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Jon's burned hand


Haus Berlin

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Dear friends,

this forum is rich of R+L=J topics, but my question is only just a very simple one:



What is the purpose of Jon's scarred hand, if R+L=J would be true?

This incident occurs in AGOT, the first book of the series, when Jon saves his Lord Commander from a wight attack. In the temporarily last book, ADWD, the burning of a hand is mirrored by Quentyn, when he is about to prove his worth as a suitor for Daenerys. Before he heads off to tame her dragons, he brings his hand into a candle's flame and withdraws because of its heat. Later he gets burned by the dragons.

It is tempting to take a fireproof sensation as a proof for Targaryen blood, but then again there is Daenerys' supposed brother Viserys who dies when he gets a crown of molten gold.

So, if the bastard Jon is indeed of Targaryen blood, what became of his fireproof quality? Daenerys recovers from her burning without scars. How is Jon's inability to withstand fire important? Or is it an early and sure proof that Jon is no Targaryen? Alongside with Viserys? How do other supposed Targaryens interact with fire; (f)Aegon, Tyrion or Cersei / Jaime?

 

I welcome all of your ideas and suggestions for topics about that special issue.

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1 minute ago, Haus Berlin said:

So, if the bastard Jon is indeed of Targaryen blood, what became of his fireproof quality?

Targaryens are not immune to fire.

I'll say it again, because it's very important... Targaryens are not immune to fire. They can have an affinity to it, and to heat... I imagine Targaryens like hot baths, and pizza straight from the oven. But they can still be burned... a whole bunch burned up at Summerhall. Jon getting burned has nothing to do with his heritage, and says nothing about that heritage. 

When Dany's Dragons were hatched, she survived due to a one-off magical event. 

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Dear @Unacosamedarisa, thanks for your answer.

You know, I thought about mentioning Summerhall when I set up this topic. Only, this story is yet to be told. I tend towards Ser Barristan's version (socery... if not science). Too much is to be gained from a spectacular presentation of Targaryen madness and to cover up clues is easy once everything is burned down. Just a feeling until now, though.

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Rhaenys Targaryen's body was burned to a crisp and Aegon II so badly burned that his armour was fused to his skin. Daeron the Daring's body could never be identified because he died in dragonflame. Aerion Brightflame burned to death when he drank wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan both burned at Summerhall. Viserys died when molten gold got poured over his head.

Immunity to fire is not a Targaryen trait. It is unique to Daenerys and even then I find it highly unlikely that she could ever replicate it. It was a one off magical event.

So Jon's burned hand has nothing to do with his 'Targaryenness'

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I also think that Jon's burning or unburning, has nothing to do with whether he's a Targaryen or not.

But I think that his burned hand does mean something. Though what exactly, we will find out only later, in next books.

Also I think that maybe there is something about Jon and dragon blood. This is from his last chapter - "Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking." Maybe it's nothing, but shouldn't warm or hot things on cold air be steaming, not smoking? Dragon's blood is also smoking.

 

 

 

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Many good answers so far. This also sorta links to the "cup of ice and fire" metaphor discussion that has been recently had. There is plenty to suggest that Jon, despite his heritage, will choose to drink from the cup of ice, most likely as Bran is doing, and he and Bran will be the ones working together. The "ice dragon", so to speak.

A Game of Thrones - Jon VIII

"A scarred hand is nothing. On the Wall, you'll be wearing gloves often as not."
"As you say, my lord." It was not the thought of scars that troubled Jon; it was the rest of it. Maester Aemon had given him milk of the poppy, yet even so, the pain had been hideous. At first it had felt as if his hand were still aflame, burning day and night. Only plunging it into basins of snow and shaved ice gave any relief at all. Jon thanked the gods that no one but Ghost saw him writhing on his bed, whimpering from the pain. And when at last he did sleep, he dreamt, and that was even worse. In the dream, the corpse he fought had blue eyes, black hands, and his father's face, but he dared not tell Mormont that.
"Dywen and Hake returned last night," the Old Bear said. "They found no sign of your uncle, no more than the others did."
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2 hours ago, Haus Berlin said:

So, if the bastard Jon is indeed of Targaryen blood, what became of his fireproof quality?

There's no such thing as a fireproof quality (or fireproof characters) that is used as a DNA test. 

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2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Many good answers so far. This also sorta links to the "cup of ice and fire" metaphor discussion that has been recently had. There is plenty to suggest that Jon, despite his heritage, will choose to drink from the cup of ice, most likely as Bran is doing, and he and Bran will be the ones working together. The "ice dragon", so to speak.

A Game of Thrones - Jon VIII

"A scarred hand is nothing. On the Wall, you'll be wearing gloves often as not."
"As you say, my lord." It was not the thought of scars that troubled Jon; it was the rest of it. Maester Aemon had given him milk of the poppy, yet even so, the pain had been hideous. At first it had felt as if his hand were still aflame, burning day and night. Only plunging it into basins of snow and shaved ice gave any relief at all. Jon thanked the gods that no one but Ghost saw him writhing on his bed, whimpering from the pain. And when at last he did sleep, he dreamt, and that was even worse. In the dream, the corpse he fought had blue eyes, black hands, and his father's face, but he dared not tell Mormont that.
"Dywen and Hake returned last night," the Old Bear said. "They found no sign of your uncle, no more than the others did."

