:

And how would Ned know who Beric was betrothed to? Why should he? We only find out long after Ned's death.

Because Beric is a great lord, there would be some occasional mention of how this young and handsome great lord is to be married to the aunt of his young squire, an aunt and a nephew that are relatives (sister and nephew) of the greatest knight of their time, Ser Arthur Dayne, who was slain by another young lord, Ned, some fifteen years ago. 

On 17.03.2018 at 3:41 PM, Ygrain said:

The bolded is an assumption with no textual support.

Trrue, but if Lyanna is still in RL a year after the tourney, it makes some sense that Brandon who will marry the daughter of  the overlord of the RL to be around too. During this time Ned And Bob were in the Vale for some reason and we have no information on Benjen.

 

On 17.03.2018 at 3:41 PM, Ygrain said:

He may not be vocal about his feelings but he sure as hell does show what he thinks about people with his actions.

 

 

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If I had been a better knight … if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty …

Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice. Not the queen, who was not present. Nor Elia of Dorne, though she was good and gentle; had she been chosen, much war and woe might have been avoided. His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia's companions … though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab. 

Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara's smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter …

But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark? 

He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.

 

 

 

 

As vocal as Barristan the Bold gets, even in his private thoughts. No ill will towards "Stark" is shown, whether he is Brandon or Eddard. At most he only feels guilt over his failures.

 

On 17.03.2018 at 3:41 PM, Ygrain said:

And when did Lysa ever get to meet Jaime (not to mention that the young Jaime seemed a pretty decent, idealistic guy, not the jaded kingslayer he became later). Also, I have to disagree that LF is mud - he may not have the imposing physique but he has the quick wit and is a manipulative bastard. In other words, LF is a bad boy, and Lysa's love for him consumed her.

 

Tywin intended to marry Jaime with Lysa. Jaime may have been idealistic but he would have a "bad boy" reputation just from his time against the Kingswood if nothing else and with his Lannister looks he never was mud anyway.

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Jaime, meantime, had spent four years as squire to Ser Sumner Crake-hall and earned his spurs against the Kingswood Brotherhood. But when he made a brief call at King's Landing on his way back to Casterly Rock, chiefly to see his sister, Cersei took him aside and whispered that Lord Tywin meant to marryhim to Lysa Tully, had gone so far as to invite Lord Hoster to the city to discuss dower. But if Jaime took the white, he could be near her always.

The first time I saw Riverrun, I was a squire green as summer grass," Jaime told his cousin. "Old Sumner Crakehall sent me to deliver a message, one he swore could not be entrusted to a raven. Lord Hoster kept me for a fortnight whilst mulling his reply, and sat me beside his daughter Lysa at every meal."

 

Petyr becomes the bad boy LF after the duel with Brandon, he is mud before that.

On 17.03.2018 at 3:41 PM, Ygrain said:

This is an incorrect assumption. GRRM has stated that Arianne's sexual exploits are not the rule among highborn Dornish maidens and that they are not supposed to be sleeping around (and brithing illegitimate children).

Plus, it is Barristan's point of view, not Ashara's, that calls her dishonored.

Even more reason for Ashara to not sleep around then, at the very least with Brandon who is betrothed and to be married soon, therefore won't be marrying to her. Ned on the other hand is free to marry, so while she isn't supposed to sleep around, if she fancied Ned for this reason or that, then there's at least the chance of marrying with him and a great one at that since he is not the heir but the spare.

Your reply was about Daynes' point of view, not Barristan the Old's.

On 17.03.2018 at 3:41 PM, Ygrain said:

Sorry, don't see what you mean here.

Sorry, even I don't remember what I meant.

 

On 17.03.2018 at 3:41 PM, Ygrain said:

You mean, like the Lannisters returned Ice? - Except, they didn't. If you have information about other ancestral blades returned, please, share it

There's no information given outright but I'll check into the list of Valyrian swords and see which owners were defeated in battle/war to get some idea on it, once I have time.

On 17.03.2018 at 3:41 PM, Ygrain said:

You have an Edric in the Stark genealogy and you have Robert's bastard, whose name was hardly a reference to anything, given that children are named by their mothers and Delenna Florent had no reason to name him after the Starks. Meaning, Edric is a pre-existing name and its creation had nothing to do with Ned Stark.

