Jon's burned hand

[Shi Qiang]

13 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

You're thinking of show Jon. There's nothing in the books saying Jon is good-looking.

I believe you are correct.  Though, in practical terms, Ygritte liked him.  Which doesn't really mean anything but since he has all of his teeth , by her standards, he's ok.

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, Allardyce said:

I believe you are correct.  Though, in practical terms, Ygritte liked him.  Which doesn't really mean anything but since he has all of his teeth , by her standards, he's ok.

I'm not sure what you mean w/ 'by her standards'. Care to elaborate?

[Shi Qiang]

16 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I'm not sure what you mean w/ 'by her standards'. Care to elaborate?

The wildlings lead mean lives.  Jon would look well-fed and cleaner when compared side by side.  That alone can give the boy an edge with a female.  'sides, Jon is different from other men around her.  That starts the wheel of curiosity.

[Seams]

I tried once to analyze hilts and scabbards mentioned in the books and wasn't able to find a pattern. But I think they are related to the hands that hold them. After Jon finds the obsidian cache at the Fist of the First Men, he makes a handle for a dagger blade for himself. He makes the handle out of wood and he describes it as "ugly". I think the ugly handle of the obsidian dagger is a deliberate match to Jon's scarred hand. The other blade that was described as ugly belonged to Gared, who had been maimed (lost ears, finger, etc.) by frostbite.

And I do think that dagger will be important as the books reach their conclusion.

6 hours ago, Haus Berlin said:

How do other supposed Targaryens interact with fire; (f)Aegon, Tyrion or Cersei / Jaime?

When Tyrion climbs the secret ladder to the Tower of the Hand, I think it is very significant that he steps over a burning log and out of a fireplace when he enters Tywin's bedchamber. This may be one of several symbolic Targaryen rebirths for Tyrion.

Tyrion also interacts with Moqorro and his fiery fingers. As Tyrion watches, two of the "fingers" go overboard during the storm.

I don't think we have seen fAegon interact much with fire. I recall that Jon Connington stands the "night watch" by himself on the boat, however, tending a brazier. Jon Connington is the man to watch in those chapters, not fAegon, in my opinion. (I'm not saying that Connington is a hidden Targ, just that he has a notable interaction with fire.)

I also think it's significant that the statues of the new gods burned by Melisandre and Stannis at Dragonstone were made from the masts of ships that brought Aegon the Conqueror to Westeros. Does this relate to the first Nymeria burning her ships after arriving at Dorne?

I don't think that the death of Viserys can be directly compared to death by fire. I'm not sure I can explain it, but he is killed by gold and by the crown he demanded, not by fire. You might also say that the murder weapon in that case was a belt (Drogo's belt with gold medallions is melted down) or, as Joffrey tells Sansa, his own sigil, dragons. (Because dragons are the name for gold coins and Viserys was killed with gold.)

I agree with the previous comments that Dany's rebirth in Drogo's funeral pyre was a unique, magical event.

[Haus Berlin]

44 minutes ago, Seams said:

I tried once to analyze hilts and scabbards mentioned in the books and wasn't able to find a pattern. But I think they are related to the hands that hold them. After Jon finds the obsidian cache at the Fist of the First Men, he makes a handle for a dagger blade for himself. He makes the handle out of wood and he describes it as "ugly". I think the ugly handle of the obsidian dagger is a deliberate match to Jon's scarred hand. The other blade that was described as ugly belonged to Gared, who had been maimed (lost ears, finger, etc.) by frostbite.

And I do think that dagger will be important as the books reach their conclusion.

When Tyrion climbs the secret ladder to the Tower of the Hand, I think it is very significant that he steps over a burning log and out of a fireplace when he enters Tywin's bedchamber. This may be one of several symbolic Targaryen rebirths for Tyrion.

Tyrion also interacts with Moqorro and his fiery fingers. As Tyrion watches, two of the "fingers" go overboard during the storm.