I agree.

There are a lot of opportunities to write Jon as being by a fire or going towards a fire as being near the Wall where it's cold, there are no doubt a lot of fires. But Jon is written as going towards windows which are the coldest place in a room in winter, as going outside into the cold for a walk. The cold seems to calm him. 

 

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22 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Also I think that maybe there is something about Jon and dragon blood. This is from his last chapter - "Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking." Maybe it's nothing, but shouldn't warm or hot things on cold air be steaming, not smoking? Dragon's blood is also smoking..

I think you are on to something. Sam's friend is a Nazgul, approved when the got hit by the nazgul blade. And now some Gardener delivery service from House Florent has to bring Athelas err I mean Kingsfoil to the carrier of the one ring. 

Oh wait ... I know that story. 

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For what it's worth, Dany's hands are burned in ADWD. 

27 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I also think that Jon's burning or unburning, has nothing to do with whether he's a Targaryen or not.

But I think that his burned hand does mean something. Though what exactly, we will find out only later, in next books.

Also I think that maybe there is something about Jon and dragon blood. This is from his last chapter - "Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking." Maybe it's nothing, but shouldn't warm or hot things on cold air be steaming, not smoking? Dragon's blood is also smoking.

Small Paul's wound is described as "smoking". It could be because of the weapon that's used to kill him or because it's so damn cold. Funnily enough (or not), it's the Other Sam killed who is described as steaming where he (it?) was stabbed by the dragonglass, and when the Other touched the dragonglass, his fingers smoked. 

I can't really picture the whole thing in my head, tbh.

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Dear @Adam Yozza, you provided us with many strong and very good examples for the Targaryen version of professional burnout and I wholeheartedly thank you for that. If all that talk is true and not only defamation of some unwanted Targaryen family members or their dynasty as a whole, then Jon's burned hand is in good company, I'd say. Then I'd answer my own question about Targ!Jon's hand that way:

The burned hand foreshadowes Jon's heritage as a Targaryen, who had a strong connection to fire thanks to their favourite instrument of power, dragons. The burning of Jon's hand results in Longclaw, when the Lord Commander puts trust in Jon and puts more responsibility into his hands too. Dragons have claws. Lions have paws. Jaime loses his and grows a golden hand instead. Another kind of power than Lord Commander Jon, it seems, for another idea of the kingdom. After all Jon had been through, he will bear some scars to remember himself, not to play with fire - some are on his best hand. So when he learns about his true parentage, he shouldn't be too tempted. I can see that.

Nevertheless there is still some doubt. Magic exists in this series and a lot of great people in this forum try to bring it into order. I trust part of the endgame has fire wights against ice wights. We have blood magic, dragons and warging and much much more. It is still possible that immunity against fire is a Targaryen trait, regardless of the badmouthing. Until now the only known Targaryens are Daenerys and Viserys. The molten crown could easily just have smothered Daenerys brother. So how do skeptics of R+L=J perceive the burning of Jon's hand?

 

 

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2 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Targaryens are not immune to fire.

I'll say it again, because it's very important... Targaryens are not immune to fire. They can have an affinity to it, and to heat... I imagine Targaryens like hot baths, and pizza straight from the oven. But they can still be burned... a whole bunch burned up at Summerhall. Jon getting burned has nothing to do with his heritage, and says nothing about that heritage. 

When Dany's Dragons were hatched, she survived due to a one-off magical event. 

Lol, I burned my mouth on pizza the other night. I am definitely not a Targaryen.

But more to the point:

If, and I stress the word if, Dany has some kind of fire resistance, wouldn't it make more sense that it comes from her Dornish heritage, than her Targaryen heritage? Think about it: who would have a greater interest in infusing their blood with some kind of anti-fire ability, the ones who control the dragons or the ones who oppose them. The Rhoynar fought the Valyrians for more than two centuries, and the Rhoynar were steeped in water magic. After their defeat, they wound up in Dorne where the Martells can trace their ancestry right back to Nymeria herself. Dany, in fact, is a fifth-generation Martell (Dareon II m. Mariah Martell), and a fourth-generation Dayne (Maekar m. Dyanna Dayne).

So there is that, plus the fact that we don't know for sure that any Targs actually burned at Summerhall, just that they died. Burning wood roofs crashing on your head will kill you even if the fire doesn't. And Dany feels heat and burning as well, so Quent's reaction to the flame is not necessarily evidence that he would die in a fire attack. Dany suffered burns on her hands after Daznak's Pit, but she was largely unscathed despite have all her hair burned off again -- so that aspect of the magical one-off event has apparently happened a second time.

