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A clue from GRRM. Could Littlefinger know about fAegon?


Daendrew

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Littlefinger has the Targaryen tapestries with portraits of Targs.  Why would that be important to him unless he does know something about Aegon.  Tyrion has seen the tapestries as well.

I thought the tapestries were Robert's hunting scenes?

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14 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I thought the tapestries were Robert's hunting scenes?

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A Feast for Crows - Jaime IV

"Lord Lancel hopes one day to cover them with hangings," said Ottomore. "Scenes of piety and devotion."

Piety and devotion. It was all he could do not to laugh. The walls had been bare on his first visit too. Tyrion had pointed out the squares of darker stone where tapestries had once hung. Ser Raymun could remove the hangings, but not the marks they'd left. Later, the Imp had slipped a handful of stags to one of Darry's serving men for the key to the cellar where the missing tapestries were hidden. He showed them to Jaime by the light of a candle, grinning; woven portraits of all the Targaryen kings, from the first Aegon to the second Aenys. "If I tell Robert, mayhaps he'll make me Lord of Darry," the dwarf said, chortling.

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A Feast for Crows - Alayne I

"Then give it to Lord Frey."

Petyr laughed. "Perhaps I shall. Or better still, to our sweet Cersei. Though I should not speak harshly of her, she is sending me some splendid tapestries. Isn't that kind of her?"

I doubt Petyr is interested in the tapestries of hunting scenes.

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29 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I doubt Petyr is interested in the tapestries of hunting scenes.

More detail is gone into in Winds:

Spoiler

" Lord Nestor was showing Lady Waxley his prizetapestries, with their scenes of hunt and chase. The same panels had once hung in the Red Keep ofKing’s Landing, when Robert sat the Iron Throne. Joffrey had them taken down and they had languishedin some cellar until Petyr Baelish arranged for them to be brought to the Vale as a gift for Nestor Royce.Not only were the hangings beautiful, but the High Steward delighted in telling anyone who’d listen thatthey had once belonged to a king."

I think that's definitive to be honest. 

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15 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

More detail is gone into in Winds:

  Hide contents

" Lord Nestor was showing Lady Waxley his prizetapestries, with their scenes of hunt and chase. The same panels had once hung in the Red Keep ofKing’s Landing, when Robert sat the Iron Throne. Joffrey had them taken down and they had languishedin some cellar until Petyr Baelish arranged for them to be brought to the Vale as a gift for Nestor Royce.Not only were the hangings beautiful, but the High Steward delighted in telling anyone who’d listen thatthey had once belonged to a king."

I think that's definitive to be honest. 

Yes, it looks that way.  Although we are also told that the Targaryen portraits were also part of Robert's collection of tapestries.  Given that there is so little portraiture in Westeros; these tapestries would be far more valuable than hunting scenes if they can be used in some way to verify lineage.  If they came into LF's possession; he would keep the for himself.  Where are they now?  My guess is that LF has them.

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4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Although we are also told that the Targaryen portraits were also part of Robert's collection of tapestries.

Are we? The quote you gave shows that Darry owned the tapestries, and Tyrion found them. The implication, in my opinion, is that neither Tyrion or Jaime told Robert about them, they seemed to treat the whole thing as a joke.

Irrespective, while it's plausible that LF has tapestries showing the Targaryen kings, it seems a bit round-about. He can know or find out that Aegon is an imposter without them. Having pictures of someone's relatives (particularly tapestries, which are hardly photographs) doesn't really help unless the person looks drastically different, which Aegon doesn't. If his appearance can fool one of his father's best friends, it can fool someone who never met any members of his family who happens to own some tapestries. 

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Yes, it looks that way.  Although we are also told that the Targaryen portraits were also part of Robert's collection of tapestries.  Given that there is so little portraiture in Westeros; these tapestries would be far more valuable than hunting scenes if they can be used in some way to verify lineage.  If they came into LF's possession; he would keep the for himself.  Where are they now?  My guess is that LF has them.

Those tapestries and Targaryen portraits are at Castle Darry. LF specifically asks for Robert's hunting tapestries.