I don't think we have seen fAegon interact much with fire. I recall that Jon Connington stands the "night watch" by himself on the boat, however, tending a brazier. Jon Connington is the man to watch in those chapters, not fAegon, in my opinion. (I'm not saying that Connington is a hidden Targ, just that he has a notable interaction with fire.)

I also think it's significant that the statues of the new gods burned by Melisandre and Stannis at Dragonstone were made from the masts of ships that brought Aegon the Conqueror to Westeros. Does this relate to the first Nymeria burning her ships after arriving at Dorne?

I don't think that the death of Viserys can be directly compared to death by fire. I'm not sure I can explain it, but he is killed by gold and by the crown he demanded, not by fire. You might also say that the murder weapon in that case was a belt (Drogo's belt with gold medallions is melted down) or, as Joffrey tells Sansa, his own sigil, dragons. (Because dragons are the name for gold coins and Viserys was killed with gold.)

I agree with the previous comments that Dany's rebirth in Drogo's funeral pyre was a unique, magical event.

Dear Seams, nice to see you here. As usual your input is thought-provoking. Just what I was looking for. For example Tyrion. I forgot about the fireplace. Because of him, Jaime takes this way too - and discovered the dragon mosaic. Great work, Seams.

[Aline de Gavrillac]

8 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Targaryens are not immune to fire.

I'll say it again, because it's very important... Targaryens are not immune to fire. They can have an affinity to it, and to heat... I imagine Targaryens like hot baths, and pizza straight from the oven. But they can still be burned... a whole bunch burned up at Summerhall. Jon getting burned has nothing to do with his heritage, and says nothing about that heritage. 

When Dany's Dragons were hatched, she survived due to a one-off magical event. 

I disagree on the event being a one-off.  The same thing happened in Daznak's Pit.  Her hair burned to the skin.  It's impossible to have your hair burn like that and still have skin on your head.  The birth of the dragons from fossilized eggs might be a one-off event, but Dany's resistance to fire is not a one-off trait because it happened again.

Back to Jon.  It's no surprise to me that his hand was burned.  I never bought into the idea that Jon has Targaryen blood.  I don't think he does.

[Geddus]

5 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

I disagree on the event being a one-off.

I guess Martin was mistaken, then:

"TARGARYENS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE! The birth of Dany’s dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle. She is called The Unburnt because she walked into the flames and lived. But her brother sure as hell wasn’t immune to that molten gold."

Also, she burned her hands. Maybe only her scalp is fireproof.

[kissdbyfire]

7 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

I disagree on the event being a one-off.  The same thing happened in Daznak's Pit.  Her hair burned to the skin.  It's impossible to have your hair burn like that and still have skin on your head.  The birth of the dragons from fossilized eggs might be a one-off event, but Dany's resistance to fire is not a one-off trait because it happened again.

Back to Jon.  It's no surprise to me that his hand was burned.  I never bought into the idea that Jon has Targaryen blood.  I don't think he does.

She burned her hands in the pit. As to her hair burning but not her scalp, it's right there in the text, plain as day. 

“Dany hit him. “No,” she screamed, swinging the lash with all the strength that she had in her. The dragon jerked his head back. “No,” she screamed again. “NO!” The barbs raked along his snout. Drogon rose, his wings covering her in shadow. Dany swung the lash at his scaled belly, back and forth until her arm began to ache. His long serpentine neck bent like an archer’s bow. With a hisssssss, he spat black fire down at her. Dany darted underneath the flames, swinging the whip and shouting, “No, no, no. Get DOWN!” His answering roar was full of fear and fury, full of pain. His wings beat once, twice …

And you can like it or not, but Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. 

 

 

[Bitterblooms]

1 hour ago, Geddus said:

I guess Martin was mistaken, then:

"TARGARYENS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE! The birth of Dany’s dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle. She is called The Unburnt because she walked into the flames and lived. But her brother sure as hell wasn’t immune to that molten gold."