Do we know who named Edric Storm though? Is it specifically pointed out that it's the Florents? If not, well Delenna is married to a household knight and Edric grows up in Storm's End where Robert visits him so it could very well be that Robert named him after his bestie and the murdered father of his.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

@Lord Varys

You are right on some points but what you are missing is this, Brandon is dead and so is his father. It is Brandon's brother who rules the North now and he has a reputation, not just in the North but throughout Westeros, for being honorable. Any by blows of Brandon, at least those he sired in the north, would be brought to Ned and especially those with the looks of a Stark.

As for bastard acknowledgement, Mya is known to be Robert's bastard too. Even Cersei knows about Robert having a bastard in the Vale, though maybe not her name. 

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Because Beric is a great lord, there would be some occasional mention of how this young and handsome great lord is to be married to the aunt of his young squire, an aunt and a nephew that are relatives (sister and nephew) of the greatest knight of their time, Ser Arthur Dayne, who was slain by another young lord, Ned, some fifteen years ago. 

Given that we don't even have Ned talking to Beric himself (other than sending him after Gregor), I don't see why Ned should have any such info, nor why he should be interested in if and who to he was betrothed (and since we don't hear this at the tourney, where Sansa and Jeyne are very much interested, it was apparently not such a common knowledge)

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Trrue, but if Lyanna is still in RL a year after the tourney, it makes some sense that Brandon who will marry the daughter of  the overlord of the RL to be around too. During this time Ned And Bob were in the Vale for some reason and we have no information on Benjen.

The reason of Lyanna's stay is unknown, therefore no correlation can be established. Trying to establish or assume one is not a valid analysis.

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

As vocal as Barristan the Bold gets, even in his private thoughts. No ill will towards "Stark" is shown, whether he is Brandon or Eddard. At most he only feels guilt over his failures.

Well, IIRC, Barristan never refers to Ned Stark solely as "Stark" but as "Lord Stark". The absence of  a title might be indicative of something.

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Tywin intended to marry Jaime with Lysa. Jaime may have been idealistic but he would have a "bad boy" reputation just from his time against the Kingswood if nothing else and with his Lannister looks he never was mud anyway.

I'm afraid you misunderstand what Barristan means by his fire and mud cautionary tale. It is not about looks, or reputation. If you look at what happened to Ashara: she fell for a man's charm, got pregnant, and had to bear the consequences completely on her own. That is what fire means. Charming but selfish and callous, and eventually destructive for the girl who fell for his appeal like a moth in flame. Jaime was not this kind of a bad boy.

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Petyr becomes the bad boy LF after the duel with Brandon, he is mud before that.

Uh, no. The flaws in his personality go way back before that, the duel only let the demons lose.

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Even more reason for Ashara to not sleep around then, at the very least with Brandon who is betrothed and to be married soon, therefore won't be marrying to her.

Moths shouldn't fly into flames, either, yet they do - that is the point of Barristan's analogy. 

Plus, unless Westeros has some wedding and betrothals announcement service, there is no reason why Ashara should be aware of his betrothal.

 

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Ned on the other hand is free to marry, so while she isn't supposed to sleep around, if she fancied Ned for this reason or that, then there's at least the chance of marrying with him and a great one at that since he is not the heir but the spare.

Exactly. Which is why it doesn't make any sense for her to be dishonored with a bastard when it could have been easily amended.

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Your reply was about Daynes' point of view, not Barristan the Old's.

Do you think the Daynes wouldn't care what the rest of Westeros thought about their daughter's affair? That she had to leave to royal service to give birth to a bastard? That her marriage prospects wouldn't drop considerably?

Barristan thinks Ashara was dishonored. GRRM tells us that even in Dorne, highborn girls aren't supposed to sleep around. In other words, the Daynes wouldn't be pleased with their daughter's condition, either.

 

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Do we know who named Edric Storm though? Is it specifically pointed out that it's the Florents? If not, well Delenna is married to a household knight and Edric grows up in Storm's End where Robert visits him so it could very well be that Robert named him after his bestie and the murdered father of his.

It is specifically pointed out that children are named by their mothers. Unless specifically stated otherwise, then Edric was named by Delenna.

And since there are other characters named Edric, the name was definitely not composed as a nod to Eddard and Rickard.

[John Suburbs]

On ‎3‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 1:53 PM, zandru said:

Okay, I'll bite. Where's your proof?

Well, proof is in the eye of the beholder. If there was undisputed proof, there would be no reason to discuss it. But there is this:

Brandon was a lusty guy. He did Barbrey Ryswell, so it's not that much of a stretch to think he also did Bethany Ryswell, Domeric's mom.