But like dragon dreams and, supposedly, a Targaryen resistance to illness, it would seem that none of these traits are universal, since some Targs have died of illness and, like you said, some may actually have burned to death at Summerhall. So the fact that Jon does get burned should in no way rule out his possibility as a Targ. But on the other hand, Jon seems to exhibit no shred at Targaryenness -- not the hair, the eyes, fire abilities, and I think he had all of one dream with a dragon in it. But he does show multiple signs of being a Stark.

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4 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Lol, I burned my mouth on pizza the other night. I am definitely not a Targaryen.

But more to the point:

If, and I stress the word if, Dany has some kind of fire resistance, wouldn't it make more sense that it comes from her Dornish heritage, than her Targaryen heritage? Think about it: who would have a greater interest in infusing their blood with some kind of anti-fire ability, the ones who control the dragons or the ones who oppose them. The Rhoynar fought the Valyrians for more than two centuries, and the Rhoynar were steeped in water magic. After their defeat, they wound up in Dorne where the Martells can trace their ancestry right back to Nymeria herself. Dany, in fact, is a fifth-generation Martell (Dareon II m. Mariah Martell), and a fourth-generation Dayne (Maekar m. Dyanna Dayne).

So there is that, plus the fact that we don't know for sure that any Targs actually burned at Summerhall, just that they died. Burning wood roofs crashing on your head will kill you even if the fire doesn't. And Dany feels heat and burning as well, so Quent's reaction to the flame is not necessarily evidence that he would die in a fire attack. Dany suffered burns on her hands after Daznak's Pit, but she was largely unscathed despite have all her hair burned off again -- so that aspect of the magical one-off event has apparently happened a second time.

But like dragon dreams and, supposedly, a Targaryen resistance to illness, it would seem that none of these traits are universal, since some Targs have died of illness and, like you said, some may actually have burned to death at Summerhall. So the fact that Jon does get burned should in no way rule out his possibility as a Targ. But on the other hand, Jon seems to exhibit no shred at Targaryenness -- not the hair, the eyes, fire abilities, and I think he had all of one dream with a dragon in it. But he does show multiple signs of being a Stark.

I love everything about your post, thank you! You put much thought into my draft even though you see things quite differently. And what you wrote really connected some things for me. I like your Dornish Daenerys approach and I keep it in the back of my head until there is something ripe enough to be written down coming from it.

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It puts me in mind of the Fiery Hand of R'hllor and Melisandre's contention that Jon is an instrument of R'hllor.  So no to protection against fire (unless he is raised by fire) but he is marked by R'hllor.  Oddly, it's Mormont's Raven who tells Jon what to do:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon VII

… and saw Lord Mormont, naked and groggy from sleep, standing in the doorway with an oil lamp in hand. Gnawed and fingerless, the arm thrashed on the floor, wriggling toward him.

Jon tried to shout, but his voice was gone. Staggering to his feet, he kicked the arm away and snatched the lamp from the Old Bear's fingers. The flame flickered and almost died. "Burn!" the raven cawed. "Burn, burn, burn!"

Spinning, Jon saw the drapes he'd ripped from the window. He flung the lamp into the puddled cloth with both hands. Metal crunched, glass shattered, oil spewed, and the hangings went up in a great whoosh of flame. The heat of it on his face was sweeter than any kiss Jon had ever known. "Ghost!" he shouted.

I think this is also the scene that Melisandre sees in her fire:  Jon limned in flame tthrough the window with burning drapes and Jon, Ghost and Jon attacking Othor. 
 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

Death, thought Melisandre. The skulls are death.

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen.

 

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30 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

But on the other hand, Jon seems to exhibit no shred at Targaryenness -- not the hair, the eyes, fire abilities, and I think he had all of one dream with a dragon in it. But he does show multiple signs of being a Stark.

So what that he doesn't look like a Targaryen? He looks more like his Stark mother, that's all. His hair and eye color is the same as Lyanna's, and he has long face typical for Starks. Which doesn't mean, that he didn't inherited any of Rhaegar's features. Many people said that Jon is beautiful (though mostly those people were men, and they used different word, to describe his looks). So could be that Jon inherited beauty of Targaryens, but coloring of Starks.    

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4 hours ago, Haus Berlin said:

 

First things first, I don't believe Jon is the son of Rhaegar.  I don't believe in R+L=J.  

The purpose of his burned hand?  The boy got burned.  That's the purpose.  He doesn't have heat resistance.  He doesn't have a higher than normal tolerance for heat.  

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2 minutes ago, Megorova said:

So what that he doesn't look like a Targaryen? He looks more like his Stark mother, that's all. His hair and eye color is the same as Lyanna's, and he has long face typical for Starks. Which doesn't mean, that he didn't inherited any of Rhaegar's features. Many people said that Jon is beautiful (though mostly those people were men, and they used different word, to describe his looks). So could be that Jon inherited beauty of Targaryens, but coloring of Starks.    

You're thinking of show Jon. There's nothing in the books saying Jon is good-looking.

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