Through the high narrow windows of the Red Keep's cavernous throne room, the light of sunset spilled across the floor, laying dark red stripes upon the walls where the heads of dragons had once hung. Now the stone was covered with hunting tapestries, vivid with greens and browns and blues, and yet still it seemed to Ned Stark that the only color in the hall was the red of blood. (Eddard XI, AGOT)

The walls of the throne room had been stripped bare, the hunting tapestries that King Robert loved taken down and stacked in the corner in an untidy heap. (Sansa V, AGOT)

"Not as yet. In truth, he seems quite unconcerned. His last letter mentions the rebels only briefly before beseeching me to ship him some old tapestries of Robert's." (Cersei IV, AFFC)

Piety and devotion. It was all he could do not to laugh. The walls had been bare on his first visit too. Tyrion had pointed out the squares of darker stone where tapestries had once hung. Ser Raymun could remove the hangings, but not the marks they'd left. Later, the Imp had slipped a handful of stags to one of Darry's serving men for the key to the cellar where the missing tapestries were hidden. He showed them to Jaime by the light of a candle, grinning; woven portraits of all the Targaryen kings, from the first Aegon to the second Aenys. "If I tell Robert, mayhaps he'll make me Lord of Darry," the dwarf said, chortling. (Jaime IV, AFFC)

That said, there's a lot of emphasis put on Robert's tapestries in the first book and Ned's POV, so there's got to be something interesting in them. Arys Oakheart gives a description of the tapestries that belong to his family, and they are scenes of war with the Dornish with his ancestors. So there's got to be something there that Littlefinger wants people to notice, maybe?

 

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Are there any indications of Robert's taperstry being Valyrian

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Yes, it looks that way.  Although we are also told that the Targaryen portraits were also part of Robert's collection of tapestries.  Given that there is so little portraiture in Westeros; these tapestries would be far more valuable than hunting scenes if they can be used in some way to verify lineage.  If they came into LF's possession; he would keep the for himself.  Where are they now?  My guess is that LF has them.

I don't think this is the case. There is the Patchface "under the sea" idea which may be connected to the drowned god or the lord of fire. And given whom he gives the tapesrty ( Waymar Royce's father ) i think Littlefinger is "in touch" with the drowned mysteries. If Varys stands for the fire, Littlefinger is a cold player.

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15 hours ago, Daendrew said:

Could Littlefinger know about fAegon?

It’s a difficult question. I guess it depends where the Merling King has been and what Oswell has heard.

A Feast for Crows - Alayne II    The Merling King's returned to Gulltown, and old Oswell had some tales to tell./

Merling King was the ship that moved Sansa from KL to the Fingers in SoS.    Arya spotted the Merling King in Braavos during FfC.

Around KL rumor has it that Stannis has hired the Golden Company, while another rumor says the GC is headed to Volantis.

A Feast for Crows - Cersei IV      "Whilst we await Lord Walder's death, there is another matter," said Aurane Waters. "The Golden Company has broken its contract with Myr. Around the docks I've heard men say that Lord Stannis has hired them and is bringing them across the sea."  <snip> "Little enough," Cersei assured him. "Lord Qyburn has spoken to the crew of that Myrish galley in the bay. They claim the Golden Company is making for Volantis. If they mean to cross to Westeros, they are marching in the wrong direction."/

Later in DwD there are reports that the Golden Company is/has landing/ed.   And Jon Con says let them think it is Stannis’ work.

A Dance with Dragons - Cersei I     "We have had reports of sellswords landing all over the south," Ser Kevan was saying. "Tarth, the Stepstones, Cape Wrath … where Stannis found the coin to hire a free company I would dearly love to know./

A Dance with Dragons - The Griffin Reborn       Even before they had sailed from Volon Therys, he had instructed his captains to show no banners during these first attacks—not Prince Aegon's three-headed dragon, nor his own griffins, nor the skulls and golden battle standards of the company. Let the Lannisters suspect Stannis Baratheon, pirates from the Stepstones, outlaws out of the woods, or whoever else they cared to blame. If the reports that reached King's Landing were confused and contradictory, so much the better./

I’m going say I don’t think LF knows about Varys’ Aegon plan. Since FfC and DwD run in tandem it is sometimes for me to know what is happening when. There is no Sansa chapters in DwD so I’m going to assume what LF knows is in reference to the rumors and goings on taking place in KL. :unsure:

 

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I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Littlefinger knows exactly what Varys is up to, as he seems to have been anticipating him at every stage. That doesn’t mean, however, that he knows (if it is in fact the case) that Aegon is a fake, but I’d be surprised if he wasn’t aware of the general scheme to place Aegon/Dany on the throne.

What’s interesting for me is how little Varys knows about LF’s plans. We know from GOT that Varys has no idea what he’s up to. From Varys’s conversations with Ned (which, granted, can’t simply be taken at face value), it is suggested that he thinks the Lannisters were behind Jon Arryn’s death, which suggests he isn’t aware of the depth of Littlefinger’s machinations.

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1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

That said, there's a lot of emphasis put on Robert's tapestries in the first book and Ned's POV, so there's got to be something interesting in them. Arys Oakheart gives a description of the tapestries that belong to his family, and they are scenes of war with the Dornish with his ancestors. So there's got to be something there that Littlefinger wants people to notice, maybe?

I definitely think the tapestries are important for some reason, as they are mentioned too many times, and described too specifically, to be disregarded. Unfortunately I haven't yet been convinced by any of the theories as to their relevance advanced by scholars on this forum. It's one of those little mysteries that nags at me. 

