Black Crow

Heresy 207 :skinchanging

399 posts in this topic

11 hours ago, Matthew. said:

If anything, I think the evidence points in the opposite direction when it comes to Ghost.
 

Not necessarily, while noting the evidence offered, the necromancy and how it is regarded by the tree-huggers suggests that its part of the extremism which has screwed the seasons, just as Mel is looking to end the world in a cleansing fire

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13 hours ago, Matthew. said:

If anything, I think the evidence points in the opposite direction when it comes to Ghost.

Ghost is the one that alerts Jon that Othor is on the loose - even helping Jon to save Mormont from Othor -, it is Ghost that leads Jon to the dragonglass cache, Ghost that refuses to enter the Fist--which is said to "smell cold," a description that is also applied to the wights and Craster. Given that undead Othor is said to have the 'cold smell' upon him so strongly that it is making Jon gag, I might go so far as to say that Ghost has exhibited a strong dislike for the cold faction.

Yup. I quite agree.

I would also add that imo “ice” and “fire” aren’t “sides”, but rather two types of magic. 

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Not necessarily, while noting the evidence offered, the necromancy and how it is regarded by the tree-huggers suggests that its part of the extremism which has screwed the seasons, just as Mel is looking to end the world in a cleansing fire

To elaborate, I'm not suggesting that the wights are disconnected from the magic of the old gods, merely that I think Bloodraven and the CotF truly are opposed to the wights and the Others, and that the CotF want to fix the mess that they helped to create; the "sword without a hilt" interpretation of the Others.

In addition to the aforementioned hostility that Ghost displays toward the wights, I think Coldhands' behavior toward his elk - particularly when forced to slaughter it - demonstrates a distinction between Bloodraven's lot and the cold lot, with the latter being irreverent of life--the brutality of the wights towards Sam's horse when Sam and Gilly are attacked, and the wide net of death the Others have cast, some of which Bran glimpses during Bran III of ADWD when he sees ravens frozen to death in their trees, a polar bear wight, etc.

In that sense, I don't disagree that the direwolves may be something of an invitation, an attempt to push the Starks toward becoming the "hilt" to the Others' "sword." Where we possibly differ is that I don't think Bran (and perhaps later, Jon) should be wary of aligning with the old gods, I think the old gods should have been wary of aligning with the Starks--both in antiquity, and in the present.

Edited by Matthew.

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Posted (edited)

21 hours ago, Matthew. said:

To elaborate, I'm not suggesting that the wights are disconnected from the magic of the old gods, merely that I think Bloodraven and the CotF truly are opposed to the wights and the Others, and that the CotF want to fix the mess that they helped to create; the "sword without a hilt" interpretation of the Others.

In addition to the aforementioned hostility that Ghost displays toward the wights, I think Coldhands' behavior toward his elk - particularly when forced to slaughter it - demonstrates a distinction between Bloodraven's lot and the cold lot, with the latter being irreverent of life--the brutality of the wights towards Sam's horse when Sam and Gilly are attacked, and the wide net of death the Others have cast, some of which Bran glimpses during Bran III of ADWD when he sees ravens frozen to death in their trees, a polar bear wight, etc.

In that sense, I don't disagree that the direwolves may be something of an invitation, an attempt to push the Starks toward becoming the "hilt" to the Others' "sword." Where we possibly differ is that I don't think Bran (and perhaps later, Jon) should be wary of aligning with the old gods, I think the old gods should have been wary of aligning with the Starks--both in antiquity, and in the present.

That's certainly possible and I don't think that we're too far apart on this one. I disagree with Feather in her suggestion that:“ice” and “fire” aren’t “sides”, but rather two types of magic. Its deep magic; and the balance has been upset by the necromancy used by some on both sides - your sword without a hilt. Ice and Fire are not of themselves evil and what is going down was set in train a long time time ago, and it now needs to be resolved, not by Azor Ahai or any other prophesied hero winning the ultimate battle over the Ice [cf. both Mel and Master Benero's hopes of an apocalypse] but by Ice and Fire working together as implied by the Reeds' oath.

Edited by Black Crow

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Posted (edited)

On 08/04/2018 at 9:34 AM, Black Crow said:

Officially its still the case that Jon is half brother to the other children of Winterfell, whatever the truth of our theories.

I quoted the passage as pertaining to this business of whether Ghost is truly related to the others and there certainly seems room for wondering whether he is a cuckoo in the nest - which may be connected with the killing of the she-wolf. 

As to Greywind, I can recall though can't quote a conversation to that effect amongst the wolves themselves, although it would be a wolfdream in a Bran chapter. It needn't necessarily be a Greywind reference [after all this is the same interview where Shaw asked why the direwolves had been wiped out north of the Wall], but to the best of my recollection it was as described.