Also, she burned her hands. Maybe only her scalp is fireproof.

I'm not sure this quote definitively says Danaerys is not resistant to fire. The emphasis is that other Targa are not and that this Isn't how dragons were usually hatched. Her hands being the only thing that was burned from Daznak's put and the descriptions of her hair on fire seem to indicate that Dragon fire really doesn't burn her skin. But maybe Drogon"s blood did? Its definitely an interesting qiestion, and I don't think the GRRM quote settles it once and for all in regards to Danaerys herself. 

Who has a burned or maimed right hand? I think there was a thread about it forever ago, but I can't find it yet this morning; I'll keep looking. 

Jon

Danaerys

Qhorin

Quentin (which hand was it?)

Davos (which hand was it?) 

The blacksmith at the wall (which arm was it?) 

 

The way the text continually refers to it, I'm sure the burned hand is significant. Maybe just as a link to Danaerys, but it bears investigating for sure. 

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, Bitterblooms said:

The way the text continually refers to it, I'm sure the burned hand is significant. Maybe just as a link to Danaerys, but it bears investigating for sure. 

However, this sequence contradicts some of the mythology that has been set down in the Song of Ice and Fire series by George R.R. Martin. The author has dismissed the idea that Daenerys cannot be harmed by fire in the past. “TARGARYENS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE!,” he said during a discussion with fans. ‘The birth of Dany’s dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle. She is called The Unburnt because she walked into the flames and lived. But her brother sure as hell wasn’t immune to that molten gold.”

http://time.com/4336953/game-of-thrones-daenerys-targaryen-fire-immunity/

http://web.archive.org/web/20000615222300/http://www.eventhorizon.com/sfzine/chats/transcripts/031899.html

Do Targaryens become immune to fire once they "bond" to their dragons?
George_RR_Martin	Granny, thanks for asking that. It gives me a chance to clear up a common misconception. TARGARYENS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE! The birth of Dany's dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle. She is called The Unburnt because she walked into the flames and lived. But her brother sure as hell wasn't immune to that molten gold.
Revanshe	So she won't be able to do it again?
George_RR_Martin	Probably not.

[Geddus]

1 hour ago, Bitterblooms said:

I'm not sure this quote definitively says Danaerys is not resistant to fire. The emphasis is that other Targa are not and that this Isn't how dragons were usually hatched. Her hands being the only thing that was burned from Daznak's put and the descriptions of her hair on fire seem to indicate that Dragon fire really doesn't burn her skin.

I was referring to the poster's claim that the event wasn't an one time thing, which is directly contradicted by that quote I posted.

Anyway, Drogon's fire doesn't hit Dany directly. Her hair goes aflame, sure, but that doesn't mean anything, the fire could have gone out before it reached her skin (hair is not exactly gasoline after all). And she burns her hands with the spear IIRC, not with Drogon's blood.

[TheThreeEyedCow]

16 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Many good answers so far. This also sorta links to the "cup of ice and fire" metaphor discussion that has been recently had. There is plenty to suggest that Jon, despite his heritage, will choose to drink from the cup of ice, most likely as Bran is doing, and he and Bran will be the ones working together. The "ice dragon", so to speak.

A Game of Thrones - Jon VIII

"A scarred hand is nothing. On the Wall, you'll be wearing gloves often as not."

"As you say, my lord." It was not the thought of scars that troubled Jon; it was the rest of it. Maester Aemon had given him milk of the poppy, yet even so, the pain had been hideous. At first it had felt as if his hand were still aflame, burning day and night. Only plunging it into basins of snow and shaved ice gave any relief at all. Jon thanked the gods that no one but Ghost saw him writhing on his bed, whimpering from the pain. And when at last he did sleep, he dreamt, and that was even worse. In the dream, the corpse he fought had blue eyes, black hands, and his father's face, but he dared not tell Mormont that.