Domeric was a master horseman:

Quote

Reek III, DoD

Roose Bolton:

Horses … the boy was mad for horses, Lady Dustin will tell you. Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself.

If there is any truth to Stark warging capabilities, then Dom may have had the same sort of mind-connection to horses that Lyanna (and maybe Arya) may have had.

Roose also could care less that his bastard son murdered his "trueborn" son and heir, a man who had all the makings of being a champion jouster who would have brought honor and glory to House Bolton. Mayhaps he knew all along that Dom was not of his blood? (I think there is actually a whole lot more to this, but this will do for now.)

But before you come back with "this is not proof of anything" let me state again that I know it's not proof. This is why a say I suspect, rather than I know.

[Corvo the Crow]

24 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

It is specifically pointed out that children are named by their mothers. Unless specifically stated otherwise, then Edric was named by Delenna.

And since there are other characters named Edric, the name was definitely not composed as a nod to Eddard and Rickard.

And where is that told, may I ask? Don't point me to the SSM as it says nothing of the sort. It says;

 

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5. Since all of their mothers died, who gave Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen and Tyrion Lannister their names?

Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned.

It doesn't specifically says it is the mothers who have the name rights of a child. Even the idea of children being named by their mothers and not their fathers comes from the question of that fan.

 

31 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I'm afraid you misunderstand what Barristan means by his fire and mud cautionary tale. It is not about looks, or reputation. If you look at what happened to Ashara: she fell for a man's charm, got pregnant, and had to bear the consequences completely on her own. That is what fire means. Charming but selfish and callous, and eventually destructive for the girl who fell for his appeal like a moth in flame.

Perhaps, but this is how Dany sees Daario, at least after a quick search

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The dragon has three heads, but I have only one. She thought of Daario. If ever there was a man who could rape a woman with his eyes . . .

To be sure, she was just as guilty. Dany found herself stealing looks at the Tyroshi when her captains came to council, and sometimes at night she remembered the way his gold tooth glittered when he smiled. That, and his eyes. His bright blue eyes.

 

And this is Barristan the Old's views on mud and fire

 

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Prince Quentyn was listening intently, at least. That one is his father's son. Short and stocky, plain-faced, he seemed a decent lad, sober, sensible, dutiful … but not the sort to make a young girl's heart beat faster. And Daenerys Targaryen, whatever else she might be, was still a young girl, as she herself would claim when it pleased her to play the innocent. Like all good queens she put her people first—else she would never have wed Hizdahr zo Loraq—but the girl in her still yearned for poetry, passion, and laughter. She wants fire, and Dorne sent her mud.

You could make a poultice out of mud to cool a fever. You could plant seeds in mud and grow a crop to feed your children. Mud would nourish you, where fire would only consume you, but fools and children and young girls would choose fire every time. 

Behind the prince, Ser Gerris Drinkwater was whispering something to Yronwood. Ser Gerris was all his prince was not: tall and lean and comely, with a swordsman's grace and a courtier's wit. Selmy did not doubt that many a Dornish maiden had run her fingers through that sun-streaked hair and kissed that teasing smile off his lips. If this one had been the prince, things might have gone elsewise, he could not help but think … but there was something a bit too pleasant about Drinkwater for his taste. False coin, the old knight thought. He had known such men before.

 

So, According to Barristan looks are a part of fire, and a major one at that.

39 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Well, IIRC, Barristan never refers to Ned Stark solely as "Stark" but as "Lord Stark". The absence of  a title might be indicative of something.

Never in his internal thoughts. Only twice do we get a mention of Stark from Barristan PoV, one is Lyanna and the other is unknown. Since Ned was Lord for the last 15 years or so Ned will be the Stark in Barristan's eyes and with rumors of Ashara and Ned from as North as Winterfell to as south as King's Landing, even Starfall if Edric's story counts as one, it is  safer to say it's Ned in Barristan's thoughts and not Brandon.

 

May reply to the rest of the post once I have time again.

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Mud would nourish you, where fire would only consume you, but fools and children and young girls would choose fire every time. 

It is not the looks of fire that consume...

But good that you have picked the whole quote, especially the part where Barristan calls Gerris false coin. Daario is yet another false charmer, and as for Brandon... poor him, he really wanted Barbrey but had to marry Cat, so long and thanks for all the sex. Pull the other leg, the betrothal had been agreed for quite some time.

 

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

It doesn't specifically says it is the mothers who have the name rights of a child. Even the idea of children being named by their mothers and not their fathers comes from the question of that fan.

