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Narrative Wise, Did Robb Need to be a King?


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8 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I don't know about Tywin. He was probably viewed as someone you could do business with, but it would be an utter fool who trusted him completely.

I don't know, really. I think he's viewed as perfectly trustworthy, just not someone you want to get mad. I don't know of one example of Tywin not living up to his word, or anyone saying he didn't.

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On 25/03/2018 at 4:17 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Of course you are. Your original point was about trust, not about who was more popular. Trust has nothing to do with popularity, he is as trustworthy as most of his peers his 20 years of Hand is a point of reference for most people. 

Yes but I've also pointed out his role in the Rebellion, which raises questions of trust.

On 25/03/2018 at 4:17 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Clearly not everyone but the same is also true about Robert, he complains about being labelled a usurper behind his back.

We're not debating Robert here. Anyway, the point about his being called "Kingslayer" is that they constantly refer to how he broke his oath. 

On 25/03/2018 at 4:17 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Right, for his deformity and lifestyle not because he is a Lannister. Had Tyrion been an Arryn and acted the same way he would still be despised.

That was my point. 

On 25/03/2018 at 4:17 AM, Bernie Mac said:

They dislike Cersei, Renly because he is convinced she will end him (either his life or his power and influence) while Stannis thinks she has cuckolded the King

Yep...

On 25/03/2018 at 4:17 AM, Bernie Mac said:

That is not why Ned dislikes them. Ned is an incredibly honourable person (even if some of his actions have contradicted this) and his distaste with Tywin and Jaime is not them staying out of the war, it is Jaime killing the man he was sworn to protect and Tywin's using duplicitous means to enter the citty and then order the murders of royal children. 

Much of the realm is in the dark about Tywin's role in these murders while Ned's honour is not the norm. 

Catelyn opines in GOT that Ned never forgave the Lannisters for coming late to Robert's cause. I'm sure there are a plethora of opinions among lords who took part in the rebellion, from not caring about the Lannisters' late arrival, to those that agree with Ned. Their late arrival would surely have been noted by anyone of sense though.

The rest of the realm seem to have a pretty good idea about Tywin's role in the murder. At the very least they know it was Lannister men who did the deed, and would be idiots to at least not suspect Tywin's involvement.

On 25/03/2018 at 4:17 AM, Bernie Mac said:

At no point did I claim she liked them, I was responding to your claim that everyone disliked them, which is not the case as we see from Cat.

There's a direct contradiction there. 

On 25/03/2018 at 4:17 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Joffrey is not a Lannister, he's thought of as a Barathon (and later by some as a Waters). Robb's dislike of Joffrey Baratheon has nothing to do with who his grandfather is.

It's pretty obvious from what I said that I know Robb simply disliked Joffery for personal reasons. Whether he picked up a general dislike of the Lannisters from his father, we don't know. I was just saying I wouldn't be surprised. 

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On 25/03/2018 at 5:21 AM, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

I don't know, really. I think he's viewed as perfectly trustworthy, just not someone you want to get mad. I don't know of one example of Tywin not living up to his word, or anyone saying he didn't.

True enough. I imagine Tywin knows the value of making a good deal and sticking to it. At the same time, he's widely known to be clever and ruthless, which would probably mean anyone in business with him would keep an eye on him. 

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22 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

True enough. I imagine Tywin knows the value of making a good deal and sticking to it. At the same time, he's widely known to be clever and ruthless, which would probably mean anyone in business with him would keep an eye on him. 

I'm sure people keep an eye on him, but that's just good business sense. Keep an eye on everyone you're dealing with.

That said, once a deal is struck, I'm sure Tywin plays the long game, knowing that if he should break the deal, it could well ruin other deals he'd like to make. We've seen what kind of a reputation oathbreakers get, most notably with Jaime; he broke an oath to a man that half the realm wanted to see dead, and is still reviled for it, so it really doesn't matter with whom it is that you break your word. I'm sure Tywin knows better than to go around breaking deals, at least not unless it's really important.

Or, at least, he doesn't let the tale spread that he broke his word. Say, by murdering everyone who knows that he gave his word in the first place. But I don't know if he's done that, either.

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2 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

I'm sure people keep an eye on him, but that's just good business sense. Keep an eye on everyone you're dealing with.

That said, once a deal is struck, I'm sure Tywin plays the long game, knowing that if he should break the deal, it could well ruin other deals he'd like to make. We've seen what kind of a reputation oathbreakers get, most notably with Jaime; he broke an oath to a man that half the realm wanted to see dead, and is still reviled for it, so it really doesn't matter with whom it is that you break your word. I'm sure Tywin knows better than to go around breaking deals, at least not unless it's really important.

Or, at least, he doesn't let the tale spread that he broke his word. Say, by murdering everyone who knows that he gave his word in the first place. But I don't know if he's done that, either.

I think that's largely correct, but I would probably add the caveat that if Tywin saw a much greater advantage in breaking his word weighed against the blow to his reputation, he word break his word.

However, of course, a lannister always pays his debts. 

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On 25/03/2018 at 5:21 AM, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

I don't know, really. I think he's viewed as perfectly trustworthy, just not someone you want to get mad. I don't know of one example of Tywin not living up to his word, or anyone saying he didn't.

I would argue that the two aren't mutually exclusive.

When Jaime's trying to bribe Urswyck, he thinks that Tywin would absolutely give him the gold that Jaime promised him......and then hang him.

Same with Roose. While we'll likely never know all the details of their negotiations, it seems obvious that Tywin promised a "Stark" marriage to make Ramsay Lord of Winterfell. At the same time he gave Tyrion an actual Stark and promised Winterfell to him. He was clearly planning to depose the Boltons at some point in the future but, as long as they ruled for a while, he'd still have kept his word.

It's been a while since I've read the books but I'm sure he was planning something similar with the Westerlings too. Promising them "Joy" but not telling them that she's the bastard daughter of his brother.

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On March 24, 2018 at 3:53 AM, Bernie Mac said:

I think he did, most nobles would have wanted to rule, a 16 year old Robb who resented the spoilt shit Joffrey (even before he killed his father) would have hated the fact that he had to serve Joffrey as King, it is human nature. Kings/Bosses/Leaders all complain about power when things are not going well, how they were forced into it yet all seem more than willing to take it when offered it, or to fight for it when someone else wants to take it away from them. 

Both Robb and Stannis wanted to be King, one may regret it, the other convince himself that he was the only option, but both had the choice and took it. 

edit; in fact that will be the distinction between the likes of Jon and Robb and Stannis, Jon willingly refused Winterfell when offered. He is probably one of the few people who would turn down such an opportunity.

Good point. People's feelings on certian things are often complicated. I mean likely such a notion appealed to Robb for the fact he's been taught by his society to want to increase his family's station in life and want for glory. Robert though he says he was forced to become king laid declared he would after killing Rheagar.  never really took steps to really leave. Stannis says he's fighting for throne for duty; but honestly it's unlikely he's a feeling of slight yearning of trying to get out of Robert's shadow. I honestly think he hated Robert as matter of fact. 

 

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Having thought about this a lot, my opinion is yes, narrative wise Robb did have to be a king. The North and Riverlands breaking off like they did wasn't ever viable, but Robb being pushed into this position by other lords meant he had fewer options as to courses he could take. This pushed Robb to his, imo, inevitable death. Robb being declared king was what really destroyed House Stark.

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