"Dywen and Hake returned last night," the Old Bear said. "They found no sign of your uncle, no more than the others did."

I think it means that Jon is destined to wield 'Ice'. That's very ambiguous by itself especially as there is/was a sword already named Ice. And there's literal ice everywhere. But my guess would be that Jon could potentially wield an 'Other' sword. Like the one used to deck Waymar Royce in the agot prologue. Or at least something similar. 

[The Fattest Leech]

5 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

I think it means that Jon is destined to wield 'Ice'. That's very ambiguous by itself especially as there is/was a sword already named Ice. And there's literal ice everywhere. But my guess would be that Jon could potentially wield an 'Other' sword. Like the one used to deck Waymar Royce in the agot prologue. Or at least something similar. 

Interesting and maybe possible. However, if Jon gets Ice the sword, then chances are he gets Dawn which is suspect as the original Ice. 

Dany has her flaming sword atop her pyramids with her in the form of Drogon, so that could be the balance. 

[TheThreeEyedCow]

29 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Interesting and maybe possible. However, if Jon gets Ice the sword, then chances are he gets Dawn which is suspect as the original Ice. 

Dany has her flaming sword atop her pyramids with her in the form of Drogon, so that could be the balance. 

Even with the sample chapters and foreshadowing all we have is plausible and implausible. 

Yes, the Daynes and their comet sword - Dawn: A piece of burning Ice forged into a blade. And I suppose that Dawn is described in a similar fashion to the blade used to slay Waymar Royce beyond the wall. Jon will lose Longclaw, it'll be prised from his corpse very quickly. I recall a certain knight belonging to Stannis who mentioned it once or twice and attempted to goad Jon into a fight. 

So Jon will need a sword. And the Daynes don't seem to be using theirs. So how in the name of Stannis' breeches will it find it's way to Jon's hand? I think this is where the trail goes dead.

Perhaps the Drogon = burning sword analogy works best. And Jon's burned hand is something that will enable him to touch the hot blooded, fire breathing monster? To warg, or merely to bond with a creature that once he/she doesn't like you will quickly turn you into a crispy Quentyn.  

[Ygrain]

5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

 With a hisssssss, he spat black fire down at her. Dany darted underneath the flames,

Exactly. Dragon fire never ever touched her. 

3 hours ago, Geddus said:

Anyway, Drogon's fire doesn't hit Dany directly. Her hair goes aflame, sure, but that doesn't mean anything, the fire could have gone out before it reached her skin (hair is not exactly gasoline after all).

There have been quite a couple of discussions on this. People can get nasty burns from burning hair but it seems that it depends on the quality of hair (fine straight hair burns faster) and on air flow. Theoretically, if her hair was streaming behind her as Drogon was beating his wings and taking flight, the flame wouldn't touch her skin and would go out on its own as it ran out of "fuel" (basically, the same what happens when you light a match and hold it with the burnt part up) and the flame was pushed off her head by air flow. Alternately, it could have been conveniently doused by a gush of Drogon's wings right before it could burn her.

3 hours ago, Geddus said:

And she burns her hands with the spear IIRC, not with Drogon's blood.

You remember correctly, it was the spear.

3 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

I disagree on the event being a one-off.  The same thing happened in Daznak's Pit.  Her hair burned to the skin.  It's impossible to have your hair burn like that and still have skin on your head.  The birth of the dragons from fossilized eggs might be a one-off event, but Dany's resistance to fire is not a one-off trait because it happened again.

Daznak Pit is not the same as the pyre. In the pyre, her clothes burnt off and the soles of her feet sustained no damage from walking on hot embers. In the Pit, she burnt her hands badly on the iron spear that she tore out of Drogon's neck and her undertunic, while suffering all kinds of damage during her stay in the Dothraki sea, is not burnt, i.e. was not in contact with her burning hair (I hope we can agree that there are no magic inflammable tunics, right?). That supports what I wrote above - her burning hair must have been streaming behind her in the wind created by Drogon's wings and subsequent flight. And the effect of the wind could also protect her scalp from getting burnt.