You need to read the SSM again. The fan asks who names the child when the mother dies, i.e. assumes that it is the mother who chooses the name, and GRRM doesn't correct them, i.e. the assumption is correct. A name day = birthday, so I hope you don't want to claim that Robert, who couldn't be bothered to send his son presents and had Varys do it on his behalf, took the pains of being present for Delenna's delivery to name a child he didn't give a fig about.

[Universal Sword Donor]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Well, proof is in the eye of the beholder. If there was undisputed proof, there would be no reason to discuss it. But there is this:

Brandon was a lusty guy. He did Barbrey Ryswell, so it's not that much of a stretch to think he also did Bethany Ryswell, Domeric's mom.

Domeric was a master horseman:

If there is any truth to Stark warging capabilities, then Dom may have had the same sort of mind-connection to horses that Lyanna (and maybe Arya) may have had.

Roose also could care less that his bastard son murdered his "trueborn" son and heir, a man who had all the makings of being a champion jouster who would have brought honor and glory to House Bolton. Mayhaps he knew all along that Dom was not of his blood? (I think there is actually a whole lot more to this, but this will do for now.)

But before you come back with "this is not proof of anything" let me state again that I know it's not proof. This is why a say I suspect, rather than I know.

So do you think Roose watched while Brandon cuckolded him or do you think it was a DADT kind of situation. I'm not sure how Ned Stark would have adjudged the situation.

[Lord Varys]

On 19.3.2018 at 4:48 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

@Lord Varys

You are right on some points but what you are missing is this, Brandon is dead and so is his father. It is Brandon's brother who rules the North now and he has a reputation, not just in the North but throughout Westeros, for being honorable. Any by blows of Brandon, at least those he sired in the north, would be brought to Ned and especially those with the looks of a Stark.

Sorry, but we have no indication that the brothers or other lordly or royal kin of an alleged noble bastard routinely acknowledge such children. One could see that happening if a man like Brandon impregnated a servant at Winterfell with the knowledge of pretty much everyone at the castle shortly before his death, but the many women out in the country - in the Rills, the Barrowlands, wherever else Brandon spent a lot of time in his youth - are different cases.

Ned may be honorable but he is not known as a moron buying shit on a regular basis. Aside from the looks of their children such women wouldn't have any proof about the parentage of their children. And even child looking like a Stark doesn't have to be Brandon's child to look like that. He could be the child of somebody else who is descended from the Starks.

Aegon the Unworthy legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed but nobody went out into the country and brought the good news to the baseborn bastards of the king whose looks marked them as Targaryen children. If your father doesn't acknowledge you as his bastard you simply are not his bastard.

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As for bastard acknowledgement, Mya is known to be Robert's bastard too. Even Cersei knows about Robert having a bastard in the Vale, though maybe not her name. 

Sure, but I was talking about King Robert above, not Lord Robert. Lord Robert had one bastard he acknowledged in Mya Stone. King Robert one in more in Edric Storm. The majority of his bastards were fathered during his reign as king and he didn't acknowledge a single one of them, aside from Edric Storm for the above mentioned reasons, never mind the fact that as a king he most definitely had the means to do so and care for the children in a proper way.

If King Robert can do that, many other noblemen could ignore their bastards in a similar manner. In fact, it seems that mostly only the bastards you have with a woman you are actually somewhat invested in, for a time - or those whose high rank force you to acknowledge their children -, get their bastards acknowledged.

The average whore/camp follower/bed warmer you fuck only once or twice is not likely to ever see you again.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

18 hours ago, Ygrain said:

You need to read the SSM again. The fan asks who names the child when the mother dies, i.e. assumes that it is the mother who chooses the name, and GRRM doesn't correct them, i.e. the assumption is correct.

No mention is made of this being a firm rule in the books. We can't really read too much into a response GRRM made to that sort of question. It may be that the assumption was correct, it may be he didn't argue the point because it's not a big deal, we don't know. 

You would expect most couples to have a discussion about what to name the child, like most couples have done since the beginning of time. Of course, if one parent isn't available - because they knocked the girl up and ran, because they're dead, because they're just not about for whatever reason, then the onus would fall on the parent who was present, or in Jon's case, on the man left holding the baby after both parents die. 

Small point - Bronn names Lollys's baby. Not proof either way, but it suggests an overbearing husband could make the decision if he chose to. 

[Faera]

Aha, when I saw this title I double took for a moment and thought, "Which Brandon was this?!" 