Ah, I see - so we are in agreement after all. :cheers:

It's also funny how things come back around; in light of Ghost potentially not being part of the litter, there would then indeed be a need to have killed the mother direwolf, after all. 

 

On 08/04/2018 at 9:24 PM, Matthew. said:

If anything, I think the evidence points in the opposite direction when it comes to Ghost.

Ghost is the one that alerts Jon that Othor is on the loose - even helping Jon to save Mormont from Othor -, it is Ghost that leads Jon to the dragonglass cache, Ghost that refuses to enter the Fist--which is said to "smell cold," a description that is also applied to the wights and Craster. Given that undead Othor is said to have the 'cold smell' upon him so strongly that it is making Jon gag, I might go so far as to say that Ghost has exhibited a strong dislike for the cold faction.

... and a clear affinity for the hot faction:

Quote

 

She gazed at Ghost. “May I touch your …wolf?” The thought made Jon uneasy. “Best not.”
“He will not harm me. You call him Ghost, yes?”
“Yes, but …”
“Ghost.” Melisandre made the word a song. The direwolf padded toward her. Wary, he stalked about her in a circle, sniffing. When she held out her hand he smelled that too, then shoved his nose against her fingers. Jon let out a white breath. “He is not always so …”
“… warm? Warmth calls to warmth, Jon Snow
.” Her eyes were two red stars, shining in the dark. At her throat, her ruby gleamed, a third eye glowing brighter than the others. Jon had seen Ghost’s eyes blazing red the same way, when they caught the light just right.

“Ghost,” he called. “To me.”
The direwolf looked at him as if he were a stranger.
Jon frowned in disbelief. “That’s … queer.”
“You think so?” She knelt and scratched Ghost behind his ear. “Your Wall is a queer place, but there is power here, if you will use it. Power in you, and in this beast. You resist it, and that is your mistake. Embrace it. Use it.”
I am not a wolf, he thought. “And how would I do that?”
“I can show you.” Melisandre draped one slender arm over Ghost, and the direwolf licked her face. “The Lord of Light in his wisdom made us male and female, two parts of a greater whole. In our joining there is power. Power to make life. Power to make light. Power to cast shadows.”

-Jon, ADWD

 

Ghost comes to Mel when called but refuses Jon,  his eyes exactly match her ruby (which just so happens to be referred to as her third eye - wow, I never caught that before, has this been discussed?), and he is literally licking her face. Mel doesn't seem surprised and explains to Jon that "warmth calls to warmth".  

Edited by MaesterSam

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, MaesterSam said:

... and a clear affinity for the hot faction:

Ghost comes to Mel when called but refuses Jon,  his eyes exactly match her ruby (which just so happens to be referred to as her third eye - wow, I never caught that before, has this been discussed?), and he is literally licking her face. Mel doesn't seem surprised and explains to Jon that "warmth calls to warmth".  

I'm not sure that its a genuine affinity, I had the clear impression that Mel was working some kind of scam. What may be significant is the ruby and rather suspect she was pulling a switch with her existing glamour so that she appeared to Ghost to be Jon

Edited by Black Crow

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6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'm not sure that its a genuine affinity, I had the clear impression that Mel was working some kind of scam. What may be significant is the ruby and rather suspect she was pulling a switch with her existing glamour so that she appeared to Ghost to be Jon

I'm less inclined to think that Ghost can't see through a glamor because of Arya's experience with the dog at the docks in Braavos, who does recognize her.  But I think this might have something to do with smell.  Melisandre might have certain scents available in her bag of tricks that might cause Ghost to take a friendly attitude, perhaps even lick her face. 

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22 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm less inclined to think that Ghost can't see through a glamor because of Arya's experience with the dog at the docks in Braavos, who does recognize her.  But I think this might have something to do with smell.  Melisandre might have certain scents available in her bag of tricks that might cause Ghost to take a friendly attitude, perhaps even lick her face. 

I'm mindful here of the episode in the room with Mel. Mance and Jon, where there's that curious line about her saying a word and her two listeners each hearing something different, neither of which was the word actually spoken. There's no explanation given for this by GRRM other than the fact it shows that different people can hear and presumably see only what she wants them too.

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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, MaesterSam said:

Ah, I see - so we are in agreement after all. :cheers:

It's also funny how things come back around; in light of Ghost potentially not being part of the litter, there would then indeed be a need to have killed the mother direwolf, after all. 

 

... and a clear affinity for the hot faction:

Ghost comes to Mel when called but refuses Jon,  his eyes exactly match her ruby (which just so happens to be referred to as her third eye - wow, I never caught that before, has this been discussed?), and he is literally licking her face. Mel doesn't seem surprised and explains to Jon that "warmth calls to warmth".  