[The Commentator]

4 hours ago, Geddus said:

I was referring to the poster's claim that the event wasn't an one time thing, which is directly contradicted by that quote I posted.

Anyway, Drogon's fire doesn't hit Dany directly. Her hair goes aflame, sure, but that doesn't mean anything, the fire could have gone out before it reached her skin (hair is not exactly gasoline after all). And she burns her hands with the spear IIRC, not with Drogon's blood.

That quote of yours does not prove anything.  George was intentionally vague.  The hatching of the dragons was a unique event.  Dany's ability to resist burns is not.  Burning hair that close to the skin will cause major scalp burns and scarring.  Wind in the hair is not going to explain away why she didn't burn.  The event at the Pit of Daznak, her ability to take baths in scalding water,  are definitive proof of Dany's ability to remain unburnt.  

[Geddus]

6 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

That quote of yours does not prove anything.  George was intentionally vague.  The hatching of the dragons was a unique event.  Dany's ability to resist burns is not.  Burning hair that close to the skin will cause major scalp burns and scarring.  Wind in the hair is not going to explain away why she didn't burn.  The event at the Pit of Daznak, her ability to take baths in scalding water,  are definitive proof of Dany's ability to remain unburnt.  

The quote proves that it was a unique event.

Her burned hands are proof of her ability to remain unburnt? Makes sense. And I guess her superpowers have gotten stronger since this time they extended to her clothes.

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Geddus said:

The quote proves that it was a unique event.

Her burned hands are proof of her ability to remain unburnt? Makes sense. And I guess her superpowers have gotten stronger since this time they extended to her clothes.

Yeah, it's awesome and very logical.

[Haus Berlin]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

However, this sequence contradicts some of the mythology that has been set down in the Song of Ice and Fire series by George R.R. Martin. The author has dismissed the idea that Daenerys cannot be harmed by fire in the past. “TARGARYENS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE!,” he said during a discussion with fans. ‘The birth of Dany’s dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle. She is called The Unburnt because she walked into the flames and lived. But her brother sure as hell wasn’t immune to that molten gold.”

http://time.com/4336953/game-of-thrones-daenerys-targaryen-fire-immunity/

http://web.archive.org/web/20000615222300/http://www.eventhorizon.com/sfzine/chats/transcripts/031899.html

Do Targaryens become immune to fire once they "bond" to their dragons?
George_RR_Martin	Granny, thanks for asking that. It gives me a chance to clear up a common misconception. TARGARYENS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE! The birth of Dany's dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle. She is called The Unburnt because she walked into the flames and lived. But her brother sure as hell wasn't immune to that molten gold.
Revanshe	So she won't be able to do it again?
George_RR_Martin	Probably not.

Thanks for providing us with a pretty direct answer from GRRM, dear LynnS. This definitely gives a push to some yet undecided matters. It is now easier for me to see that this burned hand is a way to remember Jon what his real purpose is. The Fattest Leech gave a brilliant quote for such a train of thought. The realm's true threat can't be fought with swords but with forces which are less controllable. Just like Jaime's lost sword hand remembers him that you won't close peace with swords. Justitia is a maiden with a sword in her right hand. Jaime blindly trusts Brienne with his sword and even though he starts to act dispassionate, there is still need of a scale to win justice. It is Lady Justice's left hand that hold the scales. Other than Ned Stark thought that power should not lie into one person's hands. Jon learned something similiar when he got his hand burned. Ned Stark did not kill a deserter with his sword, but the truth.

[Chris Mormont]

There are a few points in the story where Dany mentions or is described as not being affected by heat.  specifically when she bathes.

George is constantly mentioning Jon's hand, as if to remind us that he was burnt.

Not all Targs rode dragons and so perhaps there is a connection between being able to ride a dragon and the heat resistant powers that Dany has.