To answer the question at hand, no I don't think Brandon was infertile. GRRM suggested that there could well be some little Snows out there, since Brandon got around, only clarifying that he had no legitimate children. There's no point to him bein revealed to be infertile. It's not like it would make a difference now he's been dead since before Robert's Rebellion kicked off eighteen years ago.

As for who might be Brandon's kid, at most, maybe he fathered Ashara's supposed daughter if she even existed to begin with. If that girl lived, maybe Ned Dayne will see her at some point (or she might turn out to be Beric's betrothed Allyria or something), but that's just my own crackpottery talking.  As for the more fringe, "heretic" ideas like Brandon was Jon or Robb's real father... yeah, no. Unless their mothers had abnormally long pregnancies both boys are too young. 

Regardless of whether Brandon has any living bastards running around it probably doesn't really matter. I don't see a bastard of the Wild Wolf playing any significant role so its inclusion would only be an easter egg. 

[Angel Eyes]

I wonder what Catelyn would have done with the bastards. Two men she loved having bastards, she’s no Cersei, right?

[Universal Sword Donor]

24 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I wonder what Catelyn would have done with the bastards. Two men she loved having bastards, she’s no Cersei, right?

She did nothing with John. Cannot imagine it would be any different with Brandon

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

No mention is made of this being a firm rule in the books. We can't really read too much into a response GRRM made to that sort of question. It may be that the assumption was correct, it may be he didn't argue the point because it's not a big deal, we don't know. 

You would expect most couples to have a discussion about what to name the child, like most couples have done since the beginning of time. Of course, if one parent isn't available - because they knocked the girl up and ran, because they're dead, because they're just not about for whatever reason, then the onus would fall on the parent who was present, or in Jon's case, on the man left holding the baby after both parents die. 

Small point - Bronn names Lollys's baby. Not proof either way, but it suggests an overbearing husband could make the decision if he chose to. 

If a fan makes an incorrect statement, GRRM corrects it in his answer, it has happened time and again.

It is certainly not a rule set in stone that it is the mother and solely the mother who names the child, but it is apparently what usually happens. There is zero reason why Delenna's husband should want to name a baby that is not his, or why Robert, who wasn't even present for the birth of his trueborn children, should want to be involved. 

BTW, Bronn and Lolys are hardly a classic example.

[White Ravens]

Brandon Stark has no bastards (that we know of) because GRRM didn't need him to.  Of course he's been planting and cultivating and pruning his story since it began so a bastard could still become a plot point in the future...

Brandon was only 19 or 20  years old when he died and that is a bit young to assume that he was shooting blanks and he was probably practicing whatever birth control he could such as coitus interruptus.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

She did nothing with John. Cannot imagine it would be any different with Brandon

And she never proffesed to love Brandon. She was merely arranged to wed the man for her house not love him. She learned to love Ned but that was never viewed as a necessity.  I feel she'd be a lot warmer to Brandon's by blows than Jon, for the fact his presence isn't that much an insult-still possibly threatened.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

47 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

If a fan makes an incorrect statement, GRRM corrects it in his answer, it has happened time and again.

I'm sure it has, but you really shouldn't use that as the basis to argue that if he doesn't do it for some reason, then whatever the fan stated MUST be true. I don't want to make an issue of it though, I'll only consider things he says as canon, you (of course) are free to have your own criteria. 

49 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

There is zero reason why Delenna's husband should want to name a baby that is not his, or why Robert, who wasn't even present for the birth of his trueborn children, should want to be involved. 

On that I agree, I doubt Robert gave a damn. It seems like he had little involvement in his "trueborn" children's names, as I think they all have traditional Lannister names. 

51 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

BTW, Bronn and Lolys are hardly a classic example.

I consider them the quintessential 7K couple. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

40 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

Brandon was only 19 or 20  years old when he died and that is a bit young to assume that he was shooting blanks

All that horse-riding can take its toll. 

[White Ravens]

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

All that horse-riding can take its toll. 

Someone should have told that to Genghis Khan, considered to have fathered more children than anyone else in history and when he wasn't busy doing that he was on horse back expanding his empire.  

Quote

From wikipedia:

He is said to have fathered at least 1,000 children, possibly as many as 2,000 from as many as 3000 wives. Genetic analysis has shown he is a male-line ancestor of 0.5% of the world's population.

 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

7 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

Someone should have told that to Genghis Khan

It would have been a brave man who suggested to Genghis that his balls might not work.