Melisandre is using spells and glamours here- and Jon for one smells it. This isn't true affection. And Jon points out elsewhere that Ghost is likethe trees, the old gods, and then specifically says "not like Melisandre".

Melisandre is Jon's perfumed senechal that he must watch out for. She has been using her powders and spells in heavier force while at the wall, as she notes when she describes how her supplies are low. Plus, the wall gives off it's own magic that she is vampire sucking off of.

ADDING:

  • ADWD/ Jon VI- Ch 28: In the shadow of the Wall, the direwolf brushed up against his fingers. For half a heartbeat the night came alive with a thousand smells, and Jon Snow heard the crackle of the crust breaking on a patch of old snow. Someone was behind him, he realized suddenly. Someone who smelled warm as a summer day.

When he turned he saw Ygritte.

...Surprise made him recoil from her. "Lady Melisandre." He took a step backwards. "I mistook you for someone else." At night all robes are grey. Yet suddenly hers were red. He did not understand how he could have taken her for Ygritte.

..."Ghost." Melisandre made the word a song. (song, as in spell like MMD says)

...The direwolf padded toward her. Wary, he stalked about her in a circle, sniffing. When she held out her hand he smelled that too

... At her throat, her ruby gleamed, a third eye glowing brighter than the others.

  • ADWD/Mel- Ch31: The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three-quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients. My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers.
    • ASOS/ Davos III: "With a smile and swirl of scarlet skirts, she was gone. Only her scent lingered after."
Edited by The Fattest Leech

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17 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Melisandre is using spells and glamours here- and Jon for one smells it. This isn't true affection. And Jon points out elsewhere that Ghost is likethe trees, the old gods, and then specifically says "not like Melisandre"...

Thank you, that's exactly what I was getting at :commie:

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The reason why I think ice and fire aren't two sides, but rather two types of magic is because I think the Children know how to work magic using every element. The hammer of waters as well as the flooding and washing away of the Arm of Dorne imply that the Children know how to work water and earth magic.

The black basalt ruins around Moat Cailin in the Neck and the bogs in the area suggest something destructive occurred there and that maybe more than one type of element was used. A meteor is not a new theory, and seems like a natural conclusion for the meteor to serve as the "hammer" along with a tsunami of water.

Since I suspect the Ironborn, and more currently the wildlings, knew/know how to work magic combining elements of water and air, the Children tried fighting them with the same elements. After water and earth failed they tried "air" by bringing about an extended winter. The extended winter may have enabled the Ironborn to work ice magic since it is a combination of elements, and created the first white walkers. The Children had hoped the extended winter would freeze the Ironborn's ships, but the white walkers simply walked across the frozen ice and raise their dead as wights, which seems connected to the tradition of drowning and resuscitating their faithful.

Lastly, the Children turned to fire magic for help after Harren the Black cut down the weirwood forests. The dragons burned Harren and his family, but the damage was already done. What remnant of Children were left are now holed up north of the Wall. 

 

Summary - The Children appeared to have worked magic using all four elements:

Water - Arm of Dorne

Earth - hammer of waters

Air - Extended winter

Fire - dragons

 

Summary - Mankind, including the Ironborn, the Rhoynar, the wildlings, and the followers of Rh'llor have all worked magic using (so far) three-four elements:

Water and Air: white walkers and the resuscitation of the dead as wights

Water and Air: the Rhoynar used water to try and flood the dragonlords, and air to carry "Garin's Curse" - the disease that causes greyscale

Fire: resurrection of the dead using the fiery breath - a religious practice of the followers of Rh'llor, prophecy using flames and glass candles to see. The practice of drinking the blue liquid called Shade of the Evening also allows for seers to see past, present, and future.

Fire: Euron, with Victarion's help plan to either kidnap Dany or steal her dragons or both.

Mystery magic: the House of Black and White's Faceless Men use the physical faces of the dead for disguises.

 

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I still regard it as something much more fundamental - but perhaps two sides of the same coin.

“I swear it by earth and water,” said the boy in green.

“I swear it by bronze and iron,” his sister said.

“We swear it by ice and fire,” they finished together

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7 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I still regard it as something much more fundamental - but perhaps two sides of the same coin.

“I swear it by earth and water,” said the boy in green.

“I swear it by bronze and iron,” his sister said.

“We swear it by ice and fire,” they finished together

The Reed's Creed mentions all four elements: earth, water, ice, and fire, as well as metals associated with mankind (bronze and iron). You see two sides of ice and fire, while I see two sides of Children versus Man.

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I've always thought it was more of a Yin Yang relationship.  We see some support for this from Mel, justifying her use of shadows as creatures of light.

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5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Melisandre is using spells and glamours here- and Jon for one smells it. This isn't true affection. And Jon points out elsewhere that Ghost is likethe trees, the old gods, and then specifically says "not like Melisandre".