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9 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

If the tapestries have anything to do with lineage then it would be about Roberts children not Aegon.  LF does have Mya.

GRRM is very much focused on english inheritage law and if it is good for anything, then that not acknowledged bastards do not count. As far as we know he has only ever acknowledged one bastard and the entire realm knows who that is. Even Stannis thinks Edric is the proof. There is really not much about Mya Littlefinger can use. Plus she is female.

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7 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Interesting discussion on the tapestries, and being that they're originally Roberts, could they be showing generations of black-haired Baratheons out hunting?

Ah, that's a fair point...

7 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Though that cat is well and truly out of the bag by now....

However so is that.

Littlefinger could have exposed the Twincest any time he wanted. He had access to Barra, and probably knew about Gendry too. He certainly could have arranged for Cersei and Jaime to have been discovered, I would have thought. He chose not to, because it suited him to edge the Starks and Lannisters towards conflict rather than simply tear Cersei down. I get the distinct impression LF is happy having Cersei in charge, at least for now, because she figuratively and literally lets him get away with murder.

And like you say, pretty much everyone that matters either knows about or suspects the Twincest, and it hasn't really effected the Game much. Littlefinger producing some tapestries and saying "look, they all have black hair" would be an unnecessary risk for no concrete gain. For now, remember, his position in both the Riverlands and the Vale rests on promotions given to him in Joffery's name by Tywin and Cersei.

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28 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Ah, that's a fair point...

However so is that.

Littlefinger could have exposed the Twincest any time he wanted. He had access to Barra, and probably knew about Gendry too. He certainly could have arranged for Cersei and Jaime to have been discovered, I would have thought. He chose not to, because it suited him to edge the Starks and Lannisters towards conflict rather than simply tear Cersei down. I get the distinct impression LF is happy having Cersei in charge, at least for now, because she figuratively and literally lets him get away with murder.

And like you say, pretty much everyone that matters either knows about or suspects the Twincest, and it hasn't really effected the Game much. Littlefinger producing some tapestries and saying "look, they all have black hair" would be an unnecessary risk for no concrete gain. For now, remember, his position in both the Riverlands and the Vale rests on promotions given to him in Joffery's name by Tywin and Cersei.

Yep, this is all true, but that was the only real 'data point' I could connect it too. Anyway, I've been mulling it over whilst doing some washing up, and came back for this:

1) we don't know how old the tapestries are

2) we don't know who commissioned them

3) we don't know what they show

4) we don't know if they are generic 'hunting is cool' type pictures, or specific 'this was a great hunt we all went on' sort of images

So, I might imagine - and this is pure speculation and grasping at straws, I admit ;) - perhaps one of them shows a specific known event, with someone present who was either supposed to be somewhere else, or already dead or something along those lines. I've racked my brains and come up blank on that, but does anyone here recall any famous hunting deaths/accidents, or particularly famous hunts? What I'm grasping at is the scenes might record or disprove an alibi of someone in the past??? I don't know for myself, but hope if I chuck the idea out it might spark someone off.

(Oh, and I really don't want to hear about 'stitches in time' and one of the scenes being 'Needleshopped' to show Lancel with the strongwine :D)

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15 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

1) we don't know how old the tapestries are

2) we don't know who commissioned them

3) we don't know what they show

4) we don't know if they are generic 'hunting is cool' type pictures, or specific 'this was a great hunt we all went on' sort of images

All entirely correct.

15 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

So, I might imagine - and this is pure speculation and grasping at straws, I admit ;) - perhaps one of them shows a specific known event, with someone present who was either supposed to be somewhere else, or already dead or something along those lines. I've racked my brains and come up blank on that, but does anyone here recall any famous hunting deaths/accidents, or particularly famous hunts? What I'm grasping at is the scenes might record or disprove an alibi of sometime in the past??? I don't know for myself, but hope if I chuck the idea out it might spark someone off.

In my opinion, the tapestries are relevant, but not necessarily for what's depicted in them. It may be that the act of transporting them was important (I seem to remember theories that someone/something was hidden in them in transit from KL). It may be that his giving them to Nestor Royce had some significance we can't quite fathom (beyond the obvious ingratiation angle). 

It would be quite good misdirection for the tapestries to be important, but what is shown on them is not.

15 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Oh, and I really don't want to hear about 'stitches in time' and one of the scenes being 'Needleshopped' to show Lancel with the strongwine

That's the first I've heard of that Lancel theory, and I love the idea! The tapestries were made by some kind of paparazzi weaver hiding in the bushes desperately stitching what he saw. It would be a genuinely hilarious enterprise in trolling if Lancel/Cersei walked into the throne room one day, and a little picture of Lancel drugging Robert had been added to the tapestry. 

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