Melisandre is Jon's perfumed senechal that he must watch out for. She has been using her powders and spells in heavier force while at the wall, as she notes when she describes how her supplies are low. Plus, the wall gives off it's own magic that she is vampire sucking off of.

ADDING:

  • ADWD/ Jon VI- Ch 28: In the shadow of the Wall, the direwolf brushed up against his fingers. For half a heartbeat the night came alive with a thousand smells, and Jon Snow heard the crackle of the crust breaking on a patch of old snow. Someone was behind him, he realized suddenly. Someone who smelled warm as a summer day.

When he turned he saw Ygritte.

...Surprise made him recoil from her. "Lady Melisandre." He took a step backwards. "I mistook you for someone else." At night all robes are grey. Yet suddenly hers were red. He did not understand how he could have taken her for Ygritte.

..."Ghost." Melisandre made the word a song. (song, as in spell like MMD says)

...The direwolf padded toward her. Wary, he stalked about her in a circle, sniffing. When she held out her hand he smelled that too

... At her throat, her ruby gleamed, a third eye glowing brighter than the others.

  • ADWD/Mel- Ch31: The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three-quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients. My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers.
    • ASOS/ Davos III: "With a smile and swirl of scarlet skirts, she was gone. Only her scent lingered after."

OK. I'm convinced.

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10 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

You see two sides of ice and fire, while I see two sides of Children versus Man.

Well this is the Song of Ice and Fire

:commie:

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Reverting briefly to twists...

A character we have completely overlooked is Osha.

In the book she escapes from Winterfell with the rest of the Scooby Gang but then heads off with Rickon for Skagos and hasn't been seen since, although Bran has a wolf dream of Shaggydog polishing off a unicorn, so presumably they made it.

In the mummers' version of course both have ceased to be.

However I do have a very clear recollection of an SSM in which GRRM was asked about whether the mummers' version might influence anything he wrote, to which he responded NO - thanks be to the Old Gods and the New for that - with the exception of Natalia Tena's portrayal of Osha and that as a result he wanted to develop her role in the book. Thus far we've seen nothing of that in the book, but it suggests that if we take both SSMs together the twist he's speaking of wasn't a random bolt from the blue, but rather that he's figured out what to do with Osha and Rickon.

 

 

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18 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Reverting briefly to twists...

A character we have completely overlooked is Osha.

In the book she escapes from Winterfell with the rest of the Scooby Gang but then heads off with Rickon for Skagos and hasn't been seen since, although Bran has a wolf dream of Shaggydog polishing off a unicorn, so presumably they made it.

In the mummers' version of course both have ceased to be.

However I do have a very clear recollection of an SSM in which GRRM was asked about whether the mummers' version might influence anything he wrote, to which he responded NO - thanks be to the Old Gods and the New for that - with the exception of Natalia Tena's portrayal of Osha and that as a result he wanted to develop her role in the book. Thus far we've seen nothing of that in the book, but it suggests that if we take both SSMs together the twist he's speaking of wasn't a random bolt from the blue, but rather that he's figured out what to do with Osha and Rickon.

I got the impression that he was impressed with Dumb and Dumber's development of the character and that he began to see his own character take on the attributes that the actress gave her. I think Rickon always had, and still has, a role to play, even if it's just a shaggy dog, but as that role plays out, the George will develop Osha a bit more. 

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4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I got the impression that he was impressed with Dumb and Dumber's development of the character and that he began to see his own character take on the attributes that the actress gave her. I think Rickon always had, and still has, a role to play, even if it's just a shaggy dog, but as that role plays out, the George will develop Osha a bit more. 

Indeed but the point is that this development or potential development hasn't been seen yet as Winds still hasn't appeared. 

While we're agreed on Rickon, I'm more inclined given GRRM's remarks about her, to see Osha at the centre of the "twist" bringing him into play and thereby underlining how the book and the mummers' version have completely parted company.

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Posted (edited)

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'm more inclined given GRRM's remarks about her, to see Osha at the centre of the "twist" bringing him into play

The timeline's a problem with this.  GRRM first started talking about this twist in the first half of 2015, and in February 2016 said:

Quote

I have decided to do that, yes. Will you know it? I don’t know. It’s fairly obvious because it is something that involves a couple of characters, one of whom is dead on the show, but not dead in the books. So the show can’t do it, because they have killed a character I have not killed.

So it seems this character was already dead in Show World, but not Book World, as of February 2016.

But Osha died on May 15, 2016, almost three months later, in the episode "Book of the Stranger."

It's possible GRRM, as executive producer, knew they were going to kill her, of course.  But in that scenario, I don't think he would have used the simple past tense (above in boldfaced) if he were talking about a future death.  He's historically quite cautious and painstaking in his choice of words about anything resembling a spoiler for either Book World or Show World.

Edited by JNR

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